![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 840 to 864 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by Denny on April 20, 2001, at 0:55:40
In reply to Pamela...Marilyn and everyone else........, posted by Leo on April 19, 2001, at 20:09:53
The point is I have gone off Effexor numerous times and felt so awful when I relasped into depression that I have to start taking it again! When I've stopped taking it cold turkey or tapered off too quickly I experience those withdrawl symptoms also: although I find them to be a minor annoyance compared to the anxiety, depression and irritability of mental illness! Dont be hoodwinked by critics who have unknown agendas.
Posted by Fish on April 20, 2001, at 7:59:27
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
Mercy, I feel for you in your dilemma. Although everyone can share their experiences, I think that is advise you need to get from your doctor. I'm sure there are other drugs out there with less severe side effects that could help you if you need them. As I tried to explain again in a prior email (of course it was misinterpreted and overanalysed as I think most messages are, picked apart to the extreme) sometimes, no matter what the side effects, drugs are necessary to make some people's lives bearable. I worry that some of these messages will deter people from getting the help they need. Again "I personally think" if medication is needed, you should get all the facts and keep trying until you get it right. Talk with your doctor about other medications (maybe some that have been on the market longer). I'm sure there is something else that will work if you really feel you need it. I am currently going through withdrawal of Effexor XR and it is one of the hardest things I have ever done. That is MY personal experience, as I can only speak for myself. You have to make your decision for yourself as well. Good Luck Fish
Posted by JAMMER on April 20, 2001, at 8:09:08
In reply to Pamela...Marilyn and everyone else........, posted by Leo on April 19, 2001, at 20:09:53
Leo, Nice piece of writing, and damn close to the real issues. What's key is "a good doctor". I didn't get much help from my primary care physician, and the pharacists I talked with were'nt much better. Luckily I'm working with another Dr. who treated my withdrawal, and worked with me on a weaning path that is much slower, but with a more consistant dosage, than what was provided by the previous folks. And so far I'm ok, not great, but ok.
Leo is absolutely correct, there are physical as well as "mental" withdrawal symptoms, that can cause real harm and suffering. If your not getting the help you need, keep looking. Struggling through this alone can be damaging.-Jammer
> Hello Pamela,
>
> The Doctors out there are responding predominantly to what the drug company reps are telling them. The reps are motivated by money, so their feedback to the doctor is going to be "slanted" as are some of the posts I've been reading. They are certainly not going to give the doctors all the facts concerning effexor. A drug company reps facts, when a drug starts presenting a problem, tend to become rationalizations. That in itself is a problem that is huge in the drug company industry. The doctors usually get the facts from their patients. Hence, the suggestion concerning taking a hand full of these posts and presenting them to the doctor. A good doctor will take a hard look when confronted with a multitude of symptoms and side effects in patients that all share commonalities. And then he has the pleasure of watching the drug rep back peddle when presented with the facts. As far as dosages go, I think effexor is an extremely volatile drug in any dosage. People who have been on it for any length of time need to discontinue it under the watchful eye of a good doctor. There are physical things that happen to the body during the withdrawal process that are in fact dangerous and could be life threatening. There are studies that confirm this. There is no established weaning process from the drug. I believe it was rushed to market for profit sake. And I go back to the fact the brain is uncharted territory. Introducing drugs that attempt to alter "state of mind" touted as offering relief for depression is some ones best guess. I'm not anti-drug but I am anti-carelessness. I have no doubt that depression and anxiety are the by-products of a serious chemical imbalance in the brain. Researchers haven't evened scratched the tip of the iceberg on this yet. Controlling the imbalance is the problem. The drug company’s answer is to throw it out there and see what happens. I don't dispute the fact that effexor is good for some but these people are in a MINORITY. And a small one at that. That's until they try to get off of it and then they join the majority. I also don't believe that these drug companies create drugs with the intent of hurting people. What I have a problem with is when they bury their heads in the sand or put blinders on when it comes to addressing the "aftermath" of their creations. Then they are hurting people. The doctors can't be blamed but they can be educated by their patients, not by the drug company reps.
>
> I've also looked at Marilyns posts...GOOD JOB. No one can dispute the facts!!!! Don't let up. Don't be to surprised when you see a segment on one of televisions renowned evening news magazines concerning effexor. I know, that at this time, there is some real heavy investigating going on.
>
> Also, keep tabs on your overall health. This will be important in the future.
>
> This post should bring them out of the woodwork.
> Can't wait to see the responses to this one.
>
> Regards,
> Leo
Posted by Pamela on April 20, 2001, at 8:26:50
In reply to Re: Pamela...Marilyn and everyone else........, posted by Denny on April 20, 2001, at 0:55:40
> The point is I have gone off Effexor numerous times and felt so awful when I relasped into depression that I have to start taking it again! When I've stopped taking it cold turkey or tapered off too quickly I experience those withdrawl symptoms also: although I find them to be a minor annoyance compared to the anxiety, depression and irritability of mental illness! Dont be hoodwinked by critics who have unknown agendas.
Hi Denny,
I haven't reponded to any of your previous threads, they all seem to say pretty much the same thing..... with the exception of the comment
"Don't be hoodwinked by critics who have unknown agendas >"
May I ask what that would mean, as it doesn't make any sense to me. Please give me an example of an "unknown agenda".
Thanks, Pamela
Posted by sl on April 20, 2001, at 12:49:35
In reply to effexor and drinking, posted by Jane on April 15, 2000, at 4:01:54
Posted by Snuffy on April 20, 2001, at 14:12:11
In reply to Re: effexor and drinking, posted by sl on April 20, 2001, at 12:49:35
>
> Copied from this website....
> http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/mcabinet/EffexorXR.html
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Can EFFEXOR XR be used safely in patients who consume alcohol?
>
> EFFEXOR XR has not been shown to increase the alcohol-induced impairment of mental and motor skills. Nevertheless, advise patients taking EFFEXOR XR to avoid alcohol.
> ---------------------------------------
>
> My personal thought: Alcohol dehydrates you. Effexor dehydrates you. Be VERY careful, if you get too dehydrated it can cause major problems and become a nasty cycle (you're dehydrated so you can't keep liquids down, so you throw up, so you get more dehydrated, so you can't keep liquids down....etc.).
>
> I just started on this stuff, right now I'm so damn shakey and dopey, I hate it. And I gotta double this dose on monday. :(
> Did ANYONE start directly at 75mgs, or did most of you folks start at 37.5?
>
> sl
>
> > I started taking effexor about 4 weeks ago (and still have the side effects of nausea, sleepiness, headaches and loss of appetite). I've tried aropax and zoloft (both which made me really sick) and doxepin for about a year (which didn't make me sick but didn't actually help_
> > Just wondering if anyone knows about the effects of drinking and taking certain drugs when on effexor. Is it too risky?
> > I drank the other weekend and just felt a bit worse than usual.
> > Thanks if anyone can helpI just started effexor @37.5mg. I'm to take that for 7 days then go to 75mg for 7 days then 150mg for 7 then 150mg twice per day. So far I haven't had any side effects ... fingers crossed!!
Posted by Pamela on April 20, 2001, at 14:31:54
In reply to Re: effexor and drinking, posted by sl on April 20, 2001, at 12:49:35
>
> Copied from this website....
> http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/mcabinet/EffexorXR.html
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Can EFFEXOR XR be used safely in patients who consume alcohol?
>
> EFFEXOR XR has not been shown to increase the alcohol-induced impairment of mental and motor skills. Nevertheless, advise patients taking EFFEXOR XR to avoid alcohol.
> ---------------------------------------
>
> My personal thought: Alcohol dehydrates you. Effexor dehydrates you. Be VERY careful, if you get too dehydrated it can cause major problems and become a nasty cycle (you're dehydrated so you can't keep liquids down, so you throw up, so you get more dehydrated, so you can't keep liquids down....etc.).
>
> I just started on this stuff, right now I'm so damn shakey and dopey, I hate it. And I gotta double this dose on monday. :(
> Did ANYONE start directly at 75mgs, or did most of you folks start at 37.5?
>
> sl
>
> > I started taking effexor about 4 weeks ago (and still have the side effects of nausea, sleepiness, headaches and loss of appetite). I've tried aropax and zoloft (both which made me really sick) and doxepin for about a year (which didn't make me sick but didn't actually help_
> > Just wondering if anyone knows about the effects of drinking and taking certain drugs when on effexor. Is it too risky?
> > I drank the other weekend and just felt a bit worse than usual.
> > Thanks if anyone can help
Hopefully (in my iopinion) all doctors start their patients off on the 37.5, I think that is why they made it. You may want to ask for the 37.5 Samples, doctors have hundreds. They also havr starter packs. One week 37.5 and then 75.
As for thr drinking, I am not much of a drinker but when I was on Effexor (full does), I wanted to "drink". Go figure...I felt that way on Prozac when I took it years ago for a short time, but I thought that was becasue it felt like speed to me.
I strongly suggest you do not drink while on any kind of mind altering drug. Opinion only!Good Luck,
Pamela
Posted by sl on April 20, 2001, at 14:57:48
In reply to Re: effexor and drinking, posted by Pamela on April 20, 2001, at 14:31:54
Posted by mstar on April 20, 2001, at 15:54:12
In reply to Leo It's Mercy! What woodwork? Huh? » Leo, posted by Mercy_M on April 20, 2001, at 14:37:49
Mercy,
Please don't let the negative remarks scare you off from effexor. Everyone reacts differently and everyone has different symptoms. Everyone hates being on medications, and they are scary, but deep down, if you really need them, you know it. I would hate that this board would make you give up on your recovery through antidepressants. TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR!!! These posts are not doctors! Not all doctors are great, but the decision to go off your medication should not be one to take lightly. Be good to yourself and don't be scared. I have had a positive experience so far. And if you have been ok so far, I would stick it out. Depression is a serious disease with serious consequences. Please continue to get help!
Best-
Ms
> > > Hi Leo,
> > >
> > > You have scared the hell out of me with your Effexor stories. I have been on 75mg for about 3 months. How do I start getting off this stuff. It has made me a much easier person to live with. I don't fly into crazy rages over the silliest little things. Is there another drug you could suggest? I'm scared to go off it and return to my hateful, angry, dark self. Can you share your insight with me?
> > >
> > > Mercy McMaster
> >
> >
> >
> > I SAID THEY'D COME OUT OF THE WOODWORK, DIDN'T I?
> > YA JUST GOTTA LOVE THESE GUYS.
> Leo I'm not sure what you mean about the whole woodwork thing. I just found this site lastnight from my sympatico search engine. I live in Western Canada and Have only started EFXR 3 months ago. About the time you started to taper off. The reason I have asked for your guidance is because you make a lot of posts and your reaction to the drug scared me. This is serious to me. It is not a stupid joke or a flake from whatever woodworks you think I came out of. My depression was triggered by my fathers violent death 7 years ago and what seemed to be a month long bout of PMS.(Every DAMN Month!) I was slowly and meanly lashing out at all those who I'm supposed to love. I still feel depressed on the EFXR but the anger and rage has subsided. I'm also taking Xanax for the occasional PMS outbreaks. I have totally gone from feeling like things are better to "Oh my god! Have I further screwed myself by taking this stuff. I totally trusted my Doctor to know what I needed. He is the first Doctor that never just dismissed my symptoms to foolishness. He said we could work on this problem together. I'm so upset to find all these side effects that result from trying to get off the effexor. What dosage were you on befor you decided to stop? I am for real and can prove it if you e-mail me. Please don't dismiss me as foolish. I need to know how to withdraw off this med. I'm a little hesitant to share my findings with my doctor. I need to handle this myself. Try something herbal or homeopathic. Just get back to me. Thanx, Mercy McMaster
>
> mercy_mcmaster@alberta.com
Posted by Anxious-Man on April 20, 2001, at 17:29:45
In reply to Effexor and Klonapin, posted by Anxious-Man on April 19, 2001, at 18:20:50
Hi Mercy,
I don't understand why some people here have to be rude or arrogant or dismissive. The comments about 'coming out of the woodwork'...What? It's just uncalled for and gauche.
And, not all doctors are reliable. Think about this, and I don't want to scare you, but...what is the doctor's interest in your recovery? What is his/her stake in all of this? The oath that they take? Why would the doc. want you to recover at all? To lose a patient? To lose income? Also, the majority of these doctors use us, in ways, like guinea pigs. They have no idea of the actual effects because they've never experienced them. How can they be that sympathetic? They certainly can't be empathetic. This is why we need to share our information as the people who ACTUALLY have to deal with the consequences and effects. I hope that things work out for you.
I, myself, am just starting Effexor. My doctor told me to take the 37.5mg per day. I agreed. I am instead taking 18.75mg per day. I want to build up slowly. I don't want to have panic attacks and hallucinations as I did with Prozac. Also, I take 3mg of Klonapin per day (Have for a while). So, we'll see what happens.
Best of luck to you,
Anxious-Man
Posted by Pamela on April 20, 2001, at 18:41:01
In reply to Regarding: Woodworking!!! This is for Mercy..., posted by Anxious-Man on April 20, 2001, at 17:29:45
> Hi Mercy,
> I don't understand why some people here have to be rude or arrogant or dismissive. The comments about 'coming out of the woodwork'...What? It's just uncalled for and gauche.
> And, not all doctors are reliable. Think about this, and I don't want to scare you, but...what is the doctor's interest in your recovery? What is his/her stake in all of this? The oath that they take? Why would the doc. want you to recover at all? To lose a patient? To lose income? Also, the majority of these doctors use us, in ways, like guinea pigs. They have no idea of the actual effects because they've never experienced them. How can they be that sympathetic? They certainly can't be empathetic. This is why we need to share our information as the people who ACTUALLY have to deal with the consequences and effects. I hope that things work out for you.
> I, myself, am just starting Effexor. My doctor told me to take the 37.5mg per day. I agreed. I am instead taking 18.75mg per day. I want to build up slowly. I don't want to have panic attacks and hallucinations as I did with Prozac. Also, I take 3mg of Klonapin per day (Have for a while). So, we'll see what happens.
> Best of luck to you,
> Anxious-ManAnxious-Man,
Though I don't feel the need to defend Leo, as he has been a great help to me and probably many others. You might consider going back and reading some of his prior threads.
He bases his threads on "facts" and "personal" experience and I don't think it is meant to sound arrogant.
What I believe he meant by "they are coming out of the woodwork" is that the drug companies plant people on this site to try and diffuse what us "sufferers" are going through. Food for thought. I am sure he meant no offense.
Thanks,
Pamela
Posted by Leo on April 20, 2001, at 20:22:00
In reply to Leo It's Mercy! What woodwork? Huh? » Leo, posted by Mercy_M on April 20, 2001, at 14:37:49
Mercy,
I do apologize for my response to your post. I have, in the past, been the subject of "damage control" by others on this site that have more than just a users agenda. Quite honestly, I did not take your post seriously, hence my response. Those of us that have been posting here for a while have a better understanding of where I was coming from. I am sorry if I offended you.
Let's start over. First, my posts, as well as the others are not by any means focused on scaring anybody. The are ment to create awareness. We are all people who have had different experiences using the drug. The majority of the experiences have been unfavorable, many to the extreme. The posts speak for themselves. There are thousands of people around the world on this drug. In a minority of these patients the drug has a positive effect. It did for me when I first started taking it 5 years ago. However, this positive effect was short lived and other problems began to arise. The depression was abated for a short period of time. Then it started sneaking back into my daily routine. Now the doctor’s answer to this was to increase the dosage. I didn't take his advice and maintained the dose originally prescribed. I lived on the edge with depression. Some days were good, others bad. Along with this came some other "symptoms" that did not exist prior to taking effexor. Major fatigue, a nasty disposition, long periods of sleep followed by even longer periods of sleeplessness, severely aching muscles and a general apathetic approach to daily living. I didn't care if I got up and dressed. I didn't care if the bills didn't get paid and so on. And, as I'm on the drug, I seem to begin to further retreat into myself and from the outside world. Not good for what I do. I saw everything that was going on. I knew it and didn't care. And I had no viable reason to be this way. So I decided to make some changes to improve my life. One was to get off the effexor. You can read my previous posts concerning that experience. As I weaned off the drug, for what took almost an entire year, I started feeling much better. I was coming back to life. During the weaning process I was on and off the drug because of the severity of the withdrawal. And, quite honestly, the withdrawal scared the hell out of me. I had know idea what was going on. I thought that something else was wrong with me. I has no clue about the withdrawal effects that surrounded effexor. As I was on and off of the drug during the weaning process I noticed that the "depression" seemed more intense when taking the drug than when not, however, the lessoned depression was superceded by the severe withdrawal. Now that I am completely off the drug I feel fantastic. I'm having fun. No depression, no anxiety, no fear, no apathy, no nothing. And I see the same trend in hundreds of posts on the internet from people who have broken away from this drug.
Now lets talk about your concerns. First, I'm not a doctor and would not ever suggest a medication to replace something else.
Second, if the effexor has abated all the things you have expressed.........why change now?
What you need to be well aware of is the stealthiness of the drug. Reading these posts will help you recognize when the drug is hurting you more than helping you. This trend usually begins to be recognizable right around the six-month mark of taking the drug and then there appears to be a fast relapse back to the emotions that triggered the medication in the first place.
Again, the doctor’s response to this is to increase the dosage. More depression....more medication. This might be the answer with other meds out there but I don't think it applies to effexor.The third thing your are going to have to deal with are the short and long-term effects the drug has on your body. This, in all cases I have researched, is inescapable. The drug will have a negative effect on your physical body.
Finally, your will have withdrawal effects. To get an idea of what to expect, miss one or two doses of the medication and you'll get a good taste of the withdrawal.
If you are having problems with your doctor understanding your fear, print out a handful of these posts and take them to him. If he does not respond in a way that makes your feel better about the medication....find a new doctor. Do not attempt to stop taking this medication without medical supervision. There is a weaning process that must be planned and followed. And it's good to have a doctor you trust to call if
the withdrawal becomes frightening as it has with most of us.Again, I am heartily sorry for my original response to your post and hope that this has helped you in some way
Regards,
Leo
Posted by Anxious-Man on April 20, 2001, at 21:53:42
In reply to Re: Regarding: Woodworking!!! This is for Mercy..., posted by Pamela on April 20, 2001, at 18:41:01
Hi Pamela,
I have not read, or rather, have read few of Leo's posts. It's hard to keep up with who is who. Plus, I am new to this site. I understand what you're saying. It just seemed to me that Mercy was hurt by those comments. I felt a need to...I dunno, somehow rectify the situation. I mean no offence to anyone. I appreciate all of the comments from everyone. They really do help. Especially in that area of making one feel that they're not alone in this.
As I had said previously, I work for a bio-pharm corp. I'm no sales rep. But, I know how they work. I don't know about site infiltration. That seems a bit odd. These people are paid well. I don't know whether or not they infiltrate the site. Actually, I doubt it. It would seem to me pretty unprofitable. Maybe they do. I dunno. Seems unlikely though.
heart-Anxious-Man
Posted by Leo on April 20, 2001, at 22:03:17
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
This applies to everyone....both men and women.
If it has not already been done have your doctor check your thyroid function. It's a simple blood test. HYPO-thyroidism is a possible strong link to depressive illness.Regards,
Leo
Posted by CPDing on April 21, 2001, at 0:14:34
In reply to Re: Leo It's Mercy! What woodwork? Huh?, posted by mstar on April 20, 2001, at 15:54:12
I stumbled across this board many months ago in searching for Effexor information, but not posting anything. My father who is Type 2 diabetic and some researchers have started using low dosages of Effexor for numbness and tingling in the feet and hands with much success. So I wanted more information. Leo might want to jump to another board for that one.
I have had success with Effexor, and I thought I would post finally just as another story with information to share. We are all unique and not every drug will work the same on everyone. I too had similar side effect problems as posted by others. Against my doctors advise, I tried to stop cold turkey...BIG MISTAKE! The horror stories are true about withdrawing, but I knew that before I took the drug. I knew the side effects of long-term use before I took the drug. I still tried it, because if you are reading this and you REALLY have suffered from depression YOU know how much you just want to feel "normal" again. Whatever "normal" is anyway.
I have had the benefits of a well-informed doctor and an equally informed and caring psychotherapist. We talk regularly about my progress. I have been treated for some time now and I have been through the withdraw process twice successfully and once as mentioned unsuccessfully while trying different dosages.
I do know that if your thyroid is not in check when taking this medication it can produce very strange side effects, but again I knew that before I started taking it (medically documented.) I had my thyroid re-checked and my medication adjusted. When I find the documentation, I will pass it along to those who are interested.
I guess this post is to say thank you to those of you who have researched and posted so much information. I do feel however, that those of us who have had success with Effexor should be able to post and be heard as well.
Just like the "common" cold has many remedies both natural and man-made that work great, none of them is a cure-all and not all of them work the same on everybody. I have a few natural remedies that I swear by for a cold, but friends of mine say the remedies offer them no relief. I wont' stop my treatment because it didn't work for them, but I won't force it on anyone either. I know the common cold isn't as serious a condition as depression, but I do know that being a well-informed consumer is the best way to defend yourself and get the care you need.
Be forward and honest with your healthcare provider. Ask serious questions, you'd be surprised how many people don't. Demand to be heard they will listen! Your doctor doesn't have all the answers either they aren't Gods; educate him/her with what you found. When they see your interest in YOUR OWN health, not just a quick fix, they WILL listen, because if they don't they know what the consequences can be.
Best Wishes to all who are searching for for help, this is a great way to be informed.
Posted by Pamela on April 21, 2001, at 0:27:17
In reply to Re: Regarding: Woodworking!!! This is for Mercy... » Pamela, posted by Anxious-Man on April 20, 2001, at 21:53:42
> Hi Pamela,
> I have not read, or rather, have read few of Leo's posts. It's hard to keep up with who is who. Plus, I am new to this site. I understand what you're saying. It just seemed to me that Mercy was hurt by those comments. I felt a need to...I dunno, somehow rectify the situation. I mean no offence to anyone. I appreciate all of the comments from everyone. They really do help. Especially in that area of making one feel that they're not alone in this.
> As I had said previously, I work for a bio-pharm corp. I'm no sales rep. But, I know how they work. I don't know about site infiltration. That seems a bit odd. These people are paid well. I don't know whether or not they infiltrate the site. Actually, I doubt it. It would seem to me pretty unprofitable. Maybe they do. I dunno. Seems unlikely though.
> heart-Anxious-ManAnxious Man,
Thanks for the respomse. Please be sure and read Leo's apology to Mercy.
The site has it's ups and downs try to stay with the ups, even though they may seem like downs. HA
Did that make any sense?Anyway, stay with people you feel supported by... not attacked, (and I don't mean Leo's thread) I mean the people who disallow what you are going through. None of us are Dr's.(except Dr. Bob) and all we have is our experiences.
Take Care, Talk to ya soon.
Pamela
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2001, at 2:13:36
In reply to Re: Regarding: Woodworking!!! This is for Mercy..., posted by Pamela on April 20, 2001, at 18:41:01
> the drug companies plant people on this site to try and diffuse what us "sufferers" are going through.
Please refrain from making accusations, especially unfounded ones. Do you have evidence to support the above? If so, please let me know, I would of course be interested. In the meantime I'm going to try again to block you from posting.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups from others regarding civility or being blocked, if not redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, may be deleted.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2001, at 2:16:51
In reply to Mercy » Mercy_M, posted by Leo on April 20, 2001, at 20:22:00
> The majority of the experiences have been unfavorable
> In a minority of these patients the drug has a positive effect.
> The drug will have a negative effect on your physical body.
> Finally, your will have withdrawal effects.
Please refrain from making unjustified generalizations and definitive predictions of the future. Otherwise, I'll need to try to block you from posting. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility or being blocked, if not redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, may be deleted.
Posted by Mercy_M on April 21, 2001, at 19:27:34
In reply to Re: please inform rather than misinform » Leo, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2001, at 2:16:51
I just want to say thank you to Leo for appologizing to me for dismissing me as an undercover drug company med infiltrator. I never meant to get him blocked from posting in the future. I understand that his EFXR experiences are just that HIS! He is a great asset to this site. All of you need to realize that the postings on this site can scare rather than inform. It is also a very helpful site, and I find that any of the postings I've read a great help. I'm sorry if I have upset the natural order of things on this message board. Take care all.
Mercy McMaster
Posted by Marilyn on April 22, 2001, at 5:37:20
In reply to Re: starting effexor... keep posting.. success/dosage?, posted by lg on October 26, 1999, at 19:09:26
The “Chemical Imbalance” is Born
In 1963, a time in U.S. psychopharmacological infancy, LIFE magazine introduced the broad public to the concept of brain chemical imbalances. Psychiatrists had been experimenting with drugs, particularly LSD, and astounding themselves at the wide variety of behaviors, emotions, and personality changes they could induce in someone with only a tiny spec of the drug. A hypothesis was born out this. If such wide variations in behavior could be made with such a small amount of a drug, which no doubt affected the brain, then any variations from “normal” behavior must be due to extremely fine changes in brain chemistry. The idea that some other external cause of behavioral disturbance could exist seemed to be discarded. Brain chemistry simply needed to be “balanced.” Psychologists such as B.F. Skinner said that scientists could and should control human behavior and predicted that in the future an individuals mood, emotions, and motivation would be maintained at any desired level through the use of drugs.
In 1967, psychiatrist Nathan Klien, an MK-Ultra participant, made a chilling prediction which showed just how much psychiatry wanted to use drugs for behavior control, not for “treating mental illness.” Klien had been studying the effects of psychiatric drugs on “normal humans” and reported that “...the present breadth of drug use may be almost trivial when we compare it to the possible numbers of chemical substances that will be available for the control of selective aspects of man’s life by the year 2000...if we accept the position that human mood, motivation, and emotion are reflections of a neurochemical state of the brain, then drugs can provide a simple, rapid, expedient means to produce any desired neurochemical state we wish. The sooner that we cease to confuse scientific and moral statements about drug use, the sooner we can consider the types of neurochemical states that we wish to provide for people.” [EIR, British Psychiatry: From Eugenics to Assassination, Anton Chaitkin, October 7, 1994, p.39]
Psychiatrists had decided they would provide the public with the types of chemical personality they saw fit. What would follow in the years to come would be the medicalization of any behavior psychiatry deemed “inappropriate.”
As David Kaiser had noted, psychiatrists cannot measure levels of neurotransmitters in the brain in the way doctors can measure sugar levels in a diabetic patient. The question must be asked then, how can you balance or adjust something which cannot be measured? More importantly, does an actual chemical imbalance exist? Parents are told routinely that children given an ADD diagnosis have a chemical imbalance and that amphetaminelike drugs will balance the child's brain chemistry.
Thomas J. Moore, Senior Fellow in Health Policy at George Washington University Medical Center writes that while some "claim hyperactivity in children is a ‘biochemical imbalance’...researchers cannot identify which chemicals...or find abnormal levels" in children. "The chemical imbalance theory has not been established by scientific evidence." [Thomas J. Moore, Prescription for Disaster, 1998, p.22]
It has been pointed out by psychiatrists themselves that the downfall of psychiatric diagnosis is that psychiatrists never look beyond symptoms. If a child is "hyperactive" - a symptom - the psychiatrists say, "He has hyperactivity!" Psychiatrist Sidney Walker says this is like telling your doctor you have a bad cough - a symptom - and getting a "diagnosis" of "coughing disorder", without finding out if the cough is caused from a cold, lung cancer, or tuberculosis. [Sidney Walker, The Hyperactivity Hoax, 1998 p. 6]
Psychiatrists never look beyond "symptoms", they merely classify symptoms as the "disease." Dr. Mary Ann Block says she hates to see children given labels of “hyperactivity” or “attention deficit disorder.” In fact, she refuses to use such labels. She says, “How sad it is to see children drugged while their underlying health problems go untreated.” [Mary Ann Block, No More Ritalin, Treating ADHD Without Drugs, 1996 p.49]
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/HiddenSideOfPsychiatry.htm
Marilyn
Posted by Marilyn on April 22, 2001, at 5:55:51
In reply to More information (1), posted by Marilyn on April 22, 2001, at 5:37:20
Biochemical Imbalance
If you don't have a biochemical imbalance before starting Prozac, you certainly will have one once you are on it! Prozac has been shown to have drastic effects on the brain's serotonergic system. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter, or chemical messenger, that normally connects to receptor sites and fires nerves. Prozac prevents serotonin from being removed from the active place where it's working in the brain. It keeps the sparks alive longer, and as a result, a lot of excess firing takes place. The brain doesn't like all the overstimulation and eliminates 30-40 percent or more of receptors. The brain, in effect, is saying, I'm not going to have receptors for all this serotonin. It's a compensatory mechanism for the overstimulation. Receptors can be compared to catcher's mitts. The balls being thrown are like serotonin. After awhile the brain just eliminates its catcher's mitts. It says, I'm catching too much serotonin. I'm going to get rid of my catcher's mitts.
Eli Lilly knew about the disappearance of receptors from their laboratory experiments. What they failed to study, however, was whether or not receptors ever come back. The experiment, which would have been simple to perform, could have consisted of stopping the drug, waiting a couple of weeks, sacrificing some of the animals , and then seeing if their brains had come back to normal . The information could also have been indirectly gleaned from performing spinal taps on human beings before and after they had taken Prozac, to see if the breakdown products indicated that the brain returns to normal . Neither of these approaches were ever attempted. Obviously, Lilly is not concerned with this issue.
Dependence
Since Prozac's release, millions of Americans have come to depend on it and to believe that their lives are better because of it. Concerning this reality, Breggin says:
"First of all, I don't think Prozac should have been approved. But now that it's out there it shouldn't be taken away from anybody who thinks that it's helping them. People should be warned, however, about its dangerous effects. If, for example, Joseph Wesbecker committed a mass murder while on Prozac, then we're weighing the potential good of the drug against some real disasters.
"The other issue to look at is why people like to take drugs. The fact that so many people feel helped by this drug doesn't necessarily mean you or I would feel helped.
"Evidence from the FDA trials suggests that this is a very poor drug. Even a New York Times article recently said that follow-up studies show Prozac as not very effective.
"But when you give something to people and tell them it's a miracle, they'll believe it. . . Also, the drug does have stimulant effects. And while we no longer believe that stimulants should be given for depression, certainly people can feel like it's helping them. " [14)
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/HiddenSideOfPsychiatry.htm
Marilyn
Posted by pandora on April 22, 2001, at 16:27:28
In reply to More information (2), posted by Marilyn on April 22, 2001, at 5:55:51
< < Prozac prevents serotonin from being removed from the active place where it's working in the brain. It keeps the sparks alive longer, and as a result, a lot of excess firing takes place. The brain doesn't like all the overstimulation and eliminates 30-40 percent or more of receptors. The brain, in effect, is saying, I'm not going to have receptors for all this serotonin. It's a compensatory mechanism for the overstimulation. > >
Wouldn't this be true for all SSRIs? (and similarly true on other NT systems when an SNRI or SDRI is used?)
Posted by Denny on April 23, 2001, at 15:00:13
In reply to Mercy » Mercy_M, posted by Leo on April 20, 2001, at 20:22:00
> Mercy,
>
> > What you need to be well aware of is the stealthiness of the drug. Reading these posts will help you recognize when the drug is hurting you more than helping you. This trend usually begins to be recognizable right around the six-month mark of taking the drug and then there appears to be a fast relapse back to the emotions that triggered the medication in the first place.
> Again, the doctor’s response to this is to increase the dosage. More depression....more medication. This might be the answer with other meds out there but I don't think it applies to effexor.
>
> Leo is wrong or misleading you about Effexor. I've been on 75 mg a day for 5 years and have never suffered an emotional relapse or needed to increase the dosage! In fact I was taking 37.5 mgs for awhile but had to increase the dosage when the anxiety returned. I find the withdrawl symptoms to be mild when you taper off slowly- even when I've gone off cold turkey i can withstand the socalled "brain shivers" for several days until I get annoyed with them. My brother has never even experienced withdrawl or any side-effects and is back on 75 mg again. Why do I go off it so many times if "I Love Effexor" so much? Because I hope that someday through the right combination of healthfood store supplements, exercise, meditation and normal behaviour I'll beable to go thru life without taking any psychiatric meds again. I would miss those incredible dreams thought!
Posted by jerz on April 23, 2001, at 16:42:12
In reply to Hi Goofy and Pamela - update on my progress, posted by Fish on April 19, 2001, at 8:49:36
> Hi Goofy and Pamela ... both of you were so helpful in giving me information on how to wean and what to expect. It is almost three weeks now. I am down to 18 mg a day. It's been rough, side effects are bad at the end of the day, but I am able to function (work, being mom and student). I am very tired. Seem to want to sleep all the time. Feel like I ran a marathon by the end of the day, but my side effects are milder .... I feel like I have a brain again! And I have actually been cold (sweating has decreased dramatically). I am trying to be patient with decreasing dosage. I think I went from 37.5 to 18 mg too quickly. Only gave it a week ... side effect really bad for a few days. Anyway, again thank you for your support. How are you two doing? Fish
Fish--- just curious as to how you're doing with the withdrawal. I went from 9+ mg to 4+ today and so far, have moderate vertigo and fairly severe headache. Hopefully it won't last for too many days. My daughter went from 18 down to 9+ today and experienced headache and nausea, but not bad. We plan to stay on our new doses for 7 days and then taper again.
Let us know how it's going for you. thanks.
Jerz
Posted by DavidHIFI on April 23, 2001, at 19:15:38
In reply to Re: effexor and drinking, posted by sl on April 20, 2001, at 12:49:35
I just started on this stuff, right now I'm so damn shakey and dopey, I hate it. And I gotta double this dose on monday. :(
> Did ANYONE start directly at 75mgs, or did most of you folks start at 37.5?
>
> sl
As I said in previous posts, I too am just starting out on Effexor XR and I have decided to stay at 37.5 for the time being. I did not take the 75's in the starter kit requesting, instead that my Dr. give me a perscription for 37.5. I'm just about out of the initial 4 week (plus the one starter week) and although I almost upped it to 75, I've decided to take it real slow. My condition is bearable and I feel that I can take my time with this stuff at the low dosage and I can always increase to the 75. If you're having side fx, stay at 37.5 until you feel they're gone or at least bearable. My (fairly typical, see previous posts) side fx are almost all gone so don't be in a hurry. BTW, just having the sun finally come out after a really long winter (I'm in Upstate NY) has done as much as doubling the dose,Good Luck.
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