![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by A. N. on April 10, 2001, at 22:54:09
I can still think, I'm smart (I am working on a PhD right now); however, I feel sick every day and attribute this to heavy ecstacy use by myself for a six month period nearly three years ago. Almost a year after I stop doing ecstacy, I started to have mild symptoms. I general ache in my head. Problems concentrating while I was reading. I would only feel sick some of the time. However, over a six month period the symptoms got worse. I feel sick almost every moment that I am awake. When I sit in an armchair trying to relax, I feel different parts of my brain pulsing in very uncomfortable ways. I squeeze my hands against my head to try and make the discomfort go away but it persists. When I drive my car, I'm nervous that I'm going to run a red light as I have this feeling that I'm looking up the road too far or not paying attention to the closest traffic light. THe whole time my head aching. My short term memory is fucked. I forget what I was thinking of doing two seconds earlier and then remember and forget again sometimes several times. I feel increased levels of anxiety that I cannot control over situations that previously I felt very comfortable about. When I do vigourous physical activity, the general feeling of unwell gets worse. I can still think about complex concepts and my ability to cope with simple everyday situations has become hindered. I am trying to finds others who are feeling the same way as I am. I am also looking for potential treatments (if any exist). Please help.
Posted by sweetmarie on April 11, 2001, at 4:50:10
In reply to I have permanent brain damage from ecstacy use, posted by A. N. on April 10, 2001, at 22:54:09
> I can still think, I'm smart (I am working on a PhD right now); however, I feel sick every day and attribute this to heavy ecstacy use by myself for a six month period nearly three years ago. Almost a year after I stop doing ecstacy, I started to have mild symptoms. I general ache in my head. Problems concentrating while I was reading. I would only feel sick some of the time. However, over a six month period the symptoms got worse. I feel sick almost every moment that I am awake. When I sit in an armchair trying to relax, I feel different parts of my brain pulsing in very uncomfortable ways. I squeeze my hands against my head to try and make the discomfort go away but it persists. When I drive my car, I'm nervous that I'm going to run a red light as I have this feeling that I'm looking up the road too far or not paying attention to the closest traffic light. THe whole time my head aching. My short term memory is fucked. I forget what I was thinking of doing two seconds earlier and then remember and forget again sometimes several times. I feel increased levels of anxiety that I cannot control over situations that previously I felt very comfortable about. When I do vigourous physical activity, the general feeling of unwell gets worse. I can still think about complex concepts and my ability to cope with simple everyday situations has become hindered. I am trying to finds others who are feeling the same way as I am. I am also looking for potential treatments (if any exist). Please help.
Hi,
I`ve just read your post.
My friend has all the symptoms that you describe. She gets headaches, feels sick, and generally all the stuff you mention. She also gets `spinning thoughts`, and can`t control them. Her concentration is very poor, and over the past 4 years has basically been extremely poorly.
The reason I`m writing about her is that she spent a long time taking a lot of E (over a year I think). None of her psychiatrists have a clue what the matter is with her - she`s been variously diagnosed as having `atypical depression`, `borderline personality disorder` and others I can`t remember. She`s had brain scans and other physical tests, which have all found her in good physical health. Her present psychiatrist has actually admitted that he doesn`t know what is wrong with her. It sounds to me like she may be suffering the effects of a lot of ecstacy use.
However, apart from your description of your symptoms being the first thing I have read that fits her condition (and I`ll be telling her as soon as I can), I CAN say that she benefited from Nardil (an MAOI). She`s been on it 3 times. The first time, she took herself off it as she was so well, and when the symptoms reappeared, she went back on it. Again, it was successful. Having discontinued it for the 2nd time, it didn`t work again. However, these details are irrelevant. What I`m saying is that she did become well on Nardil, and maybe a similar medication would help you - there is more than one MAOI you can try.
It may not be the same for you, but it has to be worth a try. But, DON`T (and I stress this) take my word for this, whatever you do. What she has and what you have may be totally different things. All I`m saying is that they sound very similar, and it therefore COULD be the case that both conditions are E-related. I`m very reluctant to commit myself to any `rock-solid` comparisons (I think you`ll know what I`m saying).
Hope that this is of some help.
Anna.
Posted by CraigF on April 12, 2001, at 7:01:42
In reply to Re: brain damage from ecstacy use - response » A. N., posted by sweetmarie on April 11, 2001, at 4:50:10
I plan on forwarding this information (w/out any referrence to names, of course) to some friends of mine. So many people think Ecstacy is harmless, but I have always taken it on a reserved basis as it seems to affect my depression and anxiety, which my friends don't seem to have a problem with.
I hope you find the right medication and that your symptoms go away. I have to believe that with all the seretonergic drugs out there that something will help; but this story is truly horrifying.
Posted by sweetmarie on April 12, 2001, at 14:21:09
In reply to this is horrifying!, posted by CraigF on April 12, 2001, at 7:01:42
> I plan on forwarding this information (w/out any referrence to names, of course) to some friends of mine. So many people think Ecstacy is harmless, but I have always taken it on a reserved basis as it seems to affect my depression and anxiety, which my friends don't seem to have a problem with.
>
> I hope you find the right medication and that your symptoms go away. I have to believe that with all the seretonergic drugs out there that something will help; but this story is truly horrifying.
I`d just like to emphasise that the friend I mentioned with the same symptoms as A.N. hasn`t actually been told what her illness is. She`s always suspected that it`s to do with her excessive ecstacy use, but psychiatrists haven`t picked up on what the illness is. Furthermore, they`ve actually told her that they don`t have a clue what is wrong with her.I`m not saying that her illness is to due to excessive E use, but I have to say that her symptoms are just about identical to those of A.N. There is certainly something here that is more than a coincidence.
When I was in hospital, there was a bloke who had taken a lot of acid in his early 20s, and had developed quite a bad case of psychosis. He heard voices in his head, was very paranoid (thought that people were going to kill him etc.). I know that it is not necessarily the case that people who have used a lot of drugs (of the illegal kind), develop mental illness, but it can happen, and does happen more than we perhaps realise.
It`s worth passing this info to your friends.Anna.
Posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 0:56:15
In reply to Re: this is horrifying! - response to Craig » CraigF, posted by sweetmarie on April 12, 2001, at 14:21:09
giving in to this hysterical bullshit. A few people died and developed all sorts of horrible symptoms during SSRI trials. Does that mean it happens to everybody? no.
First of all, assuming the symptoms are related to MDMA use, they are happening to two people of of countless numbers of users. With any drug there will be bad reactions. That doesn't mean everybody has one.
Also, how do you know MDMA actually caused the problems? I know many heavy users who never complain of any ill effects from using ecstasy. On the other hand, ecstasy could very well be causing the symptoms. The bottom line is we don't know. So please don't start a crusade against ecstasy use based on misinformation.
Posted by sweetmarie on April 14, 2001, at 6:01:18
In reply to it's even more horrifying that you're....., posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 0:56:15
> giving in to this hysterical bullshit. A few people died and developed all sorts of horrible symptoms during SSRI trials. Does that mean it happens to everybody? no.
I don`t know why you think that I`m giving into `hysterical bullshit`. The post by A.N. was the first I`d ever read about possible detrimental effects of Ecstacy. If you think that I`m somehow taking the moral high ground against recreational drug use, then you`re wrong (I`m not in a position to do this, having indulged myself over the years). The symptoms described matched those of my friend, who has been going out of her mind with worry about what on earth is wrong with her, and there seemed to be similarities. That`s all I was saying. >
> First of all, assuming the symptoms are related to MDMA use, they are happening to two people of of countless numbers of users. With any drug there will be bad reactions. That doesn't mean everybody has one.
I wasn`t saying that.
> Also, how do you know MDMA actually caused the problems?
I don`t. I thought I`d made that clear.
I know many heavy users who never complain of any ill effects from using ecstasy.
Me, too.
On the other hand, ecstasy could very well be causing the symptoms. The bottom line is we don't know. So please don't start a crusade against ecstasy use based on misinformation.
I feel quite upset that you think I`m starting some kind of `crusade`. For a start, I`m not one to do this sort of thing, and secondly, I don`t have enough facts to do so. I hoped that I`d made this clear in my post. A `crusade` is furthest from my mind - in fact, the way I feel most of the time, I couldn`t co-ordinate a vicar`s tea party.
I`m sorry if my remarks were reconstrued - I probably should have kept quiet.
Anna.
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 14, 2001, at 7:13:11
In reply to it's even more horrifying that you're....., posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 0:56:15
The majority of E's these days don't actually contain MDMA at all, or hardly any!!!
Just thought I'd drop that in!!!!
Nikki
> giving in to this hysterical bullshit. A few people died and developed all sorts of horrible symptoms during SSRI trials. Does that mean it happens to everybody? no.
>
> First of all, assuming the symptoms are related to MDMA use, they are happening to two people of of countless numbers of users. With any drug there will be bad reactions. That doesn't mean everybody has one.
>
> Also, how do you know MDMA actually caused the problems? I know many heavy users who never complain of any ill effects from using ecstasy. On the other hand, ecstasy could very well be causing the symptoms. The bottom line is we don't know. So please don't start a crusade against ecstasy use based on misinformation.
Posted by Noa on April 14, 2001, at 12:16:48
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying that you're..... » mikes, posted by NikkiT2 on April 14, 2001, at 7:13:11
This isn't the first time someone has posted this kind of experience here at babble (search the archives). It sure made an impression on me when I first read about it and would certainly give me pause were I tempted to use E.
One big difference between medications and street drugs like E is that you have no idea what quality or potency you are actually getting with street drugs, or what else has been mixed in, nor are you taking it under a doctor's care, monitoring dosing and effects.
Posted by SLS on April 14, 2001, at 12:58:36
In reply to it's even more horrifying that you're....., posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 0:56:15
Dear Mikes,
> giving in to this hysterical bullshit.> The bottom line is we don't know. So please don't start a crusade against ecstasy use based on misinformation.
I don’t think that’s very nice to say. Any of us who remain the unwitting naïve tools of the medical establishment can find hundreds and hundreds of stories and documentation that MDMA produces long-term changes in cognition, behavior, and damages nerve structures crucial for functional neurotransmission. I can understand how anyone could develop a passionate disapproval of its use.It is not hysterical bullshit.
I’ll reserve the right to maintain an open mind.
- Scott
Posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 13:38:40
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying ... response to mike » mikes, posted by sweetmarie on April 14, 2001, at 6:01:18
NikkiT2- Unfortunately that is a consequence of E being illegal. If it was legal or at least more available for study, those problems would go away and we would possibly even have a better idea about what was going on with A. N.
sweetmarie- I wasn't attacking you or anyone else personally, I was just against the spread of misinformation. How could I be mad at you just for saying something? I just hit the reply button, I wasn't even responding to your post so much as all of the posts collectively. You shouldn't have kept quiet, your remarks are intelligent and well thought out.
> > giving in to this hysterical bullshit. A few people died and developed all sorts of horrible symptoms during SSRI trials. Does that mean it happens to everybody? no.
>
> I don`t know why you think that I`m giving into `hysterical bullshit`. The post by A.N. was the first I`d ever read about possible detrimental effects of Ecstacy. If you think that I`m somehow taking the moral high ground against recreational drug use, then you`re wrong (I`m not in a position to do this, having indulged myself over the years). The symptoms described matched those of my friend, who has been going out of her mind with worry about what on earth is wrong with her, and there seemed to be similarities. That`s all I was saying. >
>
> > First of all, assuming the symptoms are related to MDMA use, they are happening to two people of of countless numbers of users. With any drug there will be bad reactions. That doesn't mean everybody has one.
>
> I wasn`t saying that.
>
> > Also, how do you know MDMA actually caused the problems?
>
> I don`t. I thought I`d made that clear.
>
> I know many heavy users who never complain of any ill effects from using ecstasy.
>
> Me, too.
>
> On the other hand, ecstasy could very well be causing the symptoms. The bottom line is we don't know. So please don't start a crusade against ecstasy use based on misinformation.
>
> I feel quite upset that you think I`m starting some kind of `crusade`. For a start, I`m not one to do this sort of thing, and secondly, I don`t have enough facts to do so. I hoped that I`d made this clear in my post. A `crusade` is furthest from my mind - in fact, the way I feel most of the time, I couldn`t co-ordinate a vicar`s tea party.
>
> I`m sorry if my remarks were reconstrued - I probably should have kept quiet.
>
> Anna.
Posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 13:54:18
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying that you're..... » mikes, posted by SLS on April 14, 2001, at 12:58:36
references? specifically about changes in behavior. I do believe that heavy or even moderate use causes memory problems, however, if you read the studies you'll find that most or all of the subjects didn't notice any problems.
Also, could you find some solid references about depression caused by mdma? Not the ones that merely show it lowers serotonin levels. Good luck.
>
> I don’t think that’s very nice to say. Any of us who remain the unwitting naïve tools of the medical establishment can find hundreds and hundreds of stories and documentation that MDMA produces long-term changes in cognition, behavior, and damages nerve structures crucial for functional neurotransmission. I can understand how anyone could develop a passionate disapproval of its use.
>
> It is not hysterical bullshit.
>
> I’ll reserve the right to maintain an open mind.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by sweetmarie on April 14, 2001, at 14:00:42
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying ... response to mike, posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 13:38:40
> sweetmarie- I wasn't attacking you or anyone else personally, I was just against the spread of misinformation. How could I be mad at you just for saying something? I just hit the reply button, I wasn't even responding to your post so much as all of the posts collectively. You shouldn't have kept quiet, your remarks are intelligent and well thought out.mike,
Fair enough.
Anna.
p.s. thanks for the `intelligent and well thought out` bit ... it`s certainly not how I see myself. But then, depression tends to remove such things as self-esteem etc. as we well know (well it does for me, anyway).
Posted by SLS on April 14, 2001, at 18:57:57
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying that you're..... SLS, posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 13:54:18
> references? specifically about changes in behavior. I do believe that heavy or even moderate use causes memory problems, however, if you read the studies you'll find that most or all of the subjects didn't notice any problems.
>
> Also, could you find some solid references about depression caused by mdma? Not the ones that merely show it lowers serotonin levels. Good luck.
>
I did all of that before I posted.You go find them. You won't need any luck.
- Scott
Posted by mikes on April 16, 2001, at 0:27:13
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying that you're..... SLS » mikes, posted by SLS on April 14, 2001, at 18:57:57
I looked up "mdma long term behavior changes" on google, no good articles came up. Could you give me some links? I'm not challenging you, I just really am interested in studies about damage caused by MDMA.
http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/gamma2000.pdf is the main one I know of. It says MDMA use effects memory and is neurotoxic to the serotonergic system.
> > references? specifically about changes in behavior. I do believe that heavy or even moderate use causes memory problems, however, if you read the studies you'll find that most or all of the subjects didn't notice any problems.
> >
> > Also, could you find some solid references about depression caused by mdma? Not the ones that merely show it lowers serotonin levels. Good luck.
> >
>
>
> I did all of that before I posted.
>
> You go find them. You won't need any luck.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by mikes on April 16, 2001, at 0:43:31
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying ... response to mike, posted by sweetmarie on April 14, 2001, at 14:00:42
No problem, you are very open minded; I don't see that very often. Depression definitely killed my confidence, not that I knew until about a year ago, since I've been depressed my entire life and had nothing to compare to.
>
> > sweetmarie- I wasn't attacking you or anyone else personally, I was just against the spread of misinformation. How could I be mad at you just for saying something? I just hit the reply button, I wasn't even responding to your post so much as all of the posts collectively. You shouldn't have kept quiet, your remarks are intelligent and well thought out.
>
> mike,
>
> Fair enough.
>
> Anna.
>
> p.s. thanks for the `intelligent and well thought out` bit ... it`s certainly not how I see myself. But then, depression tends to remove such things as self-esteem etc. as we well know (well it does for me, anyway).
Posted by SLS on April 16, 2001, at 1:31:36
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying that you're..... SLS, posted by mikes on April 16, 2001, at 0:27:13
> I looked up "mdma long term behavior changes" on google, no good articles came up. Could you give me some links? I'm not challenging you, I just really am interested in studies about damage caused by MDMA.
>
> http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/gamma2000.pdf is the main one I know of. It says MDMA use effects memory and is neurotoxic to the serotonergic system.
Hi Mike.I will probably not be able to post for a few days. Maybe we can work together on this.
The major “obstacle” for determining with scientific confidence the long-term effects of the use of MDMA in humans is obviously a matter of ethics. I don’t think it would go over too well to take healthy, drug-naïve volunteers and administer to them MDMA on a regular basis over several years using different dosages and follow them during the exposure period and for years afterwards. This leaves anecdotal reports, retrospective and naturalistic studies, and attempts to corroborate observations and psychometric measurements with data collected from animal experiments. However, to me, there seems to be a trend of discovery in the direction of demonstrating both short-term and long-term adverse effects produced by the use of MDMA. I should mention here that there is speculation that some of the long-term psychological and cognitive distrurbances might be reversible. What is sure is that MDMA is directly responsible for the destruction of serotonergic nerve terminals.
My main reason for posting anything at all was to demonstrate that there are more than ample writings for any one person to read and feel well enough informed so that they may reasonably conclude that MDMA can be harmful.
- Scott
Posted by Parody on June 21, 2001, at 20:00:39
In reply to it's even more horrifying that you're....., posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 0:56:15
The real pitty my friend is that it has happened to a friend of mine as well. Pros and Cons aside...unless you've seen the devastating effects and you've experience the excruciating pain of losing a friend to depression, paranoia, memory loss, constant headaches, and unless you've cried and cried at the loss of a relationship and felt the loss of understanding what depression really is (and it's not good sunshine) ....then you post a narky responce like yours and feel good about it. There's no debate...drugs fuck people's mind (whether they are the taker or the unfortunate people who have to watch their loved ones suffer). Live by all means, but die when your 80 not when you are 20.Anybody else reading this....please add stories of friends, family or partners that you've lost or who have similar problems. It obviously needs the attention.
Posted by kathyc on July 5, 2001, at 10:00:25
In reply to I have permanent brain damage from ecstacy use, posted by A. N. on April 10, 2001, at 22:54:09
> i too have similar problems due to a reaction from Lorazepam(ativan) and celexa 26 days of lorazepam only 12 days of that was with celexa. That's all it took to screew my whole freakin life up. I had only ever had one panic attack and the dr prescribed ativan and gave me a prescription. The side effects sheets aren't regulated. There is no standard for those things. The sheet did not say anything like this could hapopen. Only dizziness, etc. Your basic things. I will write back again
Posted by stjames on July 7, 2001, at 20:12:53
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying that you're..... » mikes, posted by NikkiT2 on April 14, 2001, at 7:13:11
> The majority of E's these days don't actually contain MDMA at all, or hardly any!!!
>
> Just thought I'd drop that in!!!!
>
> NikkiJames here...
Not true, this is well studied. Most do contain MDMA or related compound. There are several web sites where this is tested from all over the world. Anyone can use the Marquis Reagent to prove a pill contains MDMA like compounds.
James
Posted by stjames on July 7, 2001, at 21:29:57
In reply to Re: it's even more horrifying ... response to mike » mikes, posted by sweetmarie on April 14, 2001, at 6:01:18
> On the other hand, ecstasy could very well be causing the symptoms. The bottom line is we don't know. So please don't start a crusade against ecstasy use based on misinformation.
>James here...
I agree. It is really a bad idea, when one is having medical problems, to assume whatever is causing it. One could be assuming the wrong thing and not getting proper treatment. There is not any test to prove that XTC has caused damage, some tests can hint at it but microscopic examination with a scannig electron microscope of neurological tissue is not something most docs can do.
If anyone scould have damage I should. ~300 doses of pure MDMA or MDA taken between 1982-1984 have produced no problems long term in myself or 2 others.
Given how common mental illness and XTC use are, there is no reason to assume one causes the other. These two issues may, through random selection, happen in the same person. However, anything overdone may cause problems is some.
Bottom line is to get a consult from a specailist so you know what you are treating.
James
Posted by scatterbrain on October 28, 2004, at 12:26:57
In reply to I have permanent brain damage from ecstacy use, posted by A. N. on April 10, 2001, at 22:54:09
This is in response to A.N.'s post on April 10, 2001. A.N., I hope you get this message. After I read your post, I knew I had to contact you. I want to let you know that you are not alone. I too have symptoms very similar to what you have been experiencing. In 2000, I used MDMA heavily. I stopped using MDMA for several months...and that's when I started to feel symptoms. You state in your post, "...I feel different parts of my brain pulsing in very uncomfortable ways. I squeeze my hands..." I was surprised when I read this. You chose the right words to describe the type of feeling I've been experiencing. I describe the feeling as a "tight band around my head" type of sensation. I would rub my temples in an attempt to alleviate this feeling. I too feel more anxiety in situations I was comfortable with in the past. At a social gathering, my heart started beating very rapidly and I started to sweat heavily. I felt I was freaking out. I later realized I was experiencing a panic attack...something I have never experienced prior to my heavy MDMA use (this occurred about one year after I last dropped). I have talked to others who have also used MDMA heavily. It is frustrating because I haven't talked to one person who has similar symptoms like mine. And that's why I was compelled to write you...to let you know that you are not alone. I too, "feel sick every day and attribute this to heavy ecstacy use..." I want to know how everything is going for you now. Did you find any type of treatments that helped? Thank you...and for anyone reading this, if you are considering using MDMA, my advice would be to use it moderately. Don't make the mistake I made by trying to chase that magical high by dropping one pill after another. Trust me, you do not want to experience the symptoms I've been experiencing for the past four years. Be safe
Posted by Sebastian on October 30, 2004, at 20:02:25
In reply to Re: I have permanent brain damage from ecstacy use, posted by scatterbrain on October 28, 2004, at 12:26:57
I'm not sure you have permanent brain damage. You said it has only been a year since you stoped. I hear that it takes a few years, depending on use. I had excesive spurts where I would take a lot at once and stop. For the next few months my brain felt like it would not work at all. I think it took me a few years to feel back to normal. I have heard that ex is not 'permanent'.
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 1, 2004, at 8:48:13
In reply to Re: I have permanent brain damage from ecstacy use » scatterbrain, posted by Sebastian on October 30, 2004, at 20:02:25
"I'm not sure you have permanent brain damage. You said it has only been a year since you stoped. I hear that it takes a few years, depending on use. I had excesive spurts where I would take a lot at once and stop. For the next few months my brain felt like it would not work at all. I think it took me a few years to feel back to normal. I have heard that ex is not 'permanent'."
I have read scientific articles in my study that claims that you can get permanent brain damage from XTC use, and it doesn't matter whether you used it last month or last year... a braindamage shows up within reasonable time. If someone bangs you in the head and make a damage to your language center, it won't take a year before you loose the ability to speak. A study in Germany also showed that if you have used 200 or more userdoses during your lifetime, you have a braindamage with 100% certainty. If I really look for it, I might be able to find the reference for this somewhere.
What matters it what you mean by brain damage (attention problems, memory problems etc are just as much a braindamage as loosing the ability to speak, but not everyone are labeling DEPRESSION for example, a braindamage).
I'd advice the person who said he might have brain damage to consult a doctor, and insist on getting a proper neurological investigation. Only then you can find out whether you have gotten a brain damage, and how bad it is.
Posted by reefer on November 2, 2004, at 5:36:45
In reply to it's even more horrifying that you're....., posted by mikes on April 14, 2001, at 0:56:15
I did MDMA(ecstasy) almost every weekend for about 5 years and never really developed any psychiatric problems from it. I bought it in powder form though and had it lab tested always. And always measured up exactly 120 mg's in a cap. Problem with pre pressed pills is that "it's like a box of chocolate, u never know what you're going to get". Since MDMA is illegal people use the legal research chems that no one really knows what they do to you. Like the piperazines. If you combine some 4 of them into a pill you get a high similar to MDA. The difference though is that you've now used 4 chemicals in one night and you don't even know what they do to your brain by themselves i dont even wanna know what 4 of those will do to you. If someone would like to do some more research on this i can name a few of the chems i'm talking about: BZP, MDBP, TFMPP, MCPP, MEOPP.
This is the end of the thread.
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