![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by hopko on April 5, 2001, at 11:56:58
Does anyone know if taking a low dose of melatonin (3-6mg) is safe while taking Remeron? Thanks.
Posted by SalArmy4me on April 5, 2001, at 12:48:33
In reply to Another Remeron Question, posted by hopko on April 5, 2001, at 11:56:58
What's the melatonin for?
> Does anyone know if taking a low dose of melatonin (3-6mg) is safe while taking Remeron? Thanks.
Posted by hopko on April 5, 2001, at 12:56:27
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question, posted by SalArmy4me on April 5, 2001, at 12:48:33
I have severe anxiety induced insomnia and am just starting remeron tonight. I can go to sleep with 6mgs of melatonin + 15mgs of restoril. I have only used restoril sparingly over the last couple of weeks (like maybe 5 nights), but if I do not use it will usually not sleep.
My doc wanted me to keep the melatonin tonight just to insure I fall asleep since we are unsure of how I am going to do on the remeron. I want to try remeron on its own, but AM a little worried about it not working and laying awake all night.
Thanks in advance for your input.
Posted by MSM on April 5, 2001, at 15:35:20
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question, posted by hopko on April 5, 2001, at 12:56:27
> I have severe anxiety induced insomnia and am just starting remeron tonight. I can go to sleep with 6mgs of melatonin + 15mgs of restoril. I have only used restoril sparingly over the last couple of weeks (like maybe 5 nights), but if I do not use it will usually not sleep.
>
> My doc wanted me to keep the melatonin tonight just to insure I fall asleep since we are unsure of how I am going to do on the remeron. I want to try remeron on its own, but AM a little worried about it not working and laying awake all night.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input.My experience with Remeron is that you WILL sleep. If you react to the remeron the way I did you will not need to use anything else, just get to bed early and keep a note pad next to the bed to write down your dreams in the morning. You might want to get the coffe pot ready for the morning also, the first day or two it may be a bit hard to get started. Sweet dreams and good luck.
Mark
Posted by stjames on April 5, 2001, at 23:31:22
In reply to Another Remeron Question, posted by hopko on April 5, 2001, at 11:56:58
> Does anyone know if taking a low dose of melatonin (3-6mg) is safe while taking Remeron? Thanks.
james here....
A better question is "Is any dose of melatonin safe" Since it is a "supplement" no one has had to prove safety and other issues. We just do not know.
While endless discourse happens on Effexor no one seems to care that there are no long term studies and safety and effect of X dose of melatonin. No studies to define how much is enough and what the "big picture" is in terms of effect on the body. Good forbid we not have studies on meds but this all seems to not matter if something says "natural". the fact that it is natural means nothing in terms of safety; hydrocloric acid is "natural" but no one is in a hurry to use it as a health aid.
James
Posted by Daveman on April 6, 2001, at 1:39:12
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question, posted by MSM on April 5, 2001, at 15:35:20
I want to second what Mark wrote. The first night I took Remeron 15 mg. I slept ten straight hours- and I too was, at the time, suffering from severe anxiety-related insomnia and had been taking benzos (xanax and klonopin) to sleep. One hit of Rem and it was goodbye benzos!
Dave
> > I have severe anxiety induced insomnia and am just starting remeron tonight. I can go to sleep with 6mgs of melatonin + 15mgs of restoril. I have only used restoril sparingly over the last couple of weeks (like maybe 5 nights), but if I do not use it will usually not sleep.
> >
> > My doc wanted me to keep the melatonin tonight just to insure I fall asleep since we are unsure of how I am going to do on the remeron. I want to try remeron on its own, but AM a little worried about it not working and laying awake all night.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your input.
>
> My experience with Remeron is that you WILL sleep. If you react to the remeron the way I did you will not need to use anything else, just get to bed early and keep a note pad next to the bed to write down your dreams in the morning. You might want to get the coffe pot ready for the morning also, the first day or two it may be a bit hard to get started. Sweet dreams and good luck.
>
> Mark
Posted by hopko on April 6, 2001, at 8:09:17
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question » MSM, posted by Daveman on April 6, 2001, at 1:39:12
Well, I took my first 15 of remeron at 9pm last night and got tired but at 10:30 was still awake. I took 6mg of melatonin at that time and fell asleep about midnight. I slept off and on until about 4:45. Have to get up at 6:30am.
I am very sensitive to benzos and wonder if I had some rebound insomnia from the restoril the night before. I am willing to try the remeron again for a few nights. Maybe as it builds up in my system it will be more helpful to me in terms as sleep?? That is really ALL I want. I am not depressed...yet.
Posted by karenR on April 6, 2001, at 10:01:36
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question » MSM, posted by Daveman on April 6, 2001, at 1:39:12
> I want to second what Mark wrote. The first night I took Remeron 15 mg. I slept ten straight hours- and I too was, at the time, suffering from severe anxiety-related insomnia and had been taking benzos (xanax and klonopin) to sleep. One hit of Rem and it was goodbye benzos!
>
> Dave
>Daveman,
How long have you been on the remeron and how much? I started 7.5mgs 6 weeks ago. I had immediate good effects, but they started to wear off,
I went up to 15 mgs a week ago, and feel awful, as if I'm not taking anything. I suspect at my appt today my doc will say go up to 30 mgs, but
am I "immune" to remeron or do I just need more? It's not making me sleepy at all. I was afraid, cuz the first time I took it, I was almost comatose
for about 24 hours, then totally fine. When I went up to 15 mgs I thought I'd experience the same thing, but
nothing at all happened, in fact, the tightness in my chest got worse. :(KarenR
Posted by Daveman on April 7, 2001, at 0:05:07
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question » Daveman, posted by karenR on April 6, 2001, at 10:01:36
Karen:
I've been on Remeron 15 mgs. for about six weeks now. The sedation effect wore off for me after about a month. I asked my docs about a different sleep augmentor (my main med is Celexa, 40 mg.) but they wanted to wait awhile and see what would happen. I started experimenting with "natural" sleep aids (usually Valerian root, GABA, occasionally Kava) and, lo and behold, started sleeping again- not through the night, mind you, but enough to function well the next day. And so it has gone the last couple of weeks- I have Ambien, xanax and klonopin on hand as needed but haven't taken one in a long time (and want to take as little as possible of that stuff!)
Going "up" on Remeron does not increase the sleep factor for most people. Remeron is a "paradoxic" med, the more you take the more activating it is (not for everyone, but for most). So I'm not surprised at your reaction. If it is sleep augmentation you're looking for, the following are meds that various patients have found useful (other than a benzo or a sleeping pill): Trazodone (low dose), Zyprexa, one of the tricyclics (elavil or doxepin), vistaril (an antihistamine).
Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Dave
> > I want to second what Mark wrote. The first night I took Remeron 15 mg. I slept ten straight hours- and I too was, at the time, suffering from severe anxiety-related insomnia and had been taking benzos (xanax and klonopin) to sleep. One hit of Rem and it was goodbye benzos!
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> Daveman,
>
> How long have you been on the remeron and how much? I started 7.5mgs 6 weeks ago. I had immediate good effects, but they started to wear off,
> I went up to 15 mgs a week ago, and feel awful, as if I'm not taking anything. I suspect at my appt today my doc will say go up to 30 mgs, but
> am I "immune" to remeron or do I just need more? It's not making me sleepy at all. I was afraid, cuz the first time I took it, I was almost comatose
> for about 24 hours, then totally fine. When I went up to 15 mgs I thought I'd experience the same thing, but
> nothing at all happened, in fact, the tightness in my chest got worse. :(
>
> KarenR
Posted by sweetmarie on April 8, 2001, at 7:55:33
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Karen » karenR, posted by Daveman on April 7, 2001, at 0:05:07
>
> Going "up" on Remeron does not increase the sleep factor for most people. Remeron is a "paradoxic" med, the more you take the more activating it is (not for everyone, but for most).Dave,
What do you mean by `paradoxic`?
I`m shortly going onto Remeron (Zispin in this country) Efexor and Lamictal, and trying to gather any info I can on them.
I know that this won`t be an accurate guage of the possible effect, as I assume that the idea is that all 3 will be working together, but I`d still like to know as much as I can.
Thanks,
Anna.
Posted by Daveman on April 8, 2001, at 14:16:00
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-to Dave, posted by sweetmarie on April 8, 2001, at 7:55:33
Hi Anna:
By "paradoxic", I simply meant that the more you take, the less sedating it is- seems counterintuitive, but holds true for most who take it. Thus, unlike a benzo, if the sedation effect wears off (as it did for me), you cannot increase the sedation by increasing the dose. Hope this helps.
BTW, what country are you posting from?
Dave
>
> >
> > Going "up" on Remeron does not increase the sleep factor for most people. Remeron is a "paradoxic" med, the more you take the more activating it is (not for everyone, but for most).
>
> Dave,
>
> What do you mean by `paradoxic`?
>
> I`m shortly going onto Remeron (Zispin in this country) Efexor and Lamictal, and trying to gather any info I can on them.
>
> I know that this won`t be an accurate guage of the possible effect, as I assume that the idea is that all 3 will be working together, but I`d still like to know as much as I can.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anna.
>
Posted by hopko on April 8, 2001, at 14:32:28
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna, posted by Daveman on April 8, 2001, at 14:16:00
Another question for you remeron users....this is my third day at 15mg. I am also taking 6mg of melatonin. My sleep is so,so. It took 1.5 hours to go to sleep last night and I woke up several times during the night.
My concern is that I feel totally spaced out. Is this just a normal adjustment to a new med or am I having trouble with remeron? The only other AD I have ever been on was effecor and I did not have this feeling at all.
Posted by sweetmarie on April 8, 2001, at 14:56:43
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna, posted by Daveman on April 8, 2001, at 14:16:00
> Hi Anna:
>
> By "paradoxic", I simply meant that the more you take, the less sedating it is- seems counterintuitive, but holds true for most who take it. Thus, unlike a benzo, if the sedation effect wears off (as it did for me), you cannot increase the sedation by increasing the dose. Hope this helps.
>
> BTW, what country are you posting from?
>
> Dave
>
Dave,Thanks for clearing that up. I`ve also heard that the higher the dosage, the less likely you are to gain weight. Another paradox? >
> >
I`m from the UK, where specialists in my kind of depression - i.e. `treatment resistant depression`, or `difficult to treat depression`, as it is more positively known, are very thin on the ground. The one I visited, who gave me my diagnosis (chronic severe double depression*), is one of two that I am aware of in this country. It will be him that`ll be treating me when I eventually go into hospital (about 3/4 weeks now).Why do you ask? > >
> >
Anyway, thanks for replying,Anna.
p.s. I keep coming across this `BTW`. What does it mean? > >
* my psychiatrist had never heard of `double depression` before, and had to look up `Dysthymia` (the on-going, long-term depression that is ever present, and I have certainly had for most, if not all of my life). `Double depression` is Dysthymia + severe major episode (for me, the past 6/7 years)
Posted by Daveman on April 8, 2001, at 20:29:22
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » Daveman, posted by sweetmarie on April 8, 2001, at 14:56:43
Hi Anna:
I only asked where you were from because I'm curious and amazed at how far-reaching our little "psycho-babble" community is. Dr. Bob should really be proud of what he has created here.
The UK, huh? The land where benzos are thought to be from the devil himself? I spent a great two weeks there in 1999 on "holiday", as you would say.
"BTW" is computereze for "by the way".
BTW, fair is fair, since you told me where you're from- I'm from Los Angeles, California, USA:)
Dave
> > >
> I`m from the UK, where specialists in my kind of depression - i.e. `treatment resistant depression`, or `difficult to treat depression`, as it is more positively known, are very thin on the ground. The one I visited, who gave me my diagnosis (chronic severe double depression*), is one of two that I am aware of in this country. It will be him that`ll be treating me when I eventually go into hospital (about 3/4 weeks now).
>
> Why do you ask? > >
> > >
> Anyway, thanks for replying,
>
> Anna.
>
> p.s. I keep coming across this `BTW`. What does it mean? > >
>
> * my psychiatrist had never heard of `double depression` before, and had to look up `Dysthymia` (the on-going, long-term depression that is ever present, and I have certainly had for most, if not all of my life). `Double depression` is Dysthymia + severe major episode (for me, the past 6/7 years)
Posted by sweetmarie on April 9, 2001, at 6:16:01
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » sweetmarie, posted by Daveman on April 8, 2001, at 20:29:22
Dr. Bob should really be proud of what he has created here.
You`re not wrong there. >
> The UK, huh? The land where benzos are thought to be from the devil himself?
That`s completely true. Don`t know quite why, though. I think that we are just very cautious about anything that might be in any way habit-forming.
I spent a great two weeks there in 1999 on "holiday", as you would say.
Where? >
> "BTW" is computereze for "by the way".
Oh, right. Pretty obvious really ... >
I'm from Los Angeles, California, USA:)
Wow ... I`ve never been to the West coast, but I`ve been to the East a couple of times (NY State/Massachusetts/Maine), but L.A. always sounds very glamourous to us Brits. I don`t suppose that Northern Britain holds anything like the same glamour - you`ve probably never even heard of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool etc. Well, you might have heard of Manchester - that`s where Oasis come from (if Oasis have permeated your neck of the woods, that is). >
>
Cheers,Anna.
> >
Posted by karenR on April 9, 2001, at 15:45:08
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Karen » karenR, posted by Daveman on April 7, 2001, at 0:05:07
Hi Dave,
I actually wanted to increase my remeron because of the tightness in my chest and feeling like I couldn't
get a full breath in. Last friday, my doc said I could go from 15mg to 30 mgs. I started this weekend. I felt
really good on saturday, didn't even feel tired at all from the increase, felt ok sunday,
then had a really bad sunday night from anxiety. Has anyone ever lost the ability to yawn?
I know it sounds strange, but it was highly distressing and I had so much trouble sleeping.
The 30 mgs of remeron dont' seem to have any side effects for me. I had a little bout with the
constant cravings for food (not increase in appetite, just never satisfied with what
I ate). After 4 weeks, that passed. Anyway, I'm hoping after a couple of weeks at 30 mgs I will
level out and feel better.Karen
> Karen:
>
> I've been on Remeron 15 mgs. for about six weeks now. The sedation effect wore off for me after about a month. I asked my docs about a different sleep augmentor (my main med is Celexa, 40 mg.) but they wanted to wait awhile and see what would happen. I started experimenting with "natural" sleep aids (usually Valerian root, GABA, occasionally Kava) and, lo and behold, started sleeping again- not through the night, mind you, but enough to function well the next day. And so it has gone the last couple of weeks- I have Ambien, xanax and klonopin on hand as needed but haven't taken one in a long time (and want to take as little as possible of that stuff!)
>
> Going "up" on Remeron does not increase the sleep factor for most people. Remeron is a "paradoxic" med, the more you take the more activating it is (not for everyone, but for most). So I'm not surprised at your reaction. If it is sleep augmentation you're looking for, the following are meds that various patients have found useful (other than a benzo or a sleeping pill): Trazodone (low dose), Zyprexa, one of the tricyclics (elavil or doxepin), vistaril (an antihistamine).
>
> Good luck and let us know how it goes!
>
> Dave
>
> > > I want to second what Mark wrote. The first night I took Remeron 15 mg. I slept ten straight hours- and I too was, at the time, suffering from severe anxiety-related insomnia and had been taking benzos (xanax and klonopin) to sleep. One hit of Rem and it was goodbye benzos!
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> >
> > Daveman,
> >
> > How long have you been on the remeron and how much? I started 7.5mgs 6 weeks ago. I had immediate good effects, but they started to wear off,
> > I went up to 15 mgs a week ago, and feel awful, as if I'm not taking anything. I suspect at my appt today my doc will say go up to 30 mgs, but
> > am I "immune" to remeron or do I just need more? It's not making me sleepy at all. I was afraid, cuz the first time I took it, I was almost comatose
> > for about 24 hours, then totally fine. When I went up to 15 mgs I thought I'd experience the same thing, but
> > nothing at all happened, in fact, the tightness in my chest got worse. :(
> >
> > KarenR
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 9, 2001, at 21:40:07
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » Daveman, posted by sweetmarie on April 9, 2001, at 6:16:01
> you`ve probably never even heard of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool etc. Well, you might have heard of Manchester - that`s where Oasis come from
Wasn't there once a group from Liverpool, too? :-)
Bob
Posted by Daveman on April 9, 2001, at 22:26:16
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » Daveman, posted by sweetmarie on April 9, 2001, at 6:16:01
Hey Anna:
Like anywhere, Los Angeles is not nearly as glamorous to us who live here as it looks from afar. Most of us have no connection with the entertainment industry. There are plenty of outlets for "extra" Xanax, though:)
I was mostly in London but we went touring up to Wales (Llangollen- yes I did learn how to pronounce it!) and then on to Edinburgh. Didn't make it to that town where that unknown rock group Dr. Bob refers to was from:)
Dave
> Dr. Bob should really be proud of what he has created here.
>
> You`re not wrong there. >
>
> > The UK, huh? The land where benzos are thought to be from the devil himself?
>
> That`s completely true. Don`t know quite why, though. I think that we are just very cautious about anything that might be in any way habit-forming.
>
> I spent a great two weeks there in 1999 on "holiday", as you would say.
>
> Where? >
>
> > "BTW" is computereze for "by the way".
>
> Oh, right. Pretty obvious really ... >
>
> I'm from Los Angeles, California, USA:)
>
> Wow ... I`ve never been to the West coast, but I`ve been to the East a couple of times (NY State/Massachusetts/Maine), but L.A. always sounds very glamourous to us Brits. I don`t suppose that Northern Britain holds anything like the same glamour - you`ve probably never even heard of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool etc. Well, you might have heard of Manchester - that`s where Oasis come from (if Oasis have permeated your neck of the woods, that is). >
> >
> Cheers,
>
> Anna.
> > >
Posted by sweetmarie on April 10, 2001, at 6:08:02
In reply to Re: you might have heard of Manchester, posted by Dr. Bob on April 9, 2001, at 21:40:07
> > you`ve probably never even heard of Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool etc. Well, you might have heard of Manchester - that`s where Oasis come from
>
> Wasn't there once a group from Liverpool, too? :-)
>
> BobBob,
Oh yes, I was forgetting ...
What were they called again ?
:)
Anna.
Posted by sweetmarie on April 10, 2001, at 6:15:44
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna, posted by Daveman on April 9, 2001, at 22:26:16
>I was mostly in London but we went touring up to Wales (Llangollen- yes I did learn how to pronounce it!)
Never heard of it.
and then on to Edinburgh.
I`ve heard it`s really nice there, but never been.
Didn't make it to that town where that unknown rock group Dr. Bob refers to was from:)
I`ve never been there either, although `Strawberry Fields` actually does exist, so I`m told.
>
And what is Xanax (please excuse my ignorance)? Presumably we have it here under another name.And what do you mean by "extra" outlets?
Sounds well dodgy to me.
Anna.
Posted by ShelliR on April 10, 2001, at 12:06:10
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » Daveman, posted by sweetmarie on April 10, 2001, at 6:15:44
Anna, do they use MAOIs in UK, like nardil or parnate? Have these been drugs you've tried?
Just interested in whether they're available and widely used there for refractory depression since I would have been completely lost without nardil.shelli
Posted by sweetmarie on April 10, 2001, at 14:50:01
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » sweetmarie, posted by ShelliR on April 10, 2001, at 12:06:10
> Anna, do they use MAOIs in UK, like nardil or parnate? Have these been drugs you've tried?
> Just interested in whether they're available and widely used there for refractory depression since I would have been completely lost without nardil.
>
> shelliShelli,
Yes, they do use MAOIs for refractory depression over here.
I`ve been on Nardil now for over a year, and it`s done no good at all. It has, however, caused me a lot of weight gain (3 stone). Bit of a bummer, since it hasn`t made an atom of difference to my mood.
A friend of mine has been on it (Nardil) 3 times, and it worked 1st and 2nd time, but not the 3rd.
Anyway, yes MAOIs are used, but not as often as SSRIs and Tricyclics.
Anna.
p.s. has Nardil made a big difference? My mate said that it was brilliant when it did work.
Posted by ShelliR on April 10, 2001, at 16:41:24
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » ShelliR, posted by sweetmarie on April 10, 2001, at 14:50:01
> p.s. has Nardil made a big difference? My mate said that it was brilliant when it did work.I've been really lucky with nardil, in that it worked first for about six years, stopped working; 2nd time worked for about three years. It wasn't that I was never depressed, I just never dropped down below a certain level for more than 1 day. Then around a year ago effectiveness pretty much stopped, although I've still used it as the main ad to augent. All my augmentation failed or made me fat (lamictal). I take hydrocodone if things get really bad, a very small amount which I don't increase.
For the last two months I have taken omega fatty acids in the form of flax seeds (with nardil), and I think it's making a big difference; I will be able to tell better after another month.
I really hope the regiment from the hospital helps you. One more thing--you've probably already tried it, but I know people who haven't done well with anything, then did well with sam-e- (1600-2400mg). It didn't work for me, but it's just one more thing to put on your list. Shelli
Posted by Daveman on April 11, 2001, at 2:21:42
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » Daveman, posted by sweetmarie on April 10, 2001, at 6:15:44
Anna:
Xanax is the brand name for the benzodiazepene generically known as Alprazolam. It is a high-potency, short acting med. My "outlet" comment was intended as a joke, referring to my geographic proximity to Hollywood; Xanax is one of the "drugs of the stars". Guess I should have been a bit less obscure with my attempt at humor:)
Dave
> >I was mostly in London but we went touring up to Wales (Llangollen- yes I did learn how to pronounce it!)
>
> Never heard of it.
>
> and then on to Edinburgh.
>
> I`ve heard it`s really nice there, but never been.
>
> Didn't make it to that town where that unknown rock group Dr. Bob refers to was from:)
>
> I`ve never been there either, although `Strawberry Fields` actually does exist, so I`m told.
> >
> And what is Xanax (please excuse my ignorance)? Presumably we have it here under another name.
>
> And what do you mean by "extra" outlets?
>
> Sounds well dodgy to me.
>
> Anna.
Posted by sweetmarie on April 11, 2001, at 5:03:31
In reply to Re: Another Remeron Question-response to Anna » sweetmarie, posted by ShelliR on April 10, 2001, at 16:41:24
> I've been really lucky with nardil, in that it worked first for about six years, stopped working; 2nd time worked for about three years. It wasn't that I was never depressed, I just never dropped down below a certain level for more than 1 day. Then around a year ago effectiveness pretty much stopped, although I've still used it as the main ad to augent.
That`s really bad news. I bet you were really sick about that one.
All my augmentation failed or made me fat (lamictal). I take hydrocodone if things get really bad, a very small amount which I don't increase.
Didn`t think that Lamictal caused weight gain. >
> For the last two months I have taken omega fatty acids in the form of flax seeds (with nardil), and I think it's making a big difference; I will be able to tell better after another month.
I`ve heard of this - glad it`s working. >
> I really hope the regiment from the hospital helps you.
Thanks.
One more thing--you've probably already tried it, but I know people who haven't done well with anything, then did well with sam-e- (1600-2400mg).
Of what? (You don`t say)
It didn't work for me, but it's just one more thing to put on your list.
Anyway, cheers for replying - let me know what the mystery medication is.
Anna.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.