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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by michael on March 24, 2001, at 14:55:04
If I wanted to compare immediate release/regular ritalin to metadate, would crushing the metadate pills and ingesting the powderized pill yield the same results as a dose of regular ritalin?
Please don't worry, I'm not going to make a habit of this. I'm just wondering if this would allow me to make a valid comparison, rather than getting an entire prescription's worth of regular ritalin (since I now have the metadate)
...and this would also allow me to discuss/compare my response to both forms at my next appointment, rather than getting another prescription at my next appt., and waiting until the one after that to have that conversation... Hope that makes sense... michael
Posted by Sulpicia on March 24, 2001, at 17:04:25
In reply to metadate regular ritalin, posted by michael on March 24, 2001, at 14:55:04
> If I wanted to compare immediate release/regular ritalin to metadate, would crushing the metadate pills and ingesting the powderized pill yield the same results as a dose of regular ritalin?
>
> Please don't worry, I'm not going to make a habit of this. I'm just wondering if this would allow me to make a valid comparison, rather than getting an entire prescription's worth of regular ritalin (since I now have the metadate)
>
> ...and this would also allow me to discuss/compare my response to both forms at my next appointment, rather than getting another prescription at my next appt., and waiting until the one after that to have that conversation... Hope that makes sense... michaelHi -- first, trust whatever answer Cam gives you rather than mine.
IF metadate is the same thing as Concerta [time release ritalin in the US], the answer is emphatically no.
Concerta has this fancy OROS delivery system with an outer coating resembling PVC [plastic plumbing pipe] with tiny holes thru which the med escapes, in theory in response to an osmotic
gradient. It was made to prevent crushing. I can't imagine how you would break it, but if you did, please realize that you would have not a single dose, but 3 or 4. Even if your med is just some standard time release med,
these meds usually have binding agents; I *believe* the result is that the active med is unevenly distributed. This means that you could potentially wind up with 90% of a 12 hour dose in a fraction of the pill.Please don't do this unless you completely understand how the time release med is bound.
It would be a lot simpler to ask your doc for a sample, or a prescription for 10 tabs of regular ritalin.If cost is an issue, have you considered either adderall or dexedrine? Much cheaper, smoother in most folks opinions,
and potentially better tolerated by adults.
If you've been diagnosed with ADD/HD your doc will understand that lots of fiddling is necessary for adults
to get the right dose and med. He should be able to work with you on this.
Seems a bit safer?
If I may, what was the Dx?
Best,
S.
Posted by michael on March 24, 2001, at 20:22:49
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help » michael, posted by Sulpicia on March 24, 2001, at 17:04:25
Hi,
First of all, thanks for the reply...
As for dx, dysthymia, w/add-inattentive-type elements. Mostly fatigue & concentration/focus & motivation type of issues. I'm taking 400mg wellbutrin sr, w/partial response. The stims are an attempt to augment.
As for cost, that's not why I was thinking about this - rather to save time (since you don't need as much time to evaluate effectiveness of stim's, was hoping to get a chance to compare these two before my next appt.)
And as for dose, I think I understand the issues... If, hypothetically, I were to crush a 10mg metadate pill, it would be like taking 10mg of regular ritalin (rather than the 10mg being spread out over 7 or 8 hours). At least that is the theory I was working under. That's what I was trying to ask.
But I think the issue is, as you indicated, the binding agents, or how the time-release aspect/elements would be affected by the crushing, and if it would continue to modify the absorption rates, even though crushed, etc.
I think I understand, but we'll say what Cam et al. have to say...
As for adderall - tried it, didn't like it. Felt lousy, made me uncomfortable, quiet, and withdrawn. Felt much better when it wore off. Dexedrine, on the other hand, was helpful. It was energizing and relaxing, at the same time. Regular ritalin was better yet, less energy aspect, and a bit more on the relaxation/calming & concentration/focus aspects.
My doc wanted to look at extended release meds... So far, both dex & ritalin (extended release) seem to make me a bit edgy/wired, and give me headaches. (and that's at lower doses w/the extended release meds, than I used of the regular dex & ritalin)
On the other hand, as I said above, the regular dex & ritalin were only helpful... Seems kind of paradoxical, or backward to me, but... michael
> > If I wanted to compare immediate release/regular ritalin to metadate, would crushing the metadate pills and ingesting the powderized pill yield the same results as a dose of regular ritalin?
> >
> > Please don't worry, I'm not going to make a habit of this. I'm just wondering if this would allow me to make a valid comparison, rather than getting an entire prescription's worth of regular ritalin (since I now have the metadate)
> >
> > ...and this would also allow me to discuss/compare my response to both forms at my next appointment, rather than getting another prescription at my next appt., and waiting until the one after that to have that conversation... Hope that makes sense... michael
>
> Hi -- first, trust whatever answer Cam gives you rather than mine.
> IF metadate is the same thing as Concerta [time release ritalin in the US], the answer is emphatically no.
> Concerta has this fancy OROS delivery system with an outer coating resembling PVC [plastic plumbing pipe] with tiny holes thru which the med escapes, in theory in response to an osmotic
> gradient. It was made to prevent crushing. I can't imagine how you would break it, but if you did, please realize that you would have not a single dose, but 3 or 4. Even if your med is just some standard time release med,
> these meds usually have binding agents; I *believe* the result is that the active med is unevenly distributed. This means that you could potentially wind up with 90% of a 12 hour dose in a fraction of the pill.
>
> Please don't do this unless you completely understand how the time release med is bound.
> It would be a lot simpler to ask your doc for a sample, or a prescription for 10 tabs of regular ritalin.
>
> If cost is an issue, have you considered either adderall or dexedrine? Much cheaper, smoother in most folks opinions,
> and potentially better tolerated by adults.
> If you've been diagnosed with ADD/HD your doc will understand that lots of fiddling is necessary for adults
> to get the right dose and med. He should be able to work with you on this.
> Seems a bit safer?
> If I may, what was the Dx?
> Best,
> S.
Posted by Cam W. on March 24, 2001, at 20:36:32
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help, posted by michael on March 24, 2001, at 20:22:49
Michael - I don't know the mechanism of sustained release properties of Metadate. Crushing tablest could result in just a regular ritalin or it could give you erratic blood levels via erratic absorption. If you want an immediate release, it is, as was said, easier to use a regular Ritalin. You could experiment and find out, but I would check with your pharmacist first. I live in Canada and our sustained release Ritalin may be different than yours. Your pharmacist should know how the Metadate pharmacokinetics differ drom refular Ritalin.
Sorry that I cannot be of much help. - Cam
Posted by michael on March 24, 2001, at 20:43:23
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help » michael, posted by Cam W. on March 24, 2001, at 20:36:32
> Michael - I don't know the mechanism of sustained release properties of Metadate. Crushing tablest could result in just a regular ritalin or it could give you erratic blood levels via erratic absorption. If you want an immediate release, it is, as was said, easier to use a regular Ritalin. You could experiment and find out, but I would check with your pharmacist first. I live in Canada and our sustained release Ritalin may be different than yours. Your pharmacist should know how the Metadate pharmacokinetics differ drom refular Ritalin.
>
> Sorry that I cannot be of much help. - Cam
Posted by pat123 on March 24, 2001, at 20:43:46
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help » michael, posted by Cam W. on March 24, 2001, at 20:36:32
Crushing of Ritalin can indicate someone is trying to abuse it. While I am not sugesting this is your reason if your doc or Rx knows you are doing this they may think you are abusing it. This is a real quick way to never get Ritalin again ! If you want to try somethng different please work with your doc and not on your own.
Pat
Posted by michael on March 25, 2001, at 11:22:31
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help, posted by pat123 on March 24, 2001, at 20:43:46
thanks, I know what you're saying... but, just for the record, I was talking specifically about extended release, (not just crushing reg ritalin) w/the express purpose of trying to simulate regular ritalin (and not crushed regular ritalin - I was just looking to evade the extended release mechanism for comparison purposes). Nonetheless, your point is well taken.
> Crushing of Ritalin can indicate someone is trying to abuse it. While I am not sugesting this is your reason if your doc or Rx knows you are doing this they may think you are abusing it. This is a real quick way to never get Ritalin again ! If you want to try somethng different please work with your doc and not on your own.
>
> Pat
Posted by pat123 on March 25, 2001, at 11:59:39
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help, posted by michael on March 25, 2001, at 11:22:31
> thanks, I know what you're saying... but, just for the record, I was talking specifically about extended release, (not just crushing reg ritalin) w/the express purpose of trying to simulate regular ritalin (and not crushed regular ritalin - I was just looking to evade the extended release mechanism for comparison purposes). Nonetheless, your point is well taken. >
>
I was talking about crushing evtended release also
so one can get high.Pat
Posted by michael on March 25, 2001, at 18:40:48
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help, posted by pat123 on March 25, 2001, at 11:59:39
Pat,
Thanks, just wasn't sure if you knew exactly my motivation... However, like I said before, I truely do see your point. Definitely very valid. Just for the record, that's not what my intention is/was... I'm certainly trying to feel "better," but I'm not looking to get high.
However, that seems to be an unavoidable issue when these drugs involved... I'm just glad that my doc trusts me (took a while) enough to let me explore the option... I guess part of my motivation was the fact that it took a while to get to that point, and now that we've gotten there, my doc is leaving (the practice) - So I was kind of hoping to be able to explore as many variations as possible, before my last session with her - which is my next one (particularly since evaluations/comparisons of stims can be done so quickly, relatively to most psych meds)...
Anyway, I sincerely appreciate your point. It was in the back of my mind, but I didn't think it would be a big issue, given my circumstances & my motivation... But I guess, as you pointed out, it can't help but be an issue... Thanks, I appreciate your concern & your input. michael
> > thanks, I know what you're saying... but, just for the record, I was talking specifically about extended release, (not just crushing reg ritalin) w/the express purpose of trying to simulate regular ritalin (and not crushed regular ritalin - I was just looking to evade the extended release mechanism for comparison purposes). Nonetheless, your point is well taken. >
> >
>
>
> I was talking about crushing evtended release also
> so one can get high.
>
> Pat
Posted by pat123 on March 25, 2001, at 20:50:41
In reply to Re: NO!CamW help, posted by michael on March 25, 2001, at 18:40:48
> Pat,
>
> Thanks, just wasn't sure if you knew exactly my motivation... However, like I said before, I truely do see your point. Definitely very valid. Just for the record, that's not what my intention is/was... I'm certainly trying to feel "better," but I'm not looking to get high.
>You came across as wanting to get better not get high.
This is the end of the thread.
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