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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shellie on February 17, 2001, at 11:26:07
FWIW. I heard a show on NPR about gender differences in different parts of the brain, and part of it was about depression. I have no idea of the study, but the conclusion was that depressed women respond better to SSRIs and depressed men to tricyclics.
Also, another show. (It's hard to get all the facts when I am listening in my car). A research scientist is working on clusters of specific ________ in the brain to predict which antidepressants are more likely to work for each individual.
So the future of antidepressants, in addition to adding a multitude of new antidepressants, might also include which antidepressants are best for which individuals.
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 12:51:37
In reply to gender differences and depression, posted by shellie on February 17, 2001, at 11:26:07
Hi Shellie.
> FWIW. I heard a show on NPR about gender differences in different parts of the brain, and part of it was about depression. I have no idea of the study, but the conclusion was that depressed women respond better to SSRIs and depressed men to tricyclics.
I have seen this written up elsewhere. These are statistics that are probably best interpreted as a trend rather than a treatment guideline to choose the first-line drug. Important information, though. I hope it serves well to hasten a doctor's decision to move away from failed SSRIs sooner in favor of trials of tricyclics in male patients.Thanks for the info.
Yes, there are striking differences in the brains of male versus female. It seems to me that females must be smarter, for their corpus collosum bridging the two cerebral hemispheres is larger. They might have access to a greater number of otherwise unilaterally located skills and reasoning matrices, thus "a woman's intuition". I think woman can often see the whole picture rather than simply following a linear addition of the sum of its parts.
I am just guessing at this and looking for female accolades...
Guys, if you know what's good for you, you will all agree unconditionally.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by shellie on February 17, 2001, at 14:04:33
In reply to Re: gender differences and depression, posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 12:51:37
> Yes, there are striking differences in the brains of male versus female. It seems to me that females must be smarter, for their corpus collosum bridging the two cerebral hemispheres is larger. They might have access to a greater number of otherwise unilaterally located skills and reasoning matrices, thus "a woman's intuition". I think woman can often see the whole picture rather than simply following a linear addition of the sum of its parts.
>
Hey Scott. Actually the women on the board may attack me for this. But I wonder this:because the cerebral hemisphere in males is smaller, perhaps that is why there are so many more male "geniuses" in different fields--that they are so focused on one side of the brain (Einstein, Monet, Tolstoy, etc.) that they have the advantage of more focus and energy in one specific area. So I agree that women have much more of an overall view, but that helps in some areas and hurts in others.I also recognize that environment plays some role, but the more brain work that is done, the more evidence there is for genetic differences. In the same program, they did a study on toys children prefer. Boys chose to play with trucks,legos etc., while girls played with dolls and doll houses. Books were gender neutral. But the fascinating part of the study was that they included a group of girls born with a specific condition in which they had much more testosterone than is normal for girls. These girls significantly chose to play with trucks, etc. also. So there goes the environmental factor theory.
Actually, this should be under social psychobabble, but....
shellie
Posted by Noa on February 17, 2001, at 14:10:39
In reply to Re: gender differences , posted by shellie on February 17, 2001, at 14:04:33
Well, to add an overgeneralized thought: perhaps women evolved to function better as "generalists" who have to be more adaptable to different types of challenges--kind of the general manager role that many women play in the lives of families.
Was the focus of the research on receptors?
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 16:25:51
In reply to Re: gender differences , posted by shellie on February 17, 2001, at 14:04:33
Hi Shellie.
> I also recognize that environment plays some role, but the more brain work that is done, the more evidence there is for genetic differences.
How true.
Just a technical point. The sexual dimorphism (gender differences) between brains is not so much genetic as it is epigenetic. In other words, both brains start out identical during fetal development. At some critical point, males experience a surge of testosterone and dehydrotestosterone secreted by the adrenal glands. When the male brain (and other things) are subject to these male hormones, their development is altered. If this surge of androgens does NOT occur within the critical period, a genetic male will be born a morphological female. I'm sure things are more complex than this, though.
The gender differences between brains have been recognized for many, many years. It is fact.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 16:33:11
In reply to Re: gender differences , posted by Noa on February 17, 2001, at 14:10:39
Dear Noa,
I think the evolutionary question is, not why do females have these capacities, but why males do not. Males are the "specialized" sex. We are good for only one thing. I just don't happen to know what exactly that one thing is.
- Scott> Well, to add an overgeneralized thought: perhaps women evolved to function better as "generalists" who have to be more adaptable to different types of challenges--kind of the general manager role that many women play in the lives of families.
>
>
> Was the focus of the research on receptors?
Posted by allisonm on February 17, 2001, at 17:07:46
In reply to Re: gender differences and depression, posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 12:51:37
> > >Yes, there are striking differences in the brains of male versus female. It seems to me that females must be smarter, for their corpus collosum bridging the two cerebral hemispheres is larger. They might have access to a greater number of otherwise unilaterally located skills and reasoning matrices, thus "a woman's intuition". I think woman can often see the whole picture rather than simply following a linear addition of the sum of its parts.
I am just guessing at this and looking for female accolades...
Guys, if you know what's good for you, you will all agree unconditionally.< < <
> >I think the evolutionary question is, not why do females have these capacities, but why males do not. Males are the "specialized" sex. We are good for only one thing. I just don't happen to know what exactly that one thing is.< <
Scott,I am holding my tongue and laughing out loud. Thanks for brightening my afternoon!
Allison
Posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:32:41
In reply to Re: gender differences and depression, posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 12:51:37
I think it's good to say stuff like that Scott, because it sorta helps make up for the hundreds of years during which the female brain was thought to be smaller than and inferior to the male brain. Early psych studies often don't include females at all.
I think we have a higher pain threshold, too--in general. I'm talking, of course, about pregnancy, labor and delivery. My experience (in the bad old days of 1970) was hours of desperate agony about which nothing could be done, and people just got pissed when I yelled. And, evidently some women "forget the pain when you hold your baby" but not the hell me!
Off topic there. Anyhow, good work on going for the accolades.
Shar
Posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:36:11
In reply to Re: gender differences » Noa, posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 16:33:11
.......Males are the "specialized" sex. We are good for only one thing. I just don't happen to know what exactly that one thing is.
>
>
> - Scott, call on me! Call on me! I know!
Shar
>
>
>
> > Well, to add an overgeneralized thought: perhaps women evolved to function better as "generalists" who have to be more adaptable to different types of challenges--kind of the general manager role that many women play in the lives of families.
> >
> >
> > Was the focus of the research on receptors?
Posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:48:57
In reply to Re: gender differences , posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:36:11
Generally speaking, it is advisable to use caution when considering gender differences because there are often greater within-groups differences than between-groups diffs in each of the two groups.
Secondly, it is thin ice to take an observed physical difference, and draw from it differences in abilities, or psychology. Those things really do take carefully controlled and well-designed research studies for validation.
Finally, it is often the case that women will have a high level of a trait but as a function of nature and/or nurture it manifests differently. Consider a study on dominance. When co-ed groups were formed, and a woman was high dominance, she used that trait to SELECT the male to be group leader. When a man was high dominance, for the group, he used that trait to ELECT himself (actually more like volunteer) to be group leader.
So, we have extrapolation, within-vs-between groups differences, how the trait manifests in each gender, and for the big finish, all the BS that males and females are exposed to that proscribe and prescribe role-related behaviors in our society.
Ah, ok, off the soap box now.
Shar
Posted by shellie on February 18, 2001, at 0:30:21
In reply to All seriousness aside.......Caution Advised, posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:48:57
> Secondly, it is thin ice to take an observed physical difference, and draw from it differences in abilities, or psychology. Those things really do take carefully controlled and well-designed research studies for validation.I think there are many carefully controlled and well-designed research studies that show there is a difference in the type of abilities and traits of men and women. You can't get a much better control group than the high testosterone girls.
Areas of activity in the brain are also being quantified while girls and boys are doing specific activities, and in many tasks there is a significant difference (significant in statistical terms) in the brain activity of girls and boys.
I have been amazed in working with kids, how early the difference manifests itself. I'm talking about one year olds (who I see many of). Even with the liberal parents banning guns from their house, most boys create guns out of sticks or whatever. Girls rarely do. That's why I think the possibity of a peaceful world will never happen. Because those little boys that pick up sticks and pretend they're guns grow up and create wars. If women were in power, I'd have more hope. Shellie
Posted by mars on February 18, 2001, at 1:53:38
In reply to All seriousness aside.......Caution Advised, posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:48:57
hey folks ~
just wanted to add this. very old studies seemed to indicate that the corpus callosum of women was bigger, but all of the more recent ones indicate it's not. my corpus callosum is damaged, so i tend to pay attention to info about it =;)
mars
Posted by Cam W. on February 18, 2001, at 9:53:38
In reply to the corpus callosum of women is not bigger, posted by mars on February 18, 2001, at 1:53:38
Actual, while I believe that there is no differnece in general intellectual ability between the sexes, there are definitely differences in the way we process certain information. Even these differences are probably on a genetically-based continuum. Intellectualism can be subdivided into a number of areas (at least 7) and I do not understand all of the implications of this, but I am sure women (on the whole) excel at some and men at others. Still in a within groups model (eg all male or all female) there is a wide varience in intellectual ability. I do know that there are actual brain structure differences between the sexes, but I can't remember what they are, right now.
Women flabbergast me with the number of lists they can juggle in their head, but ("I don't care if I am driving, just give me the damn map!") men are better at spatial orientation. There are a number of other examples of this.
To keep this a med issue, I know that a number of neuropsychocologists have (and are) developing elegant tests to determine the extent of these differences and their relation to the effects of medication.
My 2¢ - Cam
Posted by SLS on February 18, 2001, at 9:59:27
In reply to the corpus callosum of women is not bigger, posted by mars on February 18, 2001, at 1:53:38
Dear Mars,
Thanks for the information regarding the more recent measurements of the corpus callosum with respect to gender. It seems that, generally speaking, there is little association between gender and absolute callosum size. After reading through some of the more recent abstracts, I understand why the earlier studies concluded otherwise. Without stirring up any trouble, I will just comment that there is a trend towards females having a higher ratio of the size of the corpus callosum relative to total brain size.
There are many, many unequivical gender differences in brain structure and function.
All seriousness aside, I do think that women are intrinsically more intelligent than men. During childbirth, the reason why doctors hold the infant upside down and smack them on the butt is so the penis falls off the smart ones.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Lorraine on February 18, 2001, at 10:53:33
In reply to Re: the corpus callosum of women is not bigger » mars, posted by SLS on February 18, 2001, at 9:59:27
I have to say, I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Scott, you have had me rolling in the aisles on more than one occasion. Thanx.
Posted by mars on February 18, 2001, at 11:16:17
In reply to Re: the corpus callosum of women is not bigger » mars, posted by SLS on February 18, 2001, at 9:59:27
Dearest Scott ~
Which articles have you been reading? I always value your feedback.
cheers,
mars-ola
Posted by danf on February 19, 2001, at 6:27:31
In reply to Re: the corpus callosum of women is not bigger » SLS, posted by mars on February 18, 2001, at 11:16:17
Detailed studies have shown that the size of the CC directly correlates with breast size. Apparently the CC is related to mechanical structural support in the brain tissue.
There is also a high affinity between credit card use & the size of the CC. women who grow up in countries without credit cards have CC same size as men.
another correlation... women who work at Home Depot & are on 'do it your self' home remodeling TV shows have men sized CC.
Posted by allisonm on February 19, 2001, at 8:01:09
In reply to Re: Why the corpus callosum of women is bigger, posted by danf on February 19, 2001, at 6:27:31
You've gone too far. If that is your attitude toward women, perhaps you should take your stereotypic views to another board.
Posted by shellie on February 19, 2001, at 9:18:54
In reply to danf, posted by allisonm on February 19, 2001, at 8:01:09
.
Posted by Noa on February 19, 2001, at 13:55:23
In reply to Re: gender differences » Noa, posted by SLS on February 17, 2001, at 16:33:11
Scott,
That may be the existential 64,000 dollar question!
But seriously, don't you also think we are all a balance of masculine and feminine, not an all-or-nothing thing? Afterall, we all have both estrogen and testosterone, just in different amounts.
So, the degree to which we have the "general manager" kind of traits or the "specialist" kinds of traits, might be individual, on a continuum.
Posted by Noa on February 19, 2001, at 13:56:38
In reply to Re: gender differences , posted by shar on February 17, 2001, at 23:36:11
> > - Scott, call on me! Call on me! I know!
> SharLOL
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2001, at 18:30:29
In reply to Re: Why the corpus callosum of women is bigger, posted by danf on February 19, 2001, at 6:27:31
> Detailed studies have shown that the size of the CC directly correlates with breast size. Apparently the CC is related to mechanical structural support in the brain tissue.
Please be careful not to offend anyone, even -- or especially! -- when just trying to be humorous. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding this, if any, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by shar on February 20, 2001, at 1:55:17
In reply to UH-OH! Cam's Going to Respond to This, posted by Cam W. on February 18, 2001, at 9:53:38
Cam,
I agree with you about no gender difference in IQ, and believe that it is possible that men process information differently than women. Also, left-handed people process information differently from right-handed people. Also, serial killers process information differently than most "normals" (or maybe non-killers).I'm aware of findings on each of the items I mentioned, which is why I stated in a post above that a healthy dose of skepticism about sex difference findings couldn't hurt. When we look at physical (esp. brain) activity we don't know what's making what happen, and many researchers don't do much to control for possible covariants, so it could be completely spurious that a gender difference is found. Maybe gender is related to the real causal factor that has nothing to do with sex/gender.
As far as sex differences, there are two questions I wonder about. First, does it make sense that the observed difference really boils down to having that X or Y chromosome. Second, if we went to place where strict role behavior was absent, could we replicate the finding of a sex (gender) difference? Even at 1 year old, children have learned many social constraints and permissions, including ones related to gender. I believe a lot of the "gender differences" are developed due to roles people occupy, and what's needed to fulfill the prescribed behaviors.
It is too bad that replicating studies has gone out of style!
Shar
> Actual, while I believe that there is no differnece in general intellectual ability between the sexes, there are definitely differences in the way we process certain information. Even these differences are probably on a genetically-based continuum. Intellectualism can be subdivided into a number of areas (at least 7) and I do not understand all of the implications of this, but I am sure women (on the whole) excel at some and men at others. Still in a within groups model (eg all male or all female) there is a wide varience in intellectual ability. I do know that there are actual brain structure differences between the sexes, but I can't remember what they are, right now.
>
> Women flabbergast me with the number of lists they can juggle in their head, but ("I don't care if I am driving, just give me the damn map!") men are better at spatial orientation. There are a number of other examples of this.
>
> To keep this a med issue, I know that a number of neuropsychocologists have (and are) developing elegant tests to determine the extent of these differences and their relation to the effects of medication.
>
> My 2¢ - Cam
Posted by mars on February 21, 2001, at 17:59:17
In reply to Re: the corpus callosum of women is not bigger » SLS, posted by mars on February 18, 2001, at 11:16:17
You never answer my followup questions, Scott. (I can document this.) When you have a moment, dear Scott, would you post a bit of info about what you were reading about corpus collosi (?)?
yrs very truly,
a very sick mars
> Dearest Scott ~
>
> Which articles have you been reading? I always value your feedback.
>
> cheers,
>
> mars-ola
Posted by SLS on February 22, 2001, at 0:03:33
In reply to Scoooooootttttt » mars, posted by mars on February 21, 2001, at 17:59:17
> You never answer my followup questions, Scott. (I can document this.) When you have a moment, dear Scott, would you post a bit of info about what you were reading about corpus collosi (?)?
>
> yrs very truly,
>
> a very sick mars
Dear Mars,I am dismayed to here that you are suffering so. No matter how many times I read of people here who are hurting and agonizing, it never becomes any less difficult to see.
I apologize for not following-up on your post. Please don't take it personally. I have a limited amount of mental energy, and I can't always follow the continuation of a thread. Actually, I am becoming more reluctant to post things because I would then have the responsibility to follow up and answer people's questions.
There still seems to be a preponderance of evidence that indicates a true gender difference in the size and orientation of the corpus callosum along with many other structures and pathways. I thought it a good idea to include at the end of this post an abstract that is a rather lengthy, but broad treatment of gender differences in both brain morphology and psychometrics.
I could not find one abstract that I alluded to in my prior post. However, it made the following points:
1. There was very little gender difference in the absolute size of the corpus callosum.
2. As the size of the whole brain decreases, the size of the corpus callosum tends to remain the same.
3. Thus the size ratio of the corpus callosum to whole brain size is higher in smaller brains.
4. Woman generally have smaller brains than average-sized men, presumably because they have smaller heads and reduced cranial capacity.
5. Thus, most woman and smaller men have a larger corpus callosum relative to brain size.
This study would indicate that the size of the corpus callosum is not gender specific, but dependent only upon whole brain size.
* Cranial capacity does not equate to mental capacity. Any male who would disagree with this fact is, in fact, providing corroborative evidence of its validity.
- Scott
------------------------------------------------------------------9: J Neuropathol Exp Neurol 1999 Mar;58(3):217-26
The human cerebral cortex: gender differences in structure and function.
de Courten-Myers GM
Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, University of Cincinnati, Ohio
45267-0529, USA.Most people are aware of subtle differences in cognitive functions between men and women. Psychometric tests confirm specific gender differences in a number of areas, the most robust being in spatial orientation and mathematical tasks which are better performed by males. Nonetheless, normal males and females perform comparably on intelligence tests and human brains lack sexual dimorphism on routine neuropathological exams--other than mean differences in weight and size. Even so, human brains demonstrate: 1) a sexually dimorphic nucleus in the hypothalamus with twofold neuronal numbers in males than in females; 2) the planum temporale/anterior Sylvian fissure on the left side are larger in males; 3) some studies reveal the posterior corpus callosum to be more bulbous in females while others fail to show this difference; and 4) a cytoarchitectural study demonstrates definite sexual dimorphism of cerebral cortex with significantly higher neuronal densities and neuronal number estimates in males and a reciprocal increase in neuropil/neuronal processes in female cortex as implied by the 2 sexes' similar mean cortical thicknesses. Such morphologic differences may provide the structural underpinning for the gender differences exhibited by the normal and diseased brain. Males manifest a higher prevalence of mental retardation and of learning disabilities than females which may reflect the male fetus' smaller overproduction of nerve cells. Such an inference is supported by the demonstration of 1) better functional recovery following early brain injury than after later insults, 2) substantially overproduced and secondarily reduced nerve cells in human cerebral cortex during gestation, 3) the demonstration of a similar neuronal production and a testosterone-dependent neuronal involution of the sexually dimorphic hypothalamic nucleus in rats, and 4) more cortical neurons present in the adult human male than female. If an overproduced nerve cell population is capable of compensating for pathologic nerve cell losses taking place during the process of neuronal involution, the magnitude of overproduced nerve cells may define the extent of the protection conveyed. Because male fetuses appear to involute fewer overproduced cortical neurons than females, this gender difference could explain in part the boys' greater functional impairments from early brain damage. Women, on the other hand, exhibit a higher incidence and prevalence of dementia than do men. Given the females' overall larger extent of cortical neuropil (neuronal processes) and lower neuronal numbers compared with men, any disease that causes neuronal loss could be expected to lead to more severe functional deficits in women due to their loss of more dendritic connections per neuron lost. In conclusion, superimposed on a strong background of functional and structural equality, human male and female cerebral cortex display distinct, sexually dimorphic features, which can begin to be linked to a complex array of gender-specific advantages and limitations in cognitive functions.
PMID: 10197813
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