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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mr. man on December 1, 2000, at 3:08:06
from what i have read the brain has a way of adjusting to compensate for changes, i think some drugs like cocaine, amphetamines can make the brain change dopeamine, seritonin, levels permanently or at least for a very long time, now these antidepressants certainly arent as extreme in there action as the two mentioned but is this the reason ADs poop out, or is it possible that these ADs can permanently change your brain for the worse if taken long enough maybe without realizing it? and can a AD really provide a permanent solution to depression, can we really fool the brain with any drug for long?
Posted by stjames on December 1, 2000, at 13:05:19
In reply to playing with the brain?, posted by mr. man on December 1, 2000, at 3:08:06
I have been sucessful on AD's for 15 years.
james
Posted by jojo on December 2, 2000, at 23:05:13
In reply to playing with the brain?, posted by mr. man on December 1, 2000, at 3:08:06
> from what i have read the brain has a way of adjusting to compensate for changes, i think some drugs like cocaine, amphetamines can make the brain change dopeamine, seritonin, levels permanently or at least for a very long time, now these antidepressants certainly arent as extreme in there action as the two mentioned but is this the reason ADs poop out, or is it possible that these ADs can permanently change your brain for the worse if taken long enough maybe without realizing it? and can a AD really provide a permanent solution to depression, can we really fool the brain with any drug for long?
There may not be a permanent solution. I
suppose it depends on what "perminant"
means, but ADs have gotten me through the
past 18 years (after 12 years of
psychoanalysis without ADs, even though
I've had to switch and augment many times. If
you're satisfied with your life without
them, there's no point in getting involved,
but for many of us it appears that it has
provided our only means of survival. Life
was just too painful and unpreductive
without them. Ultimately, it's your choice,
but I wouldn't rely on one psychiatrist
to assist you in that choice. You can
learn a lot from this board. You will
bear the consequences of your decision
not a particular psychiatrist. Shop around.
There is no longer any perjorative
implication attached to "doctor shopping".
Posted by mr. man on December 3, 2000, at 1:15:27
In reply to Re: playing with the brain?, posted by jojo on December 2, 2000, at 23:05:13
Sorry for my post, I dont want to say antidepressants are bad, actually I hope they will help me in the future, I guess I just have a theres no hope gloomy attitude towards everything, Im sure theres a word for that but english was my worst subject, anyway if you want to know a little about me, I was on prozac for about a year and a half some time ago, the whole time I was taking it I told the doctor it wasnt doing anything but he was sure it would eventually work and it never did. The phycologists didnt help me and the phyciatrists didnt help so I said goodbye to all of them and just recently I reached a point where I said to myself, this is not living, this isnt right, I dont want to live like this anymore, so I did some research and decided to try reboxetine, it works on noradrenaline different than prozac, it seemed like it was worth a try from what I read about it, I was disapointed, reboxetine made my whole body feel strange, it gave me chills and it was like a weird stimulant rather than a antidepressant. So whats next, amisulpride, read some good stuff about it on this forum and it works on dopamine a different chemical again, but that theory didnt work last time, I really hope amisulpride helps because if it doesnt then ill really be discouraged. But again Im sorry about my previous post I was just having some negative gloomy outlook, dont be mad at me.
Posted by jojo on December 5, 2000, at 22:42:38
In reply to revised edition, posted by mr. man on December 3, 2000, at 1:15:27
> Sorry for my post, I dont want to say antidepressants are bad, actually I hope they will help me in the future, I guess I just have a theres no hope gloomy attitude towards everything, Im sure theres a word for that but english was my worst subject, anyway if you want to know a little about me, I was on prozac for about a year and a half some time ago, the whole time I was taking it I told the doctor it wasnt doing anything but he was sure it would eventually work and it never did. The phycologists didnt help me and the phyciatrists didnt help so I said goodbye to all of them and just recently I reached a point where I said to myself, this is not living, this isnt right, I dont want to live like this anymore, so I did some research and decided to try reboxetine, it works on noradrenaline different than prozac, it seemed like it was worth a try from what I read about it, I was disapointed, reboxetine made my whole body feel strange, it gave me chills and it was like a weird stimulant rather than a antidepressant. So whats next, amisulpride, read some good stuff about it on this forum and it works on dopamine a different chemical again, but that theory didnt work last time, I really hope amisulpride helps because if it doesnt then ill really be discouraged. But again Im sorry about my previous post I was just having some negative gloomy outlook, dont be mad at me.
Not mad at all. Maybe I have some idea of
what you're going through.There are many
antidepressants out there, and you can't
count on a physician to find the right
one, or correct dose for you. You may have
only been taking 20 mg/day of Prozac due
to an overly cautious doctor. Some people
take 60 or 80 mg/day. You may also be able
to augment them with a stimulant, or try a
combination of ADs, which is quite common
now. I found Prozac with Wellbutrin to be
much more effective than Prozac alone.
Posted by Rzip on December 8, 2000, at 22:28:00
In reply to playing with the brain?, posted by mr. man on December 1, 2000, at 3:08:06
I always thought it is frightening how the pharmacological aspect of mental health treatments work. It is almost like people just pick hormonal pills randomly from a collective pile of pills or something.
I mean, biochemically, in terms of enzyme functions, your body is just not built to tolerate excess and conflicting side reactions. Takes too much energy (use up precious ATPs and you suffer symptoms).
What I still do not understand is why the medications in treating mental health is so random and unspecific (a try and error process); wherelse in somatic symptoms, you can target right on the specific enzymatic reaction. So, what I am thinking is why and how did medical treatments in the mental health field get to be this way, where clients feel it is o.k. to pick and choose and switch on and off and what-not. I mean, we are still talking about the same biochemistry reactions here. It is just crazy. I would definitively never touch any mental health drug since the whole process just do not make any sense to me.
So, my advice to you, Mr. Man is to find out from various doctors (second and third opinions) exactly what enzymatic deficiency you have within your illness. For instance, let us say that patient A suffers from depression...and it is due primarily to deficiency in the transformation of Dopamine to Norepinephrine (noradrenaline). So let us take a look at this problem and how it is usually treated in the wide public arena:
The reactions is as follows and let us assume that deficiencies at any of these steps would contribute to depression:
1) TYROSINE to L-DOPA (let us say that Medicine A is the predominate choice here)
2) L-DOPA to DOPAMINE (Medicine B for treatment)
3) DOPAMINE to NOREPINEPHRINE (Our patient of interest, let us say that Medicine C is the treatment of choice)
4) NOREPINEPHRINE to EPINEPHRINE (Medicine D)Now, in the wide-spread public, it is believed that Medicine A, B, C, and D are the same because they all treat depression. But that concept is wrong. If you give our patient Medicine B which catalyzes L-DOPA to DOPAMINE, then the biochemical problem of our patient's deficiency in the transformation of DOPAMINE to NOREPINEPHRINE is still not resolved. Worse, now you have a patient who is not only suffering from physiological responses due to acute stress from his original deficiency; but the patient also has excess dopamine floating around in his body system. Excess of any neurotransmitters in the body is not good because then the body has to get rid of it (hence, the unpleasant symptoms and wierdness).
Anyway, what I am trying to figure out is how in the world did the mental health profession get to such a point where patients/clients actually feel "safe" in picking and chosing among medicines A, B, C, and D? I just do not understand it.
In the above biochemical example, medicine B is a decarboxylase going from DOPA to DOPAMINE; and medicine C is a hydroxylase going from DOPAMINE to NOREPINEPHRINE. Two different types of enzymatic reactions! Scary scenario.
*** NOTE: Just so I make it clear, I am NOT criticizing any individuals on this board at all...What I am questioning is the logic of the medical aspect of the mental health profession. Although, I have null right to actually criticize anything (I have no medical degrees or anything)...what I can not help doing is to try and make sense of this.
As long as I do not understand it, I will continue to be fearfully of this whole approach to medicine. It is just not right. I mean, why can't physicians in the mental health field target specific enzyme transformation deficiency, when the somatic doctors can. The obvious answer is time and short duration of medical trials in terms of Mental health history. However, it still does not excuse the fact that clients seem to think it is safe to pick, choose, and actually ingest randomly categorized medicines! I mean why should this practice be supported?
The ultimate question of course is that since there isn't any major ramifications from this drug practice, I, myself must be missing some chunk of knowledge. So feel free to enlighten me :-)
- Rzip
Posted by Sasha on December 13, 2000, at 5:19:23
In reply to Biochemistry; not to be toyed with » mr. man, posted by Rzip on December 8, 2000, at 22:28:00
I have never been satisfactorily diagnosed with having any underlying condition to my mental health concerns, yet I am taking a rather unique cocktail of Neurontin, Klonopin and Adderall. This combination is sometimes augmented with Xanax. The doses are the max listed for each category, and I tend to surpass the listed maximum doses when I feel horrible, just to maintain balance.
So you say that there is chaos in the practice of medicating mental health issues. I agree, it's the seventeenth century, and nobody knows what they are doing. Theories make sense- thorazine certainly took the edge off a lot of schizophrenic patients' families, even if it contributed to the patients' long term nightmare. I think the issue is this: Mental Health, since it is so difficult to compartmentalize and treat, is suffering severly from the current health care system. Until some miracle reform occurs, and money is put into this field (not from a pharmaceutical company interested in creating a better valium or SSRI, but from a truly progressive source), then us mentally confused folk will continue to cost society lots of dough and drop like flies after long battles with the invisible.
These studies you have reviewed as a layman impress me, possibly you or another out there can provide information to me on the effects of long term usage of the drugs I have mentioned, or the combination, and possibly alternatives?
Unfortunately I have done most of the research myself. I have nearly died twice from this whatever it is condition. But I look at the list of diagnosis criteria for Bi-Polar Disorders, PSTD, Borderline PSD, Obsessive-Compulsive disorder, Chronic Depression, Panic Disorders, and I start laughing- I could have any- except for something like paranioid schizophrenia. I cannot tolerate Depakote, the SSRIs I have tried, Trazedone, Serzone, Buspar, and now I am troubled by the dosage of the meds I am taking, particularly my amazing tolerance to Adderall. I have mentioned and gone through all of this to the Doctors, and I have no answers. I'd like to quit the Adderall, but tapering down doesn't work- it's like feeling a day go from 70 degrees to 10 degrees in an hour. I'll probably have to quit cold turkey and go through hell.
I have little faith in alternative medicine- I was in a study for neurofeedback. I sat and did nothing for hours. And nothing happened. I have also had no luck with St. John's wort or Valerian root (be careful with that stuff-yikes!)
Psychotherapy is fine and provides an alternative to having a diary- if you have the money. Counseling is great for emergencies, as long as you get the right counselor on the right day... otherwise it's like talking to anyone on the street...
I'm fighting like a dog here, and there are no experts in this field. Is this the best we can do- post info on the net and read about each other's reactions to drugs? I am sincere and not being facetious or sarcastic. What do I do?
Posted by Rzip on December 13, 2000, at 17:23:14
In reply to Re: Biochemistry; not to be toyed with » Rzip, posted by Sasha on December 13, 2000, at 5:19:23
Sasha,
I really wish that I have the medical knowledge to help you. Unfortunately, I am not confident in my understanding (or lack of) of the pharmocology discipline.
Perhaps, someone else on this board can provide the theoretics knowledge that you are seeking.
We'll just have to wait and see.
Sorry, to disappoint you.
- Rzip
P.S. The only safe advice I feel comfortable in giving is to double check your current medication intake and try and figure out whether or not they are really necessary. What/how exactly they effect you. Continue to question and to seek knowledge and understanding...it is frustrating, I know.
This is the end of the thread.
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