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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cass on July 22, 2000, at 22:58:05
Another dark depression has hit me, but I guess it is the anger that is causing the depression. I'm angry at every narrow-minded person I encountered as a child, who labeled me as "mentally ill" or "stupid" for exposing the harsh reality about my demented family, simply because they did not want to believe that an educated, well-spoken family could be twisted, dark, and deplorable on the inside. I'm angry at every person who rejects the truth in favor of popularity. I'm angry at "good girls" who are really just potential nazis; in other words, they mindlessly follow authority figures no matter how corrupt they are, and no matter how much destruction they cause. I'm angry at every person who believes that the laws of humanity do not apply to them. I'm just angry right now, and it is sapping all of my energy and optimism. I feel like this anger is going to kill me. I had one glass of wine to take the edge off, but sometimes being angry like this is like having the flu, it just takes awhile to recover. I've had so much trauma in my life. I've seen more moral and ethical corruption than most people ever will, I bet. I've seen true evil, and it is so hard to reconcile. I feel spent. I wish I knew how to forgive, but I would have to learn genuine forgiveness to do this, whatever that is. I couldn't just convince myself that I had forgiven. People say, "you have to forgive for your own sake." I agree, but how do you do it?? I think it takes some kind of profound understanding that I don't have. I'm just human. So what do I do?
Posted by Janice on July 23, 2000, at 0:02:28
In reply to Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by Cass on July 22, 2000, at 22:58:05
hi Cass,
sorry to hear you feel bad.
Cass perhaps you are simply more capable of seeing more than most people see, feeling more than most people feel, and you are just more aware of life than the people around you are. These are some the gifts of being very sensitive. And as we all know, one of the downside to all this sensitivity is being prone to depression.
I think you're right about forgiveness, it can't be forced. Nor should it be. I couldn't forgive my father for what he did until after he died. After he died, it was easy. While he was alive, I often felt hatred for him. My mother, she was worse than my father, and I have no plans to forgive her while she is living. Psychologically I have come to terms with both my parents. Superficially things look good.
My only plans are to forgive myself for not forgiving her. Cass, I don't know why people are so intense about forgiving "for my own sake" either. It always sounded ridiculous to me. Sometimes I think it is simply a cliche that they are repeating. As if this process could be forced or hurried or even encouraged - after the scars some people have inflicted on others. I would concentrate on forgiving yourself for being a human being that was badly hurt and needs more time to heal. You have all the time in your life to forgive because a relationship doesn't end when someone dies…it just changes.
Good luck Cass,
let me know how you're doing, Janice
Posted by Cass on July 23, 2000, at 0:29:24
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by Janice on July 23, 2000, at 0:02:28
> My only plans are to forgive myself for not forgiving her.This sounds like the voice of reason to me.
Janice,
What you said about forgiveness made so much sense to me, and your compassion made me cry. It was good to get it out of my system. I have always been an extremely sensitive person; it can be overwhelming, especially as a child, when you are growing up without guidance or a support system. I was all wadded up with anger, and you have truly made me feel better. I believe those words you wrote were genuinely wise. I was just about to go to bed, and I think I'll sleep a lot better now. Thank-you so much for responding.
Cass
Posted by shellie on July 23, 2000, at 0:43:43
In reply to Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by Cass on July 22, 2000, at 22:58:05
Cass, sorry you are feeling so bad. Once, about eight years ago, I went for a consultation with a psychiatrist who specializes in trauma and dissociative disorder. She asked me if I had grieved about what had happened to me, and that nobody had protected me. I was blank--I wasn't even sure what she meant. She said part of working through the trauma was to let myself be sad and angry about what had happened. It is only recently that I have been able to feel some sadness. I am not yet able to feel anger.
So, maybe your anger is part of your recovery process and even though it feels horrible, maybe it is necessary to moving on. As far as forgiving, first of all this may not be the right time--maybe you need to still be angry. Second, I think forgiveness is mostly really good, but there are some viciousness and cruel acts that do not call for forgiveness.
Probably, eventually when you have experienced enough of the anger, you may need to work on deintensifying (?) it, so that it does not pull you down. And I think it is possible to do this without forgiveness. For what it's worth, Shellie
Posted by shar on July 23, 2000, at 1:52:15
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful » Cass, posted by shellie on July 23, 2000, at 0:43:43
I think situations like yours are like triage. You take care of the most hurt first.
I have a feeling that the some of the first work to do is integrate yourself, hold on to yourself, honor yourself and your pain and your scars. Acknowledge how far you've come (bringing Little Cass with you). Takes time.
Now you have power that you did not as a child. You are strong and growing, and sad for the pain, and angry at your betrayers.
So, Little Cass is safe now, and Big Cass is powerful and will stand up to anyone who wants to hurt Little Cass. You, Cass, have wisdom, skills, knowledge, to protect yourself.
Once you firmly believe you will take care of yourself, honor yourself, I think things will take on a new perspective. To forgive or not? Who knows?
But, when you focus on your betrayers your energy is going outward to them. When you focus on your own healing, hurting, caring for you, the energy is going into you.
I hope this made sense.
Best to you.
Shar
Posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 6:07:06
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by shar on July 23, 2000, at 1:52:15
have to put my two cents worth in....
i have spent most of my life in a rage.. perhaps simular to your anger...
to make a long story as short as possible, after 5 years of not raging i see that it did 2 things for me. first the anger and the rage gave me enough energy to get thru the day. second, when i look back it is like i was stabbing myself with pain rage and anger everyday so that i could somehow get thru the pain rage and anger. i know, sounds pretty weird. but in order to try to make this post useful to you i wanna say the following things.
my life long rage seemed mostly directed at my father (who was violent towards me as a child and eventually killed someone, living the last 2 decades of his life in prison). forgiving him, all my life seemed an absolute impossibility. (i did pull this off finally when he died). but the upshot of my rage was my own self hate. my self hatred bred more and more anger, rage and hate towards the world at large. at some very painful moment i had the realization... i was becoming my father..(and of course i feared killing someone, namely me). (i am trying to make this short although it is an incredibly intense subject). after years and years of process (and many more to come i am sure) i have found only one thing (after i got the chemistry in my body straighten out) that can helped me transform the rage. you guessed it. i figured out how to have compassion for myself. and that compassion for myself eventually bred compassion for others. trust me, (and you already know i think) you can't just say 'i will be compassionate' or 'i will forgive'. it doesn't work. you have to grow your compassion for yourself a little bit every day, just like a giant potted plant, perhaps over many many years, and at some point it will be stronger than your rage. personally i think you already have a nice sized plant that you've been working on. anyways, i hope my post has not offended you, and that something, somewhere helps you thru all this shit. yona
Posted by Janice on July 23, 2000, at 22:52:32
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful » Janice, posted by Cass on July 23, 2000, at 0:29:24
hi Cass,
the worst thing is that not only do we inherit their genes, we then have to endure their abuse. (I'm assuming you're talking about your parents)
I hope you are feeling even a little better today.
Take care,
Janiceps how did you get that great italic font?
Posted by Cass on July 24, 2000, at 0:23:18
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by Janice on July 23, 2000, at 22:52:32
>
> the worst thing is that not only do we inherit their genes, we then have to endure their abuse. (I'm assuming you're talking about your parents)What do you mean? I'm confused.
> ps how did you get that great italic font?It's a mystery to me!!!
Posted by Janice on July 24, 2000, at 23:27:59
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful » Janice, posted by Cass on July 24, 2000, at 0:23:18
Hi Cass
Well just that we biologically inherit our parent's genes, which for me included my mother's hyper-kinetic disorder (ADHD). Then, I'm certain, it was her hyper-kinetic disorder that made her fall apart once she started having children, and have all her nervous breakdowns (depressions), and consequently neglect and abuse her children who were already genetically vulnerable to emotional disorders.
I guess just basically that it's a circle that keeps getting worse.
Their disorders cause abusive behaviour. And we inherit the disorders and then absorb the abuse.
I hope I make sense. I hope you're feeling better.Janice
ps funny, when I read what you wrote to me, it was in a very beautiful italian font. No other posting has been in this font. I thought you had done it. It is still in this font tonight. Maybe I have done it from this end, I don't know.
Posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 23:29:17
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by Janice on July 23, 2000, at 22:52:32
> the worst thing is that not only do we inherit their genes, we then have to endure their abuse.
>(I'm assuming you're talking about your parents)Here's a poem I've seen quoted in a few places from a British poet named Philip Larkin, I belive:
"Your parents fuck you up,
They don't mean to but they do,
They give you all their faults,
And throw in some just for you."Though J. may not have been on the mark about your current sources of unhappiness, there's a good chance it traces back to and echoes of your childhood roots and relationships (and your perceptions of them) with your parents. Generally seems to be the case from what I've read, heard, seen and experienced and certainly was for me.
I believe there was mention of forgiveness for whoever, above... A lot of it comes down to realizing that people are acting out whatever their interpretation of their script and relationships are/were and that often they are doing the best they can/could have under those circumstances. It's all about perspective.
Sante!
dj
Posted by dj on July 25, 2000, at 0:57:19
In reply to Re: Rambling, unhappy post: Feeling awful, posted by Janice on July 24, 2000, at 23:27:59
> ps funny, when I read what you wrote to me, it was in a very beautiful italian font. No other posting has been in this font. I thought you had done it. It is still in this font tonight. Maybe >I have done it from this end, I don't know.
J,
The ITALIC font in Cass's second posting above comes up the same way on my screen & I can't figure out how she managed to post it that way, either... go figure...
Posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 1:26:25
In reply to Janice's point.., posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 23:29:17
> "Your parents fuck you up,
> They don't mean to but they do...My mother really did mean to fuck us up. She was emotionally sadistic. She was trying to destroy our spirits. She was pathologically hostile toward any hint of psychological vitality or spiritedness. She would immediately start to assault my character and sensibilities when I showed any spiritedness. (And I'm not talking about obnoxious behavior, just healthy curiosity or spontaneity. I was not a hyperactive child, and I was really quite manageable. All of my teacher's saw that, but I later found out that she told some of them that I was not the same child at home, that I was a monster.) She was envious of any happiness that came our way and tried to destroy it. She often slandered us behind our backs to justify her hatred towards us (especially me, since I never gave up my spirit). She just did not have it in her heart to allow us to be happy since she was unhappy. And she had far too much pride to admit that there was something wrong with her. Something had to be wrong with US. She was perfect. If it wasn't all so deliberate, it would be much easier to accept. I do believe that MANY parents do the best they can, but the idea that ALL parents do the best they can is a myth. People like to placate others by saying that, but that kind of generalization makes it all the harder for some abuse victims to be believed and to get support. It makes us feel like we have to lie in order to get support because it is so socially unacceptable to say that a parent's abuse was malicious and deliberate. There is evil in the world, unfortunately. I have seen too much of it.
Posted by dj on July 25, 2000, at 2:12:29
In reply to When it is deliberate » dj, posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 1:26:25
> > "Your parents fuck you up,
> > They don't mean to but they do...
>
> My mother really did mean to fuck us up.. because it is so socially unacceptable to say that a parent's abuse was malicious and deliberate. There is evil in the world, >>unfortunately. I have seen too much of it.Cass, I know that there are psycho and socio-paths out there and some of them unfortunately are parents. And unfortunately for you, your mother was one, just as the mother of an ex-girlfriend of mine was...
Regardless, there was some twisted logic to such people's ways of dealing with their offspring and others. That's not to condone what they said or did but just to emphasize, as you well know, that that is the way it was and that is the way they operated and in their twisted psyches they may have been doing what they thought or knew best because perhaps they were so wrapped up in their own patterns of pain and abuse, they were just repeating them...
I don't know that it was so, this is just conjecture on my behalf based on what I've read and observed here and elsewhere...
Regardless, they did what they did and what happened to you, my ex-girlfriend and others did happen. As my ex used to say: "What is, is." And you cannot change that reality.
Some say that it is never too late to have a happy childhood. Meaning perhaps, that though you can't change what happened then, you can change what is happening here and now. That would seem to be the healthiest place to focus - on discovering ways to enjoy yourself here and now, despite your past. Living well is the best revenge!!
Be good to you, because if you are not it will be that much easier for others not to be as well. As Eleanor Roosevelt once said: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." So don't give it to them or yourself. Give your self the best you are capable of on a day to day, moment to moment basis and you may find that you are having a happy second childhood, and enjoying it much more this time around...
Just some random ponderances...
Namaste!
dj
Posted by danf on July 25, 2000, at 9:41:09
In reply to When it is deliberate » dj, posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 1:26:25
> My mother really did mean to fuck us up.
cass,speaking from a past where the dark drug me down & devours me.
you can not continue to harbor such negative thoughts !
it does not matter what she /they did. it was them & not you.
You need to find a way to deal with & accept them as they are /were.... good or bad. harboring hate only burns you.
you can not deal with the depression & anxiety until you forgive.
I pray that you will learn how to do this....
it is a key to recovery....
deep seated unresolved anger only burns US & consumes OUR lives. It does nothing to right the old wrongs.
Peace leads to our happiness.
I hope you find yours.
Posted by Janice on July 25, 2000, at 15:50:47
In reply to When it is deliberate » dj, posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 1:26:25
Hi Cass
Your mother sounds cruel and sadistic.
Not all mothers love their children, this is a myth also.
(Yes you're right) All parents don't do the best they can. That is a myth too.
Some parents commit crimes against their own children and get away with it.Cass do you have any siblings that can help verify your version of things (this helped me)? Like you, I learnt very early on how completely unacceptable mentioning my parents abuse was. It is an insane situation, feeling the blame for someone else's abuse. I think your anger could be very healthy Cass. I hope you have support and no one trying to rush you through this. I'm pretty well completely over it - just to give you some hope. Janice
Posted by shar on July 25, 2000, at 16:05:06
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate, posted by dj on July 25, 2000, at 2:12:29
Or, as Pink Floyd says in The Wall, "Mama's gonna make all of your nightmares come true..."
My take on the kind of abuse that Janice is talking about (sociopathic for example), is that the parent rarely tries to do best for the child. The parent is only interested in the child peripherally, ie, how does something about the child affect the parent?
I think the total focus of the parent is on the parent. Any event that does not flatter her (in this case, the mom) or bring her some form of notice, or make the mom special and noticeable, has to be blamed on someone. Who better to blame than the helpless children?
In the worst cases, the parent seems to go out of their way to sabotage the children, poisoning any positive events that occur for the child.
I don't think these parents operate with the kids in mind (try to do their best to be a good parent) even in a twisted way. They are self-absorbed, and view the children as bothersome underlings that should be adoring them (this is my take).
Shar
> > > "Your parents fuck you up,
> > > They don't mean to but they do...
> >
> > My mother really did mean to fuck us up.. because it is so socially unacceptable to say that a parent's abuse was malicious and deliberate. There is evil in the world, > >unfortunately. I have seen too much of it.
>
> Cass, I know that there are psycho and socio-paths out there and some of them unfortunately are parents. And unfortunately for you, your mother was one, just as the mother of an ex-girlfriend of mine was...
>
> Regardless, there was some twisted logic to such people's ways of dealing with their offspring and others. That's not to condone what they said or did but just to emphasize, as you well know, that that is the way it was and that is the way they operated and in their twisted psyches they may have been doing what they thought or knew best because perhaps they were so wrapped up in their own patterns of pain and abuse, they were just repeating them...
>
> I don't know that it was so, this is just conjecture on my behalf based on what I've read and observed here and elsewhere...
>
> Regardless, they did what they did and what happened to you, my ex-girlfriend and others did happen. As my ex used to say: "What is, is." And you cannot change that reality.
>
> Some say that it is never too late to have a happy childhood. Meaning perhaps, that though you can't change what happened then, you can change what is happening here and now. That would seem to be the healthiest place to focus - on discovering ways to enjoy yourself here and now, despite your past. Living well is the best revenge!!
>
> Be good to you, because if you are not it will be that much easier for others not to be as well. As Eleanor Roosevelt once said: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." So don't give it to them or yourself. Give your self the best you are capable of on a day to day, moment to moment basis and you may find that you are having a happy second childhood, and enjoying it much more this time around...
>
> Just some random ponderances...
>
> Namaste!
>
> dj
Posted by shar on July 25, 2000, at 16:13:48
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate: Narcissism, posted by shar on July 25, 2000, at 16:05:06
The previous message refers to Janice, but it is actually what Cass said that I was referring to. I got it mixed up as I read the multiple posts. Sorry! Shar
Posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 16:19:02
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate » Cass, posted by danf on July 25, 2000, at 9:41:09
> You need to find a way to deal with & accept them as they are /were.... good or bad. harboring hate only burns you.
>
> you can not deal with the depression & anxiety until you forgive.
>I try to deal with problems on a truthful, genuine level. I cannot pretend to forget 18 years of abuse overnight. I refuse to go into denial about what happened or pretend that I understand and forgive. I do not accept their behavior, if I did I would be just as guilty as they are. IMO, accepting deplorable actions is deplorable. I think people who believe that their abuser's behavior was acceptable end up repeating the same behavior. Afterall, if the behavior was acceptable, why should they not behave the same way? One should always remember the crime to prevent it from happening again to others. This is why holocause survivors speak out about their experiences. They know that people should never forget. Apathy is lethal. People are very disrespectful toward certain types of victims, child abuse victims being one. I have heard holocaust survivors speak, and I have never heard anyone suggest that they should, "Just get over it." It's true that I have moments of anger that I need to deal with somehow, but I will never believe that abusive behavior is acceptable.
Posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 17:38:16
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate: Narcissism--Cass, posted by shar on July 25, 2000, at 16:13:48
> The previous message refers to Janice, but it is actually what Cass said that I was referring to. I got it mixed up as I read the multiple posts. Sorry! Shar
Shar, that was really well put. I think you understand the syndrome really well. It's just frustrating for the victim because many people do not believe that that kind of abuse exists.
Posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 17:46:14
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate, posted by Janice on July 25, 2000, at 15:50:47
I do have siblings. At times they verify my version of things, but I have always been the most honest about what happened during our childhoods. I think they have fallen prey to social pressures more than I have. They have seen the kind of abuse and disrespect I've gotten for telling the truth (at times, they've been the ones to give it.) But yes, they have definitely been honest at times, fully owning up to what happened. This has been more so since my mother died and my father went to prison.
I really am inspired that you have almost overcome your anger. It gives me hope.
Thanks :)
Posted by Janice on July 26, 2000, at 19:59:40
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate » Janice, posted by Cass on July 25, 2000, at 17:46:14
I'm really sorry you've had to experience this. Not only did you endure abuse for 18 years, it was during the most impressionable time of your life and from the people that are suppose to love you the most. What helped me the most Cass (I may be saying something really obvious-please excuse me if I am) was talking about it to people that knew how to listen, which for me was my two brothers and my psychiatrist. I would tell them exactly what I thought happened (my brothers) and they would verify it for me, 'yes Janice, this happened', or 'yes, Janice, I believe you'. Admitting the unadmittable, saying the unsayable …. It wore itself out. The waves of anger became fewer and further between. Have you heard of EMDR therapy? I have heard it can be very helpful to process traumatic memories. The best of luck to you Cass, Janice
Posted by dj on July 26, 2000, at 22:13:35
In reply to Re: When it is deliberate, posted by Janice on July 26, 2000, at 19:59:40
> This poem was written by Mother Teresa and is
> engraved on the wall of her home for children
> in Calcutta.
>
> ¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤o¤º°`°º¤o¤º°`°º¤o
>
> People are often unreasonable, illogical,
> and self-centered;
> Forgive them anyway.
>
> If you are kind, People may accuse you
> of selfish, ulterior motives;
> Be kind anyway.
>
> If you are successful, you will win some
> false friends and some true enemies;
> Succeed anyway.
>
> If you are honest and frank,
> people may cheat you;
> Be honest and frank anyway.
>
> What you spend years building, someone
> could destroy overnight;
> Build anyway.
>
> If you find serenity and happiness,
> they may be jealous;
> Be happy anyway.
>
> The good you do today,
> people will often forget tomorrow;
> Do good anyway.
>
> Give the world the best you have,
> and it may never be enough;
> Give the world the best you've got anyway.
>
> You see, in the final analysis,
> it is between you and God;
> It was never between you and them anyway.Easy to note. Hard to accept, at times. But, something to ponder nevertheless...and perhaps in time it will all make some sense or you will get some deeper relief from the senslessness of it all...
As my Celtic brethern toast, Cass, "May the most that you wish for be the least that you achieve."
Namaste!
dj
Posted by Cass on July 27, 2000, at 1:18:39
In reply to A thought from Mother Teresa..., posted by dj on July 26, 2000, at 22:13:35
The therapy appointment was at 10:00 not 11:00. I got mixed up. I was desperate for that appointment, but they did fit me in in a couple days. The recptionist was really nice about it and said she knew I wasn't like that. She kept apologizing even though I was the one who made the mistake. It was sweet. I like my doc's office a lot, and, yes, I do still have a crush on him.
> > This poem was written by Mother Teresa and is
> > engraved on the wall of her home for children
> > in Calcutta.
> >
> > ¤º°`°º¤o,,,,o¤º°`°º¤o¤º°`°º¤o¤º°`°º¤o
> >
> > People are often unreasonable, illogical,
> > and self-centered;
> > Forgive them anyway.
> >
> > If you are kind, People may accuse you
> > of selfish, ulterior motives;
> > Be kind anyway.
> >
> > If you are successful, you will win some
> > false friends and some true enemies;
> > Succeed anyway.
> >
> > If you are honest and frank,
> > people may cheat you;
> > Be honest and frank anyway.
> >
> > What you spend years building, someone
> > could destroy overnight;
> > Build anyway.
> >
> > If you find serenity and happiness,
> > they may be jealous;
> > Be happy anyway.
> >
> > The good you do today,
> > people will often forget tomorrow;
> > Do good anyway.
> >
> > Give the world the best you have,
> > and it may never be enough;
> > Give the world the best you've got anyway.
> >
> > You see, in the final analysis,
> > it is between you and God;
> > It was never between you and them anyway.
>
> Easy to note. Hard to accept, at times. But, something to ponder nevertheless...and perhaps in time it will all make some sense or you will get some deeper relief from the senslessness of it all...
>
> As my Celtic brethern toast, Cass, "May the most that you wish for be the least that you achieve."
>
> Namaste!
>
> dj
Posted by Janice on July 28, 2000, at 22:24:50
In reply to Missed my therapy appointment today, posted by Cass on July 27, 2000, at 1:18:39
I like my doc's office a lot, and, yes, I do still have a crush on him.
>
I had a terrible crush on my psychiatrist. > It's a good omen for good therapy (i think). So is liking his office. Good luck at your next appointment. Janice
Posted by shar on July 28, 2000, at 23:11:16
In reply to Re: Missed my therapy appointment today, posted by Janice on July 28, 2000, at 22:24:50
I was sorry to hear about you missing your appt.
That can be so frustrating! Glad they could get you in relatively soon!
Shar
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