![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 74. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sara T on June 18, 2000, at 23:02:26
In reply to Re: More on Little Professor Syndrome ..., posted by dj on June 18, 2000, at 21:07:46
> >
> > You must feel a bit relieved to have a better >idea of yourself dj,
> >
> Janice,
>
> I wouldn't go so far to say I have Asperger's Syndrome,particularly after reading the NY Times article and Sara's very eloquent, insightful and informative discussion of it and her son's condition. However, I do recognize in myself some of the sensitivities that both outline, just to a much lesser degree.
>
dj -
Did you think you might be AS? Actually I was surprised to see a post about that article.Have you ever read a book called SHADOW SYNDROMES? Their is a great discussion in that book in a chapter called "Shy Gorillas" which talks about people who don't have the full blown syndrome of autism or AS, but who would be considered eccentric. They are the people on the edges, but also often quite productive and creative.
Given the chance to hold forth on his interests, my son can be quite social actually. Other kids seems to like him and they come to him because of his extraordinary store of knowledge. Outside of that though, he doesn't seem to care much about whether or not he's with people. Proximity to others actually makes him rather irritable and overloaded and he starts to "stim". That is to spin, or flap, or make some other repetitive movements. I've heard adult AS persons say they still do that, although many have learned to control it.
Sara T.
Posted by dj on June 19, 2000, at 2:28:12
In reply to Re: More on Little Professor Syndrome ... » dj, posted by Sara T on June 18, 2000, at 23:02:26
>
> dj -
> Did you think you might be AS?
>
> Proximity to others actually makes him rather irritable and overloaded and he starts to "stim". That is to spin, or flap, or make some other repetitive movements. I've heard adult AS persons say they still do that, although many have learned to control it.
>
> Sara T.Sara,
Thanks again for some more thoughtful comments. Though I don't think I have AS, certainly not in a full blown way, I certainly could have the Shadow Syndrome (do u know who the author of that book is?, sounds interesting...), particularly when feeling stressed, which is when I (and we according to research I've read on social styles) often fall back to our most basic and not always best habits and instincts.
Many would and doubtless do consider me eccentric, as I am certainly not conventional. Whichever way the crowd is going is likely to be the opposite of my destination, in most cases. I certainlyn don't and never have (that I'm aware of) "stimmed", other than to repeatly vibrate a pencil or tap my foot, but generally not to excess and I am conscious (through learning) of aversive and encouraging social cues, though I've been known to ignore them more than many...
I can and do get edgy if I am in one spot too much, particularly if there is a crowd of folks about, if I am not totally absorbed in what I am doing. I was once told after an interview that if I was asked what time it was, I might respond by telling them how the watch was made or perhaps the theory of time. I can overdo it when it comes to information and my walls are plastered with quotes, articles, comics and pictures to a degree that others sometimes find over-stimulating. To me it's just mental wallpaper and as a friend once remarked - a model of my mind.
Truly I am more of an info-junkie than a people person as a get bored very quickly with folks or situations whom or which I don't consider stimulating and am quick to move on. However astrology tells me that, much of this is just Gemini traits... ; ), including skating over the surface of too much info...and diving too deep, sometimes...
Sante!
dj
Posted by NikkiT on June 19, 2000, at 11:15:47
In reply to Little Professor Syndrome - Asperger's - long..., posted by dj on June 18, 2000, at 11:06:29
I can't give a wonderful, elequent answer in the way you ahve been getting...
But, I've done a fair amount of reading and stuff on various forms of Autism, as my 7 year old nephew is quite severly autistic.
Once learning the basics, I can see autistic traits in so many members of my family, and also in friends... Someone else once said that the same as I ahve found - That most programmers have autistic tendencies.. and boy, I know alot of programmers, and they display alot of the characteristics.
No help... but mild forms are more commmon than we think - I can even see bits in me at times!!
Posted by dj on June 19, 2000, at 21:56:35
In reply to Re: Little Professor Syndrome - Asperger's - long..., posted by NikkiT on June 19, 2000, at 11:15:47
> I can't give a wonderful, elequent answer in the way you ahve been getting...
>Nikki, if you spent as much time and money as I have on learning and unlearning good and bad habits, in writing and life, you would probably be more eloqent than I. However, you are perfectly eloquent writing the way you do. I still get your core comments.
> ..I can see autistic traits in so many members of my family, and also in friends... Someone else once said that the same as I ahve found - That most programmers have autistic tendencies.. and boy, I know alot of programmers, and they display alot of the characteristics.
>I meant to mention in my previous note that stimming is probably what Bill Gates does. He's noted for being somewhat anti-social and for rocking away when discussion is going on around him and for being rude... ; ), and it hasn't stopped him a bit, from making lots of money and headlines.
> No help... but mild forms are more commmon than we think - I can even see bits in me at >times!!I think we all have tendencies toward all traits and some are just more defined and predominant in some of us, and even more so when stressed...we hold all possibilities within our grasps - the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful and so on and so forth...
Posted by Janice on June 19, 2000, at 23:57:20
In reply to Re: More on Little Professor Syndrome ..., posted by dj on June 18, 2000, at 21:07:46
so you like to know what is coming and what is expected, and what your role is? And to feel competent.
So you're probably completely not pretencious.
The Glenn Gould film I told you about was actually not a movie, it was a documentary with Glenn Gould in it. if you like music, if you like interestingly done movies, if you are interested in AS, if you want a bit of entertainment, RENT IT dj.
Janice
My uncle who very definately has Aspergers is very eccentric. He has a room in his house just for his socks. Last I heard he's been rotating them (he is worried about sun damage). He eats the same thing every day. The good part about him is his generousity (Do you know if this is a characteristic of the disorder?). He had a great job of high responsibility. What about depression, do you know if it often accompanies AS?
Posted by dj on June 20, 2000, at 8:30:31
In reply to dj…, posted by Janice on June 19, 2000, at 23:57:20
> so you like to know what is coming and what is expected, and what your role is? And to feel competent.
>Don't we all? Some of us perhaps more than others...
> So you're probably completely not pretencious.
Try not to be, and I have my moments...
>
> The Glenn Gould film ... RENT IT dj.Don't have a TV, so have to rely on friends. However, never been drawn to G. Gould
>generousity (Do you know if this is a >characteristic of the disorder?). He had a great >job of high responsibility. What about >depression, do you know if it often accompanies >AS?
Every thing I know about it is what I've read in the articles I posted and the comments I made. I sent a copy of the Little Proffesor article to one of my brothers who agreed I sometimes show some of the traits to some degree and those are often under conditions where I'm feeling stressed.
As I noted in my last post I believe we all have some of these tendencies, they are just much more marked and consistent in those for whom it is labelled a syndrome, because they are that much further from today's mainstream definition of normal. In the article some of the AS folks referred tot he normals though they were just referring to the predominant norm, which didn't match theirs.
What sort of work does your uncle do?
Posted by Sara T on June 20, 2000, at 10:24:15
In reply to dj…, posted by Janice on June 19, 2000, at 23:57:20
> so you like to know what is coming and what is expected, and what your role is? And to feel competent.
>
> So you're probably completely not pretencious.
>
> The Glenn Gould film I told you about was actually not a movie, it was a documentary with Glenn Gould in it. if you like music, if you like interestingly done movies, if you are interested in AS, if you want a bit of entertainment, RENT IT dj.
>
> Janice
>
> My uncle who very definately has Aspergers is very eccentric. He has a room in his house just for his socks. Last I heard he's been rotating them (he is worried about sun damage). He eats the same thing every day. The good part about him is his generousity (Do you know if this is a characteristic of the disorder?). He had a great job of high responsibility. What about depression, do you know if it often accompanies AS?Janice,
Your uncle sounds great. Extreme social niavity is part of AS, and may or may not be behind your uncle's generosity. Then again, he could just be a good soul. AS people are also known for their great loyalty, and their adherence to what they perceive as "the rules". And yes, depression often is a part of AS, as is OCD, and high anxiety. It is a population at risk for suicide due to depression, esp. during adolescence. See my first post to dj.take care,
Sara T.BTW, what is the name of the Gleen Gould movie? Are there other documentaries about him?
Posted by Sara T on June 20, 2000, at 22:34:42
In reply to janice query best suited for NikkiT or Sheri T, posted by dj on June 20, 2000, at 8:30:31
> As I noted in my last post I believe we all have some of these tendencies, they are just much more marked and consistent in those for whom it is labelled a syndrome, because they are that much further from today's mainstream definition of normal. In the article some of the AS folks referred tot he normals though they were just referring to the predominant norm, which didn't match theirs.
>
dj - I thought you might be interested in this. It's a look a normalcy from the other side of the glass.Taken from THE INSTIUTE FOR THE STUDY OF THE NEUROTYPICAL website -URL http://ISNT.Autistics.org
What Is NT?
Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity.Neurotypical individuals often assume that their experience of the world is either the only one, or the only correct one. NTs find it difficult to be alone. NTs are often intolerant of seemingly minor differences in others. When in groups NTs are socially and behaviorally rigid, and frequently insist upon the performance of dysfunctional, destructive, and even impossible rituals as a way of maintaining group identity. NTs find it difficult to communicate directly, and have a much higher incidence of lying as compared to persons on the autistic spectrum.
NT is believed to be genetic in origin. Autopsies have shown the brain of the neurotypical is typically smaller than that of an autistic individual and may have overdeveloped areas related to social behavior.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Normal Disorders: 666.00 Neurotypic Disorder
How Common Is It?
Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10,000 individuals may be neurotypical.Are There Any Treatments For NT?
There is no known cure for Neurotypical Syndrome.However, many NTs have learned to compensate for their disabilities and interact normally with autistic persons.
Could I be NT?
Take the Online NT Screening Test.Papers and Abstracts
The Theory of Social Delusion
NT Social Skills Deficiencies: A Case Study
The Sal and Anne Test: Implications, and Theory of Mind
Riviera N. The Sal and Annie Test: Implications, and Theory of Mind. Journal of Neurologic Obfuscation. 1998(8):302-987
Pheromone of Social Delusion: Theory, Discovery and Primary Test Results.
DSN entry for Normal Personality Disorder
DSN entry for Pseudosimultaneous Awareness Disorder
DSN entry for Psychiatry Disorder
NT Theory of Mind
About This Site
This site is an expression of autistic outrage.About a year ago I learned I was on the autistic spectrum. Inspired by this discovery, I read everything I could get my hands on about the autistic spectrum. Much of it makes sense-- for the first time in 41 years, I had a description, albiet an unexpected one, that fit me.
But a lot of what I've found out there, mostly written by "experts" and "professionals", has been arrogant, insulting, and just plain wrong. My bête noire of the moment is finding my emotions described as "flat". As someone with considerably greater expertise in my emotions than the "experts", I can state unequivocally that my emotions are not "flat". They are different, yes, but they are most certainly not "flat."
Perhaps tomorrow I'll be fired up over being described as "lacking empathy". Or I'll be outraged at an exceptionally clueless "training" method being inflicted upon autistic kids. Or maybe it will be some new paper written by some "expert" from the perspective that neurotypical perception is correct, and my brain is a genetic mistake.
My brain is a jewel. I am in awe of the mind that I have. I and my experience of life is not inferior, and may be superior, to the NT experience of life.
Hence, this "Institute". Persons on the autistic spectrum and NT supporters are invited to submit papers to the Institute, and to share your observations in "Current Research" (the guestbook).
-muskie
Copyright © 1998-1999 ISNT@grrltalk.net.
Posted by Janice on June 21, 2000, at 0:20:49
In reply to Re: dj… » Janice , posted by Sara T on June 20, 2000, at 10:24:15
My uncle works one of the banks, although his dream would have been to be a farmer. This was not possible so he turned farming into his passion and hobby. When he would have to travel to Toronto for business conferences, he would come to my house almost every evening to work in my garden plot.
yes Sara, he loves rules. I always wondered if he was judgemental and perhaps conventional. So many family members seemed scared to tell him certain things, like one cousin refused to tell him that she is gay, another cousin got a woman pregnet and he wanted to try to hide this from him. But in the 34 years I've known him, he has never said anything judgemental - and his loyalty to his family has been matched only by my dogs to me. he never married.
from my limited knowledge and exposure to this syndrome, it's not bad. I guess most disorders get really bad when mood disorders get involved.
I believe that film was called "32 short films about Glenn Gloud". It won alot of awards, both here in Canada and internationally. I'm sure it's 'the best' film ever on Glenn Gloud, and I imagine the article dj posted above was written and based on that film. The writer also cowrote and stared in the film 'The Red Violin', which I know for certain was in the States and did well there.
like thanks for posting that other disorder. I've got it like so bad--ouch!
fondly the hyperchondriac, Janice
Posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 10:08:42
In reply to How to Diagnose a Neurotypical » dj, posted by Sara T on June 20, 2000, at 22:34:42
>
> But a lot of what I've found out there, mostly written by "experts" and "professionals", has been arrogant, insulting, and just plain wrong. ...
>
> My brain is a jewel. I am in awe of the mind that I have. I and my experience of life is not inferior, and may be superior, to the NT experience of life.
>Bang on!! Thanks for sharing that!!!
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 28, 2000, at 13:35:13
In reply to Re: How to Diagnose a Neurotypical, posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 10:08:42
I never remember hearing it in the press, but Ted Kozinski must be an AS. The bizarre interests, social difficulties and obsessions.
I know a lady that is AS. She looks like a model but is a social oddball. She alternates isolation with going to Singles retreats where she is the center of attention. Her verbal reparte is phenomenal. She specializes in finding alternate meanings in whatever you say. She is very sensitive to loud sounds. A couple of years ago she discovered computer programming. Now she is going to school for it but is in no hurry to finish. She had a brief marriage to her date rapist. She now dates constantly but always drops the guys who get serious. They can prolong the friendship(it has to be platonic) by hiding that fact.
Actually my brother has a lot of charactereistics. High IQ, amd socially clueless. He is a little farther up the continuum toward normality.
Posted by noa on June 28, 2000, at 16:19:38
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one..., posted by Johnturner77 on June 28, 2000, at 13:35:13
Interesting thought. I think with Kaczynski, though, there developed a co-existing delusional disorder (paranoia).
Posted by Sara T on June 28, 2000, at 22:54:34
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one..., posted by Johnturner77 on June 28, 2000, at 13:35:13
> I never remember hearing it in the press, but Ted Kozinski must be an AS. The bizarre interests, social difficulties and obsessions.
>I am a bit disturbed at this post. Ted Kaczynski was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He believed that society was controlling him and his problems were all caused by outside influences.
Although some of the symptoms may look the same, there are fundamental difference. People with Asperger's syndrome and autism aren't psychotic unless they have a comorbid psychosis which is not any more common in that population than in the general one. They fail to recognize other people's mind states, called by some "mind blindness", therefore they tend to be very niave. Their obsessions generally involve things, or objects rather than people or large complex societal issues. They just don't get it why someone would cheat or lie because to understand that would imply that you are aware of others having a mental state which differs from your own. Thus they cannot predict someone else's state of mind. Paranoids, however, falsely predict other people's mental states, eg.,that someone is out to do them harm.
Just on the basis of that I'd say Kaczynski probably didn't have Asperger's syndrome. Also, most people with Asperger's syndrome recognize their disabilities just like people with ADD recognize their impaired functioning. Whereas Kaczynski never believed he was ill.
It's this kind of misunderstanding of neurological disorders that fuels myths about people with Asperger's syndrome as being violent. It perpetuates inappropriate negative responses on the part of the larger society that these people live in.
Sara T.
Posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 2:19:27
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one..., posted by noa on June 28, 2000, at 16:19:38
> Interesting thought. I think with Kaczynski, though, there developed a co-existing delusional >disorder (paranoia).
Kaczynski's reasoning, from his published treatise on society and technology, was described as credible (though not the violence he took on himself to commit), logical and a genuine reason for concern by the chief scientist from Sun Microsystems in a widely reported cover story in Wired magazine, back in April or so (can't figure out which pile of mags. I've go it in).
As well, in a recent (May or June I believe) cover story in the Atlantic a fellow Harvard student from Kaczynski's era details how Kaczynski was very young and driven when he arrived at Harvard (from what would now be termed as a dysfunctional family), how the values he promotes are in line with the values he learned in his studies at Harvard and in some cruel psych. experiments he was coerced into participating in...
There is a reason for everything, ever action and every re-action and if we look deeply and carefully enough at causes and effects we can see them, without reverting to simplistic diagnostics, third hand or so...
As Einstein noted: "Make things as simple as possible and no simpler." If we all followed that dictum our society would be much saner and healthier. Instead we have a society addicted to mass trivia and idiotic, pseudo-events like: Survivor which demontrates clearly the thesis behind the brilliant book: "Amusing Ourselves to Death: by Neil Postman.
Posted by noa on June 29, 2000, at 8:18:09
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one... » Johnturner77, posted by Sara T on June 28, 2000, at 22:54:34
Thank you for pointing out the distinctions. I think what John Turner was focusing on in thinking kaczynski might have had aspergers is the shunning of stimulation and people, the high proficiency for math and science and home-made technology.
But the differences in "theory of mind" are enormous, as you point out. In aspergers, there is the absence of theory of mind, while in paranoid schizophrenia, there is almost an overactive theory of mind, ie, attributing intentions that are not really there.
I think, however, that there are probably plenty of folks who have been labeled as schizophrenic who might better be described as having something akin to aspergers, but they grew up before aspergers was widely understood by professionals. And, I imagine that to a certain degree, there might be individuals with aspergers who were misunderstood and mistreated because they were different, who subsequently developed feelings of paranoia based on their very real experiences of being picked on by peers and treated harshly by teachers and others. But I suspect that it would be the extremely rare occurence that this would develop into a full blown fixed paranoid delusional system, unless such a psychotic disorder was in the cards for them anyway, separate from the aspergers.
Posted by Johnturner77 on June 29, 2000, at 8:43:21
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one... » Johnturner77, posted by Sara T on June 28, 2000, at 22:54:34
>
> Just on the basis of that I'd say Kaczynski probably didn't have Asperger's syndrome. Also, most people with Asperger's syndrome recognize their disabilities just like people with ADD recognize their impaired functioning. Whereas Kaczynski never believed he was ill.
>
> It's this kind of misunderstanding of neurological disorders that fuels myths about people with Asperger's syndrome as being violent. It perpetuates inappropriate negative responses on the part of the larger society that these people live in.
>
> Sara T.Yeah your right. I will consider my knuckles rapped! 8>) And I really Americanized his name spelling, too. I didn't follow the story that closely. I seem to remember some rather eccentric childhood interests mentioned. A double diagnosis is still a small possibility. That would really be a double whammy, wouldn't it.
Posted by Sara T on June 29, 2000, at 12:14:49
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one..., posted by Johnturner77 on June 29, 2000, at 8:43:21
> >
> Yeah your right. I will consider my knuckles rapped! 8>) And I really Americanized his name spelling, too. I didn't follow the story that closely. I seem to remember some rather eccentric childhood interests mentioned. A double diagnosis is still a small possibility. That would really be a double whammy, wouldn't it.Thanks John,
I'm probably over sensitive on this issue since my son has Asperger's. My apology for getting on my high horse. And yes, that would be a double whammy!!
Noa - you are correct that many who were dx'd in the past were dx'd incorrectly as Atypical Schizophrenia - or with Schizoid Personality. As a result they weren't given the right treatments and really suffered.
Asperger was active at the same time as Kanner, who originally described classic autism. But with WWII, since Asperger was in Austria, his work was largely ignored until the 1980's when a British researcher translated his original thesis from the German. So it has been around for awhile but not in this country as a diagnostic category. However it has been in the WHO's diagnostic categories since the 80's.
Interestly, the word Autism was orginally used in connection with the withdrawal seen in schizophrenia. Kanner used it to describe the severe withdrawal of the children he described. Asperger, perhahps describing a set of higher functioning children used the term schizoid. There is or was a diagnostic category of Childhood Schizoid Disorder, but it apparently not very useful because it is so vague.
Nowadays, all disorders in the Autistic Spectrum are under the umbrella of Pervasive Developmental Disorders.
Thanks - Sara T.
Posted by harry b. on June 29, 2000, at 12:24:54
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one..., posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 2:19:27
> There is a reason for everything, ever action
>and every re-action...
>A take on a basic law of physics, applicable to
psychology and society.
>and if we look deeply and carefully enough at
>causes and effects we can see them, without reverting
>to simplistic diagnostics, third hand or so...I agree, with reservations. One constraint
is time, our very limited time. If, in my 50yrs,
I am unable to decipher the myriad causes and effects that
led me to who I am, how can we propose to know and explain
anothers psyche and motives? We can briefly examine the known
and supposed causes, the perceieved effects, and reach a conclusion.
That conclusion inevitably will fall short of the
reality and will inherently be subjective.Nature vs nurture is also a part of the equation.
Finally, we have the Chaos Theory. We are, after
all, creatures of the universe.Sometimes 'simplistic diagnostics' are adequate.
hb
Posted by Sara T on June 29, 2000, at 12:32:23
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one..., posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 2:19:27
> > Interesting thought. I think with Kaczynski, though, there developed a co-existing delusional >disorder (paranoia).
>
> Kaczynski's reasoning, from his published treatise on society and technology, was described as credible (though not the violence he took on himself to commit), logical and a genuine reason for concern by the chief scientist from Sun Microsystems in a widely reported cover story in Wired magazine, back in April or so (can't figure out which pile of mags. I've go it in).
>
> As well, in a recent (May or June I believe) cover story in the Atlantic a fellow Harvard student from Kaczynski's era details how Kaczynski was very young and driven when he arrived at Harvard (from what would now be termed as a dysfunctional family), how the values he promotes are in line with the values he learned in his studies at Harvard and in some cruel psych. experiments he was coerced into participating in...
>
> There is a reason for everything, ever action and every re-action and if we look deeply and carefully enough at causes and effects we can see them, without reverting to simplistic diagnostics, third hand or so...
>
> As Einstein noted: "Make things as simple as possible and no simpler." If we all followed that dictum our society would be much saner and healthier. Instead we have a society addicted to mass trivia and idiotic, pseudo-events like: Survivor which demontrates clearly the thesis behind the brilliant book: "Amusing Ourselves to Death: by Neil Postman.dj
Interesting stuff you cite. And you're right, of course, people are always more than any diagnosic category we would like to put on them. I did read, however, that Paraniod Schizophrenia was the "official" diagnosis they gave Kaczynski. Diagnostic categories are only useful in describing a set of symptoms. To reiterate, they don't describe the complexity of a whole person. Certainly not someone as brilliant and complex as Ted Kaczynski.Anyway, however logical any of his thoughts and reasons were, blowing up people is a little off the charts. Unless it were for some achievable goal, like in a war situation where it is part of an orchestrated strategy. NOT that I believe in blowing up people for any cause (although there are times....).
I agree, too, about Survivor. It's ,IMHO, boring to watch voyeuristic programs. I have enough of my own conflicts, thank you. I don't find anything particularly instructive or enlightening or thought provoking about any of it. It's more than trivia, it's like a version of Jerry Springer. And I hate those daytime shows! Setting up a conflict situation in the name of resolution, BS, it is voyeuristic showmanship. Just my opinion.
Sara T.
Posted by Cass on June 29, 2000, at 14:57:56
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one... » dj, posted by Sara T on June 29, 2000, at 12:32:23
I think Ted Kosinski had strong principles and ideals which vary greatly from the mall culture in which we live. Maybe there was nothing wrong with him at all. Maybe he is one of the few sane people, a person who has the courage of his convictions. I agree with a lot of Kosinski's ideas as summarized in the Atlantic article, but I don't have the courage to alter my life accordingly. The author and former class mate of Kosinski did not seem to think Ted Kosinski had paranoid schizophrenia. His unconventional ideas make us uncomfortable. His actions made us uncomfortable, too, so we label him and dismiss his ideas. I think we overlook a lot of destruction caused by industry, but we are not willing to overlook the comparatively little destruction Kosinski accomplished. I don't condone murder. These are just thoughts I have not drawn conclusions for. Please don't judge me for having questions.
Posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 18:14:52
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one... » dj, posted by harry b. on June 29, 2000, at 12:24:54
> Sometimes 'simplistic diagnostics' are adequate.
>
As Einstein said: "Make it as simple as possible and no simpler. Too often we err on either side of that spectrum individually and jointly...and the media only distort and accentuate those extremes...
Posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 18:26:37
In reply to Re: Asperger's...Ted Kozinski is likely one... » dj, posted by Sara T on June 29, 2000, at 12:32:23
>... however logical any of his thoughts and reasons were, blowing up people is a little off the charts. Unless it were for some achievable goal, like in a war situation where it is part of >an orchestrated strategy.
Ahhh, but it was an orchestrated and rational approach to attempting to create awareness about the potentially lethal effects of technology run amuk. And it was successful given the amount of coverage he received in having those issues seriously addressed by some foremost thinkers and public leaders in public forums.
And his methods distract from his message to some degree but who is to say he wouldn't have received the coverage he had, otherwise. Whether you agree with his means or not (and most rational and moral people wouldn't but some would...), his ends are commendable.
>
> I agree, too, about Survivor. It's ,IMHO, boring to watch voyeuristic programs. I have enough of my own conflicts, thank you ... Just my opinion.
>
And an opinion many others share. Check out http://www.adbusers.org (which did a recent issue on depression and the links with our media culture) However fear and other people's perceived fortunes and misfortunes sell to too many. As H.L. Mencken wrote years ago and it unfortuntately still is relevant: "No one ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the American people."Fortunately the converse also applies to some degree...
dj
Posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 18:29:47
In reply to Questions about Kosinski, posted by Cass on June 29, 2000, at 14:57:56
> I think Ted Kosinski had strong principles and ideals which vary greatly from the mall culture in which we live. Maybe there was nothing wrong with him at all. Maybe he is one of the few sane people, a person who has the courage of his >convictions. ...
Nice overview of the issues raised by K. and the article!! Edward Abbey's "The Monkey Wrench Gang" is one of the bibles of deep ecology which is the viewpoint that K. and many such folk come from. And perhaps they are right...whether their methods are, or not...
Posted by claire 7 on June 29, 2000, at 22:03:33
In reply to Re: Questions about Kosinski, posted by dj on June 29, 2000, at 18:29:47
What an amazingly interesting thread!! Issues I've wrestled with all my adult (18yrs on) life.
When friends object to spiking trees, I say, yeah, but we need extremes to make the rest of us environmentalists look reasonable, and to create a perceived need on the part of others to "compromise"; and we need extremes to call attention to the problem, a task that unfortunately usually requires violence or the threat of violence. I personally can't squash a spider, can't kill the snakes that haunt my potting shed, couldn't even in good conscience disrupt philosophy classes with anti-war demonstrations during Vietnam. But we need the people who can do these things. ( Jesus was one.)
Ted, I think, was too far gone to be taken seriously, or to be taken as anything other than a wacko, which is a tragedy. And I must admit I can't accept the idea of blowing off a relatively innocent person's hand. (Hitler, O.K. A few others I can think of, O.K. But a small cog in the apparatus, no.)
Note that this topic has, in my opinion, quite a bit of relevance to recent events on this board.
Posted by Cass on June 29, 2000, at 23:19:13
In reply to Re: Questions about Kosinski, posted by claire 7 on June 29, 2000, at 22:03:33
> Ted, I think, was too far gone to be taken seriously,
Just out of curiosity (I'm not trying to debate the subject), why do you think Ted was "too far gone"?Note that this topic has, in my opinion, quite a bit of relevance to recent events on this board.
I agree.
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