![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 10:43:20
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 10:30:29
Eric, I don't see it as so all-or-nothing. I think depression, and other issues related to the functioning of our brains, is very complex. You can come at the problem from different directions, and usually, in order to be effective, you need to be flexible enough to come at it from several. To me, the evolutionary biology perspective described in the article doesn't preclude a medical perspective at all. What bothers me is when people who see things from the psychological perspective only want to see it from that perspective, and dismiss the medical. Similarly, I think it is a mistake for someone who sees things from the medical perspective to dismiss the possibility that the psychological perspective might have something to offer them in their thinking about depression.
Posted by Brenda on February 26, 2000, at 11:15:08
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 10:43:20
> Eric, I don't see it as so all-or-nothing. I think depression, and other issues related to the functioning of our brains, is very complex. You can come at the problem from different directions, and usually, in order to be effective, you need to be flexible enough to come at it from several. To me, the evolutionary biology perspective described in the article doesn't preclude a medical perspective at all. What bothers me is when people who see things from the psychological perspective only want to see it from that perspective, and dismiss the medical. Similarly, I think it is a mistake for someone who sees things from the medical perspective to dismiss the possibility that the psychological perspective might have something to offer them in their thinking about depression.
What a trip! I'm new here and just read all the above comments. BTW - I'm a 19 yr. recovering alcoholic - no longer in AA, but still love the 12-steps. There was a time years ago if you were in AA you couldn't be treated for depression with meds. "They" considered it a "mood" drug, and consequently a break in your sobriety. So many people suffered. Personally, I feel there's a zillion kinds of depression. Situational, genetic, etc. Some can be overcome by dj's method - most however, probably need meds and therapy. I know mine does.
DJ - be well. I love the written word. When I was in AA "they" used to say "whatever works," and "don't fix it if it ain't broke." But if I had a broken leg, I wouldn't fix it myself. I think my brain was a little broken and the Zoloft helps with that - also, swimming, gardening, working, therapy, family, pets, and whereever you can find your joy.
Posted by dove on February 26, 2000, at 11:25:17
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 10:43:20
Well, DJ...
You have changed, you've changed in many ways since I first began reading your posts, your thoughts. You are so much angrier, scathing criticism for those who preach just as yourself.
You speak of compassion, yet there is none, you have none. You speak of an open-mind, yet yours is locked down, slammed shut. You speak of the road to enlightenment, yet the road is well travelled and the dead end is filled with empty shells. You speak of spiritual enlightement, yet we see no evidence. You have no proof, no material results, other than your own diatribe aimed at hurting people, the seekers you claim to belong to. How can you speak as you do and claim healing, claim to be better?
How many of us are literate, educated, and well read. The many influences and guiding lights you advise us to partake of, we have already done. The zen motorcycle of life is nothing more than empty baubles, been there, done that. Pop psychology? No thank you. Talking to exorcise your demons of depression, or OCD, or whatever is not the final solution, and for many, will never be the final solution. How can you explain the lineage of suicide that travels down, across continents and over 300 years?
You would have me bury my head in empty words, empty philosophy, educate myself because you judge me ignorant of knowing myself? I shared my heart and thoughts honestly with you. I listened and read with compassion, and so did the rest. I don't think you see yourself with clarity if you think you are sharing your heart, or that you are speaking with love or compassion. Your words have not been kind nor humble, which are the tenets of certain beliefs you subscribe to, the same tenets that have pulled you out of the mire of depression and so enlightened you.
You have essentially spit on all of us that have been your companions in this journey. Why?
dove
Posted by Katie on February 26, 2000, at 18:49:23
In reply to Good-byes to DJ, posted by dove on February 26, 2000, at 11:25:17
Hmmm, me thinks DJ might benefit by seeing a good psychiatrist and taking some heavy-duty psychotrophic medications.
Posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 19:16:00
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
> > ... It's unfortunate that a lot of people are just looking for the "magic" pill, when therapy or a combination might be more helpful.
> > dj, thanx for yet another, great post!CarolAnn
>
> Thank you, CA, for both reading and commenting. I'm weaning myself off psycho-babble because so many folks here seem focused on the 'magic pill' approach and I'm frankly very tired of reading about pharmaceutical panaceas, which in my view and based on my experience are a crutch that many never seem to let go of, because they are not willing to tackle the core issues and stay focused and obssessing on the symptoms and NOT the cause.
>
> Though my energy and concentration is still not consistently where I would like it to be (though it is generally), since I've used multiple conventional and non-conventional but scientifically sound approachs to dealing with my issues (as documented throughout Psycho-babble)I feel much, much better. And replacing the ADs with sound nutrition, a limited mix of supplements (Siberian ginseng, ginkgo biloba, lecithin, multi-vitmins) from trusted sources (Jamieson) as well as applying the principles J&B (see my posting to Janice, above) and others have drawn from the best of eastern and western medicine and therapies have played a large role in that rebalancing (as I most certainly felt out of balance when depressed and even more so, in different ways while on ADs).
>
You are going to have a long, sad, hard life DJ. Because you are obviously in severe denial about your depression probs. I dont feel sorry for you though. In fact, I despise people such as yourself because people like you give all us other depressed people a bad name. You spread poor information that lay people (those who have no experience with depression) oftentimes believe to be true. I dont think you will make a dent in your depression by reading self help books, taking siberian ginseng, taking vitamins, etc. You are a loser and a wimp. Because you dont have the guts to admit to yourself you have major problems with your health and go on the requisite medication(antidepressants).DJ, I suspect you will end up a scientologist or something. Probably making them lots of money. They love dummies like yourself and you sound like one of them. I dont feel sorry for you one bit DJ even though I know your health is not good.
Posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 20:11:12
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 19:16:00
Eric, while I understand your anger at DJ's post, I am almost as uncomfortable with the tone of your post, especially the name calling ("loser", "wimp", "dummies") as I am with DJ's posts.
Why must everything get so combative?
Posted by phillybob on February 27, 2000, at 1:38:41
In reply to Re: angry responses, posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 20:11:12
Come on people, isn't DJ's only fault here that he truly believes "that ADs are a crutch and that goes against the grain here." Yes, that can elicit some strong anger here, but can't we recognize that his statement is just his opinion?
I, for one, disagree with that opinion solely because it does re-inforce an attitude which will have more negative effects than positive ones. Too many people need medication and are helped by medication and can not live a life without it (and I'd suspect the increased use of meds in the world's greatly increasing population is a more practical way to address and often solve the problem of mental illness than not.) I think the clear majority on this board would agree that meds have a vital place in the treatment of our depressions.
With that said, I found nothing offensive in DJ's sermon because it reflected his experience which could easily be helpful to others here as do the posts on the other treatments, typically medications, themselves. Of course, the type of "treatment" that DJ suggests is not viable for many but could certainly be so for some.
DJ seems to have had a paradigm shift in his thinking about his depression, which due to my current med-free status as I "detox" in anticipation of an MAOI trial, is relevant to me.
While I am somewhat skeptical (my nature) of the true efficacy of his recovery having been in similar situations myselves, I respect that he is feeling better. My skepticism just wonders whether this good mood will parlay itself into mania or whether this good mood's cause has a little too much to do with his having met a gal of late. Either way, if he feels better for now or forever, great!
If he does not, the people on this board will be here for him. Negative posts aimed at DJ directly could alienate him from re-visiting here if times become rough again. And, even though tonight is my first visit, I know that this can be a very helpful place.
If you will read this at all DJ, continue not to respond in anything less than the positive tone (with one post's exception) that you have. Also, while experience for me has not shown that I can maintain recovery outside of meds (nor within, for that matter), I encourage you in your efforts to "be" sustained. But, please try to rethink your personal bias against meds for the benefit of those who do truly benefit from meds (everyone's illness IS unique).
Best wishes!
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 6:32:59
In reply to To DJ with love, posted by phillybob on February 27, 2000, at 1:38:41
Welcome, Phillybob.
I don't fault DJ for his own journey and where it takes him.
My objections to his posts was that he worded them not in terms of himself and his needs and his experiences, but used words refering to people here and implied that we are all unenlightened, that our use of medication is wrong. Had he spoken only about his experience, which is what he knows, I would not have any objections.
The other thing I did not like about his post was its grandiose and condescending tone.
Also, a bit of history: since DJ stopped taking meds, there have been several occasions when his posts have become extremely combative and hostile. For a while, he was banned from posting because of this hostility. It is true that since returning, which hasn't been very long, he stopped the name-calling nonsense, and seemed to have replaced it with accollades about the leaders of this new approach he likes. Hey, if the approach helps him, more power to him. To some, though, there seems to be a tone of worship about his posts. Which is ok; maybe he needs right now to put all his eggs in that basket. I know what the hopelessness/hopefulless rollercoaster ride is like, and I can relate to the idea of investing so much hope in something that might help me with my illness. I don't know if this is what is going on for him, but I do truly hope he finds in this new approach what he needs.
Posted by Deb R on February 27, 2000, at 7:17:11
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 6:32:59
Just wanted to say thanks for your help to me a while back when I was trying to help my Mum. I am sorry to see you go like this. Good luck!
Deb.
Posted by Eric on February 27, 2000, at 11:18:17
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 6:32:59
> Welcome, Phillybob.
>
> I don't fault DJ for his own journey and where it takes him.
>
> My objections to his posts was that he worded them not in terms of himself and his needs and his experiences, but used words refering to people here and implied that we are all unenlightened, that our use of medication is wrong. Had he spoken only about his experience, which is what he knows, I would not have any objections.
>
> The other thing I did not like about his post was its grandiose and condescending tone.
>
> Also, a bit of history: since DJ stopped taking meds, there have been several occasions when his posts have become extremely combative and hostile. For a while, he was banned from posting because of this hostility. It is true that since returning, which hasn't been very long, he stopped the name-calling nonsense, and seemed to have replaced it with accollades about the leaders of this new approach he likes. Hey, if the approach helps him, more power to him. To some, though, there seems to be a tone of worship about his posts. Which is ok; maybe he needs right now to put all his eggs in that basket. I know what the hopelessness/hopefulless rollercoaster ride is like, and I can relate to the idea of investing so much hope in something that might help me with my illness. I don't know if this is what is going on for him, but I do truly hope he finds in this new approach what he needs.Noa, Phillybob, accept the fact that DJ is against medication. He is going to have a very sad, rough life because of this. Let him go and dont bother with him. He is a lost cause. Perhaps ten years from now, after DJ has tried all the "natural" treatments and they all failed terribly and he has read all the self help books at the library, DJ might realize he was terribly wrong. Oh well, there went 10 years of his life down the drain. DJ is going to have to learn it on his own.
My point is it is not worth arguing with these sorts of anti-drug types. I have done it before and you get nowhere. Just let them go and let them stay clinically depressed for their whole life. DJ is against psych drugs and when people are like that you cant talk them out of it.
Posted by dove on February 27, 2000, at 11:24:56
In reply to to dj, posted by Deb R on February 27, 2000, at 7:17:11
dj,
I apologize for taking advantage of your taking leave to air my thoughts and pent-up feelings. I should have spoken sooner rather than later and I want to wish you well on your journey. We still care about you, and I think that is why some of us got kinda riled. But a fond farewell I send to you, and I will watch for your updates and visits. Take care dj!
dove
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 11:51:14
In reply to Re: to dj with kindness, posted by dove on February 27, 2000, at 11:24:56
Erik, I am not arguing with him about the merits of medication or no medication. I have no problem accepting that he is anti-meds, and have no reason to try to convince him. I can accept that this is the way he feels, and that is ok. My beef was with his way of relating to those of us who do see meds as helpful, using language suggesting judgment of us because we see it differently than him.
I don't think we can know if he will come back to meds or not. That is his journey to carve out. We each have our own.
Posted by phillybob on February 27, 2000, at 12:39:19
In reply to Re: to dj with kindness, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 11:51:14
Noa, thank you for the "welcome" and the DJ background. I did not properly give a nod to your feelings regarding the perhaps somewhat arrogant nature of DJ's post except via the connotation implied when I referred to his speech as a "sermon." Thus, I do somewhat agree with you on this.
I guess though since I did not know any history of DJ, this did not seem to bother me so much, and because I was not personally involved in any of this past history, it still does not bother me. At least I do not consider it to be (and still do not) worthy enough of a fault to address.
Yes, DJ is obviously heading in a brave (new?) direction. Yes, he might succeed. Yes, he might fail. Yes, he might land between the two. Time will tell. Yes, it is his journey. I just wanted to be supportive because if DJ succeeds (and there have been "DJ's" who have), then it will be encouraging to those whose nature might be similar to DJ's. A cursory glance at the posts on this board attest to the fact that different treatments work for different people and some not all ... and sadly ... some never fully do.
Me? I'll probably start that round of MAOI's on Wednesday. Anybody/place you can suggest for advice (diet, reactions, etc.)? [I'll post this as a new topic above.]
Posted by PL on February 28, 2000, at 8:17:02
In reply to DJ, posted by Renee N on February 26, 2000, at 1:10:44
A quotation from Robert D. Rayford of the John Boy and Billy radio show.
Posted by Janice on February 28, 2000, at 12:14:40
In reply to Re: DJ, posted by Thanks for your comments some clarification on February 26, 2000, at 3:07:53
hi dj, I don't know if you're still following this posting, but what the hell.
I still (well, in fact, have always thought) think you seem like a great guy. Thanks for sharing all your great ideas with us.
I wish you all the best with being depression free, and honestly believe there is much truth to what you've said. At most, we disagree on a few petty details. All I care about is that you feel better, and thank you for sharing with us how you have gotten there.
I know I've threatened this before, but this time I mean it, I'll be e-mailing you to see how you're doing. Or if you like, feel free to e-mail me janicedoucette@hotmail.com - how's that for a pretty common maritimer's name?
Good luck with the new woman you're interested in. Janice
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 29, 2000, at 1:05:48
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
> I'm weaning myself off psycho-babble because so many folks here seem focused on the 'magic pill' approach and I'm frankly very tired of reading about pharmaceutical panaceas...
I'm sorry not to have been around, but others have said most of what I would have, anyway.
Yes, the above was a put-down, which can't be condoned.
But being provoked (even to defend pharmaceutical approaches!) doesn't justify name-calling. That was something dj himself was guilty of before -- but did at least refrain from this time.
Bob
Posted by dj on June 7, 2000, at 14:06:45
In reply to DJ...some advice before your departure, posted by Katie on February 26, 2000, at 18:49:23
> Hmmm, me thinks DJ might benefit by seeing a good psychiatrist and taking some heavy-duty >psychotrophic medications.
I haven't been back for a visit since my last post on February 26, until yesterday, when I just did a quick scan of the latest postings to check for familiar names. Less and less of them...
I do appreciate the kinder comments that were posted after my flurry of wrap-up comments. The comment above from Katie is laughable and far off he mark. She might benefit from reading:
The Antidepressant Era by David Healy
------------------------------
Editorial ReviewsFrom The New England Journal of Medicine ® May 14, 1998 The Massachusetts Medical Society. All rights reserved.
Major depression is increasingly recognized as a worldwide cause of morbidity, mortality, and health expenditure. A study by the World Health Organization and Harvard University estimates that major depression is currently the fourth leading cause of disability worldwide.
An epidemiologic study of more than 40,000 people found consistent core symptoms and a youthful age at onset in 10 diverse countries. A committee of geneticists convened in 1997 by the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) concluded that there was sufficient evidence of a genetic basis to support funding large-scale molecular studies of early-onset major depression.
Yet David Healy's scholarly and provocative review of the antidepressant era concludes that "the discovery of antidepressants has been the invention of and marketing of depression..."
For more check out Amazon.com...
I'm still drug free but not anti-drug. Only anti-excessive use of drugs, which has always been my stance, though yes sometimes the bit of heat I've applied has distracted from any light (insight) I had to share. For those of you who felt I was being grandiose, perhaps a bit but no more than many and perhaps more justifiably than some. Or perhaps not...
I'm doing very well, overall, however you cut it and owe that to a great family and friends, good nutrition, paying attention to the needs of my mind, body and soul and being skeptical about dogma and genuinely curious.
Anti-depressants have and had their place. It's not a permanent one for me, never has been and never will be because I think for myself and only wish the same to you all.
Sante!
DJ
Posted by dj on June 7, 2000, at 14:20:01
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by Eric on February 27, 2000, at 11:18:17
> > My objections to his posts was that he worded them not in terms of himself and his needs and his experiences, but used words refering to people here and implied that we are all unenlightened, that our use of medication is wrong. Had he spoken only about his experience, which is what he knows, I would not have any objections.
> >
> > The other thing I did not like about his post was its grandiose and condescending tone.
> >
> Noa, Phillybob, accept the fact that DJ is against medication. He is going to have a very sad, rough life because of this. Let him go and dont bother with him. He is a lost cause. Perhaps ten years from now, after DJ has tried all the "natural" treatments and they all failed terribly and he has read all the self help books at the library, DJ might realize he was terribly wrong...
Just let them go and let them stay clinically depressed for their whole life. DJ is against psych drugs and when people are like that you >cant talk them out of it.Sorry to dissapoint you, Eric but you got it wrong bud. Perhaps if you were to go back and carefully read my many posts you would have a clearer idea. And perhaps not...there are none so blind as those who will not see. I know you believe you understood what you think I wrote but you misinterpreted it, bud, just as did a few other folks who were in blind reaction to what they considered to be my grandiose tone.
My tone was a bit condescending at points, that's my nature and the way I learned to defend myself growing up in a very tough town where sometimes you had to cut bullies off at the knees verbally if you couldn't do it physically. And sometimes when I'm misinterpreted, misread and misquoted I get imapatient and annoyed. That's called being human and has nothing to do with all these pseudo-psychological/scientific diatribes/accusations/ungrounded assertions that you and some folks like to fling about.
I like to deal with reality, not fantasy and that's why I decided to put my focus on real, animate human beings who I can see and hear with my own eyes and ears instead of mediated conversations which are more likely to go off track as some of these did...
So thanks again for those who wished me well.You all may want to keep in mid a Scottish toast which goes: "As good as you are and as bad as I am, I'm as good as you are as bad as I am." There are nicer and nastier ones, I thought I'd settle for the middle way, which is usually my path. Though I also believe in everything in moderation, including moderation (and medication for that matter too...!!!)!!!
Posted by Oddzilla on June 7, 2000, at 18:12:39
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by dj on June 7, 2000, at 14:20:01
Hi, DJ I think you left before I arrived but welcome back. I know people with out of the mainstream viewpoints are not always treated kindly here. (If you hang around long be prepared to deny that you are boBB :-)
I am very interested in the book you mentioned. It seems to me that mental illness is indeed being aggressively marketed.
I am neither for nor against medication either if it is taken voluntarily. Do you consider yourself to have been mentally ill and recovered or how do you conceptionalize what happened to you? What kind of diet and meditation are you using? Feel free not to answer-I'm always afraid of being intrusive.
Best wishes O.
Posted by Janice on June 7, 2000, at 23:38:21
In reply to Re-view Re: DJ...some advice before your departure, posted by dj on June 7, 2000, at 14:06:45
hi DJ,
It's great to hear from you again--I missed your presence here. I am so happy you're doing well.
It's now 15 minutes before my bedtime (have to keep my sleep regular to keep the rapid cycling in control), so I am basically just reading posts. I will read all your posts tonight and respond to you tomorrow.
My mother was just in Vancouver and said it has been raining like mad.
Janice
Posted by shar on June 8, 2000, at 20:13:45
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by dj on June 7, 2000, at 14:20:01
"As good as you are and as bad as I am, I'm as good as you are as bad as I am."
The Long Irish Version:
Here's to you as good as you are.
Here's to me as bad as I am.
As good as you are,
As bad as I am,
I'm as good as you are--
as bad as I am.S
Posted by shar on June 8, 2000, at 20:16:51
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by Oddzilla on June 7, 2000, at 18:12:39
> Hi, DJ I think you left before I arrived but welcome back. I know people with out of the mainstream viewpoints are not always treated kindly here. (If you hang around long be prepared to deny that you are boBB :-)
>
> I am very interested in the book you mentioned. It seems to me that mental illness is indeed being aggressively marketed.
>
> I am neither for nor against medication either if it is taken voluntarily. Do you consider yourself to have been mentally ill and recovered or how do you conceptionalize what happened to you? What kind of diet and meditation are you using? Feel free not to answer-I'm always afraid of being intrusive.
>
> Best wishes O.
Posted by Oddzilla on June 8, 2000, at 21:03:39
In reply to dj and Oddzilla = boBB (couldn't resist!) nm, posted by shar on June 8, 2000, at 20:16:51
:-)
Posted by dj on June 11, 2000, at 17:44:05
In reply to Re: To DJ with love, posted by Oddzilla on June 7, 2000, at 18:12:39
Thanks all for your kind greetings and Shar for sharing the correct version of that celtic (been reading up on my roots, great stuff celtic history) toast.
Oddzilla, if you read some of my back posts I can be provocative, that's my nature and nurture to varying degrees. Both play a role and that's the tricky part with depression, anxiety and all the related angsts that one can encounter.
I consider myself to have been very un-well and un-balanced emotionally, physically, socially and mentally. My entire being was out of whack, not just my mind. Some characterize that as major or acute depression. I characterize it as an unbalanced system and all my efforts, which are detailed to some degree from last February on back to the previous April or May in P-Babble files, have been to find ways to rebalance.
As the unbalance was multi-faceted so was my approach, as it continues to be. I don't follow any particular diet or regime but strive for balance and pay attention to what my body and mind are telling me. If I am feeling out of whack, as I have been this past week then I use whatever approachs I deem helpful. Rest,yoga and other exercise, spicy food, some socializing, intimate discussions, matinee therapy, some deep thinking and discussions have all played a role in re-balancing.
Systemic balance is what I believe it is all about and unfortunately for some of us our systems get out of whack easier than others. Though we have common themes we also have unique themes, stressors and symptoms and the challenge is to find the balance that works best and uniquely for each of us.
I believe medication can and does play a role for many and has been helpful for me, as well. And I also believe that the body/mind will heal itself if one works hard at clearing away the sources of dis-ease. This is not necessarily simple as the sources of dis-ease are often the mental and social enviromnents we create for ourselves and like fish in water it is seeminly hard to seperate ourselves from our environments.
That's where good counselling can help and drugs if carefully applied and monitored by the recipient in careful discussion with a p-doc. The book "Undoing Depression" which is referenced on Dr. Bob's book page and is outlined at http://www.undoingdepression.com is one of the better ones on this issue. "The Manual for Life" by http://www.pdseminars.com by Jock McKeen and Ben Wong also has some eloquent discussions about the role individuals play in their "depression algorithm". The Come Alive workshop I did with them twice last year and the Haven's "Disengaging depression" workshop were crucial in helping me accept the role I played in my interaction with my dis-ease.
And I continue to learn and shall until I depart this mortal coil, hopefully a better person from having learned more compasson for others and myself, which is the key, I have come to believe.
Sante!
DJ
> Hi, DJ I think you left before I arrived but welcome back. I know people with out of the mainstream viewpoints are not always treated kindly here. (If you hang around long be prepared to deny that you are boBB :-)
>
> I am very interested in the book you mentioned. It seems to me that mental illness is indeed being aggressively marketed.
>
> I am neither for nor against medication either if it is taken voluntarily. Do you consider yourself to have been mentally ill and recovered or how do you conceptionalize what happened to you? What kind of diet and meditation are you using? Feel free not to answer-I'm always afraid of being intrusive.
>
> Best wishes O.
Posted by Oddzilla on June 15, 2000, at 10:08:09
In reply to Oddzilla ...from Not-boBB nor shar, for shur! ; ), posted by dj on June 11, 2000, at 17:44:05
Thanks for your reply. I'm having a look at the websites you mentioned. I may go back and read some of your old posts. Hope you come back sometimes and let everyone know how things are going. O.
This is the end of the thread.
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