![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by Chris A. on May 16, 2000, at 10:49:15
In reply to Re: boBB is my friend..., posted by Mark H. on May 16, 2000, at 10:27:52
I came here for support and to be of what little support I can be to others. When one is suicidally depressed, political issues and flaming aren't of much help. I believe in free speech, but also have a great appreciation for gentlemen, respect for others, kindness, yes, and civility. There is a time and place to fight for your beliefs, but perhaps this is not the appropriate forum. Maybe I ought to throw my computer in the trash. The net is obviously no place for people in pain.
Have mercy, please.
Chris A.
Posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 11:13:05
In reply to Re: boBB is my friend..., posted by Mark H. on May 16, 2000, at 10:27:52
Mark, when I read your post, what I felt was that you were expressing something that you are probably not alone in-----the masochist's position. There are probably a number of us here who have such tendencies and who get something out of having someone like boBB rant and rave his outrageous conspiratorial theories and make us "THINK", ie, allow us to doubt our own desire for civility and reason.
I'm sorry, but this is not a radical philosophy discussion board, and I do not agree that boBB has been civil. To me, many of his posts feel like harassment.
I have stayed out of most of the discussion about Fred's ouster, because of the acrid tone that has pervaded much of it. Here is my opinion: I found Fred's plight to be painful, but he did get out of hand in how he expressed his frustration at not being understood. What he said was clearly beyond the acceptable boundaries of this board. However, I did feel he was ousted very quickly, whereas others in the past have had more warning. Perhaps another official warning would have been in order.
What puzzles me though, is how this issue of Fred's ouster has been commandeered by one angry poster armed with paranoid ideas and an axe to grind that is clearly beyond the scope of this bulletin board. I don't know if Fred is boBB is Fred Stone is whoever, but it seems the whole thing has just gotten out of control, especially since boBB has now gone beyond the threads that are ABOUT this subject and started harassing people like Abby who have disclosed highly sensitive personal accounts of their suffering. That kind of invasion into other threads to harass people is over the top. That is why I have broken my silence and spoken out now. I just won't stand for people feeling they can wield their obnoxious manners willy nilly to hurt people on this board.
As you can tell I am angry. I am enraged. I wish everyone would stop being so lightfooted with boBB and stop playing the masochist to his sadist.
Posted by dove on May 16, 2000, at 16:21:26
In reply to Re: boBB is my friend..., posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 11:13:05
I do not care whether boBB is two or five personalities on this board. However, I do care when someone is very rough, cruel, mean-spirited, and completely 100% out of line. boBB may have had a number of great thought-provoking points, but they are totally drowned by his brutish manner and crass voice.
Whether it's emailing a bunch of people with his agenda, flaunting his superiority and supposed knowledge against another HURTING board member, or swinging sucker-punches at the person who GAVE us this board; his attitude is reflected in his virtual actions and these constitute virtual and real *harassment*.
Harassment, by definition reflects an offensive or attack upon those who are oppressed, or vulnerable.
This is the behavior of a predator, not the prey. His threats are just that, threats, and should NOT be ignored. boBB is a hunter with an axe to grind, he is on the look-out for victims, otherwise, he would not respond with threats that identify him as such.
Where's those Cyber-Angels when you need one. Very sad indeed.
dove
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:34:55
In reply to boBB is a predator., posted by dove on May 16, 2000, at 16:21:26
> I do not care whether boBB is two or five personalities on this board. However, I do care when someone is very rough, cruel, mean-spirited, and completely 100% out of line. boBB may have had a number of great thought-provoking points, but they are totally drowned by his brutish manner and crass voice.
>
> Whether it's emailing a bunch of people with his agenda, flaunting his superiority and supposed knowledge against another HURTING board member, or swinging sucker-punches at the person who GAVE us this board; his attitude is reflected in his virtual actions and these constitute virtual and real *harassment*.
>
> Harassment, by definition reflects an offensive or attack upon those who are oppressed, or vulnerable.
>
> This is the behavior of a predator, not the prey. His threats are just that, threats, and should NOT be ignored. boBB is a hunter with an axe to grind, he is on the look-out for victims, otherwise, he would not respond with threats that identify him as such.
>
> Where's those Cyber-Angels when you need one. Very sad indeed.
>
> dove
************************
Here, here dove. Well said indeeed!!!Alan
****************************
Posted by tina on May 16, 2000, at 18:28:49
In reply to Re: boBB is a predator., posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:34:55
"Let him, who is without sin, cast the first stone"
> I do not care whether boBB is two or five personalities on this board. However, I do care when someone is very rough, cruel, mean-spirited, and completely 100% out of line. boBB may have had a number of great thought-provoking points, but they are totally drowned by his brutish manner and crass voice.
> >
> > Whether it's emailing a bunch of people with his agenda, flaunting his superiority and supposed knowledge against another HURTING board member, or swinging sucker-punches at the person who GAVE us this board; his attitude is reflected in his virtual actions and these constitute virtual and real *harassment*.
> >
> > Harassment, by definition reflects an offensive or attack upon those who are oppressed, or vulnerable.
> >
> > This is the behavior of a predator, not the prey. His threats are just that, threats, and should NOT be ignored. boBB is a hunter with an axe to grind, he is on the look-out for victims, otherwise, he would not respond with threats that identify him as such.
> >
> > Where's those Cyber-Angels when you need one. Very sad indeed.
> >
> > dove
> ************************
> Here, here dove. Well said indeeed!!!
>
> Alan
> ****************************
Posted by Cam W. on May 16, 2000, at 18:51:36
In reply to Re: Cops can lie!!!!, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 9:51:59
why?
Posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 4:48:51
In reply to Grip this..., posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 0:30:07
> The part where people with incomes in excess of $100,000 are allowed to define civility was unclear to me Mark.
I don't get this thing you have about class warfare. None of the poor people I've ever known (including those who were homeless, mentally ill, and/or both) was a fraction badly behaved as this Fred fellow, and certainly I've known some rich folks who weren't the politest. I have no idea what Fred's income is, if he has an income. He is not "acting like a poor person;" he is acting like a jerk, and contrary to what you may believe, most poor people are not jerks.
Socioeconomic class is neither an excuse nor an explanation for bad behavior.
> Please explain to all us us out here on the street why Robert Hsiung, MD, DRUG PUSHER
That would be a cool door plate. (Although I still think "PORN KING" would be cooler.)
Posted by grannybabble on May 22, 2000, at 13:49:58
In reply to Re: Grip this..., posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 4:48:51
>
> > Please explain to all us us out here on the street why Robert Hsiung, MD, DRUG PUSHER
>
> That would be a cool door plate. (Although I still think "PORN KING" would be cooler.)((((((((((((((((((((((((((Elizabeth))))))))))))))))))
Honey, are you off your medication? Mentally ill people (if you consider yourself mentally ill) often lack the insight to realize their comments are inappropriate. Please see your Pdoc soon!
Love and hugs-granny
Posted by Adam on May 22, 2000, at 20:20:04
In reply to Re: DR HSUING PORNO KING, posted by grannybabble on May 22, 2000, at 13:49:58
Irony can be engaging and provocative. Sardonic goading is a bore.> >
> > > Please explain to all us us out here on the street why Robert Hsiung, MD, DRUG PUSHER
> >
> > That would be a cool door plate. (Although I still think "PORN KING" would be cooler.)
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((Elizabeth))))))))))))))))))
>
> Honey, are you off your medication? Mentally ill people (if you consider yourself mentally ill) often lack the insight to realize their comments are inappropriate. Please see your Pdoc soon!
>
> Love and hugs-granny
Posted by boBB on May 22, 2000, at 21:21:33
In reply to Re: Grip this..., posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 4:48:51
I see were not yet ready to let flowers grow on this little battlefield...
Perhaps some time reading Chomsky would help you better understand the conflicts that arise over definitions of appropriate behavior. If you have no time for that, maybe watching such behavior on television (Married with children? Homicide? Most HBO flicks?)would be less threatening to you than witnessing it in an interactive forum such as this. Whatever. I trust you are not a person who would long remain in one of the environents such as south central LA where that kind of behavior is pervasive. And I doubt if you could long stand, as I have, in the midst of an angry racist mob, attempting to understand, or at least derail, their rage. I wonder how we can ever submlimate these emotions if we do not first accept them as expressive of some legitimate need?
For my part, I will stand with the radicals. My insight sometimes helps them find their way back into the community of civilized actors, and my experience sometimes allows me to help them better articulate their concerns in language the masses better understand.
... cause I'm not the only one.
I hope someday you'll join us,
and the wo~o~rld will live as one.
Posted by Adam on May 23, 2000, at 0:26:01
In reply to Hold me tight, but don't break me..., posted by boBB on May 22, 2000, at 21:21:33
The Chomsky Reader sits next to Karnow's Vietnam, a History on my bookshelf.
I can't approach their intelligence (Chomsky's a hell of a linguist, to boot), but I think both men would agree with me if I said the battlefield is a stupid place.
So what's the attraction?
> I see were not yet ready to let flowers grow on this little battlefield...
>
> Perhaps some time reading Chomsky would help you better understand the conflicts that arise over definitions of appropriate behavior. If you have no time for that, maybe watching such behavior on television (Married with children? Homicide? Most HBO flicks?)would be less threatening to you than witnessing it in an interactive forum such as this. Whatever. I trust you are not a person who would long remain in one of the environents such as south central LA where that kind of behavior is pervasive. And I doubt if you could long stand, as I have, in the midst of an angry racist mob, attempting to understand, or at least derail, their rage. I wonder how we can ever submlimate these emotions if we do not first accept them as expressive of some legitimate need?
>
> For my part, I will stand with the radicals. My insight sometimes helps them find their way back into the community of civilized actors, and my experience sometimes allows me to help them better articulate their concerns in language the masses better understand.
>
> ... cause I'm not the only one.
> I hope someday you'll join us,
> and the wo~o~rld will live as one.
Posted by boBB on May 23, 2000, at 1:10:12
In reply to Re: Hold me tight, but don't break me..., posted by Adam on May 23, 2000, at 0:26:01
Cover me. I'm gonna try to help this guy. Just keep there heads down if you can, but do what you gotta do. I want to get back alive.
(conversation overheard between medic and rifleman)
Posted by dls on May 24, 2000, at 14:02:28
In reply to Re: DR HSUING PORNO KING, posted by Adam on May 22, 2000, at 20:20:04
>
> Irony can be engaging and provocative. Sardonic goading is a bore.And "egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity" :-)
Posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:06:59
In reply to Re: DR HSUING PORNO KING, posted by dls on May 24, 2000, at 14:02:28
I think this thread is a good example of how this medium is not well suited to certain types of humor exchange. The thing is, it seems these types of exchanges take us from humor to hostility in a flash; we seem dangerously close to the edge here. What really is the point of this exchange anyway? What do you all want to communicate here?
Posted by claire 7 on May 24, 2000, at 19:10:43
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:06:59
>A great deal of humor, if not most of humor, is about hostility, anger, pain, and self-deprecation. It is, in short, a time-honored way of dealing with human discomfort. I'm afraid I don't understand YOUR point.
I think this thread is a good example of how this medium is not well suited to certain typesof humor exchange. The thing is, it seems these types of exchanges take us from humor to hostility in a flash; we seem dangerously close to the edge here. What really is the point of this exchange anyway? What do you all want to communicate here?
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 7:34:56
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by claire 7 on May 24, 2000, at 19:10:43
> >A great deal of humor, if not most of humor, is about hostility, anger, pain, and self-deprecation. It is, in short, a time-honored way of dealing with human discomfort. I'm afraid I don't understand YOUR point.
>
Claire, I guess my point is that this medium, electronic text, is not well suited for conveying the nuances of humor *because* humor handles the emotional material you correctly mention and because e-text is not able to communicate all the nuances and subtlies that convey intent, tone, etc.This thread seemed to me to be moving into that no-man's land in which the e-text starts to have a life of its own and people start to get hurt. Given some recent skirmishes around here, my intent was to make a plea for people to wary of this happening. That's all.
Posted by grannybabble on May 25, 2000, at 10:46:32
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:06:59
What really is the point of this exchange anyway? What do you all want to communicate here?
I wanted to communicate that it is unacceptable to
call names even if it was an attempt at humor. But
I also admit that I thought a "teasing" reminder was
kinder than a lecture on civility. So I guess you
just can't win sometimes.I also think someone should point out that there seems
to be a much lower threshhold of unacceptable behaviour
for people whose opinions do not reflect the majority
here.In the end it is just a matter of whose making the
judgement. Bob banned fred without a warning because
he 'believed' him to be a repeat offender. So being
objective doesn't go for much. Cyber transference
and counter transference reigns. Well, I do run on.Everything is going to be offensive to someone I suppose
And I will defend Bob against accusations of being a porn
king as long as my tired fingers can reach the keyboard.Gbabble
Posted by Mark H. on May 25, 2000, at 11:11:52
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 7:34:56
Hi Noa,
I'm trying to "talk" less during this archival period to see what I learn about myself and the interactions here. I'm certainly guilty of becoming far too involved and obsessive about our collective exchanges at times.
What I've noticed -- and I'll resist generalizing -- is that I spend too much time editorializing about external manifestations of my internal issues, and too little time here talking about myself, about what I'm experiencing inside.
I've always tended to teach what I need most to learn, and when I started inviting more dialog with self-identified schizophrenics here, it seemed obvious that I was only going to learn more and communicate well if they were willing to stop telling me about the dangers of electromagnetic energies and start telling me what it was like to be them. What I didn't immediately see is that I was and am doing the same thing -- clouding my hurt, my confusion, my issues -- by ranting about circumstances outside myself rather than talking about what it's like to be me. Often, it seems, the more hurt and afraid I feel, the less I want to talk about me, unless I really stop to think about what we're doing here -- in other words, just what you're asking.
Most of my adult life, in one way or another, I have been a tough and outspoken critic of injustice. I can get pretty righteous at times. What I want you to know is that I was hurt as a teenager -- that school administrators basically drove me to the very brink of suicide by punishing me for actions that were not illegal, just inappropriate in their eyes. Whenever you see me go for the jugular of situation in which I perceive injustice, you're really seeing a very frightened 16 year old Mark who is still angry that adults often ignore the law and the dignity of children. Often my rant, however superficially rational, is internally a jumbled mess -- a 50 year old advocate using his legal experience and knowledge to cover the hurt and shame inside and to punish some long-gone, worn-out school employees from the 60s who were wrong but doing what they knew to do. It stings like hell for me to write this.
Thanks Noa.
Much love,
Mark
Posted by Jennifer on May 25, 2000, at 12:16:28
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Mark H. on May 25, 2000, at 11:11:52
Well, I found you guys last night during one of my sleepless nights. I've read this entire thread and find that you are all quite different in personalities and tolerance levels. Sounds quite a bit like the rest of the world out there. It seems some think this thread may be worthless, however, I find an occassional discussion "off the main line" very educational. You get the opportunity to read people's personalities a little better, hopefully giving you a better ability to know how to understand them in their time of need. My best weapon for helping myself through the life I was dealt, is by making the choice to help others do the same. I'm glad to be able to participate in this discussion, even though I don't know who fred is. I guess my final point is that this thread seems to be at a point where little else would add value, but that's why we have the freedom to choose where we want to participate. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right, as long as no one is physically harmed by it (The old "can't yell fire in a movie theatre" saying). The fundamental right many forget, is that you don't have to listen to it...just clear your screen, and move on. I hope I never find a site where I agree with the opinions of all of the visitors. What a boring life that would be! Thanks to all of you for a great night. It's time for me to take a nap! Jennifer
> Hi Noa,
>
> I'm trying to "talk" less during this archival period to see what I learn about myself and the interactions here. I'm certainly guilty of becoming far too involved and obsessive about our collective exchanges at times.
>
> What I've noticed -- and I'll resist generalizing -- is that I spend too much time editorializing about external manifestations of my internal issues, and too little time here talking about myself, about what I'm experiencing inside.
>
> I've always tended to teach what I need most to learn, and when I started inviting more dialog with self-identified schizophrenics here, it seemed obvious that I was only going to learn more and communicate well if they were willing to stop telling me about the dangers of electromagnetic energies and start telling me what it was like to be them. What I didn't immediately see is that I was and am doing the same thing -- clouding my hurt, my confusion, my issues -- by ranting about circumstances outside myself rather than talking about what it's like to be me. Often, it seems, the more hurt and afraid I feel, the less I want to talk about me, unless I really stop to think about what we're doing here -- in other words, just what you're asking.
>
> Most of my adult life, in one way or another, I have been a tough and outspoken critic of injustice. I can get pretty righteous at times. What I want you to know is that I was hurt as a teenager -- that school administrators basically drove me to the very brink of suicide by punishing me for actions that were not illegal, just inappropriate in their eyes. Whenever you see me go for the jugular of situation in which I perceive injustice, you're really seeing a very frightened 16 year old Mark who is still angry that adults often ignore the law and the dignity of children. Often my rant, however superficially rational, is internally a jumbled mess -- a 50 year old advocate using his legal experience and knowledge to cover the hurt and shame inside and to punish some long-gone, worn-out school employees from the 60s who were wrong but doing what they knew to do. It stings like hell for me to write this.
>
> Thanks Noa.
>
> Much love,
>
> Mark
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 16:46:38
In reply to Re: Serious interjection (sigh), posted by grannybabble on May 25, 2000, at 10:46:32
Claire and Granny, I gotta say that I truly had no idea what was going on there---the posts were really confusing to me as to who was joking, who wasn't, who was reacting to whom, etc. Maybe it was my denseness, but I just had this feeling it was one of those wierd times when the posts take on a life of their own.
I guess I sounded a bit like the thought police or something, and I apologize for that.
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 16:55:06
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Mark H. on May 25, 2000, at 11:11:52
Wow, Mark. I think I was holding my breath while reading through your entire post, because the power and intensity you put into it was stunning. Wow. I think you are talking about the courage it takes to drop our guard, to move out from behind the shields we have used to defend ourselves against terror, to allow ourselves to know our selves. It isn't easy, when we have been hurt. You described the experience of powerlessness so well. It is the feeling of impotent rage, when we feel we are being overpowered and immobilized. A lot of adults have a hard time understanding that feeling in kids, that feeling of loss of dignity, of rage at injustice. I think it is possible, even when an adult or an adult-run institution needs to stand by its rules, to do so in a way that preserves the dignity of the kids, but not enough adults know how to do this.
Thank you for trusting us with what you disclosed.
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 17:01:26
In reply to New to site, posted by Jennifer on May 25, 2000, at 12:16:28
Hi, Jennifer. Welcome. I don't mean to convey the desire to have only majority opinions expressed. I love the exchange of differing ideas. And, I know some are passionate about their thoughts. This thread just had a strange feel to it, like it was totally unclear who was joking, who was saying what, who was reacting to whom, etc. I just felt the need to comment on it, especially since just a while back, we had a tumult where things got nasty. That is one thing that is different about the culture of this board. We do draw a line where many other boards don't, and this is based upon Dr. Bob's conditions for participating here. It is not a ban on minority opinions or radical ideas. It is a ban on viciousness. What happened so far in this thread was not vicious, it just had the feel of e-text heading into escalating misunderstandings.
Oh well. I did not intend my post to be a "thought police" citation. If it sounded like one, I apologize.
Posted by Adam on May 25, 2000, at 21:12:17
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 16:55:06
I think "Judge not, lest you be judged" is one of the best rules to live by. I don't think, however, it means "never criticize because you're a shmuck too." Jesus had plenty to say to those who he thought were in the wrong, after all. I think it just means speak up when you think something isn't kosher, and be prepared to examine your own faults in the process.Now, rather than be oblique, I'll get to the point. "Porno King" is clearly meant to be ironic. I don't get the "he's a drug pusher but I'll defend poor Dr. Bob from Porno King any day" thing. Let's be realistic, here. Soemone got jumped on in a couple other threads, for expressing pretty inoccuous oppinions or perceptions, in a way that struck me as wrong. This Porno King stuff seems to be just an extension of that. When I know I've done something like that, I apologize. If I'm doing t again, I'll apologize again. Granny, I know you can be a sweet person. It's not at all clear to me what the complaint is about here, to be honest, but I think in this case a mistake was made.
Now BoBB, unless I am totally misreading some of your posts, obviously you have been through some heavy stuff. You deserve respect and sympathy for what you have endured. You were put on the battlefield and made the unwilling if not unwitting accomplice in an unjust war, one of the USA's most disgusting historical chapters. The fat men in Washington who sent you and other innocent men there, the McNamara's and sundry Commanders in Chief, shall live in infamy forever, I hope. You obviously bring with you a sense of justice and righteousness, but the confusing and/or pugilistic delivery can make it difficult, either to express sympathy or to engage in debate. I confess I have no idea what your story about the medic and the rifleman is supposed to do except make me feel badly. If my references to battles touched a soft nerve, and I was insensitive, then of course I want to know about it. Perhaps that's what you wanted. But frankly, forgive my simplicity, I haven't a real clue.
Posted by boBB on May 25, 2000, at 22:33:32
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Adam on May 25, 2000, at 21:12:17
Close, but no cigar, Adam. I'm not a 'nam vet. I am the right age, but I am a drug war vet. I am a veteran of some other civil wars. For some reason, I tend to gravitate to the scene of the crimes, and the tendency seems to have started before I was old enough to do anything about - when I was still in my mamma's arms.
It is being close to these battles but being exempt because of my race and social privilage that now compels me to consider myself a party to a war most people would rather ignore. In that context, there are no and will be no apologies offered for my very accurate analysis. I said the same thing in a "secret identity" post below - I don't mean to call Robert Hsiung a bad person when I call him a drug pusher. Some of my best friends are drug pushers and some of them are in jail. It is knowing that two or three million americans will fall asleep tonight in prison, and many of them are there because of the way congress politicizes the pharmacuetical market; that is what motivates my swift mightier-than-a-sword writing.
This I have said before - many people here would rather the fight not break out on thier street, but it is here. I want to end the fight, but not by surrender. The medic post was specific to the role I played in the fred exchange, but reflects a larger situation. People are getting hurt in this war, and I want to help them by bringing the war to the end. The fact that I am fighting over this one stupid foxhole does not make me solipsist, it just means I am a typical foot soldier responsible for a patheticaly measly little part of a bigger struggle. I know my place on the battlefield, I know my mission and I know the risks entailed.
I am certain ECHELON, the international electronic intelligence gathering contractor, can identify me. I am not famous, I just have a certain edge that shows wherever I flash it. If I told you places, you might shudder with recognition. I don't identify myself here mostly so I won't have to shut up. Otherwise I would be confronted in my daily life by my stances here and elsewhere. Somebody likely knows. This isn't paranoia, it is low-intensity warfare. If it comes down to it, the daily normal job goes and this fight over the franchise to medicine and over the human right to have food and safe shelter will always be my main mission in life. I will give my life in a heartbeat to prosecute that war. I hope I am making myself clear. I am not suffering from post traumatic trauma. I am suffering, by choice or by necessity, in the trauma that afflicts millions of people in America every day. I hope those on this site, from Dr. Bob down to the most troubled individual, and including those of who readily admit to social consciousness can recognize this for what it is.
Posted by Adam on May 25, 2000, at 23:34:26
In reply to Re: Way serious, posted by boBB on May 25, 2000, at 22:33:32
Well, I don't know what to say except I agree 100%that the drug war, as it is being fought, is wrong. It's wrong to criminalize addiction based on chemical structure, and it's also wrong to incarcerate responsible users.I think the war on drugs could be fought rather peacefully by simply legalizing and regulating them. There aren't too many bootleggers in Columbia, probably, just other people doing various things to capitalize off of a new contraband economy, and as a result a lot of innocent people get hurt. It will take a long time before some people understand why legalization is probably the best solution to a sad fact about the human condition, but nobody needs to get killed over it.
I don't know about this ECHELON stuff. One could understandably speculate that you are nowhere near the person you (without revealing too much) say you are. I'll take you on your word, since it doesn't hurt me one way or the other. Sorry about the Vietnam mixup. My mistake for not reading thoroughly. This does change my view somewhat. I have sympathy for the impressionable conscriptee, and for those who have a gun put to their head. I don't know quite what to make of one who seeks out deadly conflict, though, even if it is in the name of defending the defenseless. Ghandi accomplished an awful lot without aggression, even though he and those who followed him were sometimes met with deadly force. He was killed anyway, but accomplished so much before the people who listened to him decided, after they had defeated a common enemy peacefully, couldn't bear peace with themselves. They're still fighting, and getting nowhere.
This is the end of the thread.
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