![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by Cam W. on May 16, 2000, at 7:03:37
In reply to I'm BA~A~CK!!!!! Cops can lie!!!!, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 2:46:07
> Maybe you can set up some new blocking methods, but guess what? I can get free ISP numbers that will require you to block all of AOL, all of MSN, and all of several other nationwide free internet providers.
>
> Then guess what? I can travel the country, living from my backpack, going from library to library using public systems, infiltrating University computer labs, whatever it takes.
I am simply using the resources you offer in a legal struggle for free open dialogue. Kill me if you can.
I am here to teach civic lessons!boBB - Do you really want to destroy a site that helps so many people, just because you have a cause (agenda?) you want heard?
(sigh!) - Cam
Posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 9:51:59
In reply to Re: I'm BA~A~CK!!!!! Cops can lie!!!!, posted by Cam W. on May 16, 2000, at 7:03:37
yes
Posted by harry b. on May 16, 2000, at 10:19:37
In reply to I'm BA~A~CK!!!!! Cops can lie!!!!, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 2:46:07
> Well, guess what? I lied. I'm back and I will continue to dog this site until I get the sense that open free speech is tolerated here.
>boBB- I'm glad to see that you are still here. Your
'agenda' is a noble crusade that you feel strongly
about. I applaud your commitment.Your posts in the past have been erudite, sometimes
funny, but always thought provoking. You were respected
and even admired here. I would like to read more
posts from you in that vein.I must disagree with your current attacks and stated
methods to further your cause. Cyber-terrorism is
the realm of miscreants. If you want to get your
message out, if you want to rant and rave, if you
want to educate and send out a wake-up call, then
please use the venue you've used in the past. There
IS a lot of latitude here for differing opinions.Personal attacks and vendettas will accomplish little.
Regards,
harry
Posted by Mark H. on May 16, 2000, at 10:27:52
In reply to Grip this..., posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 0:30:07
...and I consider him my conscience as well. I don't always agree with boBB, but I'm ALWAYS interested in what he has to say, and I ALWAYS think about it -- even when I'd rather not.
boBB barks pretty hard at me and others, but he's very civil in his intent even as he pushes the boundaries of language, and he both speaks from pain and understands other people's pain, and he knows he's a gadfly, and he's willing to tempt expulsion, but the truth is, I believe, that even when he is pissed to the gills, he's still writing from compassion, not only for the person he's defending, but also for the person he's seemingly flaming. At least that has been my experience with him, especially when I've been a jerk.
I believe that boBB deserves a special pass here, rather like the "court jester" who speaks the truth in Shakespeare, or the shamanistic wounded healer, whose dance and outrageousness is tolerated because it alone speaks for the other side in each of us. I don't know of any other person on this board who fulfills that role.
boBB's presence here is unique because he is not mentally ill, yet he suffers much of what those of us who are suffer. He consistently, persistently asks the same questions, over and over, not because he likes to hear himself talk, but because he wants everyone to consider the possibility that they are not ill either, or that if they are, it is not an aberration.
I'm so average I can hardly stand it -- I'm the perfect member of a focus group. Because I'm a boomer, raised in the San Fernando Valley during the 50s and 60s, my unchallenged concepts and opinions -- like it or not -- represent those of tens of millions of people across the country. I'm a democrat who re-registered republican in order to claim to be a "republican for" women's rights, civil rights, environmental rights. I've had it with most of my fellow democrats. I don't care who's having sex with Clinton -- I only care that he didn't produce the nationwide depression-style work for everyone who wants it corps he promised, that he let paramilitary units attack an occupied church and burn it to the ground with women and children inside when any other denomination would have been handled lawyer-to-lawyer with no physical confrontation at all, and that he doesn't get the difference between "process" and "content," allowing civil rights to be steadily eroded while increasing the absurd repressiveness of political correctness, to the great detriment especially of the generation behind us. Gore is a bore and none too bright, but he's going to be our next president, thanks to the Republicans' choice of candidate.
Whoops! Perhaps I've lost the distinction of process and content in this post! I mean to say, there always needs to be someone who says,
"Get a Grip!" and there always needs to be someone who says, "Grip This!" boBB's a nice balance to my arrogance and presumption.Much love,
Mark
Posted by Chris A. on May 16, 2000, at 10:49:15
In reply to Re: boBB is my friend..., posted by Mark H. on May 16, 2000, at 10:27:52
I came here for support and to be of what little support I can be to others. When one is suicidally depressed, political issues and flaming aren't of much help. I believe in free speech, but also have a great appreciation for gentlemen, respect for others, kindness, yes, and civility. There is a time and place to fight for your beliefs, but perhaps this is not the appropriate forum. Maybe I ought to throw my computer in the trash. The net is obviously no place for people in pain.
Have mercy, please.
Chris A.
Posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 11:13:05
In reply to Re: boBB is my friend..., posted by Mark H. on May 16, 2000, at 10:27:52
Mark, when I read your post, what I felt was that you were expressing something that you are probably not alone in-----the masochist's position. There are probably a number of us here who have such tendencies and who get something out of having someone like boBB rant and rave his outrageous conspiratorial theories and make us "THINK", ie, allow us to doubt our own desire for civility and reason.
I'm sorry, but this is not a radical philosophy discussion board, and I do not agree that boBB has been civil. To me, many of his posts feel like harassment.
I have stayed out of most of the discussion about Fred's ouster, because of the acrid tone that has pervaded much of it. Here is my opinion: I found Fred's plight to be painful, but he did get out of hand in how he expressed his frustration at not being understood. What he said was clearly beyond the acceptable boundaries of this board. However, I did feel he was ousted very quickly, whereas others in the past have had more warning. Perhaps another official warning would have been in order.
What puzzles me though, is how this issue of Fred's ouster has been commandeered by one angry poster armed with paranoid ideas and an axe to grind that is clearly beyond the scope of this bulletin board. I don't know if Fred is boBB is Fred Stone is whoever, but it seems the whole thing has just gotten out of control, especially since boBB has now gone beyond the threads that are ABOUT this subject and started harassing people like Abby who have disclosed highly sensitive personal accounts of their suffering. That kind of invasion into other threads to harass people is over the top. That is why I have broken my silence and spoken out now. I just won't stand for people feeling they can wield their obnoxious manners willy nilly to hurt people on this board.
As you can tell I am angry. I am enraged. I wish everyone would stop being so lightfooted with boBB and stop playing the masochist to his sadist.
Posted by dove on May 16, 2000, at 16:21:26
In reply to Re: boBB is my friend..., posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 11:13:05
I do not care whether boBB is two or five personalities on this board. However, I do care when someone is very rough, cruel, mean-spirited, and completely 100% out of line. boBB may have had a number of great thought-provoking points, but they are totally drowned by his brutish manner and crass voice.
Whether it's emailing a bunch of people with his agenda, flaunting his superiority and supposed knowledge against another HURTING board member, or swinging sucker-punches at the person who GAVE us this board; his attitude is reflected in his virtual actions and these constitute virtual and real *harassment*.
Harassment, by definition reflects an offensive or attack upon those who are oppressed, or vulnerable.
This is the behavior of a predator, not the prey. His threats are just that, threats, and should NOT be ignored. boBB is a hunter with an axe to grind, he is on the look-out for victims, otherwise, he would not respond with threats that identify him as such.
Where's those Cyber-Angels when you need one. Very sad indeed.
dove
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:34:55
In reply to boBB is a predator., posted by dove on May 16, 2000, at 16:21:26
> I do not care whether boBB is two or five personalities on this board. However, I do care when someone is very rough, cruel, mean-spirited, and completely 100% out of line. boBB may have had a number of great thought-provoking points, but they are totally drowned by his brutish manner and crass voice.
>
> Whether it's emailing a bunch of people with his agenda, flaunting his superiority and supposed knowledge against another HURTING board member, or swinging sucker-punches at the person who GAVE us this board; his attitude is reflected in his virtual actions and these constitute virtual and real *harassment*.
>
> Harassment, by definition reflects an offensive or attack upon those who are oppressed, or vulnerable.
>
> This is the behavior of a predator, not the prey. His threats are just that, threats, and should NOT be ignored. boBB is a hunter with an axe to grind, he is on the look-out for victims, otherwise, he would not respond with threats that identify him as such.
>
> Where's those Cyber-Angels when you need one. Very sad indeed.
>
> dove
************************
Here, here dove. Well said indeeed!!!Alan
****************************
Posted by tina on May 16, 2000, at 18:28:49
In reply to Re: boBB is a predator., posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:34:55
"Let him, who is without sin, cast the first stone"
> I do not care whether boBB is two or five personalities on this board. However, I do care when someone is very rough, cruel, mean-spirited, and completely 100% out of line. boBB may have had a number of great thought-provoking points, but they are totally drowned by his brutish manner and crass voice.
> >
> > Whether it's emailing a bunch of people with his agenda, flaunting his superiority and supposed knowledge against another HURTING board member, or swinging sucker-punches at the person who GAVE us this board; his attitude is reflected in his virtual actions and these constitute virtual and real *harassment*.
> >
> > Harassment, by definition reflects an offensive or attack upon those who are oppressed, or vulnerable.
> >
> > This is the behavior of a predator, not the prey. His threats are just that, threats, and should NOT be ignored. boBB is a hunter with an axe to grind, he is on the look-out for victims, otherwise, he would not respond with threats that identify him as such.
> >
> > Where's those Cyber-Angels when you need one. Very sad indeed.
> >
> > dove
> ************************
> Here, here dove. Well said indeeed!!!
>
> Alan
> ****************************
Posted by Cam W. on May 16, 2000, at 18:51:36
In reply to Re: Cops can lie!!!!, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 9:51:59
why?
Posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 4:48:51
In reply to Grip this..., posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 0:30:07
> The part where people with incomes in excess of $100,000 are allowed to define civility was unclear to me Mark.
I don't get this thing you have about class warfare. None of the poor people I've ever known (including those who were homeless, mentally ill, and/or both) was a fraction badly behaved as this Fred fellow, and certainly I've known some rich folks who weren't the politest. I have no idea what Fred's income is, if he has an income. He is not "acting like a poor person;" he is acting like a jerk, and contrary to what you may believe, most poor people are not jerks.
Socioeconomic class is neither an excuse nor an explanation for bad behavior.
> Please explain to all us us out here on the street why Robert Hsiung, MD, DRUG PUSHER
That would be a cool door plate. (Although I still think "PORN KING" would be cooler.)
Posted by grannybabble on May 22, 2000, at 13:49:58
In reply to Re: Grip this..., posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 4:48:51
>
> > Please explain to all us us out here on the street why Robert Hsiung, MD, DRUG PUSHER
>
> That would be a cool door plate. (Although I still think "PORN KING" would be cooler.)((((((((((((((((((((((((((Elizabeth))))))))))))))))))
Honey, are you off your medication? Mentally ill people (if you consider yourself mentally ill) often lack the insight to realize their comments are inappropriate. Please see your Pdoc soon!
Love and hugs-granny
Posted by Adam on May 22, 2000, at 20:20:04
In reply to Re: DR HSUING PORNO KING, posted by grannybabble on May 22, 2000, at 13:49:58
Irony can be engaging and provocative. Sardonic goading is a bore.> >
> > > Please explain to all us us out here on the street why Robert Hsiung, MD, DRUG PUSHER
> >
> > That would be a cool door plate. (Although I still think "PORN KING" would be cooler.)
>
> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((Elizabeth))))))))))))))))))
>
> Honey, are you off your medication? Mentally ill people (if you consider yourself mentally ill) often lack the insight to realize their comments are inappropriate. Please see your Pdoc soon!
>
> Love and hugs-granny
Posted by boBB on May 22, 2000, at 21:21:33
In reply to Re: Grip this..., posted by Elizabeth on May 22, 2000, at 4:48:51
I see were not yet ready to let flowers grow on this little battlefield...
Perhaps some time reading Chomsky would help you better understand the conflicts that arise over definitions of appropriate behavior. If you have no time for that, maybe watching such behavior on television (Married with children? Homicide? Most HBO flicks?)would be less threatening to you than witnessing it in an interactive forum such as this. Whatever. I trust you are not a person who would long remain in one of the environents such as south central LA where that kind of behavior is pervasive. And I doubt if you could long stand, as I have, in the midst of an angry racist mob, attempting to understand, or at least derail, their rage. I wonder how we can ever submlimate these emotions if we do not first accept them as expressive of some legitimate need?
For my part, I will stand with the radicals. My insight sometimes helps them find their way back into the community of civilized actors, and my experience sometimes allows me to help them better articulate their concerns in language the masses better understand.
... cause I'm not the only one.
I hope someday you'll join us,
and the wo~o~rld will live as one.
Posted by Adam on May 23, 2000, at 0:26:01
In reply to Hold me tight, but don't break me..., posted by boBB on May 22, 2000, at 21:21:33
The Chomsky Reader sits next to Karnow's Vietnam, a History on my bookshelf.
I can't approach their intelligence (Chomsky's a hell of a linguist, to boot), but I think both men would agree with me if I said the battlefield is a stupid place.
So what's the attraction?
> I see were not yet ready to let flowers grow on this little battlefield...
>
> Perhaps some time reading Chomsky would help you better understand the conflicts that arise over definitions of appropriate behavior. If you have no time for that, maybe watching such behavior on television (Married with children? Homicide? Most HBO flicks?)would be less threatening to you than witnessing it in an interactive forum such as this. Whatever. I trust you are not a person who would long remain in one of the environents such as south central LA where that kind of behavior is pervasive. And I doubt if you could long stand, as I have, in the midst of an angry racist mob, attempting to understand, or at least derail, their rage. I wonder how we can ever submlimate these emotions if we do not first accept them as expressive of some legitimate need?
>
> For my part, I will stand with the radicals. My insight sometimes helps them find their way back into the community of civilized actors, and my experience sometimes allows me to help them better articulate their concerns in language the masses better understand.
>
> ... cause I'm not the only one.
> I hope someday you'll join us,
> and the wo~o~rld will live as one.
Posted by boBB on May 23, 2000, at 1:10:12
In reply to Re: Hold me tight, but don't break me..., posted by Adam on May 23, 2000, at 0:26:01
Cover me. I'm gonna try to help this guy. Just keep there heads down if you can, but do what you gotta do. I want to get back alive.
(conversation overheard between medic and rifleman)
Posted by dls on May 24, 2000, at 14:02:28
In reply to Re: DR HSUING PORNO KING, posted by Adam on May 22, 2000, at 20:20:04
>
> Irony can be engaging and provocative. Sardonic goading is a bore.And "egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity" :-)
Posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:06:59
In reply to Re: DR HSUING PORNO KING, posted by dls on May 24, 2000, at 14:02:28
I think this thread is a good example of how this medium is not well suited to certain types of humor exchange. The thing is, it seems these types of exchanges take us from humor to hostility in a flash; we seem dangerously close to the edge here. What really is the point of this exchange anyway? What do you all want to communicate here?
Posted by claire 7 on May 24, 2000, at 19:10:43
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:06:59
>A great deal of humor, if not most of humor, is about hostility, anger, pain, and self-deprecation. It is, in short, a time-honored way of dealing with human discomfort. I'm afraid I don't understand YOUR point.
I think this thread is a good example of how this medium is not well suited to certain typesof humor exchange. The thing is, it seems these types of exchanges take us from humor to hostility in a flash; we seem dangerously close to the edge here. What really is the point of this exchange anyway? What do you all want to communicate here?
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 7:34:56
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by claire 7 on May 24, 2000, at 19:10:43
> >A great deal of humor, if not most of humor, is about hostility, anger, pain, and self-deprecation. It is, in short, a time-honored way of dealing with human discomfort. I'm afraid I don't understand YOUR point.
>
Claire, I guess my point is that this medium, electronic text, is not well suited for conveying the nuances of humor *because* humor handles the emotional material you correctly mention and because e-text is not able to communicate all the nuances and subtlies that convey intent, tone, etc.This thread seemed to me to be moving into that no-man's land in which the e-text starts to have a life of its own and people start to get hurt. Given some recent skirmishes around here, my intent was to make a plea for people to wary of this happening. That's all.
Posted by grannybabble on May 25, 2000, at 10:46:32
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:06:59
What really is the point of this exchange anyway? What do you all want to communicate here?
I wanted to communicate that it is unacceptable to
call names even if it was an attempt at humor. But
I also admit that I thought a "teasing" reminder was
kinder than a lecture on civility. So I guess you
just can't win sometimes.I also think someone should point out that there seems
to be a much lower threshhold of unacceptable behaviour
for people whose opinions do not reflect the majority
here.In the end it is just a matter of whose making the
judgement. Bob banned fred without a warning because
he 'believed' him to be a repeat offender. So being
objective doesn't go for much. Cyber transference
and counter transference reigns. Well, I do run on.Everything is going to be offensive to someone I suppose
And I will defend Bob against accusations of being a porn
king as long as my tired fingers can reach the keyboard.Gbabble
Posted by Mark H. on May 25, 2000, at 11:11:52
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 7:34:56
Hi Noa,
I'm trying to "talk" less during this archival period to see what I learn about myself and the interactions here. I'm certainly guilty of becoming far too involved and obsessive about our collective exchanges at times.
What I've noticed -- and I'll resist generalizing -- is that I spend too much time editorializing about external manifestations of my internal issues, and too little time here talking about myself, about what I'm experiencing inside.
I've always tended to teach what I need most to learn, and when I started inviting more dialog with self-identified schizophrenics here, it seemed obvious that I was only going to learn more and communicate well if they were willing to stop telling me about the dangers of electromagnetic energies and start telling me what it was like to be them. What I didn't immediately see is that I was and am doing the same thing -- clouding my hurt, my confusion, my issues -- by ranting about circumstances outside myself rather than talking about what it's like to be me. Often, it seems, the more hurt and afraid I feel, the less I want to talk about me, unless I really stop to think about what we're doing here -- in other words, just what you're asking.
Most of my adult life, in one way or another, I have been a tough and outspoken critic of injustice. I can get pretty righteous at times. What I want you to know is that I was hurt as a teenager -- that school administrators basically drove me to the very brink of suicide by punishing me for actions that were not illegal, just inappropriate in their eyes. Whenever you see me go for the jugular of situation in which I perceive injustice, you're really seeing a very frightened 16 year old Mark who is still angry that adults often ignore the law and the dignity of children. Often my rant, however superficially rational, is internally a jumbled mess -- a 50 year old advocate using his legal experience and knowledge to cover the hurt and shame inside and to punish some long-gone, worn-out school employees from the 60s who were wrong but doing what they knew to do. It stings like hell for me to write this.
Thanks Noa.
Much love,
Mark
Posted by Jennifer on May 25, 2000, at 12:16:28
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Mark H. on May 25, 2000, at 11:11:52
Well, I found you guys last night during one of my sleepless nights. I've read this entire thread and find that you are all quite different in personalities and tolerance levels. Sounds quite a bit like the rest of the world out there. It seems some think this thread may be worthless, however, I find an occassional discussion "off the main line" very educational. You get the opportunity to read people's personalities a little better, hopefully giving you a better ability to know how to understand them in their time of need. My best weapon for helping myself through the life I was dealt, is by making the choice to help others do the same. I'm glad to be able to participate in this discussion, even though I don't know who fred is. I guess my final point is that this thread seems to be at a point where little else would add value, but that's why we have the freedom to choose where we want to participate. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right, as long as no one is physically harmed by it (The old "can't yell fire in a movie theatre" saying). The fundamental right many forget, is that you don't have to listen to it...just clear your screen, and move on. I hope I never find a site where I agree with the opinions of all of the visitors. What a boring life that would be! Thanks to all of you for a great night. It's time for me to take a nap! Jennifer
> Hi Noa,
>
> I'm trying to "talk" less during this archival period to see what I learn about myself and the interactions here. I'm certainly guilty of becoming far too involved and obsessive about our collective exchanges at times.
>
> What I've noticed -- and I'll resist generalizing -- is that I spend too much time editorializing about external manifestations of my internal issues, and too little time here talking about myself, about what I'm experiencing inside.
>
> I've always tended to teach what I need most to learn, and when I started inviting more dialog with self-identified schizophrenics here, it seemed obvious that I was only going to learn more and communicate well if they were willing to stop telling me about the dangers of electromagnetic energies and start telling me what it was like to be them. What I didn't immediately see is that I was and am doing the same thing -- clouding my hurt, my confusion, my issues -- by ranting about circumstances outside myself rather than talking about what it's like to be me. Often, it seems, the more hurt and afraid I feel, the less I want to talk about me, unless I really stop to think about what we're doing here -- in other words, just what you're asking.
>
> Most of my adult life, in one way or another, I have been a tough and outspoken critic of injustice. I can get pretty righteous at times. What I want you to know is that I was hurt as a teenager -- that school administrators basically drove me to the very brink of suicide by punishing me for actions that were not illegal, just inappropriate in their eyes. Whenever you see me go for the jugular of situation in which I perceive injustice, you're really seeing a very frightened 16 year old Mark who is still angry that adults often ignore the law and the dignity of children. Often my rant, however superficially rational, is internally a jumbled mess -- a 50 year old advocate using his legal experience and knowledge to cover the hurt and shame inside and to punish some long-gone, worn-out school employees from the 60s who were wrong but doing what they knew to do. It stings like hell for me to write this.
>
> Thanks Noa.
>
> Much love,
>
> Mark
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 16:46:38
In reply to Re: Serious interjection (sigh), posted by grannybabble on May 25, 2000, at 10:46:32
Claire and Granny, I gotta say that I truly had no idea what was going on there---the posts were really confusing to me as to who was joking, who wasn't, who was reacting to whom, etc. Maybe it was my denseness, but I just had this feeling it was one of those wierd times when the posts take on a life of their own.
I guess I sounded a bit like the thought police or something, and I apologize for that.
Posted by Noa on May 25, 2000, at 16:55:06
In reply to Re: Serious interjection, posted by Mark H. on May 25, 2000, at 11:11:52
Wow, Mark. I think I was holding my breath while reading through your entire post, because the power and intensity you put into it was stunning. Wow. I think you are talking about the courage it takes to drop our guard, to move out from behind the shields we have used to defend ourselves against terror, to allow ourselves to know our selves. It isn't easy, when we have been hurt. You described the experience of powerlessness so well. It is the feeling of impotent rage, when we feel we are being overpowered and immobilized. A lot of adults have a hard time understanding that feeling in kids, that feeling of loss of dignity, of rage at injustice. I think it is possible, even when an adult or an adult-run institution needs to stand by its rules, to do so in a way that preserves the dignity of the kids, but not enough adults know how to do this.
Thank you for trusting us with what you disclosed.
Go forward in thread:
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