![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 3:21:51
My dojo experience includes on occassion when sensee struggled with me over a stick. For a while we both grasped the stick two-handed, back and forth, back and forth.
Then sensee removed one hand and punched me in the face. Obvious move.
Dr. Bob could delete any offensive or racist post he chooses. It is a friggin hard drive sitting in some basement room of the university. Its not some cosmic record that can never be modified.
All this other stuff about ECT and who can and can't post is a result of someone wrangling over their obligations to their profession - trying to hold on to the stick. it is not about removing obviously racist and offensive posts. Even if that is what it is about, the criterea could read "attack ideas, not people." The good doctor, the university, and the capitalist system of medicine have reached a difficult juncture in their therapy and they are demonstrating classic symptoms of resistance.
Well, guess what ....
I am the resistance!
Posted by CarolAnn on May 16, 2000, at 10:57:57
In reply to DELETE, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 3:21:51
>>
>>>I am the resistance!Help me out here boBB...what exactly is it you are resisting?? I am confused by your seemingly recent spate of 'combative' posts. I know you like to stir things up a little, but in the past, your posts have been more...sort of...productive? intriguing? pertinent?
I would honestly like to understand your purpose here. Revolution can be a much needed course of action, but where is the necessity in changing the "government" of this board? Freedom of speech is in no way diminished in the request that the speech be framed in civil language. One's opinions can easily be voiced without resorting to assaults on the opinions of others. A simple "I think you are wrong and this is why" serves the same purpose as "You idiot so-and-so, how can you possibly think you are right?".
boBB, please understand that this post is in no way meant as a criticism. It really is a genuine request for clarification on your stance. Why all this animosity for Dr. Bob and the mechanics of this site? What exactly do you feel is missing here, which needs "resistance" in order to be manifested?
I comprehend the need to underscore the hypocrisy between the Government's sanction of specific drugs in psychiatric practice, while it criminalizes the use(and sale), of those same drugs, by non-medical personnel. Still, I cannot understand what point there is in dragging Psycho-babble and Dr. Bob into the fray, when neither is responsible for making current drug policy in this country.
All this submitted respectfully for your consideration. Sincerely, CarolAnn
Posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 18:33:23
In reply to DELETE, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 3:21:51
Dude, seriously, get some help.
> My dojo experience includes on occassion when sensee struggled with me over a stick. For a while we both grasped the stick two-handed, back and forth, back and forth.
>
> Then sensee removed one hand and punched me in the face. Obvious move.
>
> Dr. Bob could delete any offensive or racist post he chooses. It is a friggin hard drive sitting in some basement room of the university. Its not some cosmic record that can never be modified.
>
> All this other stuff about ECT and who can and can't post is a result of someone wrangling over their obligations to their profession - trying to hold on to the stick. it is not about removing obviously racist and offensive posts. Even if that is what it is about, the criterea could read "attack ideas, not people." The good doctor, the university, and the capitalist system of medicine have reached a difficult juncture in their therapy and they are demonstrating classic symptoms of resistance.
>
> Well, guess what ....
>
> I am the resistance!
Posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 19:15:27
In reply to Re: boBB???, posted by CarolAnn on May 16, 2000, at 10:57:57
I'm feeling tired. I stayed up all night caring when I could have benifited from sleep. Could hardly hold my head up in court today. Fidgeted so bad some of the officials there probably thought I was on a drug.
Many respondents seem anxious not to get caught up in the drug war. I summarize those posts as people saying "I don't want to get involved."
A few decades ago, in Chicago, we resisted the draft. Now, we have our own draft. Few people want to get caught up in struggles. They are risky and often involve great personal cost. But the administration of medicine is inherintly political. This is not my unique idea, nor is it paranoid ravings. I don't think the government is out to get me. I think we are the government and when we divest ourselves of responsibility for our government, then we create a situation where paranoia is appropriate.
If I am a predator to send people e-mail containing legitimate information about the political decisions that shape medical decisions, what are the corporations who intrude on me with thousands of messages each day, telling me I stink, that women don't like me, that I need to consume more regardless the environmental and social impact.
AS of methods, techiques, and civility, War is Hell. I rountinely report military events where official publically and unabashadley boast of audacious violence. That is what it takes. The kind of writing I practice here stirs emotion - emotions that some people don't want stirred. People are often reluctant to jump off a sinking ship, or to climb out a window on a long ladder down from a burning building. It often requires stern, forceful coaxing.
That I tend to tackle this forum alone spares anyone else from having to share responsibility for my tactical choices. It seems the only good radical is a dead radical. Everyone is for Malcom X now. There is no risk involved.
As for my agenda, when I am walking the street and see someone getting beat up, I intervene. When I see children abused by their parents at K-mart, I stare at the parent, disaprovingly. It is a way of life and yes, I need help - your help, all of you, because these problems in our society are bigger than I can tackle alone, and bigger than we, as a loose knit anti-industrial, anti-capitalist-greed resistance can handle. We need to mobilize "average" people. Maybe our mobilization efforts will work, maybe we will die trying, like a soldier, bleeding out his life in a foxhole that will make no difference in the long run. It is still his mission and his duty. The more you all get involved, the less I have to act out.
Maybe later, somewhere else under another name, I will publish, or republish more data about how people are hurt by modern psychopharmacology, pschiatry and industrial medicine. There is plenty on the subject all over the internet, but I do have day job to maintain - one where I am trusted, respected and admired. I don't want to think for you people, I want you to think for yourselves. When I see people dismiss me off hand, catagorize me as paranoid, sick, predatory or otherwise innapropriate, I just open my trusty copy of "Communicating racism" and console myself with just how common are those methods of dehumanizing people who a community wants to exclude.
My point is that civility seems to have different definitions for those who are in power and those who are struggling for power. It is perfectly civil to incarcerate people in the name of the law, locking them away in inhuman prisons where they are often raped and beaten. But for me to type out a few lines, drawing some unwanted comparisons, a virtual mob races to the rescue of their sacred civil atmosphere. In this instance, I saw the mob racing after someone I thought was being victimized and did what needed to be done.
Posted by bob on May 16, 2000, at 19:42:27
In reply to Yes, i mean it, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 19:15:27
> ... I don't want to think for you people, I want you to think for yourselves....
I see. And by what criteria do you, personally, determine whether someone has thought for his or herself? When they agree with your point of view? When they clammer to join your army even after you've tried to insult and alienate them?
"Meet the new boss,
Just the same as the old boss"By all means, keep provoking us to think. But please don't presume that our differences of opinion indicate a lack of thought on our parts. Solipsistic revolutionaries, common as they are, are not all that revolutionary nor are they ultimately convincing.
sincerely,
bob
Posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 19:57:27
In reply to Yes, i mean it, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 19:15:27
Some good points, but you still really need to chill out. You're going to
blow a gasket or something, beyond disrupting with rant and screed.It's not like I haven't been guilty of this in the past. I just came to
realise besides being a headache, I was giving myself one. What good is
that to anybody?Activism can take many forms. Assaulting the sensibilities of those you
consider too complacent for their own good is quite an act of hubris and
seems a bit grandiose. That's why I suggested getting help. You might feel
better if you didn't get so enraged by things you aren't in control of, and
people thus might respond more positively to your concern about certain
issues, which is valid enough without the histrionics.Hey, if I'm right it's only because I've effed up enough times myself to know.
There'd be no shame in acknowledging I might have a point, and that nobody
here wants to do wrong by you.> I'm feeling tired. I stayed up all night caring when I could have benifited from sleep. Could hardly hold my head up in court today. Fidgeted so bad some of the officials there probably thought I was on a drug.
>
> Many respondents seem anxious not to get caught up in the drug war. I summarize those posts as people saying "I don't want to get involved."
>
> A few decades ago, in Chicago, we resisted the draft. Now, we have our own draft. Few people want to get caught up in struggles. They are risky and often involve great personal cost. But the administration of medicine is inherintly political. This is not my unique idea, nor is it paranoid ravings. I don't think the government is out to get me. I think we are the government and when we divest ourselves of responsibility for our government, then we create a situation where paranoia is appropriate.
>
> If I am a predator to send people e-mail containing legitimate information about the political decisions that shape medical decisions, what are the corporations who intrude on me with thousands of messages each day, telling me I stink, that women don't like me, that I need to consume more regardless the environmental and social impact.
>
> AS of methods, techiques, and civility, War is Hell. I rountinely report military events where official publically and unabashadley boast of audacious violence. That is what it takes. The kind of writing I practice here stirs emotion - emotions that some people don't want stirred. People are often reluctant to jump off a sinking ship, or to climb out a window on a long ladder down from a burning building. It often requires stern, forceful coaxing.
>
> That I tend to tackle this forum alone spares anyone else from having to share responsibility for my tactical choices. It seems the only good radical is a dead radical. Everyone is for Malcom X now. There is no risk involved.
>
> As for my agenda, when I am walking the street and see someone getting beat up, I intervene. When I see children abused by their parents at K-mart, I stare at the parent, disaprovingly. It is a way of life and yes, I need help - your help, all of you, because these problems in our society are bigger than I can tackle alone, and bigger than we, as a loose knit anti-industrial, anti-capitalist-greed resistance can handle. We need to mobilize "average" people. Maybe our mobilization efforts will work, maybe we will die trying, like a soldier, bleeding out his life in a foxhole that will make no difference in the long run. It is still his mission and his duty. The more you all get involved, the less I have to act out.
>
> Maybe later, somewhere else under another name, I will publish, or republish more data about how people are hurt by modern psychopharmacology, pschiatry and industrial medicine. There is plenty on the subject all over the internet, but I do have day job to maintain - one where I am trusted, respected and admired. I don't want to think for you people, I want you to think for yourselves. When I see people dismiss me off hand, catagorize me as paranoid, sick, predatory or otherwise innapropriate, I just open my trusty copy of "Communicating racism" and console myself with just how common are those methods of dehumanizing people who a community wants to exclude.
>
> My point is that civility seems to have different definitions for those who are in power and those who are struggling for power. It is perfectly civil to incarcerate people in the name of the law, locking them away in inhuman prisons where they are often raped and beaten. But for me to type out a few lines, drawing some unwanted comparisons, a virtual mob races to the rescue of their sacred civil atmosphere. In this instance, I saw the mob racing after someone I thought was being victimized and did what needed to be done.
Posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 19:58:28
In reply to Re: Yes, i mean it, posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 19:57:27
bob slipped in.
Posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 22:57:31
In reply to Re: Yes, i mean it, posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 19:58:28
>And by what criteria do you, personally, determine whether someone has thought for his or herself?
Probably the same kind of criteria you, a teacher, uses - we analyze the material to see if it reflects original thinking and brings together a variety of ideas or if it simply harps the previous statements of some authority figure. Of course, it is not really neccessary to go around checking each person. We are working on the direction of the group. Its pretty easy to tell if a herd is stampeding or if they are milling about in their own individual directions.
>When they agree with your point of view?
No. By obfuscating my point of view, occassional expanding the context into ideas that seems radical, and constantly introducing, defending and expanding on the views of others, I make it difficult for anyone to resolve any dissonance I might stir by harping back my perspective, while expanding the allowable ideological territory.
>When they clammer to join your army even after you've tried to insult and alienate them?
No. The insults and alienation will more likely encourage them to act independently, sparing me the unwanted burdens of leadership, and devalueing myself as a target for opposition. Perhaps you don't follow world wide trends in guerilla warfare as much as I, but leaderless resistence is quite the rage these days.
> "Meet the new boss,
> Just the same as the old boss"Yeh, and we did get fooled again, didn't we?
I hung around w/ non-violent new age anti-nuke types a lot, learning to take blows and not strike back. But I see a lot of rage in our society, rage I consider appropriate to the context, and it seems to me to be a right thing to do to share the burden of those enraged, making their load lighter and the emotion more productive.
I recently read a series of books by a NavySeal anti-terrorist convicted felon. the Rogue Warrior series. Hmmm. I don't advocate some of his extrajudicial killing and definately frown on boasts of rape, but his audacious style and appreciation of the nuance of guerilla warfare offers the well rounded social/enviro-justice psy-warrior some ideas to mull over.
Posted by shar on May 17, 2000, at 23:14:18
In reply to Re: Yeh, i'm mean, posted by boBB on May 16, 2000, at 22:57:31
Some of boBB's antics have been somewhat amusing, but I have much difficulty taking him seriously. He reminds me too much of my son's teenage years, tilting at his version of windmills.
I want my board back. I want to keep learning from the "posters" here, and asking for help if I need it, and giving help to others when I can.
I am helping boBB by ignoring what cannot be his better half.
Shar
Posted by boBB on May 18, 2000, at 17:50:27
In reply to boBB's on Ignore and I'm much better now..., posted by shar on May 17, 2000, at 23:14:18
I want my board back. I am ignoring you. I am not talking to you. I did not write this. I am not thinking about you, or about this.
A psychopharmcology site visited 3 million times a year is not an effective place to discuss the political, social or moral implications of the administration of medicine, or about the personal impact of the political regulation of scientific research. Nothing we do matters. Thinking that what we do matters is nothing but solipsism. We are all small, weak, helpless, ineffectual people, at most capable of amusing antics. I need medication.
Thank you so much, shar, for your supportive and educational contribution. And thank you so much for bringing forward this thread that I had otherwise allowed to rest in an archived page. I now better understand how ignoring people contributes to the general advancement of ignorance.
Please, never consider your teenage son's concerns to be anything more than tilting at windmills. The last thing this world needs is understanding between a mother and a son.
> Some of boBB's antics have been somewhat amusing, but I have much difficulty taking him seriously. He reminds me too much of my son's teenage years, tilting at his version of windmills.
>
> I want my board back. I want to keep learning from the "posters" here, and asking for help if I need it, and giving help to others when I can.
>
> I am helping boBB by ignoring what cannot be his better half.
>
> Shar
Posted by Todd on May 18, 2000, at 18:07:26
In reply to boBB's on Ignore and I'm much better now..., posted by shar on May 17, 2000, at 23:14:18
So what if boBB is blowing off a little steam? Where is it written that everything we post here has to be positive and uplifting? Perhaps boBB has no other outlet to vent his frustration and he feels safe here in his Babble Family. Nothing wrong with that. If you find his posts offensive, just skip right on over them. Sometimes I do.
But most of the time, I don't. I've read quite a few of boBB's posts, and I find him to be very articulate, intelligent, and well-read. His opinions are most definitely his own, and his posts have often given me quite a bit to chew on. He has sparked some very interesting dialogues here, and can always be counted on to throw in a little spice when it's needed. I really think that's the greatest thing about this board - people sharing opposing viewpoints, challenging their own, and coming to a greater understanding of each other in the process. Keep 'em coming, boBB. I'll be listening. Peace and love.
Posted by shar on May 18, 2000, at 22:06:32
In reply to Re: boBB's on Ignore and I'm much better now..., posted by Todd on May 18, 2000, at 18:07:26
Your kindness, generous spirit, and understanding sets a wonderful example for me to follow, Todd.
Pax
S> So what if boBB is blowing off a little steam? Where is it written that everything we post here has to be positive and uplifting? Perhaps boBB has no other outlet to vent his frustration and he feels safe here in his Babble Family. Nothing wrong with that. If you find his posts offensive, just skip right on over them. Sometimes I do.
>
> But most of the time, I don't. I've read quite a few of boBB's posts, and I find him to be very articulate, intelligent, and well-read. His opinions are most definitely his own, and his posts have often given me quite a bit to chew on. He has sparked some very interesting dialogues here, and can always be counted on to throw in a little spice when it's needed. I really think that's the greatest thing about this board - people sharing opposing viewpoints, challenging their own, and coming to a greater understanding of each other in the process. Keep 'em coming, boBB. I'll be listening. Peace and love.
This is the end of the thread.
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