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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KimK on April 19, 2000, at 21:08:31
Has anyone had any experience with Metabolife? (It's an herbal supplement with Vit. E, Magnesium, Zinc, Chromium Picolinate, Guarana, Ma Huang extract [ephedrine], Bee Pollen, Siberian Ginseng, Ginger, Lecithin, Bovine Complex, Damiana, Sarsparilla, Goldenseal, Nettle, Gotu Kola, Spirulina, Royal Jelly.)
I'm currently between AD's and started taking it as a diet aid. (Trying to lose Parnate pounds.) I am amazed to feel better than I have for the past two years. I've had refractory depression and been on quite an array of meds and soups.
Any ideas why this would be working? If there's something in it that's affecting serotonin or whatever, I'd like to be able to tell my new doctor what to focus on.
Thanks,
KimK
Posted by Fred Potter on April 19, 2000, at 22:14:28
In reply to Metabolife for Depression?, posted by KimK on April 19, 2000, at 21:08:31
Glad you're feeling well, but I wouldn't touch it with someone else's barge-pole. Guarana is caffeine isn't it? Mix it with with ephedrine and you've got stimulation all right. I've also heard of a death caused by Royal Jelly. Can anyone fill in the details? We're not queen bees you know
Fred
Posted by KimK on April 19, 2000, at 22:34:12
In reply to Re: Metabolife , posted by Fred Potter on April 19, 2000, at 22:14:28
> Glad you're feeling well, but I wouldn't touch it with someone else's barge-pole. Guarana is caffeine isn't it? Mix it with with ephedrine and you've got stimulation all right. I've also heard of a death caused by Royal Jelly. Can anyone fill in the details? We're not queen bees you know
> FredWasn't the death someone who was allergic to bees? The label does say it contains "caffeine alkaloids." And I'm not sure I want to know what "Bovine Complex" is.
So far the only downside I've noticed is that I'm COLD all the time.
Interesting question--Do I risk death so that I'm not suicidal?
KimK
Posted by bob on April 20, 2000, at 1:36:16
In reply to Re: Metabolife , posted by KimK on April 19, 2000, at 22:34:12
> And I'm not sure I want to know what "Bovine Complex" is.
In the midwest, that's what you might call a dairy farm.
Otherwise, the main kick to diet aids like that (Stacker 2 is another) is that they are stimulants. Forget about what the rest of the label says ... it all may have some value somewhere, but the main value for the company is to get you thinking that this is "really healthy stuff". I think Stacker 2 is at least honest enough to claim to be a pure stimulant (whatever chemical it is) without all the dressing up.
Not that I'm one to complain about stimulants and the positive effects they can have in augmenting the effects of ADs -- being on ritalin myself.
The main concern I have heard voiced about stims as weight-loss aids is that they can work, but only for as long as you take them. I've heard the same from Slim-Fast converts -- just a shake a day, but for the rest of your life. But they love the 10-20 pounds they've lost and they love their shakes, so who am I (medicated as I am and probably for life) to argue?
my two pence,
bob
Posted by AndrewB on April 20, 2000, at 7:50:40
In reply to Metabolife for Depression?, posted by KimK on April 19, 2000, at 21:08:31
Kim,
I'm just another person who is trying to figure things out but here is a suggestion for you. Try taking ephedrine alone without the Metabolife. If you receive a mood lift from it you know there is one drug that enhances norepinephrine transission that is able to improve your mood. You may then want to try other norepinephrine enhancers such as reboxetine, adrafinil, tricyclics, provigil and possibly wellbutrin.
AndrewB
Posted by bob on April 20, 2000, at 8:36:55
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by AndrewB on April 20, 2000, at 7:50:40
> I'm just another person who is trying to figure things out but here is a suggestion for you. Try taking ephedrine alone without the Metabolife. If you receive a mood lift from it you know there is one drug that enhances norepinephrine transission that is able to improve your mood. You may then want to try other norepinephrine enhancers such as reboxetine, adrafinil, tricyclics, provigil and possibly wellbutrin.
But, if I'm not mistaken, stims work quite differently from these meds, so the results can vary widely.
Most important is that these meds have been tested far more rigorously than metabolife -- something not to be discarded so lightly.
But, in my own experience: wellbutrin's effect on dopamine made me psychotic -- TCAs do a fine job of moving me from depression to anhedonia (half the battle?) while working on norepinephrine ... but both of these block reuptake. Stims like ritalin, from what I understand, stimulate the production of dopamine, working on the other end of the cycle. Stacker 2 and Metabolife probably work on just supplying the raw material again instead of blocking reuptake. I don't know the neurochemophysiopsychology of it all, but for me the supply end vs the blocking end of the dopamine "life cycle" seems to make all the difference in the world.
cheers,
bob
Posted by AndrewB on April 20, 2000, at 10:58:41
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by bob on April 20, 2000, at 8:36:55
Bob,
I should make myself clear. I'm not advocating using ephedrine as an antidepressant. I however believe that it may have some value in predicting success with other ADs. Ephedrine is an alpha and beta receptor andrenergic stimulant and also it releases norepinephrine from its storage sites.
Posted by KimK on April 20, 2000, at 12:12:54
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by AndrewB on April 20, 2000, at 7:50:40
Thanx for the magic words "norepinephrine enhancers," "dopamine stimulation," etc.
I'm not convinced that the Metabolife effect is entirely due to stims. I was on dexedrine (45 mg daily) (along with my other meds) for the past two years. I continued to be depressed, sleepy, and experience substantial weight gain. Not what you'd usually expect--but if theory was reality I'd have found an AD that works by now.
KimK
Posted by Noa on April 20, 2000, at 13:28:37
In reply to Re: Metabolife , posted by bob on April 20, 2000, at 1:36:16
I would NOT mess with ephedrine.
Posted by michael on April 20, 2000, at 15:24:36
In reply to Re: Metabolife , posted by Noa on April 20, 2000, at 13:28:37
> I would NOT mess with ephedrine.
For what it's worth, I ocassionally take ephedrine (25mg - 50mg effedrine hcl), like coffee, to wake up, or boost energy/alertness some...
Not saying it's a good/bad idea... just a little anecdotal evidence that I thought I'd throw into the conversation...
Posted by bob on April 20, 2000, at 19:57:14
In reply to Re: effedrine, posted by michael on April 20, 2000, at 15:24:36
> Not saying it's a good/bad idea... just a little anecdotal evidence that I thought I'd throw into the conversation...
Same here. Sorry, AndrewB, if you thought I meant what you were disclaiming above. I agree with you -- and once I found out what was in that stuff, I figured some ephedrine would make a nice little monkey wrench to toss into the mix.
But, again, I don't think I'm in any position to argue against people using stims, whether caffeine or any other legally available -ine.
cheers,
bob
Posted by JohnL on April 21, 2000, at 3:04:35
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by AndrewB on April 20, 2000, at 7:50:40
A few weeks ago I tried a Metabolife candy bar available in the Wal*Mart pharmacy section. It has ephedra in it. A few hours later I was totally amazed at how good I felt. Not just energy, but good mood and interest too. I went to the health food store to explore this some more, but I was counseled by the storekeeper that ehpedra is not for longterm use and can create more problems than it fixes if used continuously. So I opted to pass it by. But it did at least provide me the clues to point me in the right direction...away from serotonin meds and toward norepinephrine meds. It could indeed, in my opinion, be an interesting test for someone to see how they respond to a NE stimulant before getting committed to a long trial of a NE med.
That one candy bar was actually so good in squashing my longstanding symptoms, I think I could do well by taking a quarter of a candy bar perhaps twice a day. It's not something I'm going to rush out and do today, but at least I know in the back of my mind a simple OTC remedy for symptoms of anhedonia, lack of energy, lack of motivation.
Posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 12:44:49
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by JohnL on April 21, 2000, at 3:04:35
Hey JohnL, maybe you should sugmit a proposal to the NIMH and study this. I just showed my pdoc the abstract of that article that claimed response to Ritalin can identify who should be on desipramine (favorable) versus nortriptyline (non-favorable). He said that if such simple tests were valid, everybody would be using them and someone would be making a ton of money off of it.
Maybe you've discovered a surefire test to check for SSRI responders vs. TCA responders.
... it sure would have taken two years of hell out of my load of misery!
bob
Posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 13:28:50
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by bob on April 21, 2000, at 12:44:49
I'm hearing reports that if you mix ephedra/ine with any other stimulants, you risk overstimulating your cardiovascular system and having a heart attack. The same goes for exercising while taking the stuff. Apparently, a few people have died doing this.
Posted by JudyD on April 22, 2000, at 20:20:49
In reply to Re: Metabolife for Depression?, posted by Noa on April 22, 2000, at 13:28:50
Metabolife sounded too good to be true in the commercials so I checked out the website - HUGE list of warnings and contraindications - among them MAOI's.
Posted by KimK on April 23, 2000, at 0:54:00
In reply to Re: Metabolife NOT for MAOI Users, posted by JudyD on April 22, 2000, at 20:20:49
> Metabolife sounded too good to be true in the commercials so I checked out the website - HUGE list of warnings and contraindications - among them MAOI's.
Not any longer than the list on any of the ADs I've taken, though. The difference is that the package inserts don't just give you the warnings and contraindications, they tell you the potential problems. Neither the packaging or the website gives me a clue as to why so many of you think ephedrine is bad stuff.
So what ARE the reasons ephedrine is bad in and of itself (not counting interactions w/other meds)?
Although it may not matter too much, really, since it helped (I thought) for almost a week and then I crashed back into my black hole.
KimK
Posted by Cam W. on April 23, 2000, at 22:54:34
In reply to What are problems with ephedra/ephedrine?, posted by KimK on April 23, 2000, at 0:54:00
Kim - Ephedrine is what you start with to make methadrine (speed).[On a wall in Haight-Ashbury in the 1960s - "Speed Kills"]Ephedra, which converts to ephedrine (I think) in the body is the active ingredient in Herbal Ecstacy (Ma Huang). There have been reports of drug-induced psychoses from Ma Huang. I read a paper last week - "Psychiatric Complications of Ma Huang" and it contained a couple of case studies. Ma Huang has caused psychosis in some military personnel (don't know if it just affects the American military).
I did download this study from the web, but since I have downloaded and printed over 200 articles in the last month, I cannot remember where I got it. I will try to remember to look it up at work tomarrow.
There have also been reports of heart attacks from overdoses and overstimulation when used at raves or to enhance endurance in athletics.
I think I'll stick to my 25¢ cup of coffee to get me going in the morning (or if I am feeling particularily stupid, I'll stop at Starbucks for a $4.00 cup).
- Cam W.
Posted by boB on April 24, 2000, at 2:25:44
In reply to Re: What are problems with ephedra/ephedrine?, posted by Cam W. on April 23, 2000, at 22:54:34
Broken hearted people take these substances. Their already broken heart rythms can stand no more stimulation and sometimes miss a beat, resulting in death.
BTW, pseudoephedrine is the typical precursor ingredient for methamphetime. I don't know the chemical relationship, but am certain enough that there is a relationship that, if I were writing a story, i would spend my on-the-clock time trying to understand the ephedra/pseuodphed relationship in lay language and that my time would not be wasted.
Posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 20:41:41
In reply to Re: What are problems with ephedra/ephedrine?, posted by boB on April 24, 2000, at 2:25:44
boB - The chemical composition of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are the same. They are optical isomers (bend polarized light in different directions). Actually they have the same 2 dimensional shape (as you would see in a normal chemical diagram), but differ in 3 dimensional shape (which can be shown using a different type of 2 dimensional drawing). It is the different ways that the chemical bonds can bend in 3 dimensions that make the difference.The reason that backyard chemists use pseudoephedrine is that it is easier to buy in larger quantities without raising as much suspicion. - Cam W.
Posted by KimK on April 24, 2000, at 23:53:44
In reply to Re: What are problems with ephedra/ephedrine?, posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 20:41:41
I've got impressionable teenagers hanging around the house, so I guess I'll pass on cooking up meth. (For the time being, anyway, as crappy as I'm feeling now I'm not ruling out any future possibilities.)
Does ephedrine have any effects other than what would be found in other stimulants--specifically, dexedrine? (Since I had a better short-term response to the Metabolife than to 2 years of dexedrine.)
And if I only felt better for 5 days before plunging again, is it even possible the Metabolife had anything to do with it? Or was it just one of those dirty tricks to make me think I might some day have a life again?
Kim
Posted by JohnB on April 25, 2000, at 2:14:52
In reply to Re: What are problems with ephedra/ephedrine?, posted by Cam W. on April 24, 2000, at 20:41:41
> The reason that backyard chemists use pseudoephedrine is that it is easier to buy in larger quantities without raising as much suspicion. - Cam W.
Which makes me mad because I used to be able to buy Sudafed (for my sinus congestion) in bottles, but now you can only buy those damn blister packs.
Posted by AndrewB on April 25, 2000, at 13:55:11
In reply to ephedrine action equivalent, posted by KimK on April 24, 2000, at 23:53:44
Kim,
Please listen. Ephedrine is from what little I know a typical drug of abuse. It is a drug of abuse because you become tolerant to its effects. If you want to experience the same effect next time you take it you have to take more of the drug. You keep on having to take more and more to get the same effect. When you quit a drug of abuse you feel worse than ever because your system is altered so you have to take the drug just to feel normal. I'm sure this isn't what you want. You just a want to feel better like you did for 5 days there. Let me explain how you may do that. First let me say that ephedrine increases norepinephrine (NE) activity. It is the NE that was making you feel better. The way ephedrine works though, it can't keep the level of NE activity increased. Ephedrine starts to quit working after awhile or maybe starts causing side effects. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a drug that was able to increase the NE activity on a steady and continual basis. Well there are such drugs. They are not stimulants. And they may make you feel better. The drugs are Provigil, Adrafinil, Reboxetine and Tricyclics. Provigil and Tricyclics are available in the US. Why don't you talk about your experience with ephedrine with your psychiatrist and discuss whether a trial with any of these medicines may be appropriate.
Best wishes
AndrewB
Posted by KimK on April 25, 2000, at 16:57:49
In reply to Re: ephedrine action equivalent, posted by AndrewB on April 25, 2000, at 13:55:11
Thanks, Andrew.
I have tried several tricyclics to no avail, but have supsected from what I've read that Reboxetine might be what I need. Unfortunately, it's not available here.
I'm (supposed to be) in the process of finding a new pdoc, so will be sure to mention to him my reaction to ephedrine. Also see if he's comfortable monitoring mail-order use of reboxetine. Or perhaps try Provigil.
Thanks for your concern.
Kim
Posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 17:33:53
In reply to Re: ephedrine action equivalent, posted by KimK on April 25, 2000, at 16:57:49
> Thanks, Andrew.
>
> I have tried several tricyclics to no avail, but have supsected from what I've read that Reboxetine might be what I need. Unfortunately, it's not available here.
>
James here....Or you could try Effexor, which effects nor-e.
james
Posted by KimK on April 28, 2000, at 0:11:58
In reply to Re: ephedrine action equivalent, posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 17:33:53
I still don't have a new pdoc, and was wondering if anyone knew of any problems with combining SAM-e (which I haven't tried before) and Metabolife? Particularly any interaction between the SAM-e and the ephedrine.
Kim
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