![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
Tell me why people who are homeless should not commit suicide, and tell me why people who are terminally ill and suffering should not commit suicide. Tell me why someone who is chronically unhappy (myself) should not commit suicide. Joy is dependent on good fortune. Fortunate people don't realize that. I will ignore judgemental "religious" answers. I need help.
Posted by bob on April 14, 2000, at 1:10:02
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
(great ... my browser crashes, and I lose the ultimate reason, which I had just typed out but now cannot recall with the same clarity ... damn)
I'm sure others will offer good reasons, but I can't tell you why you shouldn't kill yourself. Some people find what they need in the answers of others, but that's never worked for me.
I do know that finding a reason not to kill yourself isn't enough. You need to find a reason to live. Not a "Reason to Live" or a reason to live for others. A reason to live for yourself.
Start small, that's my best advice.
My German Shepard finds great fortune and joy in the moment when I open the door to our apartment, whether I've been gone five minutes or all day. It took me a long time to learn that lesson from her, but it did sink in eventually.
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated."
Living for others can be enough to keep you around for a while, but in that while find something for yourself -- not just "no matter how simple", but starting with the simple.
You can start with the good fortune of finding a group of folk who understand where you are because they've been there themselves and have lived to tell.
We also live to listen, so please keep talking.
be well,
bob
Posted by forthfore on April 14, 2000, at 2:10:32
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
When I'm suicidal I believe I’m omniscient. I’m convinced this bleak, painful little world I’m in stretches out in all directions and eternally into the future. I see it stretching back eternally into the past.
I see no doors, I see no meaning, I see no light, I can’t imagine any comfort. I can't imagine anything in the future that won't hurt. Everything hurts now and it seems everything has always hurt.
But I am not omniscient. I really know nothing. Sometimes I quote Hamlet to myself to remind me - "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
Okay, granted he was talking about the horror of encountering the ghost of his dead murdered father. (But at those times I’d probably be relieved to see a ghost like that. Someone I could relate to anyway).
The point is it reminds me of all I don't know, haven't seen, haven't tried, haven't imagined... the wide open world that surrounds and dwarfs the dark corner in which I've buried myself.
I have had long-term depression. Dysthymia since I was 12, recurrent major depression and social phobia. I could give you a laundry list of other misfortunes. I guarantee you I've considered myself doomed. But even for me the whole world has changed on a dime. It's happened a few times. A few times when I've least expected it. Enough to humble me.
You’re right to ask for help – in your own way you’re calling to the wide open world. And I’m calling back to you. It’s here. Even though you can’t see it because you’re staring at a black wall that seems to stretch forever. Keep asking for help – there are many people who want to help – many kinds of help to receive – and many places to find it.
***
> Tell me why people who are homeless should not commit suicide, and tell me why people who are terminally ill and suffering should not commit suicide. Tell me why someone who is chronically unhappy (myself) should not commit suicide. Joy is dependent on good fortune. Fortunate people don't realize that. I will ignore judgemental "religious" answers. I need help.
Posted by KarenB on April 14, 2000, at 11:09:01
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
Dear In Need,
From one who has felt as you do now (and there are plenty of us here), I don't believe that joy is dependant on good fortune. Happiness may be...but not joy. Joy is something inside that gives light and hope, when all else appears bleak. It's what makes me believe with all my heart that tomorrow just might be better and worth hanging around for. My children have given me joy. Ultimitely, though, the joy that I have is based in my faith in the God who gave me this life and will take it away when it is His time.
Hope you don't find that judgmental or religious.
Wishing you a better tomorrow...
Karen
Posted by AprilA. on April 14, 2000, at 14:52:53
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
> Tell me why people who are homeless should not commit suicide, and tell me why people who are terminally ill and suffering should not commit suicide. Tell me why someone who is chronically unhappy (myself) should not commit suicide. Joy is dependent on good fortune. Fortunate people don't realize that. I will ignore judgemental "religious" answers. I need help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------I think the reason most homeless people and terminally ill people do not commit suicide is because they don't want to. Why not is a good question and I don't know the answer. Maybe just an instinct for life or hope?
Why should someone chronically unhappy not kill themselves is also a good question. I guess it's a variation of the Big Question (What's the meaning of life?) I think everyone has to work that out herself, but I'm worried that you are so weighed down by your emotions that you can't think clearly. Why are you so unhappy? Are you being treated for depression? What kind of support have you got in your life?
So I can't tell you why not to but I can tell you that things do change and I hope you stick around to find your own answers.
I was also wondering if you can imagine yourself happy? What would that be like? What would it take?
Please post again and tell everyone how things are going. AprilA.
Posted by In Need on April 14, 2000, at 15:31:25
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by AprilA. on April 14, 2000, at 14:52:53
One area of resentment in my life is with friends and family. I am very accepting and understanding of personal flaws. I am very uncritical, but I just never get the same in return. In return I just get judged and criticized. They try to dominate and control me. For me, the relationships are unpleasant and unfair. Lately, I realize more and more there is nothing in the relationships for me. So I have been isolating myself from them. I rarely make phone calls anymore. I do feel lonely, but contacting people just seems self-destructive. I was an emotionally abused child, and somehow, emotionally abusive people are drawn to me. Somehow they see me as a target. I'm on an antidepressant. I've been on it 2 weeks, and I don't notice any effect yet. I feel very worthless. I don't know what to do. I think about suicide a lot. I need help. Thank-you for your feedback.
Posted by Carolyn on April 14, 2000, at 17:48:20
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
If joy is dependent upon good fortune, why don't 9/10th of the world's people commit suicide? Because there is hope.
Posted by Racer on April 14, 2000, at 21:31:13
In reply to Re: Suicide, posted by In Need on April 14, 2000, at 15:31:25
I, too, was emotionally abused as a child, as were many of us here. Some people on this board can tell you that I sounded very similar when I first found this place. It may not have given me joy, but it certainly gave me heartfelt support which sustained me on my search for relief from the depression I was experiencing.
Now that I've told you my qualifications, I'll tell you some of what sustained me when things were at their worst:
My cats would do things that were cute. Admittedly, they also were pains in the you know where, but sometimes they'd be cute. Like the little idiot cat who would surf around the rug with one paw stretched out in front of him, his nose to the ground, his butt in the air, and trace the paisley design! Or the midsized idiot cat who would lie on her back with all four feet in the air, or carry socks around in her mouth talking to them. Then there was the monster cat who would get into bed with me and purr me to sleep every night. If I woke up in the middle of the night, he'd run to the head of the bed, crawl under the covers, cuddle close to me and purr for all he was worth until I got quiet again. Some nights, I swear he'd sigh as though he was sick of this onerous job, but start purring me to sleep anyway.
My computer brought me hope, too. Every time I found a problem and fixed it, or wrote something clear enough for a newby to follow, I felt a great deal of satisfaction. Some nights I'd work all night, simply because it was the only way to sustain that dopamine high. Many times in my life, I've found that feelings of competance precede feelings of joy.
I sew, which also brings calm and peace and satisfaction to me. In fact, anything imaginative helps me when depression starts. All I have to do is force myself to ignore the tape of my mother's voice saying that I never finish anything / am not careful enough / cut too many corners / need to be neater / et cetera. That's a tough order, but I'm learning to do it. The fact is, it's intensely satisfying for me to see the good work which I do, in fact, do. My sewing is good enough - a concept my profoundly unhappy mother has never discovered. My mother no longer sews because she considers that she is 'not good enough' at it. I still sew because making all those mistakes, and cutting all those corners, and ending up with all those unfinished items TAUGHT me to sew well enough to take the time to do it and gain the satisfaction from a well pressed seam, or a nice buttonhole.
Joy is elusive. Happiness? Who can say. Neither of them are butterflies, you can't go out with a net and catch them. The best we can do is live our lives on the lookout for them, waiting by the side of the road. If we look down at the ground in despair at all times, we'll never see the joy and happiness smiling shyly at us from amongst the violets.
Here's some actual wisdom, or what passes for it in my pathetic brain:
If you find that the people around you are emotionally abusive, and that you 'seem to attract' emotionally abusive people to you, check out what you do to make yourself attractive to them. Mostly such people are bullies, they don't want you to stand up for yourself, they don't want you to disagree. The only way to stop attracting this type is to learn to stand up for yourself. How, you ask? FAKE IT! Honestly, I learned to fake it, and it was frightening as anything I've ever done. Eventually, it was second nature, then one day, I realized I wasn't faking it at all. I'd really taken it inside me. That's not easy, and it does help to have someone offering acceptance and support to you. In my case, I didn't have that. In your case, at least there's a forum like this one to offer something to help you.
The other thing that helped me was a depression support group. Now, you're not going to find perfect people there, and everyone may spend a lot of time talking about themselves, but those few minutes when the whole group talks about and to you will help. Take a friend with you the first time, or go to one far from home the first time, whatever makes you most comfortable. Just give it a try. It took a crowbar to pry me out of the house the first time, because I was so scared by it, but it helped me so much. By the third time I went, I looked forward to it all week, because it was a place I could show up as is: no shower? No problem! In pajamas because I couldn't get out of bed? And? At least I made it, and everyone gave me the cheers that showing up really deserved.
Good luck to you, and remember: life is hungry. Did you know that everyone who jumps out a window or off a bridge lands with torn up hands from scrabbling to catch hold of something to stop the fall? I think many suicides are not really trying to die, but only to stop the pain and suffering of life. Maybe it's only our relative affluence and fortune that gives us the ease necessary for the sort of despair you describe. If we really had to fight for food, maybe we wouldn't have time to think of how miserable we are? I don't know. I only know that my heart goes out to you. I hope that you find here some of the support I have found here.
Posted by Abby on April 15, 2000, at 0:14:51
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
In Need. At such times, it's generally best to avoid metaphysical speculations.
If you feel that awful, you should call your doctor. Are you seeing a psychiatrist or did you get the medecine from your internist? Support groups are a good idea, especially if you don't think you can afford therapy just now.
What anti-depressant are you taking?An antipsychotic like Zyprexa or Risperdal could give you quick relief. Also, consider ECT. Do NOT buy a gun, and if you think you're going to try to kill yourself, go to the emergency room immediately.
Here's a reason to live:) I'm an incredibly selfish person. Having tried to offer advice, I need to get some feedback. We need you to come back to give us progress reports.
Abby
Posted by Mark H. on April 15, 2000, at 1:05:29
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
I emphatically disagree with your premise that joy or happiness is dependent on fortunate circumstances. Nothing could be further from true. The mind is an interesting toy, but when it breaks it tends to suck. Fortunately, it can be tricked. If you compulsively repeat "I have everything I need to be happy right now" about 500 times (which after all, isn't that many times), and say it with some conviction -- as though you believed it were true -- it WILL have a positive effect on your mood, even if it's just to make you chuckle with dark irony that something so banal and artificial can actually manipulate your consciousness.
At one of the lower points in my life I was sitting outside in a freezing rain with five other guys making far less than minimum wage to set reinforcement bar for a new concrete slab at a rural fire station. We couldn't feel the wire because of the cold, and we were tearing our hands to shreds twisting it around the rough re-bar. We were all bleeding all over the frigging place, shaking and hardly able to see. It was degrading and miserable and totally unnecessary.
So in a moment of madness, I said, "I'm having the most fun I've ever had in my life. I can't think of a more fulfilling work experience! I'm a firefighter for the State of California, and I'm sitting in puddle setting rebar in a freezing downpour. This is really, really fun." etc.
Well, the weird thing was that it worked! Somehow, we all started laughing and enjoying ourselves, and we got up out of our pissy misery and pity and finished the awful job. We succeeded in tricking our minds, even when our conditions hadn't changed.
Happiness -- sadness -- joy -- depression: it's all an illusion. Try not to take any of it too seriously. Happiness is hard work, not a by-product of fortunate circumstances. Most of the truly miserable people I know have plenty of good fortune, while a surprising number of my homeless acquaintances actually are happier than some of my colleagues at work. Go figure.
All is impermanent. When we're young, that idea scares us. When we're old (or suffering, as you are) it offers us comfort. One of the symptoms of depression is the illusion that you have always felt this way and always will. Someday you will not be depressed, and then you will hardly be able to believe that you felt the way you do today. For now, you just have to take my word for it.
It's worth waiting around to see what changes next. Please keep us posted -- most of us have been where you are.
Respectfully,
Mark H.
Posted by Noa on April 15, 2000, at 14:21:40
In reply to Re: Doctors not death, posted by Abby on April 15, 2000, at 0:14:51
> In Need. At such times, it's generally best to avoid metaphysical speculations.
I agree totally. When I am in a real funk, I tend to be drawn into the mire of hopeless metaphysics--ie, hopelessly obsessed with the meaning of life, or rather, lack thereof. And I know I shouldn't be letting myself get bogged down in all that and that inevitably, all of my conclusions will be depressing and hopeless. When things are better, I am usually busy with stuff and people and therefore less preoccupied with the absence of meaning in my life. I agree with Abby: try to allow yourself to postpone such ruminations, to tell yourself, "now isn't the best time to figure these things out." I know it sounds pat, but it can help to try to distract yourself.However, it sounds like maybe you need more help than that, more structure until your meds kick in. Maybe you should talk to your doc about going into the hospital or to a day treatment program. Hopefully, the AD you have just started taking will be a good one for you. But even so, it might take a few more weeks to kick in. And there is the possibility that this particular med isn't the right one for you and you will need to try another one. If you can wait this out safely, good. But if you are very preoccupied with suicide, I think you should go into the hospital.
In the meantime, it is good not to be alone. I know this is a sticky question for us lonely depressed types, but is there someone you can spend more time with who will help you stay safe?
I have more to say about the friendship stuff, but I will save it for later, if you don't mind. I am mostly concerned with you being safe now.
Posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 17:01:33
In reply to Re: Doctors not death, posted by Noa on April 15, 2000, at 14:21:40
You all have no idea how deeply I appreciate your responses. I am in a particularly bad place right now, and in a way, I can see that it comes from having better self-esteem. For instance, the reason I have almost no friends right now is because I am no longer willing to put up with thier lack of support and condescending attitudes. Like I said before, I tend to very non-judgmental with friends. I always try to think of something nice to say, even if they did not handle some situation as well as they could have. Friendship isn't about putting people down, but that attitude never seems to be mutual. I don't get it in return, so I'm lonely right now. I'm shedding the old unsupportive friends, and hopefully, I will make new friends who will respect me. I know I need to be more assertive. It is hard for me, though. I find it incredibly draining. Maybe I'm having growing pains. I also feel very unhappy that my presence on earth does not help others more (I mean on a wider scale than friendship.) I want to be more helpful to others, but I don't know how to direct myself. I have always had that problem. I do see a psychiatrist, and right now we are working on finding the right meds. Am I in a dangerous place? Yes, I think I still am. Last night while having a glass of wine, I thought, "Maybe I should just do it now while I am feeling good. Maybe I should just get it over with." I own a gun, but I would never give it up. I want the power to exit life if I decide to. I'm sorry this is so morose. Forgive me. This is the voice of depression, I suppose. Don't worry, though. I probably will not hurt myself. Your responses have made me feel wanted on this earth. Thank-you so much from the bottom of my heart.
Posted by boB on April 15, 2000, at 20:27:21
In reply to Follow-up, posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 17:01:33
I suppose boB will never publicly admit to having suicidal thoughts, though if he doesn't maybe he can't speak with authority on this subject. So if you can forgive my odd style of obfustication, i will weigh in on the subjet.
I don't mean to say no to what anyone else says to you here, though I sense the meaningful part to you is the concern people express as much as it is the content of the advice. If we were walking alone down the street, I would frankly suggest that the pmeds are part of the problem. On the other hand, I never admit to using illegal meds, but have said before on this board that "my friends do it." I have noticed some of their darkest hours are in times when they cannot get access to their favorite outlaw medication aka MaryJ, though sometimes after a few days or weeks without, they tend to stablize. (Jail inmates tend to go through that same cycle, if they are accustomed to using weed as a mood stabilizer.)
I agree with you that it is your choice to live or die. Some cite the law regarding this, but the law is different in each state, and different if your are in Washington D.C. or a national park or forest. I know how to cause my death by several means. The reason I live is because I choose to, and because it is a habit that I will have to give up soon enough anyway. I bet when I do die, it might be an unwelcome and perhaps painful suprise.
Me or somebody I know very well has spent some time talking to well-meaning young volunteers at suicide hotlines. Mostly they have a book of social services so they can send the caller somewhere else. The services are often of dubious value, and it seems to me they do not lead to any meaningful personal attachments of the sort that tend to discourage suicide. The hot line staffs often have some training in how to seem empathetic. Many of them though, if they met me on the street, would likely not like me at all, and would especially resent how little I appreciate the cultural things that are important to them. The last place I would go if I were feeling suicidal would be an emergency room or a psych clinic, where people would use my condition as a way of reinforcing their ideas about science, medicine and mental health.
If a person chooses to die, it might make a lot of people greive. It adds to the gloominess that we reflect when we feel depressed, and ending our own individual life will do little to change the greater web of life of which we are a part.I am not a big fan of this "organic" model of "mental disease." To be sure, many of the symptoms, such as depression and bipolar mood swings can be observed as organic changes, but reading your post and many others here tends to reinforce what intuitively seems to me to be true. I think many of us feel low because we are sensitive, and because we try to hold as true ideas that are contradictory. Our civilization tends to condemn that way of seeing things and even our national constitution implys that we should persue happiness. I am not of that mindset.
If the meds help you to deal with the suffering you see around you, and if they don't reinforce your suicidal ideas, I would not spend much time trying to redirect you. There is plenty on this board pro and con that can help explain this in other ways. But my view is that SSRI's increase levels of reinforcing neurochemicals, and if the neurological circuits in your mind see the dark side of this world and want to react, SSRI's might, i think, reinforce your prefered path of action.
Me, when I am really down, I don't want to change my mood. I want to let it be. I more want people to stop telling me that I should be up when I am pretty certain I am down for a reason. To be honest, telling me I am down because I am bipolar or because depression is a disease is like calling me ignorant and saying I don't have enought sense to have the appropriate feelings in reaction to events in my society. It can be very disturbing to face the emptiness of our society, and it can be even more difficult to admit how wrong people in authority can be, especially well meaning people such as psychiatric doctors. I see it as a farce for people to tell me about glasses being half full or half empty when my world is dying of thirst and only a chosen few even have a glass.
Anyway, the best funerals are ones where we can laugh and cry alike, and suicide funerals are usually not that way. With a lifelong effort, you might be able to better control the last thing these cynical selfserving friends and family say about you.
Here are two things that gave me some cheer today:
1. The stock markets cataclysmic collapse, dampening the national mood of glee surounding consumer culture.
2. The niavette of the Washington D.C. police, allowing themselves to be drawn into reactionary tactics against anti-world-bank protesters that will only help our cause.p.s. Chronic pot use can clog your lungs and can cause a very uncomfortable death by emphasema.
p.s.s. If your are looking for purpose in life, you are welcome in the army I am a member of, which is fighting a multi-millenial war to preserve the web of life and to resist the notion that humans are superior. Knowing that we will not likely win the war in our life time sometimes makes our sacrifices a little easier to offer.
Posted by liz on April 15, 2000, at 20:51:12
In reply to Follow-up, posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 17:01:33
Dear In Need; the fact that you are able to take all the encouraging words to heart is a good sign! I don't have much experience with some of the pain you describe, and I need to learn more. Help me and others understand even more, beyond what you have already. Please hang in there! Give it some time, please! Re-read some of the posts from people who have been where you are now. They all somehow found some hope of a better future and I sincerely believe you will too. If anyone one of us ends it prematurely, we have lost the ability to find that hope that I know is there. It is a process, it may take some time, but please take that time! Allow your meds and your therapist the opportunity to help alleviate some of your anxieties and pain. I know this is possible! If you need to, get to a hospital or call a hotline. Something comes to mind and I can't remember the direct quote, but it comes from "No Man is an Island". The gist is that we are not "islands" floating out there alone; that we are all diminished by the disaffection or loss of another. I know that in this seemingly impersonal world, we go through our days thinking that no one knows how we feel or what we are thinking; we think they are indifferent. But I know, if people could really read ME, most would rush to my aid! We just don't cry out enough sometimes for their interest or attention. So I'm in total agreement with you that you might need to shed some of the negative people around you and that you need to be more assertive about how you really feel. That approach has worked wonders for me! When I recently confessed to people around me how I really felt, they were very supportive. I'd just hidden it so well, no one knew! Well, I don't know that I've been helpful, but your post really got to me and I thought I'd go out on a limb and write to you - something I'm not very comfortable doing! I'm going to keep you in my thoughts and will pray (and I'm not the religious sort) that you will continue to feel uplifted by the support of people that care! I might also suggest that you hand your gun to someone else for the time being. Please, please, continue to draw sustenence from the people here who really care about you! I think we all sense that you have much to contribute if you just allow yourself the time for that contribution to find its voice!! Take care of yourself, Liz
************************************************You say you want to help others and I know you can if you're with us!! You just haven't had the opportunity yet to see where you can be of help to others. I know that will come soon!!
You all have no idea how deeply I appreciate your responses. I am in a particularly bad place right now, and in a way, I can see that it comes from having better self-esteem. For instance, the reason I have almost no friends right now is because I am no longer willing to put up with thier lack of support and condescending attitudes. Like I said before, I tend to very non-judgmental with friends. I always try to think of something nice to say, even if they did not handle some situation as well as they could have. Friendship isn't about putting people down, but that attitude never seems to be mutual. I don't get it in return, so I'm lonely right now. I'm shedding the old unsupportive friends, and hopefully, I will make new friends who will respect me. I know I need to be more assertive. It is hard for me, though. I find it incredibly draining. Maybe I'm having growing pains. I also feel very unhappy that my presence on earth does not help others more (I mean on a wider scale than friendship.) I want to be more helpful to others, but I don't know how to direct myself. I have always had that problem. I do see a psychiatrist, and right now we are working on finding the right meds. Am I in a dangerous place? Yes, I think I still am. Last night while having a glass of wine, I thought, "Maybe I should just do it now while I am feeling good. Maybe I should just get it over with." I own a gun, but I would never give it up. I want the power to exit life if I decide to. I'm sorry this is so morose. Forgive me. This is the voice of depression, I suppose. Don't worry, though. I probably will not hurt myself. Your responses have made me feel wanted on this earth. Thank-you so much from the bottom of my heart.
Posted by KellyR., on April 15, 2000, at 21:53:49
In reply to Follow-up, posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 17:01:33
> You all have no idea how deeply I appreciate your responses. I am in a particularly bad place right now, and in a way, I can see that it comes from having better self-esteem. For instance, the reason I have almost no friends right now is because I am no longer willing to put up with thier lack of support and condescending attitudes. Like I said before, I tend to very non-judgmental with friends. I always try to think of something nice to say, even if they did not handle some situation as well as they could have. Friendship isn't about putting people down, but that attitude never seems to be mutual. I don't get it in return, so I'm lonely right now. I'm shedding the old unsupportive friends, and hopefully, I will make new friends who will respect me. I know I need to be more assertive. It is hard for me, though. I find it incredibly draining. Maybe I'm having growing pains. I also feel very unhappy that my presence on earth does not help others more (I mean on a wider scale than friendship.) I want to be more helpful to others, but I don't know how to direct myself. I have always had that problem. I do see a psychiatrist, and right now we are working on finding the right meds. Am I in a dangerous place? Yes, I think I still am. Last night while having a glass of wine, I thought, "Maybe I should just do it now while I am feeling good. Maybe I should just get it over with." I own a gun, but I would never give it up. I want the power to exit life if I decide to. I'm sorry this is so morose. Forgive me. This is the voice of depression, I suppose. Don't worry, though. I probably will not hurt myself. Your responses have made me feel wanted on this earth. Thank-you so much from the bottom of my heart.
My father killed himself when i was 12yrs old, I'll never forget the day before he died when he called me & asked if i would come live w/ him at his parents house,he told me that he had the house to himself because he kicked his parents
out. (At the time i didn't know that the cops had the house surrounded when i was talking to him),I told him that I would have to talk to my mom first,I would of loved to live w/ him but my mom was very abusive & i was scared to death of her if i went.I never forgave myself for saying that,could it of changed things maybe he could of been there to stop my mom from beating us,may i would of never been sexaul abused by my neighbor,or rapped by my best freinds brother,& i might of never gotting so down that i tried so many times to kill myself just to be w/ him. When i found out that my father was gunned down by the cops on fathers day noless,I didn't find out til a month later that he planed the whole thing out so the cops would kill him,I found it saw hard to let him go, I couldn't beleive that he was gone that he wouldn't leave me w/ my mom that beat me so bad that i have 30% hearing lost in my left ear,from being hit acrossed the head so many times.It took a long time to aceppt that he was gone,Then i got so down that i tried to kill myself and now that i'm 30yrs. old i'm still in the same boat,just think would you want someone to go throw what you feel? That's what i tell myself when i get suicidal,I couldn't do that to my kids.
I work as a nurses aide helping people that are dying,& i find that giving them happiness in there final days is the best prozac for me.
Find something to do like helping the down & out,kids dying of cancer,read for the blind something to keep your mind off of dying,something that you can be proud of doing,that you made someone feel happy for the moment in time. Good luck
kellyR.
Posted by bob on April 15, 2000, at 22:32:38
In reply to Re: Follow-up, posted by KellyR., on April 15, 2000, at 21:53:49
> I am in a particularly bad place right now, and in a way, I can see that it comes from having better self-esteem.
Hey, I.N., I hear where you're coming from! I am still pulling out of the WORST depressive episode I've had in at least the last ten years, and a big part of it was the fact that my meds were doing their job. I was being brought from a state of mind in which I could not care about how f*ck*d my life is to a state where I *did* care. Now, if everything was all rosy and sweet, I'm sure that would have made me feel just swell.
Given, however, that my life is a mess (tho it was much more of a mess back in December when this started), **caring** about it wasn't the most pleasant thing I could have done.
If you've ever been --> <-- that close to frostbite and have had the wonderful experience of bloodflow returning to those parts of your body, you have some idea of just how much agony "caring" can bring into a heart that's been frozen stiff for years.
I had the good fortune, tho, of realizing this pain was something I needed to get through, beyond, whatever, before I could go any further in healing. It sounds like you're coming to the same realization.
Hang tight -- the ride may get rougher, but it sounds like you can see beyond it and you can get yourself to where you need to be.
be well,
bob
Posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 23:13:47
In reply to Re: Follow-up, posted by boB on April 15, 2000, at 20:27:21
> p.s.s. If your are looking for purpose in life, you are welcome in the army I am a member of, which is fighting a multi-millenial war to preserve the web of life and to resist the notion that humans are superior. Knowing that we will not likely win the war in our life time sometimes makes our sacrifices a little easier to offer.
boB, where do I sign up? Lately, I feel more and more strongly that animals are as equally important as people and that they should be protected as any child should be protected, although we don't do a very good job of protecting children.
bob, I love my dog, too. I agonize over what would happen to her if I did myself in. I don't know anyone who is in the position to take care of her. I don't have any children, but anyone who loves animals knows that they are like children. I think about Susan Smith rolling her car into a lake to protect her children from the torments of this world. She was ill, but desperation leads to drastic acts. I wouldn't harm my dog. Some things are sacred. The animal shelter close to here is pro-life. She would still go through hell, though. She is extremely bonded to me. She shakes violently when I have to leave her someplace.
I'm just waiting to see if this antidepressant will lift me out of this state. It's a bad one.
I'll try to reread some of your responses, and I'll try to get through this.
Posted by Racer on April 15, 2000, at 23:27:00
In reply to Follow-up, posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 17:01:33
Helping people is a great thing. And you know what? It can also help you more directly than you know.
My whole career began because I got all the experience I could in my chosen field as a volunteer in non-profits. Those experiences strenghthened my skills in training, computers, administration, writing, public speaking, charitable begging, and everything else I need except spelling! If you want some other reasons to explore your options in that area:
1. Most volunteer opportunities give you an excuse to LEAVE THE HOUSE! If you're at all like me, depression will lock you into your own bedroom, let alone your own house. Volunteering means getting your attention outside of yourself, and usually getting your body out of the house.
2. Someone wants you. What a concept! Here I sit, too disgusting to stand myself, yet someone out there is hoping that I'll show up and do some good. Someone will smile and be happy to see me. Kewl! (Blood donation is another of this sort of feel-good, BTW)
3. Volunteering is a great way to meet people and make friends. Some of my best and most valued friends have come into my life through non-profit involvement. I can't say enough about it.
4. Financial gain. If you work it right, many non-profits pay better than for-profits. Just don't count on it, and expect to spend a lot of time living on Peanut Butter Sandwiches, since it'll be all you can afford if you try to make it a full time job.
5. Experience of the world you can't get any other way. There are things you'll learn in any non-profit which you'd never see otherwise. And watching to find those things can be fun.
6. Feeling good about what you're doing can make a major difference in your life and in your outlook.
After more than ten years in the non-profit world, I can't say enough about it. It's a great place to learn better habits of life, from setting boundaries to interacting normally with others. It's safer than the average job, in that you usually won't be financially devastated if it doesn't work out, and the people you work with are usually so overjoyed to have any help at all that they'll adjust as well as possible if you show up at all, never mind your condition when you do. (One rule: show up sober. That's been the biggest problem I've had with volunteers over the years! You'd be amazed at the condition of some bozos I've tried to work with!)
To find local volunteer opportunities in your area, check out the local downtown association or chamber of commerce. Your city or county government may have a volunteer coordinator, but their job is largely finding places for miscreants to do community service.
Best luck, and much support if your decide to try something along these lines. (And remember: many volunteer based organizations need people to make tons of telephone calls, or stuff envelopes, or write articles. In other words, things you can usually do at home... Alone... If you want to help, but without climbing out of your pajamas...)
Posted by bob on April 15, 2000, at 23:51:59
In reply to About helping people..., posted by Racer on April 15, 2000, at 23:27:00
Having been in that sector as well, I must agree with Racer ... there *is* money to be made in non-profits.
Yeah, okay, friends too. A very good friend of mine got a post-doc out here in NYC. Sadly, our schedules kept us out of touch most of the time. Turns out she really isn't a big city person -- the only way she survived was by volunteering. She made some great friends and did a lot of good (for others, but much more for herself).
I.N. -- I'm glad to hear you have a dog! Growing up in blue-collar suburbia, I thought dogs were backyard ornaments as much as companions. Living in Manhattan sure changed that idea quick. If you're a dog person in NYC, you enter an entire subculture -- it's like you've just joined the coolest social club around. Before I got my shepard, I adopted a dog from the ASPCA. She was healthy for 3 days, then died the fifth day I had her. But in that short period of time, I learned more from her about love and compassion than I had from humanity in a long, long time. Back to the social club thing-- in her three healthy days, I met more people than I had in the nine months prior to that, from the moment I moved here. NYC may have a reputation for nasty, distant inhabitants ... but having a dog changes that completely.
It's just amazing how being a dog-owner can bring out the "humanity" in people.
What medication does your doc have you on? C'mon, we're In Need of details! Spill it! There are a TON of knowledgeable folks out here, but we can't work in a vacuum. If we're going to help you through to a better place, we need data, okay?
cheers!
bob
Posted by Janice on April 16, 2000, at 18:23:20
In reply to To boB and bob and everyone else, posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 23:13:47
hello in need,
Sorry to hear about all your pain.
I imagine you know this but the more homes a dog has, the earlier a dog is when they die. The trauma of switching homes literally takes years off their lives.
When people (who know anything about dogs) meet my dog, they always tell me she is just like me--overly intense, highly strung and highly-reactive. Sometimes I feel guilty that she has picked up my mentally ill vibes. Anyway I love her, and your right, what that woman Susan did was terrible.
Your dog sounds like he really needs you. Poor little guy shaking violently when you're gone.
When I was a kid, my friend's family went on holidays and boarded their dog at a kennel. Well within 5 days the dog died from, what the vet called, a broken heart.
good luck In Need, Janice
did you ever think of doing volunteer work with animals
Posted by boB on April 16, 2000, at 18:48:42
In reply to To boB and bob and everyone else, posted by In Need on April 15, 2000, at 23:13:47
> > p.s.s. If your are looking for purpose in life, you are welcome in the army I am a member of, which is fighting a multi-millenial war to preserve the web of life and to resist the notion that humans are superior. Knowing that we will not likely win the war in our life time sometimes makes our sacrifices a little easier to offer.
>
> boB, where do I sign up? Lately, I feel more and more strongly that animals are as equally important as people and that they should be protected as any child should be protected, although we don't do a very good job of protecting children.
>I.N. - makes me feel good that you recognize this. As for signing up, I heard Arlo Guthrie many years ago (that's Woodie Guthrie's son. Arlo sang City of New Orleans and Alices Restaraunt, among other songs) Anyway, Arlo said that things in the movements (a general movement for social justice, etc.) are so infiltrated and misdirected people have to act on their own. The citizen's militia's of 1990's fame championed a technique called "leaderless resistance." Both of these strategies imply that people know what needs to be done and act on their own without having to be told what to do. The great thing about that way of activism is you can be a part of a group - any group, such as Earth First!, GreenPeace, or the anti-World-Bank coalitions, but you still have the freedom to move about more or less at your own will. Individaul actors learn for themselves about the conflicts in our world, and about the often competing merits of forces on both sides of those conflicts and act to resolve conflict in ways that help everyone, rather than create an Us vs. Them scenario.
You know best what appeals to you. You can get into groups - heck even like i am participating in this Babbleland discussion, where my philosophy might be very opposed to the dominant philosophy of the group, but because i care for the people as fellow critters, who are living out their lives in the same narrow window of time as mine, I can offer genuine affection and insight, and both teach and learn. And since most of the pagan, animistic souls I side with don't expect to win this struggle in our lifetime, I am spared the delima of needing to act definitavely for immediate results. Things seen in this way are more natural - individuals can at the same time be seperate, autonomous and powerful, but also dependant parts of a system they have only a little power to effect.
Learning to abide the suffering caused by these contradictions makes me more able to abide whatever organicly mediated mood swings i suffer.
As for where to sign up, all I can say is that when I realy need spiritual respite in this life, i tend to gravitate toward either natural environments, or toward people whose lives are lived in a natural environment. Framing houses, or landscaping are great occupations because you are outside in the open air. I hung around a lot of native people, but turning to them as if they are supposed to endow me with some ancient wisdom is a dead end street. Looking in books feeds the mind, but I take everything I read with a grain of salt. Language is a bit of a burden, when you consider that life related among itself for eons and eons in terms far beyond language , and survived for a long time before our unique species started trying to speak in precise words.
Volunteering, helping others, even hanging with people in informal settings who are more in need than myself allows me to look beyond the somewhat irrelevant trauma of my life, and to experience the greater tangle of living and dying of which humanity is but a small part. Participating in protest groups sometimes gives me a sense of accomplishment, though reporting the news of their activity almost gives me the same sense. Study and learning, in highly technical area or in social sciences and linquistic arts seems to help me think more clearly sometimes.
One other tidbit, a native lady I knew once said it is not for people to manage natural resources. They can manage themselves. All we can do is manage the way we get along with our own kind. I sortof beleive that, though I also realize that other living things are my own kind. A popular native prayers is that we would honor all of our relations.
Maybe you, In Need, will come up with the definative answer for all of us concerning where to sign up. I'll have my eyes open...
Posted by In Need on April 17, 2000, at 3:24:53
In reply to Re: About helping people..., posted by bob on April 15, 2000, at 23:51:59
I'm on Effexor XR. I haven't been on it very long, going on 10 days. I know I have to give it a chance, but I've heard it's supposed to be fast acting. My doctor keeps telling me it's a good drug, so I'm sticking it out. I just wish I felt better. I am worthless as I am now, all I do is eat and sleep and watch TV. The highlight of my day is taking my dog for a walk. I want out of this depression.
Posted by boB on April 17, 2000, at 17:21:56
In reply to Med, posted by In Need on April 17, 2000, at 3:24:53
In Need,
you wrote:all I do is eat and sleep and watch TV. The highlight of my day is taking my dog for a walk
Not to diminish the urgency of your condition, but if that alone suffices as evidence of depression, there is no wonder ADs have found such a wide market in our culture. There are countless millions who share your routine and have little hope of finding more interesting activities. The standard out from the habits you mention is a weekend at the lake, using a jet ski, or perhaps a trip to the mall. In my assessment, more consumer activity only furthers the spiral of consumer addiction which seems to be involved in so much depression. Based solely on the symptoms you mention in this post, I suggest we are looking at a lackluster culture as much as we are looking at a lack of luster in your life. Even if the meds provide an uplifting mood from which you are more likely to find inspiration, you still need to find some meaningful activity.
I don't agree with everything Mike Cohen says but maybe check out www.ecopsych.com. He has a plan for learning to recognize why walking the dog is the highlight of your day. I could not buy into the anti-logical aspects of some of his science, but I must admit that my life gradually went in a different direction, out of a bad slump, a few experimental days on his program.
Posted by bob on April 17, 2000, at 20:19:29
In reply to Re: Med, posted by boB on April 17, 2000, at 17:21:56
kinda gets back to what I said about finding a reason to live, if you ask me. Walking your dog each day is a great place to start. How can you make it a better experience for both of you?
I live in the very northern tip of Manhattan, a section called Inwood with the last "natural" forest left on the island. Also happens to be where the native americans who got hustled by the Dutch back in the 1600's lived. Anyway, I've been promising to take my pups out in the woods for morning walks all this week (spring break! yea!). Today (Mon) and tomorrow look like cold washouts, but Wednesday and Thursday are supposed to be sunny and warm.
I also need to get my Shepard back down to midtown where she grew up. All along 6th Avenue from the mid-50's to 42nd Street or so are a bunch of buildings with fountains ... my Shepard goes absolutely nuts around them! I think its the sound they make, but she starts prancing and dancing and barking like a complete nut.
... then again, like boB said, a trip to the mall can be fun, too.
As for the Effexor, there are others here with more wisdom on that one than I have ... never been on it. The thing to keep in mind is not just giving it time to work, but being ready to accept that it may not be the right med. Me? I respond more to meds that work on norepinephrine and dopamine than seratonin, but SSRIs are so in vogue it took some time before my pdoc and I got around to trying first a TCA and now a stimulant. Hang in there.
cheers,
bob
Posted by allisonm on April 18, 2000, at 19:57:46
In reply to Suicide, posted by In Need on April 13, 2000, at 22:58:48
It's been a few days. Just wondering, how are things?
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