![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:19:33
Had a traumatic experience yesterday. I was grocery shopping, and picked up a bottle of water for the drive home. I set it in the front of the cart by my purse, and at some point, took my wallet out to look for something and then absentmindedly put the bottle of water into my purse along with the wallet. So, I pay for my groceries and am out the door, when the store security guy stops me. I then spend the next hour of my life being terrorized and intimated by the manager and the security guy, as I try to convince them that it was an honest mistake. Now, this is a store that I and my husband have shopped at for years. The pharmacist knows me personally (how could he not, with my history?), and confirmed to the manager that I was a regular customer. Still, they treated me like a hardened criminal. The worst thing was that they had a paper that I was supposed to sign acknowledgeing that I had "intentionally" left the store with the item. I told them I would sign if they modified the form, because I couldn't say that I had done it "intentionally". So, now their saying that If I "refuse to sign" they are calling the sheriff (keep in mind, I have been crying this whole time). I keep saying, "I'm not refusing to sign, but I didn't do it intentionally.". The security guy suddenly takes the paper saying I'm refusing to sign, and writes something on it. Now, I'm positive the police are going to come and am crying hysterically. There's more, but the end is that they finally let me leave, but I'm "not allowed to ever shop at this store again". Oh, the other thing is that I kept trying to explain that my antidepressant had made me a little forgetful, because the dose was just upped. I even said they could call my Pdoc to confirm this.
I'm sorry to bend your ears, but it was all VERY traumatic, and unfortunately it's the kind of thing that my mind will go around and around with, so for the next couple months, I'll be driving myself crazy with it. Any comforting words would be greatly appreciated. I know a lot of you can relate to the drug induced absentmindedness, but I bet none of you ever almost went to jail for it!(I'm trying to see some humor in all this!). Thanks so much for listening! CarolAnn
Posted by Chris A. on April 6, 2000, at 11:07:16
In reply to criminal behavior? (long), posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:19:33
(((((hugs))))))....sigh
It could have been me. I do feel for you.
Chris A.
Posted by boB on April 6, 2000, at 12:33:02
In reply to Re: criminal behavior? (long), posted by Chris A. on April 6, 2000, at 11:07:16
When confronted by security personnel at a store, never accompany them anywhere. If you have forgotten to pay for an item, immediately offer payment, or the return of the item. If you have no items in your possession, instruct them to remove their hands from your person and advise them of your intent to complain of criminal restraint and/or kidnapping. If security cameras are in place, advise the assailant (security guard) that they are being taped and that you intend to move toward your car or toward a checkout stand and that any effort on their part to interfere or to destroy video tape evidence will result in criminal and civil action. Never let anyone persuade you to implicate yourself without first consulting an attorney. Do not comply with even the initial stages of an interogation by private citizens. Only a police officer may stop you and then my only search you if strong probable cause exists or if they have a warrant. Surrendering your rights is to volunatarily embrace behaviors labeled in DSM-iv as dependant. You can beat that diagnosis by asserting your rights. It is a touch move, but it helps improve the mental health of our society when one person asserts their rights.
Posted by KarenB on April 6, 2000, at 12:33:04
In reply to criminal behavior? (long), posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:19:33
CarolAnn,
Oh, I really do feel for you. How humiliating! I have actually done things JUST like that before, the only difference is, I didn't get stopped at the door. Same reasons, just absentmindedness, medication adjustment, whatever. Hey, it doesn't require meds for a person to make a mistake, does it? It's a mistake, for crying out loud! So, please don't beat yourself up and obsess about this one. The store management and security are the ones who are afflicted...shall we say, anal, in this case. It's not like you brazenly stuck a pack of filet mignon down your shorts.
Smile. Go have an exceptionally good day - and find another grocery store:)
Your friend in crime,Karen
Posted by bob on April 6, 2000, at 13:00:45
In reply to Re: criminal behavior? (long), posted by KarenB on April 6, 2000, at 12:33:04
Sounds like a violation of your rights in many, many different ways, CarolAnn. I say it's time to take the offensive.
Maybe it's time to play a little "bad cop/good cop" reversal on them. I'm sure your husband must be upset at the way they treated you, so let him loose ... but be planful about it. Send him in on his own, demanding to speak to the manager, demanding to see the security tape, calling the pharmacist over to again confirm your history as a long-time customer (and not as someone on psych meds), and demanding to know who the regional manager for the store is (if it's a chain). Make as loud a fuss over their shoddy treatment of a loyal customer as he can. Put as much moral outrage as he can into it. Let him play to every male stereotype our culture will allow to put some oomph! into it all. Have him demand compensation for the way they treated you, starting with a formal, written apology from the manager and the security guard delivered in person to you with a verbal apology on top of it.
And if they don't go for that, have your husband lower his voice as threatening as he can, talk about a civil suit against the manager, the guard, the individual store and the chain seeking compensatory and punitive damages for their discriminatory behavior and for your pain and suffering due to their mental cruelty and verbal assault. Toss in violations of your civil rights by means of their trying to intimidate you into waving your rights by signing that "confession."
Who the Hell do they think they are, anyway?
You're the victim here, CarolAnn. Don't blame yourself. If you're going to run this over and over in your mind, then let it incite you to riot instead of beating yourself up.
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,
bob[ps. if your husband just isn't the intimidating type, let me at those goons. I'll have'em for breakfast.]
Posted by bob on April 6, 2000, at 13:07:53
In reply to criminal behavior? (long), posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:19:33
CarolAnn,
Is that store a national or regional chain? If so, who are they? What is the store number? What is the manager's name and the guard's name?
I say we start a letter writing campaign right here in Babbleland and give them a piece of our minds. I am so sick to death of the stigma and abuse we have to face at the hands of jackasses like these.
I'd even send this through to NAMI's Stigma Alert people.
Sorry, folks, but this *really* gets me Irish up ... grrrr....
bob
Posted by Noa on April 6, 2000, at 13:18:44
In reply to as a matter of fact ..., posted by bob on April 6, 2000, at 13:07:53
Geez, that WAS traumatic. Absentmindedness happens all the time to all kinds of folks, not just us psychos. Just the other day, my department administrative assistant told me she had walked out of the store with a bottle of water and when she noticed it in the parking lot, she went back in to pay.
I understand how you could get so upset in that situation--how scary!
What was the upshot--how did you leave? Did you sign?
They should not treat you this way. I am not sure what course of action you should take, but I am sure they would not like this story in the local neighborhood newspaper--you know, the weekly kind with ads from all the local merchants.
If it is a chain, I would consider going over their heads to complain. Definitely. You might also have your husband call the police to inquire about what the appropriate procedures are for merchants in this situation.
Posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 14:31:59
In reply to What is their problem??, posted by Noa on April 6, 2000, at 13:18:44
You all have made me feel SO much better! Thank you for the kind words and the advise.
Bob, my husband and I are planning to go talk to the head manager,who is on vacation, this Saturday. There's not a security tape(at least they didn't show me one), the security guy actually saw me put it in my purse, claiming that I "looked around to see if anyone was looking". And, you know, I probably did look around because I was shopping without a list, and kept thinking "oh, what else do I need", and probably turned back to check if there was anything in sight that I needed. Anyway, the main reason that we are going down there is so my husband can demand to see all the paper work and explain my side to the top store manager, depending on his response, we may go higher up the management ladder to complain.
Noa, I have considered telling it all to the newspaper, but don't think my husband would go for that. Also, I didn't end up signing the paper they were coercing me about, only because after going back and forth a bit, the security guard said, "That's it", and took it back, saying I was "refusing to sign". That turned out to be a good thing, because if they HAD been willing to take out the word "intentionally", I would have signed, and my husband said it was better that I didn't sign anything. The fact that they had said they would call the cops if I didn't sign, and then ended up letting me go anyway, really shows that they were just trying to intimidate, and coerce me into signing something incriminating. So, now I have to go back and try to get thru telling all the details of the whole story, but at least my husband will be there to support me.
Thank you all again, I am so grateful for my psycho-babble friends! CarolAnn
Posted by Victoria on April 6, 2000, at 18:52:54
In reply to Re: Many thanks, and some replys..., posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 14:31:59
I'd say, don't go back to the manager to explain, go back to complain! Really, you are in the right here and you ought to be asking for an apology and mentioning lawsuits. And if you husband is the type to do it, let him carry the ball. I know that may sound dependent, but for heaven's sake, after millenia of male domination, I think we're entitled to get at least some benefit from it once in a while! Good luck!
> You all have made me feel SO much better! Thank you for the kind words and the advise.
> Bob, my husband and I are planning to go talk to the head manager,who is on vacation, this Saturday. There's not a security tape(at least they didn't show me one), the security guy actually saw me put it in my purse, claiming that I "looked around to see if anyone was looking". And, you know, I probably did look around because I was shopping without a list, and kept thinking "oh, what else do I need", and probably turned back to check if there was anything in sight that I needed. Anyway, the main reason that we are going down there is so my husband can demand to see all the paper work and explain my side to the top store manager, depending on his response, we may go higher up the management ladder to complain.
> Noa, I have considered telling it all to the newspaper, but don't think my husband would go for that. Also, I didn't end up signing the paper they were coercing me about, only because after going back and forth a bit, the security guard said, "That's it", and took it back, saying I was "refusing to sign". That turned out to be a good thing, because if they HAD been willing to take out the word "intentionally", I would have signed, and my husband said it was better that I didn't sign anything. The fact that they had said they would call the cops if I didn't sign, and then ended up letting me go anyway, really shows that they were just trying to intimidate, and coerce me into signing something incriminating. So, now I have to go back and try to get thru telling all the details of the whole story, but at least my husband will be there to support me.
> Thank you all again, I am so grateful for my psycho-babble friends! CarolAnn
Posted by Greg on April 6, 2000, at 20:32:46
In reply to Re: Many thanks, and some replys..., posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 14:31:59
CarolAnn,
I can't say anything that the rest haven't already said, except that I now wonder if grocery store cops have to make the same "quota" that police officers do??? This is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard. I hope your husband "Kicks ass and takes names"! PLEASE let us know how this turns out......Regards,
Greg> You all have made me feel SO much better! Thank you for the kind words and the advise.
> Bob, my husband and I are planning to go talk to the head manager,who is on vacation, this Saturday. There's not a security tape(at least they didn't show me one), the security guy actually saw me put it in my purse, claiming that I "looked around to see if anyone was looking". And, you know, I probably did look around because I was shopping without a list, and kept thinking "oh, what else do I need", and probably turned back to check if there was anything in sight that I needed. Anyway, the main reason that we are going down there is so my husband can demand to see all the paper work and explain my side to the top store manager, depending on his response, we may go higher up the management ladder to complain.
> Noa, I have considered telling it all to the newspaper, but don't think my husband would go for that. Also, I didn't end up signing the paper they were coercing me about, only because after going back and forth a bit, the security guard said, "That's it", and took it back, saying I was "refusing to sign". That turned out to be a good thing, because if they HAD been willing to take out the word "intentionally", I would have signed, and my husband said it was better that I didn't sign anything. The fact that they had said they would call the cops if I didn't sign, and then ended up letting me go anyway, really shows that they were just trying to intimidate, and coerce me into signing something incriminating. So, now I have to go back and try to get thru telling all the details of the whole story, but at least my husband will be there to support me.
> Thank you all again, I am so grateful for my psycho-babble friends! CarolAnn
Posted by Noa on April 7, 2000, at 8:29:42
In reply to Re: Many thanks, and some replys..., posted by Greg on April 6, 2000, at 20:32:46
Don't worry about the "dependent" thing. Geez, what are families for? He has strengths that you don't have and vice versa, and his come in handy now.
Take good notes of everything that is said at this encounter. Maybe that can be your job while your husband does the talking.
Posted by Janice on April 7, 2000, at 13:44:52
In reply to Re: Many thanks, and some replys..., posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 14:31:59
Hi CarolAnn,
I'm sorry you had to experience this. It really could happen to anyone. I like the way you are handling the situation...going back to discuss it with them. I hope it doesn't swim around in your brain for months. Let us know if it does.I agree with Noa, take notes!
Janice
Posted by MHK on April 7, 2000, at 15:18:10
In reply to What is their problem??, posted by Noa on April 6, 2000, at 13:18:44
When I was a kid (13 or so), I got caught shoplifting. Unlike you, I did do it on purpose and it wasn't my first time -- although of course I told the security guard that it was. He scared the hell out of me and I never did it again, so I guess they do have reason to keep using intimidation tactics.HOWEVER (and this is a BIG however) what the hell were the guys at your store thinking?! Here's a grown woman, a regular customer, with a cart full of groceries (I assume) and she's supposedly stealing a bottle of *water*?!? Something you can get for free anywhere you go!?
These people were entirely too gung-ho and need to be brought down a peg. Definitely go back and stand your ground.
Good luck!
Posted by CarolAnn on April 7, 2000, at 15:59:03
In reply to as a matter of fact ..., posted by bob on April 6, 2000, at 13:07:53
Thanks again everyone for all the support.
I've been thinking(how could I not?). First, I wonder if anyone here at psycho-babble has legal background. I could use some legal ammunition for the demand(yes, only one) I want to make from the store. All I want is for them to give me all the forms and the pictures they took, does anyone think that is unreasonable?
Also, a question, given the fact that I am being treated for a medical condition(major depression), which (technically) caused the incident, does anyone think that, legally, there was discrimination involved? Are there legal ramifications to the fact that they were intimidating and coercing me to sign something that was A. self-incriminating and B. was actually a lie, since I absentmindedly took the water, but the form said, "intentionally".
Well, this is really just a shot in the dark, but if anyone does have any answers, thanks and God Bless you! CarolAnn
Posted by Victoria on April 7, 2000, at 16:53:25
In reply to Re: Please read, everyone (plea for help)., posted by CarolAnn on April 7, 2000, at 15:59:03
I don't have a legal background, but I have in the past consulted an attorney on a one-shot basis to find out what my rights were in a particular situation. It was a great help and worth the money. If you can't offord that, there might be a legal aid clinic at a law school or a social service agency near you. I do have a couple of thoughts: I think it is a good idea to make just one demand, but I'd suggest demanding a written apology. Even if they gave you the forms and pictures, they could keep copies. Also, I'd be wary of attributing the incident to your meds or psychiatric problem. In the first place, these things happen to lots of people. I did something similar in a fabric store once, put some buttons in my pocket so my hands would be free to pick up bolts of fabric, bought my fabric, and only realized when I got home that I had forgotten about the buttons. And I was young, on no meds, and not depressed when it happened! Given that these people are such idiots, I'd be concerned that talking abou meds or depression would just push all kinds of stigma buttons, and they might treat you worse, rather than better. And, I think (non-legal opinion), that if you did decide to take them to court (or they decided to take you), your raising the issue of meds or depression as a reason for your forgetfulness might entitle them to ask for your medical records, call you doctor as a witness, etc. I hope I'm not scaring you with this; I just personally tend to be very protective of who gets to know about my mental health issues. The bottom line is, I think it would be very helpful for you to consult an attorney to be clear about your legal rights and to demand an apology for how you have been treated. Don't forget that you are a good customer and probably know many other people who shop there who you might tell about this incident, so you do have some leverage. Go get 'em!
> Thanks again everyone for all the support.
>
> I've been thinking(how could I not?). First, I wonder if anyone here at psycho-babble has legal background. I could use some legal ammunition for the demand(yes, only one) I want to make from the store. All I want is for them to give me all the forms and the pictures they took, does anyone think that is unreasonable?
> Also, a question, given the fact that I am being treated for a medical condition(major depression), which (technically) caused the incident, does anyone think that, legally, there was discrimination involved? Are there legal ramifications to the fact that they were intimidating and coercing me to sign something that was A. self-incriminating and B. was actually a lie, since I absentmindedly took the water, but the form said, "intentionally".
> Well, this is really just a shot in the dark, but if anyone does have any answers, thanks and God Bless you! CarolAnn
Posted by kazoo on April 8, 2000, at 2:50:59
In reply to criminal behavior? (long), posted by CarolAnn on April 6, 2000, at 10:19:33
> I told them I would sign if they modified the form, because I couldn't say
> that I had done it "intentionally".^^^^^^^^^^
What you should have, and could have, done was to sign the bloody thing, and next
to your signature put "(SUD)" meaning "Signed Under Duress" which is a perfectly legal
thing to do. This is done all the time in government agencies when management tries to
get their employees to sign documents of reprimand.I had a similar incident happen to me and used the "SUD" notation, and when I filed
litigation against the store, the judge wanted to know what the "SUD" stood for. I told
him and he found the case in my favor, a $50,000 settlement. The courts understand perfectly
well that security in stores tend to be heavy handed, and they usually side with the victim (in
this case, you). Case in point: Montgomery Ward. Weren't they put out of business because
of their harsh security system and the subsequent lawsuits that followed?If this incident really bothers you to the point where you cannot function within a reasonable
parameter of "normality," then have your therapist (or doctor) write a letter to the manager, with
a CC to the store's CEO, explaining the "damage" this whole affair has done to you, and how you've
been permanently set back in your life. I'm sure after reading how much trouble they caused in your
life from a simple misunderstanding, they'll dismiss the entire event, and destroy any paperwork that
was filled out.But above all: relax. It's not the end of the world. Even the famous Rex Reed was caught ripping off
CDs from Tower Records in NYC last week, no big deal.Greetings to CarolAnn.
kazoo
Posted by Phil on April 8, 2000, at 7:43:19
In reply to Re: Please read, everyone (plea for help)., posted by CarolAnn on April 7, 2000, at 15:59:03
CarolAnn, In one of my many dark periods od under-employment, I managed a drug store for a large chain.Being an e-friend, I know you didn't mean to do this.
I managed one store that had so many shoplifters, that I actually had 3 separate 'offenders' in my office AT ONE TIME! I knew all of the cops by name...this was a wild store.
In retail, if you work in an affluent neighborhood, your shoplifters are affluent. Bad neighborhood, maybe not so well off. In the downtown store mentioned above, shoplifters ranged from 10 y.o. kids to CEO's of a large engineering firm. His suit cost more than I took home a month and he took an item in the $2.00 range.
Usually the form signed is for civil restitution and you might receive a 'bill' for $200.00.
These guys sound like nazis so I wouldn't deal with them and I definately wouldn't make demands.
You might contact an attorneyor, if it were me, I would contact the district manager, if it's a chain operation. I would calmly explain to the DM, preferrably in person, what happened and why.
If you go up the chain of command, they usually will let it go.
It's very upsetting to be in this situation but don't let them try to tell you who and what you are.
I would tell the DM that I had dealt w/ the store a long time and explain that it was an absent-minded mistake. Don't dwell on the AD thing. Most store mgrs and some DM's don't know an AD from a flying saucer.
Being treated badly by these morons is something I would calmly explain to the DM. It really ain't a big deal, although I know it feels like it.
How they treated you was not right but, to play devil's advocate for a moment, shoplifting, employee theft, etc. drains billions of $$$'s from these folks bottom lines and that means their CEO won't get their unearned $2 million bonus.
This WILL PASS!!
I hope this makes sense. I just woke up.
Phil
Posted by Phil on April 8, 2000, at 9:10:13
In reply to Re: Please read, everyone (plea for help)., posted by Phil on April 8, 2000, at 7:43:19
A little follow-up on retail loss prevention mentality. MANY, IF NOT MOST, LP PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT MANY OF THEIR LONGTIME CUSTOMERS ARE LONGTIME CUSTOMERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THE STORE IS EASY TO RIP OFF.
I quit the company I was working for because: (A) the job sucked and (2) the LP dept was run by some of the worst bottom-dwellers you can imagine. It wasn't just shoplifting policies. Their biggest dreams were nailing employees. The higher up, the better. i.e. Coming into your store after closing to install little-bitty cameras that were looking right at your office.
In one meeting, we were shown a film of an 18 y.o. clerk, about to leave for college on a football scholarship, stealing about 300.00 a day out of his register. As soon as a customer left, he would pull out the money and add it up.
I thought the LP guy was gonna wet his pants. This was his shining moment. I don't think the young man made it to college.
Phil
Posted by Noa on April 8, 2000, at 13:17:58
In reply to Re: jaded retailers, posted by Phil on April 8, 2000, at 9:10:13
I agree about not throwing the depression and medication thing in there. In order to be considered discrimination, you would have to establish that they KNEW you were depressed before they stopped you. And, I agree that you don't want to open the gates for all kinds of scrutiny into your personal health, etc. Keep it simple. It was an absentminded mistake, that lots of people could make. They were clearly overzealous and intimidating. Don't get into a shouting match. If you don't get a sympathetic ear from the store manager, take it up to the district manager, etc. And yes, consult an attorney.
Posted by boB on April 8, 2000, at 21:15:24
In reply to Re: jaded retailers, posted by Phil on April 8, 2000, at 9:10:13
CarolAnn,
Perhaps I can help you find some more perspective on this situation. I am a reporter. I was once asked to write a nice story about a new business, a Mexican restaurant. I learned, from the restaurant’s hired publicity manager, that part of the reason the restaurant was so slow to open was that the help had been deported before contractors finished all of the remodeling. Not being a strong proponent of nationalism and national borders and being an advocate of people’s right to work where they choose, I asked the restaurant manager about the situation. I was hoping my inquiry might help change things, as it often has. We were standing in the kitchen and the manager was cutting onions. With a long sharp knife. A long sharp knife that he pointed in my face to emphasize that I did not need to inquire about that part of the story.
As a journalist, I put myself in these kind of situations, some could suggest. True. My point now is that you put yourself in the situation with the store manager. You may feel that medications or medical conditions put you there, and they certainly might have contributed. But in defining and reacting to a situation, it is best to consider your own acts as well as the acts done toward you. My editor replied to my report of the restaurant incident by saying I could avoid the situation by not asking those kinds of questions. True. But i will continue to ask those kind of questions when I find a cause to do so.
Well, remember I am one of the first people to suggest that you stand up to the store employees. I have stood up to lots of people, time and time again. I could no doubt find plenty of clinicians who would label my willingness to stand my ground and my tactics as "acting out" or as some sort of rage, which should be treated with meds. My brother, going through a divorce, finds himself confronted by his ex-wife’s account of how he had words with a chiropractor many, many years ago. It was a consumer complaint, not a sign of anti-social behavior. Some of the times I have stood my ground could be called anti-social. The behavior of the store employees toward you could be called anti-social. Either side could, if telling the story to a sympathetic audience, portray themselves as right and the other as wrong.
My advice is to prepare yourself by thinking in advance what sort of verbal strategies will be effective when you are in a situation where you want to defend yourself. Then, when emotion starts to do its work you will be prepared. And emotion will take over, in all of our lives - our emotional self is wired a lot closer to the parts of our brain that act than are the parts of our brain that plan our actions on the fly. The strength of our emotional brain over our rational brain is fundamental to the argument for psychopharmacology. Our emotional brains were trained by genetic predisposition and by childhood experience. But continued training of our rational brain is our best shot at getting a leg up on our emotions, short of manipulating our brains with meds. There is a great book called "The gentle art of verbal self defense," that offers rational strategies for verbal confrontation. Such planning helps us avoid letting emotions formulate plans on the fly during moments of conflict and stress.
The depression thing, I don't encourage you to use that as a fighting tool. To defend yourself against stigma is one thing. That is what I am doing here, for a whole class of people, saying it is Okay for us to act out. But I am saying that those of us who choose to act out need to train our actions so when driven by emotional drives, we are prepared and don't loose control. Those of us who may be genetically programed toward various mental behaviours can, if we train ourselves well, contribute to the improvement of the human condition as a whole.
The Americans With Disabilities Act made some great progress for people with a variety of physical conditions. But think about people who are a lot worse off than yourself - who are blind, deaf, non-ambulatory, etc. This doesn't demean your condition, but your condition pales compares to that of many. Having been diagnosed as having such a mental condition does not excuse a person to do as they wish. And if we are to share battle camp with others disabled by medical condition, we need to calculate our skirmishes so as not to divest the hard won political accomplishments of our worthy allies.
Diagnosis can become a crutch for avoiding responsibility. I am not saying you are doing that, we are using your situation in a group discussion to help us all better control our individual and collective behavior.
I could have easily been diagnosed as bipolar, depressive, ADD and as having a wide range of personality disorders if I visited the right clinician and related, honestly, the reality of my feelings and my behavior. My ability to handle threats on the job, to tread close to hard-driven law enforcement personnel in their most difficult moments, to sit through domestic battery and murder trials, is not because of an absence the same symptoms for which you have been diagnosed. I promise you, I share your symptoms. My mental well-being is the result of having developed mental strategies for accepting the range of feelings I encounter. My serotonin levels are as likely to be low as yours. I use a sympathamementic aminergic agent (double-double shots of espresso) every day to focus my lagging attention on a deadline.
Friends, I have been in some tough situations .... crowds nearly out of control, personal threats by out of control individuals in the workplace, etc. Before I was a journalist, I was persistently confrontational with retail institutions, and with law enforcement agencies. I do not consider my behavior symptomatic of disease, I consider it appropriate response in a troubled society. If there is anything that separated me from a user of prescribed psychotropics is that I was fortunate to learn effective verbal coping strategies.
I make less than the average factory worker. I did not complete high school. I do not attribute my survival to my mental grit or strong mental health, I attribute it to the strategies I have learned. I did not learn these strategies watching Jerry Springer or Slam Bang NWO ProWrestling.I am not free to say whether I used illegal medications to level my mood while i learned these strategies. All I can say is I like the strategies, and I like having a reliable comfort level with my wide-ranging and often dark moods and I refuse to let anyone call my dark mood sick or pathological.
I am not here to question anyone’s right to medicate themselves. I am impressed with the level of intelligent understanding of medications I see on this site. But I am enough of a wordsmith to recognize that a diagnosis drawn on DSM-IV nomenclature, and the ability to change that condition with chemicals is not the equivalent of a person honestly understanding their neurochemical condition and how that condition fits into the large pattern of human experience.
If you think you will find some catharsis by fighting back with this store manager, and I think you will, I say do it. But do it with understanding of your position and of his, and of your mutual limitations as people. Good-cop / bad-cop strategy works well, and one person can do it alone by forcing an opponent to steer the actor toward a compassionate good-cop persona. I go into these skermishes knowing that my huge effort might only change things, in the larger picture, by a minuscule amount, and that after the conflict subsides, I will likely feel empty and depressed because of the changing levels of neurochemical I produced by facing a conflict.
Take it from an old guerilla psychological warrior. Hit hard and back off. Don't be drawn into a front-on conflict unless you are assured of victory or the rewards of battle are worth your personal loss. Don't be thwarted by a little bit of pain and live to fight another day.
Posted by Cgeorge on April 8, 2000, at 23:31:34
In reply to We all get jaded sometimes, posted by boB on April 8, 2000, at 21:15:24
.I am not free to say whether I used illegal medications to level my mood while i learned these strategies. .
Why are you not free to say? How long did it take you to learn these strategies? Thanks for an interesting post.
Posted by boB on April 8, 2000, at 23:46:45
In reply to Re: We all get jaded sometimes-boB, posted by Cgeorge on April 8, 2000, at 23:31:34
My freedom is curtailed by the possibility of criminal prosecution. I am free to say what I want, but a large data surveilance system know as Echelon, located in New Zealand, and more common techniques of identifying internet users, such as logging ISP numbers, coupled with the ability of agents to identify a writing style and use that information to get surveilance warrants would make it unwise to make specific claims. To deny use of illegal drugs, even though it might be a sincere denial, would do a disservice to people who seek to change laws. So my effort is to tread a fine line of political speech.
My verbal strategies likely developed over a period of many years, dating back to childhood experiences, but I think most of us can learn strategies that will make meanings better cohere to our language. We can all learn a little more compassion, empathy and respect and we can all learn to be more precise in our speech and to control the emotional content of our speech.
Posted by Liz on April 9, 2000, at 8:58:08
In reply to Re: Please read, everyone (plea for help)., posted by CarolAnn on April 7, 2000, at 15:59:03
Hi CarolAnn. Did you visit the store yesterday? Please let us know how it went. Thinking of you, Liz
**************************************************
> Thanks again everyone for all the support.
>
> I've been thinking(how could I not?). First, I wonder if anyone here at psycho-babble has legal background. I could use some legal ammunition for the demand(yes, only one) I want to make from the store. All I want is for them to give me all the forms and the pictures they took, does anyone think that is unreasonable?
> Also, a question, given the fact that I am being treated for a medical condition(major depression), which (technically) caused the incident, does anyone think that, legally, there was discrimination involved? Are there legal ramifications to the fact that they were intimidating and coercing me to sign something that was A. self-incriminating and B. was actually a lie, since I absentmindedly took the water, but the form said, "intentionally".
> Well, this is really just a shot in the dark, but if anyone does have any answers, thanks and God Bless you! CarolAnn
Posted by CarolAnn on April 9, 2000, at 10:49:24
In reply to We all get jaded sometimes, posted by boB on April 8, 2000, at 21:15:24
Update First: My husband(Doug) and I decided that since Saturday was the Manager's first day back at work, he would be very busy and we did not want to risk not having his full attention. So, since we needed some stuff, Doug went to the store to shop and asked the manager if we could have an appt. to speak to him at his convenience. This will be Tuesday morning, I'll let you know how it goes.
boB, I really appreciate all the time you took to tell your experience with this sort of thing! I had already decided that I would not approach this with a confrontational attitude, but would explain that I was there to give my side of the incident, and to complain about my treatment. My husband will be with me and since he is the most diplomatic person I've ever known, I know he will keep things smooth and low key. Also, I want to express to the manager that aside from the complaint about the intimidation, ect. both my husband and I feel that the manager should know that this security guy did this, because it was borderline harassment, discrimination, and probably a couple other civil rights violations. And the next time it happened, the guy might actually go over the border into law suit territory. Also, the first thing I will do, is make it clear that I am not disputing *what* happened, or that the security guy *saw* something that looked like intentional theft. My complaint is that I was terrorized, intimated, and being coerced into signing something untrue, for almost an hour.
Anyway, thanks again for all your comments, and I'll take this opportunity to say that I always find your posts very interesting. CarolAnn
Posted by Phil on April 9, 2000, at 12:00:58
In reply to Re: Update - and note to boB, posted by CarolAnn on April 9, 2000, at 10:49:24
CarolAnn,
Good job. My guess is this episode will disappear quickly. I've got a strong feeling this manager has heard this before about his security...just a hunch. Can't wait to hear. Good luck,
Phil
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