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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 7:37:08
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by AprilA on February 27, 2000, at 7:17:29
April, I am sorry you had such a hard night. I was worried, too, but because of yours and Janice's posts, I was able to sleep.
I had already gone to bed before Vesper posted, but was having some "restless legs" (courtesy of Effexor plus some Coke I had at dinnertime), so I got up and signed on again, to find V's post, which had posted about 15 to 20 minutes earlier, I think.
I think it was lucky Janice was around. Otherwise, I don't know what I would have done. I thought about calling UCLA, but had no idea what info I could give them, as I don't know his real name either.
I tried emailing him, but for some reason, my email wasn't going through.
As for the feelings this engendered--anger, helplessness. I know you saw only the "sweet" feelings, but last night's post did make me angry on top of scared. When V did not check into the hospital after Janice helped, I was a bit irritated, but know he was distracted by his friend. I think of it this way: the frustration I feel must be just a shadow of what he feels about himself.
Still, it is reasonable to be conscious of what each of us can tolerate. For example, when Janice offered the help she did, I hope she did it with the awareness that he might not make use of it as she would like. I don't think V is trying to be manipulative, but perhaps the back and forth and up and down, and especially the dump and run, can feel that way, as you said last night. The question is, how can we be compassionate and still protect ourselves from feeling "abused" as you put it?
And, I think your questions for the board are good ones. Can we develop a way to deal with this kind of thing? I don't know. But it is definitely worth exploring more. I hope Dr. Bob will be part of this discussion.
Posted by Phil on February 27, 2000, at 10:02:42
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 8:32:11
Janice, You're to be commended for what you did on Vesper's behalf.
I am deeply touched and moved at your compassion in action.
Let's all hope for the best for Vesper.Phil
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 10:11:25
In reply to Janice, above and beyond, posted by Phil on February 27, 2000, at 10:02:42
Phil, I agree.
Posted by Cam W. on February 27, 2000, at 10:29:40
In reply to Re: Janice, above and beyond, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 10:11:25
To all - WOW! That was incredible!
Best wishes Vesper! - Cam W.
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 10:52:38
In reply to Re: Janice, above and beyond, posted by Cam W. on February 27, 2000, at 10:29:40
Any news if the ambulance made it and he made it to the ER ok?
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 10:53:49
In reply to Re: Janice, above and beyond, posted by Cam W. on February 27, 2000, at 10:29:40
Hope you are feeling calmer. Keep in touch.
Posted by AprilA on February 27, 2000, at 11:07:46
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 8:32:11
> I don't know what happened to my post.
>
>
> >
.
>
> > What we feel probably just a shadow of what he feels. Q-how can we be compassionate and still take care of ourselves?
>
>
I don't agree with you at all. I don't think think acting on impulse is somehow an indicator of deeper feelings that we only feel a shadow of.
For me trying to get help for someone who announces he's trying to kill himself isn't really a choice. He takes the choice away when he announces it on a public forum.
I suspect this gesture relieved a certain amount of pain and anxiety and that what he feels now is probably only a shadow of what people who struggle with the same feelings and resist are feeling.
I don't really have anything further to add to this discussion. Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, AprilA has left the babble.
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 11:45:47
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by AprilA on February 27, 2000, at 11:07:46
April, I hadn't thought of it that way. I gotta run now, but will be back later and do want to understand more of your perspective. Please.
I hope your leaving is temporary.
Posted by Janice on February 27, 2000, at 15:58:54
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 11:45:47
Hi everyone,
As far as I know (I am assuming this because I believe I would have heard if things were otherwise), Vesper is alive and well - well maybe not well. I'm guessing he is pleased to find himself alive and in the hospital. I called the hospital - I am guessing like AprilA he is at the UCLA hospital. Anyway, I had no luck, as the phone operators are not too cooperative, and once they put you onto that machine, there is no hope to talk to another person. Last night, before I called his psychiatrist, I tried to get his number through these operators, and I quickly found out how useless they were - or at least seemed to be. Despite their reputation, the LAPD were much more helpful; and told me to call them back if I couldn't get his psychiatrist.If anyone knows the number to this hospital, I would love to have it. From the operators, I just kept getting numbers that had recordings and such. UGgggg! If not I will call his therapist tomorrow.
Thank you all for the lovely compliments! Whenever I read his postings, I felt like I already knew him from a long time ago, and felt like he was typing especially for me - although I know he wasn't. I guess I'm trying to say I felt/feel a strong connection to him for some reason.
AprilA - I don't know if you're still following this posting. I'm sorry this was so hard on you. Suicidal people, as far as I know, are not trying to be manipulative or get attention - These are just myths, kind of like we should be able to use our 'will power' to get out of our depression.
Trust me, Vesper was not able to think of anything but the incredible PAIN he was in, period. And everything he said were simply cries for help. Take especially good care of yourself AprilA. I'm sure we would all like for you to stay in touch.
I'll keep you updated on Vespers situation, as much as I am able to be. Janice
Posted by Vesper on February 27, 2000, at 21:52:43
In reply to Vesper, posted by Janice on February 27, 2000, at 15:58:54
I'm here and alive, and sorry to have caused you all such inconvenience. Tell me what you want me to do and I will do it. I think this forum would be better off without me, even if I survive.
Thank you and please don't thing I am ungrateful. I'm very confused and sick and I suppose what they call "high maintenence" at least at this time.
I don't really know what the word "manipulative" means, people are responsible for their own emotions and reactions to things. I just don't know what I need or want in terms of help, and I do selfish, stupid things out of frustration. I am really sorry.-V.
Posted by Cam W. on February 27, 2000, at 21:58:40
In reply to Re: Vesper, posted by Vesper on February 27, 2000, at 21:52:43
Vesper - Don't be a stranger, but do get some help. Sometimes our illnesses are more than we can deal with by ourselves, and we sometimes need help to see through the fog. Take care - Cam W.
Posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 22:11:17
In reply to Re: Vesper, posted by Vesper on February 27, 2000, at 21:52:43
I believe you sincerely are sorry.
I also agree you are confused. Sometimes emotions and impulse seem to come over you and take over. That is why you need to place yourself in the care of others who will keep you safe, while you develop a plan with them for treatment that will allow you to keep yourself safe, and start getting some control back, and start working toward a life of hope. But first you have to be safe.
I want you to admit yourself to the hospital.
Posted by Cass on February 27, 2000, at 22:47:00
In reply to Re: Vesper, posted by Vesper on February 27, 2000, at 21:52:43
I came into this drama a little late after missing a day here. After reading many of the posts, however, I certainly do not feel manipulated. You have no reason to apologize for your vulnerability. We would all be apologizing if that were the case. I think there is a strong connection between you and the others members here. I wish you would stay. Best wishes.
Posted by Cindy W on February 28, 2000, at 9:24:19
In reply to Re: Vesper, posted by Cass on February 27, 2000, at 22:47:00
> I came into this drama a little late after missing a day here. After reading many of the posts, however, I certainly do not feel manipulated. You have no reason to apologize for your vulnerability. We would all be apologizing if that were the case. I think there is a strong connection between you and the others members here. I wish you would stay. Best wishes.
Vesper, I was out of town this weekend and missed the drama! But I agree with Cam and hope you get some help soon. Keep us posted. Asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness, and things can only get better with help.--Cindy W
Posted by AprilA on February 28, 2000, at 15:54:25
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by AprilA on February 27, 2000, at 0:09:13
> > I don't know if he has done this before, but earlier he was on the verge and Janice was terrific, getting in contact with him and his therapist to facilitate his going to the hospital on a voluntary admission. But then he didn't go, when his friend came into town.
> >
> > I hope he'll be ok, hope that the ambulance got there fast. He needs to be in the hospital.
> >
> > I don't know what else we can do.
>
frankly I feel manipulated and abused. But Vesper if you get a chance to read this-You're an ace at it. I'm shaking so much I can hardly type. I can't stop crying. Do you think you are the only one who ever lost anyone to suicide?? Would it have been so hard to just go to the hospital yourself? I know you're in pain but why do everything you can to spread it around??
I apologize for saying you were an ace at it and asking you why you feel the need to spread pain around. These remarks were neither kind nor useful.
I also think you should recognize that no matter how manipulated I felt I gave you the benefit of the doubt and had just spent over an hour talking to people at UCLA trying to track you down and help you. This was my decision and I would do the same for any other person who posted a note identical to yours. This was extremely difficult for me and I was under a great deal of stress when I wrote that message.
Everything I wrote was in direct response to the posting in which you stated you had taken an O
D with alcohol. It is not a comment nor reflection on any prior posting or postings you may have written.
I have never suggested you leave the board or anything else. I think you should make your own decision. I certainly would not presume to give you advice, but I do sincerely hope you will find a way to have a happier life. Best Wishes A.
Posted by AprilA on February 28, 2000, at 16:09:49
In reply to Re: April, how are you doing now?, posted by Noa on February 27, 2000, at 10:53:49
> Hope you are feeling calmer. Keep in touch.
Thanks for asking ,it was extremely difficult.
You mentioned in another post that it was traumatic for me and it was. It's almost like PTSD or something,fortunately it's not a situation that comes up often! I was really hurt that no one but you was able to realize how difficult it was for me and that I did indeed function well under probably one of the most stressful situations I could find myself in. I saw my therapist today and feel better about it all. I not really sure how often I'll be back anymore but I did want to thank you for asking about me and for all the other things you do around here. Thanks again . I hope things go well for you.
Posted by Noa on February 28, 2000, at 18:30:19
In reply to Re: April, how are you doing now?, posted by AprilA on February 28, 2000, at 16:09:49
April, thanks for coming back. I felt badly for how badly you were feeling. You really did a lot in response to Vesper's post. That was courageous. Thank you.
I also was sad to see you leave so precipitously. I hope you will stay, but I respect your decision if it is too intense here. I know it has been more intense here lately in general, and I have been feeling really unsettled, too.
I hope by saying this, and my other post about the intensity, doesn't hurt anyone who has presented intense stuff. I do not fault them for that at all, and feel it is a good place to come for support.
I am just being honest about the fact that somehow the intensity is stirring up a lot of feelings for me.
I am going to do another post to this effect, so it will be in the title and therefore more noticeable, but I really wish Dr. Bob would jump in and interact with us about all this stuff. He has been eerily absent of late, and I think this stuff has been a major challenge to this board.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 29, 2000, at 5:06:44
In reply to Re: He's OK, posted by AprilA on February 27, 2000, at 0:09:13
> I don't think these BB's are safe for people who already hurt.
This is a really good point. I think there are bound to be people here who will at least occasionally act in ways that evoke the past traumas of others. This might be difficult for those others. In theory, they might also gain something from the experience, but, for them, the risks might outweigh the potential benefits.
I guess there are two other issues:
1. How people here might deal with this kind of thing.
I think it helps one to help others, but efforts to help unfortunately don't always succeed. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to help -- that's the whole idea here! -- just that one shouldn't always expect, let alone feel responsible for, a good outcome.
2. What if any general "policy" there might be.
I don't mean to be heartless, but a forum like this *may* in general be better off without people who act in certain ways.
I think we generally accept this when people are hostile. But what if they're "just" unrelentingly depressed and suicidal (and possibly not doing what they "should" about it, either)? Both may be in pain. But both may also, because of the reactions they elicit, make it harder for the forum to serve its purpose. They should be supported, too, but this might not be the place.
Well, let me know what you think...
Bob
Posted by vesper on February 29, 2000, at 6:31:37
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by Dr. Bob on February 29, 2000, at 5:06:44
> > I don't think these BB's are safe for people who already hurt.
>
> This is a really good point. I think there are bound to be people here who will at least occasionally act in ways that evoke the past traumas of others. This might be difficult for those others. In theory, they might also gain something from the experience, but, for them, the risks might outweigh the potential benefits.
>
> I guess there are two other issues:
>
> 1. How people here might deal with this kind of thing.
>
> I think it helps one to help others, but efforts to help unfortunately don't always succeed. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to help -- that's the whole idea here! -- just that one shouldn't always expect, let alone feel responsible for, a good outcome.
>
> 2. What if any general "policy" there might be.
>
> I don't mean to be heartless, but a forum like this *may* in general be better off without people who act in certain ways.
>
> I think we generally accept this when people are hostile. But what if they're "just" unrelentingly depressed and suicidal (and possibly not doing what they "should" about it, either)? Both may be in pain. But both may also, because of the reactions they elicit, make it harder for the forum to serve its purpose. They should be supported, too, but this might not be the place.
>
> Well, let me know what you think...
>
> Bob
For one thing, "Goodbye or something, I think.." is hardly as committal a title as "goodbye cruel world," and someone who thinks she/he may be triggered by such a thing should probably not read it. That said, I know I shouldn't have posted it. If I can't be on this bbs, do you have any suggestions for someone who has lowered her/his inhibitions in terms of doing such a thing? I never would have posted something like that before I was good and intoxicated, by which time of course I had no judgement as to what is appropriate.
Say the word, and you shall hear from me no more.
I appreciate and respect greatly the fact that you have created this forum and thank you for its benefits to me, through the wonderful people here.
Yours,
Vesper E.
Posted by Noa on February 29, 2000, at 7:24:41
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by vesper on February 29, 2000, at 6:31:37
Vesper, the way you refer to your post now sounds like you are describing the impulse problem as being about the post, and not about having ingested an overdose of klonopin and zyprexa, with alcohol. Am I missing the boat here, or did you not make a serious suicide attempt?
Posted by Noa on February 29, 2000, at 7:29:50
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by Dr. Bob on February 29, 2000, at 5:06:44
Dr. Bob,
Is it possible to somehow add to your policies a statement that says something to the effect that by contributing to this board people are agreeing to keep themselves safe and seek immediate "bricks and mortar/flesh and blood" care if they are at risk of acting on unsafe urges? I know this kind of agreement can't be literally binding, but neither can a typical safety contract between therapist and patient.
Posted by Noa on February 29, 2000, at 7:41:33
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by Noa on February 29, 2000, at 7:29:50
BTW, Dr. Bob, has this sort of thing happened here before?
Posted by Cindy W on February 29, 2000, at 9:06:26
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by Noa on February 29, 2000, at 7:41:33
A safety "contract" would be considerate to all members, including the person making the contract. I don't think we should exclude people making a "cry for help," and I agree with Dr. Bob that we must realize that at times there are people we can't help (but we can still try).--Cindy W
Posted by AprilA on February 29, 2000, at 17:25:18
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by Dr. Bob on February 29, 2000, at 5:06:44
> > I don't think these BB's are safe for people who already hurt.
>
>
> I guess there are two other issues:
>
> 1. How people here might deal with this kind of thing.
>
> I think it helps one to help others, but efforts to help unfortunately don't always succeed. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't try to help -- that's the whole idea here! -- just that one shouldn't always expect, let alone feel responsible for, a good outcome.
>
If you had read that post before anybody else would you have tried to call UCLA?Personally my plan for the future if someone I think I can help find says they have taken an overdose: I plan to call my long-suffering Psych. and give him the information and let him decide what to do. If it happens much I'll have to ask you to block me from the site because I like it and don't have enough willpower to stay away.
I wouldn't have reacted so strongly except I thought something could be done.
I see an enormous difference between talking about being suicidal and stating you've all ready taken action.
> 2. What if any general "policy" there might be.
>
> I don't mean to be heartless, but a forum like this *may* in general be better off without people who act in certain ways.
>
> I think we generally accept this when people are hostile. But what if they're "just" unrelentingly depressed and suicidal (and possibly not doing what they "should" about it, either)? Both may be in pain. But both may also, because of the reactions they elicit, make it harder for the forum to serve its purpose. They should be supported, too, but this might not be the place.
>
> That's a really difficult question. I think when a person's needs go beyond support and information and require intervention is this really the safest place for them? But I have no idea how you would decide. At the least I would hope no one would be permanently "banned".
Still I would want the spirit of this place to be respected-I don't know how to answer that. AprilA
Posted by saint james on February 29, 2000, at 19:45:14
In reply to Re: Goodbye Cruel World notes, posted by Dr. Bob on February 29, 2000, at 5:06:44
I have to admit that age has jaded me when the subject of internet suicide attempts comes up. Having been thru real life ones I really think going down this road on the internet
is not a good idea. It is way beyond the scope of the list. Like Dr Bob says "In a crisis get help the old fashioned way " Please do. There is nothing wrong with contacting whoever offlist and I think in some cases this would be better than continuing threads of this nature.james
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