![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by dj on February 22, 2000, at 17:29:31
I stumbled across the following article by Erica Goode in the Globe and Mail (one of Canada's national newspapers) today which was excerpted from an NY Times article by Erica Goode. In trying to narrow down the depression references and find this specific article I put a search in for "Erica Goode" and depression which yieled 19 articles, all which look to be very good.
Here's a brief excerpt from the article I was searching for on-line:
February 1, 2000
Viewing Depression as Tool for Survival
By ERICA GOODE
he case, Dr. Randolph M. Nesse said, does not fit tidily with the view that depression is only a matter of disordered brain chemicals:A woman sought help from a psychiatric clinic because she was desperately depressed. She had dedicated five years to becoming a professional musician, despite her teachers' admonitions that she lacked the talent to succeed. She persisted, the woman said, because it was her mother's dream for her.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fitting life's impossible dreams into the scheme of evolution.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The psychiatrists at the clinic treated her with a variety of antidepressant medications and with psychotherapy. Nothing helped. But when, one day, the woman reached a decision, giving up music in favor of a career more suited to her abilities, her depression lifted.
Dr. Nesse, director of the Evolution and Human Adaptation program at the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, collects many such cases (the details are altered to protect patients' identities) because he believes they offer clues to a deeper understanding of depression.
In a recent article in the journal Archives of General Psychiatry, Dr. Nesse argued that while some forms of depression were clearly a result of genetic vulnerability and brain abnormality, others might have their roots in evolutionary history.
Darwinian theory holds that evolution selects for fitness: organisms with traits that promote survival or reproduction pass on their genes; organisms without such traits die off.
Depression may have developed, Dr. Nesse suggested, as a useful response to situations in which a desired goal is unattainable, or, as he has put it, "when one of life's path peters out into the woods."
Locked in pursuit of the impossible, it makes sense for an animal to hunker down, take stock and figure out what to do next, Dr. Nesse said. In some cases, depression may help a person disengage from what has proved a hopeless effort; in other cases, it may protect the person from jumping ship too rashly, perhaps landing in even less hospitable seas.
"If I had to put my position in a nutshell," he said, "I'd say that mood exists to regulate investment strategies, so that we spend more time on things that work, and less time on things that don't."
In some respects, Dr. Nesse's conception echoes that of the psychoanalyst Dr. Emmy Gut. In a 1989 book "Productive and Unproductive Depression" (Basic Books), Dr. Gut described:..."
For more on this or other articles of Ms. Goodes check out: http://www.nytimes.com
Time to shut this system down for the rest of the day and concentrate on my immediate priorities, like re-organizing my paper piles and life, etc...
Posted by CarolAnn on February 23, 2000, at 9:27:23
In reply to NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by dj on February 22, 2000, at 17:29:31
dj, I found your post very interesting. Depression causes are not a black and white issue. There's a lot of grey, in that, some depressions are genetic, some are reactive, and some are both. It makes a lot of sense that someone spending so much time trying to live up to someone else's expectations, would eventually just shut down completely. Articles like this are the reason that I believe that people suffering depression should be open to the idea of talk therapy as well as medication. It's unfortunate that a lot of people are just looking for the "magic" pill, when therapy or a combination might be more helpful.
dj, thanx for yet another, great post!CarolAnn
Posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by CarolAnn on February 23, 2000, at 9:27:23
> ... It's unfortunate that a lot of people are just looking for the "magic" pill, when therapy or a combination might be more helpful.
> dj, thanx for yet another, great post!CarolAnnThank you, CA, for both reading and commenting. I'm weaning myself off psycho-babble because so many folks here seem focused on the 'magic pill' approach and I'm frankly very tired of reading about pharmaceutical panaceas, which in my view and based on my experience are a crutch that many never seem to let go of, because they are not willing to tackle the core issues and stay focused and obssessing on the symptoms and NOT the cause.
Though my energy and concentration is still not consistently where I would like it to be (though it is generally), since I've used multiple conventional and non-conventional but scientifically sound approachs to dealing with my issues (as documented throughout Psycho-babble)I feel much, much better. And replacing the ADs with sound nutrition, a limited mix of supplements (Siberian ginseng, ginkgo biloba, lecithin, multi-vitmins) from trusted sources (Jamieson) as well as applying the principles J&B (see my posting to Janice, above) and others have drawn from the best of eastern and western medicine and therapies have played a large role in that rebalancing (as I most certainly felt out of balance when depressed and even more so, in different ways while on ADs).
I'll leave you with some book references which I've found enlightening, from my shelves, for any who are interested in widening their perspective and perhaps putting a little poetry.literature and learning rather than pharmacy into their lives:
Dean Ornsteins - Love & Survival;
Timothy Miller - How to Want What You Have
Alan Watts - Psychotherapy East & West
Thomas Merton - No Man is an Island
David H. Rosen - Transforming Depression: Healing the Soul through Creativity)
Sidney Rosen - My Voice Will Go With You: The Teaching Tales of Milton E. Erickson
James W. Pennebaker - Opening Up: The Healing Power of Confiding in Others
Robert Ornstein - Healty Pleasures
Natalie Goldberg - Long Quiet Highway: Waking Up in America & her Writing Down the Bones, & Wild Mind
Diane Ackerman - A Slender Thread: Rediscovering Hope at the Heart of Crisis
Jean Vanier - Becoming Human
Jo Coudert - Advice From A Failure
Anthony Storr - Churchill's Black Dog, Kafka's Mice
Larry Dossey - Healing Words
Cherry Hartman - Be Good-to-Yourself Therapy
Jon Kabat-Zinn - Full Catastrophe Living
Maxwell Taylor Kennedy - Make Gentle the Life of this World: The Vision of Robert F. Kennedy
Berke Breathed - 'Toons for our Times - Bloom County, & Penguin Dreams & Stranger Things
Thorwald Dethlefsen - The Healing Power of Illness
Phil Jackson - Sacred Hoops: Spiritual Lessons of a Hardwood Warrior
John Steinback - All and in particular, To A God Unknown
Tim Ward - The Great Dragon's Fleas
Lawerence Shainberg - Ambivalent Zen
Mike George - Learn to Relax
Robert Bolton - People Skills
John Welwood - Journey of the Heart
Mary Crow Dog - Lakota Women
Dee Brown - Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee
Peter Matthiesen - At Play in the Fields of the Lord, & The Snow Leopard
Charles Handy - The Hungry Spirit
Alan Briskin - The Stirring of Soul in the Workplace
Primo Levi - The Drowned and the Saved
Michael Ignatitieff - The Needs of Strangers
Marc Ian Barash - The Healing Path
Thich Nhat Hanh - Living Buddha, Living Christ
Frances Vaughan - A Gift of Peace
Richard D. Carson - Taming Your Gremlin: A Guide to Enjoying Yourself
Christopher Leach - Letter to a Younger Son
The Dalai Lama - A Flash of Lightening in the Dark of Night
JanWillem Van De Wettering - The Empty Mirror
Merle Shain - Some Men Are More Perfect Than Others
Leston Havens - A Safe Place
Robert Fritz - The Path of Least Resistance
Patti Smith - Early Work
Leonard Cohen - Flowers for Hitler (and his music too)
Richard D. Mahoney - Sons and Brothers : The Days of Jack and Bobby Kennedy
Antoince De Saint-Exupery - The Little Prince
Richard Bach - Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Carl A. Hammerschlag - Healing Ceremonies, and The Theft of the Spirit : A Journey to Spiritual Healing
Alfred Lord Tennyson - UlyssesThe following quote is from Hammeschag's The Theft of the Spirit which I highly recommed as I do ALL of the fore-going:
"It doesn't matter how long your spirit lies dormant and unsused. One day you hear a song, look at an object, or see a vision, and you feel its prescence. It can't be bought, traded, or annihilated, because its power comes from your story. No one can steal your spirit; you have to give it away. you can take it back. Find yours."That's the only point of life and our struggles isn't it,connecting with YOUR spirit whether you believe in God, Buddha, Ganhdi, Kennedy, money, drugs or not? Oh and of course I can't forget Neil Postman who is currently in Vancouver speaking to the topic of spirit vs. technology(which pills are but an example of). Here's a bit of background on him and his works:
"Author of seventeen published books including The End of Education, Technopoly, Amusing Ourselves to Death, Conscientious Objections, The Disappearance of Childhood, and Teaching as a Subversive Activity (with Charles Weingartner). His articles, of which over 200 have been published, have appeared in The New York Times Magazine, The Atlantic Monthly, Harper's, Time Magazine, The Saturday Review, The Harvard Education Review, The Washington Post, The L.A. Times, Stern, and Le Monde. He is on the Editorial Board of The Nation magazine. An internationally recognized scholar and critic, he has lectured all over the world, and in 1985, gave the keynote address at the Frankfurt Book Fair. In 1986 he was given the George Orwell Award for clarity in Language by the National Council of Teachers of English. For ten years, he was the editor of Et Cetera, the Journal of General Semantics. He is the holder of the Christian Lindback Award for excellence in teaching. In 1988, he was given the Distinguished Teacher Award--one of many awards received in his 38 years of teaching at New York University. This year, Knopf published his most recent work, Building a Bridge to the 18th Century. Research interests include media and learning."
And to end I will leave you with an abridged version of Ulysses:
"...I cannot rest from travel; I will drink
Life to the lees. All times I have enjoy'd
Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea. I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known,-- cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honor'd of them all,--
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.
I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Gleams that untravell'd world whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish'd, not to shine in use!
As tho' to breathe were life! Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains; but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.
...Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail;
There gloom the dark, broad seas. My mariners,
Souls that have toil'd, and wrought, and thought with me,--
That ever with a frolic welcome took
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
Free hearts, free foreheads,-- you and I are old;
Old age hath yet his honor and his toil.
Death closes all; but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks;
The long day wanes; the slow moon climbs; the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends.
'T is not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "For full text: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/ulysses.html
Posted by CarolAnn on February 25, 2000, at 15:49:43
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
dj, I'm blown away by your list of books, I thought I had read a lot of "self-help" type stuff, but it's nothing compared to you.
Your post sounded so final, so I am going to see if I can find the thread where you gave your E-mail address, just in case you don't see this note.
I just have to say to you that if anyone deserves to find their way out of depression, it is you! Your dedication to helping yourself is extremely admirable. Did you always have so much self-discipline? Or have you found some way to acquire it? I must also say that, as attached as I am to my "crutch"(medication), I am absolutely certain that you are on the right track. I have often wished that I had more self-discipline, but never more so then I do right now, after reading of all the effort you are putting toward better mental health.
I would love to be able to actually "talk"(via E-mail), with you about all your ideas and progress. I wonder if you still have my address from the note I sent during your exile? If so, and if you are interested in any dialogue or discussion, please write. CarolAnn
Posted by Noa on February 25, 2000, at 15:56:30
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
Sorry to see you go, DJ, but I have to reply honestly about receiving your departing post. Let's begin with:
>they are not willing to tackle the core issues and stay focused and obssessing on the symptoms and NOT the cause.
DJ, I found the above to be presumptuous and insulting. How do you know this about us? This is a psychopharm bulletin board, afterall. It doesn't mean what we write here covers the entirety of our beings and what we work on in ourselves.
> since I've used multiple conventional and non-conventional.....I feel much, much better.That is good that you have found a system that helps you feel better and balanced.
> I'll leave you with some book references which I've found enlightening, from my shelves, for any who are interested in widening their perspective and perhaps putting a little poetry.literature and learning rather than pharmacy into their lives:To me, this sounds a bit grandiose and condescending, DJ.
> "Author of seventeen published books....................................................................................................interests include media and learning."
DJ, frankly, this sounds like we are all sitting at a testimonial, or perhaps you are his publicist?
> And to end I will leave you with an abridged version of Ulysses:Ok, over the top. You are coming across to me as if you feel yourself to be the great wise one on his death bed, and we, your wee bereft children, begging for pearls of your enlightened wisdom. Or perhaps the Prophet leaving his wretched, unenlightened flock in the wilderness as you ascend the holy mountain....
Your thinking comes across as grandiose and black and white. Having read your post, I feel irritated and insulted and thoroughly misunderstood.
I hate to bring up a sore subject, but remember Phillip Marx? Well, your writing is certainly more coherent, and the content focus is obviously very different, but the grandiose tone? Well.....
I guess I'll end by considering the possibility that you didn't mean to come across this way and when rereading your post you will be able to recognize how it did.
>
Posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 17:32:00
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by Noa on February 25, 2000, at 15:56:30
> I guess I'll end by considering the possibility that you didn't mean to come across this way and when rereading your post you will be able to recognize how it did.
> >
Thanks to both of you for your comments. If I came across as a bit grandiose and condescending I'll own that and I'll also stand behind ABSOLUTELY every one of my comments because I believe them from the core of my being and my own experience. I'm not standing on Mount Olympus looking down I'm sitting here reflecting upon what I've experienced and what has worked for and inpired me and it sure hasn't been pharmoceuticals, though some of the wrting on this board has been inspirationa.If I came across as condescending I didn't intend it to be that way and apologize if any of you, besides Noa, perceive it that way.
And sure I don't know each and everyone of you individually or your circumstances but I do know that I've been there and worked my way through a lot of personal crap with lots of blood, sweat, tears, humour, pathos and bathos and at the centre of it I always found me, when I let go of my crutches and excuses. I assume that anyone else can do the same, regardless of their circumstances because I have seen myself and others do it, time and again.
And I will have my moments and pitfalls again but I will use ever weapon in my well stocked arsenal to not go back into depression and to avoid ever using ADs again, if I can. And if I need them they will be there, temporarily, in hopefully a new and truly improved form.
If I sound like Neil Postman's publicist that's because I've cut and pasted the quote from publicity for the lecture, which perhaps wasn't obvious.
As for the list of books I've read them all, at least once and in some cases many times. I also used to sell books, to university profs, so I have a pretty broad exposure to and love of the written word. One that I forgot to include which details someone elses's path through the maze we call life, and its many pitfalls is Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maintainence by Robert Pirsig.
Here's a copy of my reply to Carol Ann's personal note to me:
"Thanks very much CarolAnn! I appreciate your thoughtfulness and compassion. However, I did not do it alone by any stretch of the imagination I have a large and generally supportive and loving family and some very loving and supportive friends all of who challenge me in appropriate ways at times, to be the best me I can be and that's all that it takes really. Simple, but not easy.The books I mentioned today and others I've mentioned pereviously were all of great solace and assistance to me, especially those which talk about folks like RFK, William Styron and other more low key folks. All that and the kindness of strangers, friends and family helped. And the work I did at the Haven (PD Seminars) which I mentioned in other recent posts, and will do more of, has been a great assist.
As the Irish toast goes, "May the most you wish for be the least that you receive."
I will be checking out PsychoBabble on occasion, and posting on occasion but less and less often as I want to life away from my computer more and more. Plus there's a wonderful blonde Chinese medecine intern whom I met through acupuncture whom I hope to be spending more time with when she returns from vacation. And I want to enjoy the outdoor beauties of Vancouver even more, as it is a magnificant place to be, always. And then work beckons too...but first I need to finish cleaning up my place, my psyche and get my own house even more in order.
Namaste!
DJ"
I don't claim to be a saint or hero, though I have been infuenced by both as well as their opposites, just a guy trying to find his way through a lot of confusion, at times. And for the record I am not one for pity parties, which sometimes seems to me to be the focus here, though more often it is leavened with great humour, insight and compassion.
One person, of many, whom I don't always agree with but admire greatly who has been a very, positive influence on me is a fellow named Brock Tully who until a month ago ran a bookstore called Greenhouse Books: Where People Grow.
He and his lovely wife Wilma have sold the store, but retained an interest, as they are about to do an 8-month Cycling for Kindness tour which may be coming to your city. Check out their web site and if they are in your city or nearby go check out thier public forums cuz they radiate love and good will and actively practice what they preach: (http://www.kindacts.net/cycle/
If they are not coming to a city near you, check out the web-site anyway as I believe there is info. there on Brock's small books called Reflections by Brock Tully. Here's a sample quote from Brock's reflections, which come with humourous drawings: "...i'll never find out what I can do...unless i do all i can to find out."
My apologies if anyone else takes offense at my comments. That was and is not my intent, though my tone might have been a bit grandiose. That's part of who I am and I recognize it and compensate for it, when and where necessary. At the Haven they are very good at helping me get in touch with my humility, compassion and humanity and that's all I wish for anyone else via whatever route you might chose.My intent is to provide a different take on things and I have. Take it as you will!
Posted by Noa on February 25, 2000, at 17:52:39
In reply to Re: All's well that ends...(longish), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 17:32:00
DJ, I still find it awfully egocentric of you to assume that just because YOU believe YOU used medication as a crutch, that the same is true for all others.
In touch with your humility? That is definitely not coming across.
Sorry to be so blunt, and as you know, I am not usually so confrontational, but I am offended and put off by your narcisism right now, and despite your literate posts, I am glad to see you go.
Posted by Phil on February 25, 2000, at 18:05:34
In reply to Re: All's well that ends...(longish), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 17:32:00
VOMIT
Posted by Elizabeth on February 25, 2000, at 18:23:28
In reply to Still Irritated, posted by Noa on February 25, 2000, at 17:52:39
> DJ, I still find it awfully egocentric of you to assume that just because YOU believe YOU used medication as a crutch, that the same is true for all others.
I think, Noa, that people who haven't experienced an "out-of-the-blue" mental illness (that wasn't related to a major trauma, loss, bad parenting, etc.) often have a hard time imagining that such a thing exists.
I do wonder who dj is talking about (other than dj!) -- where are the many people who use medication as a crutch, and what are the "issues" they need to "work through?" (And how did dj come to this knowledge?) I'm also not sure who CarolAnn believes is rejecting talk therapy -- with one notable exception, I don't know of anybody here who isn't in therapy (or seeking therapy). Also, of course, there's the fact that the article quoted was about self-discovery, not talk therapy!
As far as self-discovery goes, incidentally, I think poetry and literature are great...which is why I was surprised to see a list almost exclusively of self-help and "inspirational" books instead.
Posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 19:10:52
In reply to Re: Still Irritated, posted by Elizabeth on February 25, 2000, at 18:23:28
Be irritated as you will and consider me as narcisstic and grandiose as you wish. That's your problem, not mine.
> > DJ, I still find it awfully egocentric of you to assume that just because YOU believe YOU used medication as a crutch, that the same is true for all others.
>I' don't see a crutch as a bad thing. It has it's time and place, temporarily, to be let go of once healing has occurred. My comments were general comments about my experience and you can personalize them as you will, or not. Again, that's your problem, not mine. I'm not saying that any of this is easy or universally true, but I am saying it's pretty simplistic to think a pill is doing anything more than dealing with symptoms and not root causes.
In Buddhism they distinguish between pain and suffering. Those who are in pain, clutch their suffering tightly. I see a lot of that here. Is that good or bad? No, it just is. For me it's tiresome just like some of these knee-jerk responses based on your own narcisstic dogmas.
> As far as self-discovery goes, incidentally, I think poetry and literature are great...which is why I was surprised to see a list almost exclusively of self-help and "inspirational" >books instead.There are more inspirational than self-help books in this list, which you might find out if you took the time to read a few of them. And they are all very well written. And I have a few books of Shakespeare and the like about too, just didn't care to mention any of the many other books that adorn my shelves, just ones that I thought some folks in babbleland might want to check out, if they want to look elsewhere. So if some of you don't appreciate that, so be it, tante pise as the Quebecois say.
Posted by Noa on February 25, 2000, at 19:45:41
In reply to Re: Still Irritated, posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 19:10:52
>My comments were general comments about my experience and you can personalize them as you will, or not. .
Please reread what you wrote, and you will see that they were not framed as being about your experience, but were framed as judgments directed at people here. I would not have been angry if you had written, indeed, about your personal experiences. But you directed your judgments to us, the folks at Babble.
> For me it's tiresome just like some of these knee-jerk responses based on your own narcisstic dogmas.
What are my dogmas? How are they narcissistic? Can you explain what you mean?
As for knee-jerk response, my responses were honest responses, giving you feedback about how your comments came across to me, not knee-jerk at all, as I thought about them for hours first.
Posted by Phil on February 25, 2000, at 20:45:47
In reply to Re: Still Irritated, posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 19:10:52
Dj, DJ, instead of coming back to Babble to enlighten or educate or share, you come in with statements that are intentionally provocative. Your anger shows through like the sun but you just deny it all and set these boundaries like a 5 year old. 'Think of me what you will, that's your problem, not mine.' It's like you've got to have a confrontation to satisfy your day.
As for someone so enlightened and well read, you still don't seem to know anything about personal interaction. As far as any spiritual path you are following, you haven't reached step one.
If you want to change attitudes here, use your brain. If all you want is to intice people into your web, then I don't have any time for you.
We are all mere human beings doing the best we know how to do...including you. You're biting the hand that fed you. That is never right.Phil
Posted by Cindy W on February 25, 2000, at 21:55:32
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
>
dj, sorry to see you're so unhappy with the board. I agree that it takes more than just the "magic pill" to remedy depression. Having read many of the works you mention, however, and many others of equal merit, I have found that my major depression and OCD need more than philosophy, psychology, words of wisdom, Chicken Soup for the Soul, cognitive therapy, psychotherapy, and behavior therapy. Depression is often remediable (when really serious and vegetative) by changing one's brain chemistry, not by improving one's character. I wish just reading some great works would give me peace! As an English major, avid reader, and psychologist, I wish just learning more would help...but at times, when feeling like a character in Camus, Sartre, or Kafka, the only thing that has kept me from offing myself has been those "magic pills." --Cindy W
Posted by Janice on February 25, 2000, at 22:03:46
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
John 10:1 Verily, verily, dj sayeth unto babblelanders, we must entereth the kingdom of non-depression through the djmethod.
John 2:9 Only dj knoweth the way, has seeneth the light and could possibly even knoweth the lord. Whoever does not recognize this shall burneth in eternal depression (most likely with lots of anxiety) and willeth continually swallow... eeeekkkkk...chemicals!
I don't want to alienate you with my words, but I think you may have something else going on other than depression. Something to do with impulse control or aggression. I could be wrong, I hope I am, I often am actually.
Peace, love, joy and all that good stuff. Janice
Posted by Brandon on February 26, 2000, at 0:39:38
In reply to dj...you sound just like +, posted by Janice on February 25, 2000, at 22:03:46
dj,
Magic pill or not to find evidence that SOME depressions are not just psychological but also chemically caused you would have to look no farther than this board. Many people have found tremendous relief from medicines ask WayneR, and he doesnt go around crucifying therapy and self help.
Brandon
Posted by Renee N on February 26, 2000, at 1:10:44
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
DJ, Since you've been back here I have been holding my tongue, trying to respect you and your ideas. I'm afraid you come across as almost brainwashed. What is this "Haven" place, anyway? I feel fearful that it is cultlike.
We all choose different paths. I hope we all reach peace eventually. Please, stop trying to convince us that your way is the only way.
The phrase"delusions of grandeur" popped into my head while reading your posts. If you don't like our ideas here, please just leave. Please quit preaching!
Despite the negativity of my message here, I do wish you well... Renee N
Posted by Thanks for your comments some clarification on February 26, 2000, at 3:07:53
In reply to DJ, posted by Renee N on February 26, 2000, at 1:10:44
If you have chosen to take offense at my comments, I'm sorry to read that. Sure I have been pumping the Haven but there's nothing going on that's cultish there (far from it), just sheer gratitude on my behalf. However clumsily, in my own way, I am expessing my appreciation publically here for all that I've learned in the workshops there, which I know to have been key to much of my healing. That and all the other factors I have mentioned in a number of posts.
If you want to suggest that, that's the gospel according to DJ, that's fine, but far from the truth. I may come across as dogmatic in expressing my points but that's because I truly believe that ADs are a crutch and that goes against the grain here, obviously. And I believe many folks here and elsewhere do cling to their afflictions because that's part of the symptom, their identification with it and it's also supported by the predominant medical view in our society, which has value, but is far from the whole picture.
I'm not suggesting that reading any or all of the books I or anyone else has mentioned will necessarily make a difference to anyone. But they may challenge your thinking, just as they did mine and the Haven did more so, as well as show a different route. I was very identified with my depressed state and suicidal when I went to the Haven, several times, and skeptical. I was experiencing intense mental and physical discomfort as a result of being under intense stress the past year, for many reasons, which I've previously delved into here.
The programs there helped me get through that and rebalance my life by intervening in compassionate ways, challenging my thinking, and offering me other ways of looking at things which just as with true Buddhism and Christianity I am free to take or leave. Over time, I've come to believe in the power of compassion, starting with myself (and working out from there) and the methods which have worked for me and I believe will work for most people, though mileage will vary.
A few months back I would have been mortified and self-hating due to your responses. Now, I accept if for what it is, feedback from your own points of view and experiences. If they don't gel with mine, that's okay. If they do, that's okay. I'm not attached to either result.
As for anger, I have my share and I believe that the healing power of anger properly channeled is much underated. I also believe that anger is always covering up another emotion and that if we do the work, connect with that emotion and express it in an effective manner that can be very healing and in fact is at much of the root of healing. And ADs can mask those emotions and make them very difficult, if not impossibe to access.
Part of my healing has been and is working through my previously poorly expressed (to the administration) dissapointment at the quality of the IT education I received over the past year and dealing with it, in a generally constructive manner by pursuing compensation through various channels and discussing it in detail with both those who agree with me and those who don't.
Anger leaks out sometimes because it is there and it is genuine. However, I am usually less effective when I give it full rein, though on occasion that can be helpful. However, I generally believe the Buddhist take on it that it is like a hot iron ball that you swallow and it burns you all the way through. Which can certainly motivate one, though more often in a reactive manner.
One of the books I've previously mentioned is Undoing Depression by Richard O'Connor who runs a mental health clinic as well as having dealt with his own depression. He believes and makes the case, drawing from his own experience and a cross-section of psychiatric theories, that habits of depression are learned and hence can be unlearned. I concur. He also believes that ADs have their place. I also concur there.
(Here's a sample of some of his thoughts:
"This is an unorthodox theory of change and recovery. I remember how for decades the analytic community debated whether true "structural change," as opposed to mere "symptom relief," could ever come from anything other than full-blown psychoanalysis. Now prominent scientists argue that recovery can come only from medication. These dogmatic positions are appeals to magic, not reason. I believe that people can make substantial changes in how they live their emotional lives, in their personalities, even in their brain chemistry, by replacing what depression has taught them with new, more adaptive, ways of thinking, feeling, relating, and acting." (page 5)http://www.undoingdepression.com/excerpts.html)
However I also believe that just as with crutches for a broken leg, ADs are only part of the picture and are inadequate in and of themselves. You also need to set the leg properly as otherwise you not only will be in pain, you will suffer needlessly. I believe people suffer needlessly and excessively from depression and anxiety because they don't set their emotional fractures properly and hence don't heal properly and hence are weaker rather than stronger in the places where they have been injured and not properly healed.
And sometimes you may have to refracture that poorly healed appendage to properly heal. That to me is whateffective therapy, in whatever form works for you, is all about and in my experience having tried lots of group and one-on-one therapies over the past 25 years the work they do at the Haven is the most integral, clean, effective, compassionate and loving I have experienced. If I don't always do a good job of reflecting what I've learned there, well the learning never ends, though I have and will get better with time and practice. I am only human, even if + thinks (and others perhaps as well) that I am Satan's disciple, in which case I can always claim the devil made me do it ; ).
So I can go on but I won't. Take what you will and discard the rest and feel free to dismiss it all and me with it, if you so choose. That is your choice, not mine. I am at peace with myself, whether any of you are or not and regardless of any point of view you wish to project upon me. And I repeat the Irish toast I previously noted (I'll hold back on the Scottish one): "May the most you desire, be the least you achieve." And if you don't achieve bugger all, well that's unfortunate but that's life...
Posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 10:30:29
In reply to NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by dj on February 22, 2000, at 17:29:31
I would like to know who this Dr. Nesse guy is. Is he a MD psychiatrist? Or is he is another asshole eccentric psychologist out to prove something with his research? If he is a psychologist type he has no credibility with me and I negate his opinion.
If this guy has a very strong background in hard science...biology, chemistry, physics, the neurosciences, etc. I would respect his opinion MUCH more. But you gotta realize how much bs is out there when it comes to depression understanding and such. Research conducted by psychologists and other non hard science oriented mental health "experts" is highly questionable.
Anytime you read something in print, you should ask yourself "who is this person who wrote this?" Gotta know who they are, so you can understand what their biases are. Everyone is biased to one extent or another. Psychologist types are biased that depression is the result of environmental influences, bad child rearing, etc. Whereas psychiatrists are generally biased that depression is just another medical problem that is probably genetically rooted and can be activated by environmental stress.
So who EXACTLY is this Dr. Nesse guy? Psychologist type? Or a person versed in medicine and hard science?
Posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 10:43:20
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 10:30:29
Eric, I don't see it as so all-or-nothing. I think depression, and other issues related to the functioning of our brains, is very complex. You can come at the problem from different directions, and usually, in order to be effective, you need to be flexible enough to come at it from several. To me, the evolutionary biology perspective described in the article doesn't preclude a medical perspective at all. What bothers me is when people who see things from the psychological perspective only want to see it from that perspective, and dismiss the medical. Similarly, I think it is a mistake for someone who sees things from the medical perspective to dismiss the possibility that the psychological perspective might have something to offer them in their thinking about depression.
Posted by Brenda on February 26, 2000, at 11:15:08
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 10:43:20
> Eric, I don't see it as so all-or-nothing. I think depression, and other issues related to the functioning of our brains, is very complex. You can come at the problem from different directions, and usually, in order to be effective, you need to be flexible enough to come at it from several. To me, the evolutionary biology perspective described in the article doesn't preclude a medical perspective at all. What bothers me is when people who see things from the psychological perspective only want to see it from that perspective, and dismiss the medical. Similarly, I think it is a mistake for someone who sees things from the medical perspective to dismiss the possibility that the psychological perspective might have something to offer them in their thinking about depression.
What a trip! I'm new here and just read all the above comments. BTW - I'm a 19 yr. recovering alcoholic - no longer in AA, but still love the 12-steps. There was a time years ago if you were in AA you couldn't be treated for depression with meds. "They" considered it a "mood" drug, and consequently a break in your sobriety. So many people suffered. Personally, I feel there's a zillion kinds of depression. Situational, genetic, etc. Some can be overcome by dj's method - most however, probably need meds and therapy. I know mine does.
DJ - be well. I love the written word. When I was in AA "they" used to say "whatever works," and "don't fix it if it ain't broke." But if I had a broken leg, I wouldn't fix it myself. I think my brain was a little broken and the Zoloft helps with that - also, swimming, gardening, working, therapy, family, pets, and whereever you can find your joy.
Posted by dove on February 26, 2000, at 11:25:17
In reply to Re: NYTimes interesting depression coverage..., posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 10:43:20
Well, DJ...
You have changed, you've changed in many ways since I first began reading your posts, your thoughts. You are so much angrier, scathing criticism for those who preach just as yourself.
You speak of compassion, yet there is none, you have none. You speak of an open-mind, yet yours is locked down, slammed shut. You speak of the road to enlightenment, yet the road is well travelled and the dead end is filled with empty shells. You speak of spiritual enlightement, yet we see no evidence. You have no proof, no material results, other than your own diatribe aimed at hurting people, the seekers you claim to belong to. How can you speak as you do and claim healing, claim to be better?
How many of us are literate, educated, and well read. The many influences and guiding lights you advise us to partake of, we have already done. The zen motorcycle of life is nothing more than empty baubles, been there, done that. Pop psychology? No thank you. Talking to exorcise your demons of depression, or OCD, or whatever is not the final solution, and for many, will never be the final solution. How can you explain the lineage of suicide that travels down, across continents and over 300 years?
You would have me bury my head in empty words, empty philosophy, educate myself because you judge me ignorant of knowing myself? I shared my heart and thoughts honestly with you. I listened and read with compassion, and so did the rest. I don't think you see yourself with clarity if you think you are sharing your heart, or that you are speaking with love or compassion. Your words have not been kind nor humble, which are the tenets of certain beliefs you subscribe to, the same tenets that have pulled you out of the mire of depression and so enlightened you.
You have essentially spit on all of us that have been your companions in this journey. Why?
dove
Posted by Katie on February 26, 2000, at 18:49:23
In reply to Good-byes to DJ, posted by dove on February 26, 2000, at 11:25:17
Hmmm, me thinks DJ might benefit by seeing a good psychiatrist and taking some heavy-duty psychotrophic medications.
Posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 19:16:00
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by dj on February 25, 2000, at 12:25:12
> > ... It's unfortunate that a lot of people are just looking for the "magic" pill, when therapy or a combination might be more helpful.
> > dj, thanx for yet another, great post!CarolAnn
>
> Thank you, CA, for both reading and commenting. I'm weaning myself off psycho-babble because so many folks here seem focused on the 'magic pill' approach and I'm frankly very tired of reading about pharmaceutical panaceas, which in my view and based on my experience are a crutch that many never seem to let go of, because they are not willing to tackle the core issues and stay focused and obssessing on the symptoms and NOT the cause.
>
> Though my energy and concentration is still not consistently where I would like it to be (though it is generally), since I've used multiple conventional and non-conventional but scientifically sound approachs to dealing with my issues (as documented throughout Psycho-babble)I feel much, much better. And replacing the ADs with sound nutrition, a limited mix of supplements (Siberian ginseng, ginkgo biloba, lecithin, multi-vitmins) from trusted sources (Jamieson) as well as applying the principles J&B (see my posting to Janice, above) and others have drawn from the best of eastern and western medicine and therapies have played a large role in that rebalancing (as I most certainly felt out of balance when depressed and even more so, in different ways while on ADs).
>
You are going to have a long, sad, hard life DJ. Because you are obviously in severe denial about your depression probs. I dont feel sorry for you though. In fact, I despise people such as yourself because people like you give all us other depressed people a bad name. You spread poor information that lay people (those who have no experience with depression) oftentimes believe to be true. I dont think you will make a dent in your depression by reading self help books, taking siberian ginseng, taking vitamins, etc. You are a loser and a wimp. Because you dont have the guts to admit to yourself you have major problems with your health and go on the requisite medication(antidepressants).DJ, I suspect you will end up a scientologist or something. Probably making them lots of money. They love dummies like yourself and you sound like one of them. I dont feel sorry for you one bit DJ even though I know your health is not good.
Posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 20:11:12
In reply to Re: magic pill -- NOT...books adieu..(very long), posted by Eric on February 26, 2000, at 19:16:00
Eric, while I understand your anger at DJ's post, I am almost as uncomfortable with the tone of your post, especially the name calling ("loser", "wimp", "dummies") as I am with DJ's posts.
Why must everything get so combative?
Posted by phillybob on February 27, 2000, at 1:38:41
In reply to Re: angry responses, posted by Noa on February 26, 2000, at 20:11:12
Come on people, isn't DJ's only fault here that he truly believes "that ADs are a crutch and that goes against the grain here." Yes, that can elicit some strong anger here, but can't we recognize that his statement is just his opinion?
I, for one, disagree with that opinion solely because it does re-inforce an attitude which will have more negative effects than positive ones. Too many people need medication and are helped by medication and can not live a life without it (and I'd suspect the increased use of meds in the world's greatly increasing population is a more practical way to address and often solve the problem of mental illness than not.) I think the clear majority on this board would agree that meds have a vital place in the treatment of our depressions.
With that said, I found nothing offensive in DJ's sermon because it reflected his experience which could easily be helpful to others here as do the posts on the other treatments, typically medications, themselves. Of course, the type of "treatment" that DJ suggests is not viable for many but could certainly be so for some.
DJ seems to have had a paradigm shift in his thinking about his depression, which due to my current med-free status as I "detox" in anticipation of an MAOI trial, is relevant to me.
While I am somewhat skeptical (my nature) of the true efficacy of his recovery having been in similar situations myselves, I respect that he is feeling better. My skepticism just wonders whether this good mood will parlay itself into mania or whether this good mood's cause has a little too much to do with his having met a gal of late. Either way, if he feels better for now or forever, great!
If he does not, the people on this board will be here for him. Negative posts aimed at DJ directly could alienate him from re-visiting here if times become rough again. And, even though tonight is my first visit, I know that this can be a very helpful place.
If you will read this at all DJ, continue not to respond in anything less than the positive tone (with one post's exception) that you have. Also, while experience for me has not shown that I can maintain recovery outside of meds (nor within, for that matter), I encourage you in your efforts to "be" sustained. But, please try to rethink your personal bias against meds for the benefit of those who do truly benefit from meds (everyone's illness IS unique).
Best wishes!
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