![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:20:51
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
So +, are you any relationship to the man formerly called Prince?
Your narrow mindness is showing. Take a look at my references and don't just come back with your dogma. How do you know it's an accurate translation? Were you there? There are many who are doubtless more knowledgable and creditable than you who question the various interpretations of what the bible presents.
Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me.
> This doesn't take much intelligence to interpret. This is an accurate translation of what Christ said. Does any other religion recognize Christ as the Messiah? If not why should Christians acknowledge it? If so why is it not called Christianity? If you are seeking some other god, seek it somewhere other than the >Church.
Posted by John on January 28, 2000, at 16:26:37
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
>After being raised a strict Catholic and being instilled with the belief in original and mortal sin and confession to repent for our sins I rejected it all as soon as I was old enough to escape it's clutches. But when I look back I still fondly remember the beauty and mysticism of a High Mass. It's unfortunate that the church has twisted around the teachings of Jesus into a dogma of sin, guilt and hypocrisy to perpetuate the existence of the church.
Since rejecting the church over 30 years ago I've been looking for spiritual meaning to my life. My first bout with depression a few years ago reminded me of just how spiritually empty I had become. Shortly after recovering from my depression a friend introduced me to Marianne Williamson's book "A Return to Love" Reflections on A Course in Miracles, that blew me out of the water. It was the teachings of Jesus presented in a totally new manner. It changed my life and I would highly recommend the book to anyone looking for spiritual meaning to their life without the burden of organized religion and it's dogma. Unfortunately to many Christian zealot's the book is heresy. Make your own opinion. The book is a wonderful breath of fresh air that I believe would benefit anyone especially those of us suffering from depression or anxiety.
The book that Williamson refers to is "A Course in Miracles" which can be found in most large bookstores. There are also several web sites dedicated to providing daily spiritual cognitive behavioral practice lessons to practice that I've found very helpful in regaining my life as a loving, caring, forgiving person with suffering from anxiety, guilt or depression.
If you're interested you can find their information at their new web site at: http://nen.sedona.net/circleofa/./
The lessons can be found at: http://www.quik.com/~spade/acim.cgi
And Williamson's book can be found at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Borders web sites and stores.
Posted by Louisa on January 28, 2000, at 17:12:10
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
There's not much that's accurate about the King James Bible. How's your Greek? (which is only a substitute for the original Aramaic, anyway). And besides, who says that any of the original evangelists, who all wrote considerably after the events in question, and John later than any of them, by the way, remembered every word correctly?
I consider myself to be a Catholic Christian, but I also believe that God has enough kindness, mercy and love not to damn any of those who seek (to your surprise, that may even include you -- who knows?).
Go ahead, call me a heretic. I'm used to it -- but they gave up burning people at the stake a while ago, ok?
Louisa
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 17:17:44
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by John on January 28, 2000, at 16:26:37
Marianne Williamson's book starts with some comments on her experience of depression and how it is a refection of our society and times. Very interesting book and she is a much clearer interpreter of the text than many. The textof the Course in Miracles, like the bible (which has lots of barbarism in it if one bothers to read beyond the usual pious quotes) is a bit thick going when it comes to making heads or tales of it.
Williamson, interestingly was brought up Jewish (as was the disciple Paul & many in that time) and is considered one of the foremost interpreters of this at times byzantine text. I've heard at least two Catholic priests (forward looking ones) speak approvingly of the theology of the Course.
The following quote is often falsely attributed to Nelson Mandela's inaugral address, which is a nice thought but a blatant falsehood as a check of his speeches will soon show you, if you care to verify that from any of the many on-line sources for them.
This is from page 188-9 of the 1994 paperback edition of, "A Return to Love":
"As I interpret the Course, 'our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.' We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our light shine, we unconsciouly give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our prescence automatically liberates others."My mother who is deeply Christian/Catholic in deed and word resonated with this quote when I sent her a copy.
More on MW can be found at http://www.marianne.com
For therepeutically based programs, which are informed by ACIM one source is:
http://www.clearmind.ca
> Shortly after recovering from my depression a friend introduced me to Marianne Williamson's book "A Return to Love" Reflections on A Course in Miracles, that blew me out of the water. It was the teachings of Jesus presented in a totally new manner. It changed my life and I would highly recommend the book to anyone looking for spiritual meaning to their life without the burden of organized religion and it's dogma. Unfortunately to many Christian zealot's the book >is heresy. Make your own opinion.
Posted by CarolAnn on January 28, 2000, at 18:10:23
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
Cass, when my husband and I decided to have a baby, we decided that we needed to have a church as a spiritual "base" to raise the child in. We both feel (and have read research which agrees) that a lot of the problems modern teens face stem from a lack of faith in any kind of Higher Power.
However, neither of us is interested in any kind of judgemental, holier then thou, dogma oriented, religion. We also both feel that the Bible cannot be taken literally, and wanted a church which would not teach it as literal.
Anyway, we ended up choosing the Methodist church as we have found it to be pretty much exactly what our faith required. It is nice to worship in a church where people of every "type" are accepted as God's children, and welcomed, with no attempts to convert anyone to any particular way of believing.CarolAnn
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:40:54
In reply to Re: Religion 101 for + , posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:20:51
"Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:58:16
In reply to for +, posted by Louisa on January 28, 2000, at 17:12:10
I have a Concordance, a King James version, a paraphrased version, a Catholic version, and a modern translation. Do you interpret that passage of scripture differently? (John 10:1-10 etc..) You might get through the pearly gates too, that would be up to someone else.
Posted by Anon on January 28, 2000, at 19:52:16
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.
Posted by Cass on January 28, 2000, at 20:02:37
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Any system of beliefs can be misused and exploited. Personally, I believe that there is probably great truth and understanding to be gained in A Course in Miracles. However, when I was a child, my mother misused metaphysical beliefs. Some of the beliefs became weapons, i.e. if any of us questioned her neglectful, irrational behavior, we were just "too spiritually unevolved to recognize her perfection." If she inflicted any emtional harm, we were just suffering the results of bad karma. If we were sick and wanted medicine, we were just too unevolved to see the illness as a spiritual opportunity. She used it as a way to diminish us. Unfortunately, the experience left me sour on the idea of A Course in Miracles. I'm fully aware of it probable value, but it takes me back in time to a place I don't want to revisit.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 20:58:37
In reply to to +, posted by Anon on January 28, 2000, at 19:52:16
> this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
>
> He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.I don't agree. I think his point was that there is no way to gain salvation other than him. There are other scriptures that confirm this. You are free to interpret as you like.
Posted by Adam on January 28, 2000, at 22:15:28
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child,
I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.I Corinthians 13
Anyway, a nice web site on buddhism geared towards Westerners is here:
http://www.fwbo.org/index.html
I thought it provided lots more useful information than I did, in case
anyone is interested.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:40:54
FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana.
All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer as any other philosophical set of principles, all of which have good and bad points NONE of which is superior to any other. The superiority comes in the practice of core principles not the mealy mouthed, sancitmonious crap that hyprocrites spew, while crucifying those who disagree with them.
Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude, which you cloak in the supposed words of God ie: good. My apologies that the formattings isn't as good as it might be as I don't have the time to edit it. Lovely stories though, unlike many in the barbarous Bible.
"> > During my second month of nursing school, our
> > > professor gave us a pop quiz.
> > > I was a conscientious student and had breezed
> > > through the questions, until I read the last one:
> > > "What is the first name of the woman who cleans the
> > > school?"
> > >
> > > Surely this was some kind of joke. I had seen the
> > > cleaning woman several times. She was tall,
> > >dark-haired and in her 50s,but how would I know her
> > >name? I handed in my paper, leaving the last
> > >question blank.
> > >
> > > Just before class ended, one student asked if the
> > > last question would count toward our quiz grade.
> > >"Absolutely," said the
> > > professor. "In your careers,you will meet many
> > >people. All are significant.
> > >
> > > They deserve your attention and care, even if all
> > >you do is smile and say 'hello'."
> > >
> > > "I've never forgotten that lesson. I also learned
> > > her name was Dorothy.
> > >
> > > Second Important Lesson~ Pick up in the Rain
> > >
> > > One night, at 11:30 PM, an older African American
> > > woman was standing on the side of an Alabama highway
> > > trying to endure a lashing rain storm. Her car
> > > had broken down and she desperately needed a ride.
> > > Soaking wet, she decided to flag down the next car.
> > > A young white man stopped to help her, generally
> > >unheard of in those conflict-filled 1960s.
> > >
> > > The man took her to safety, helped her get
> > > assistance and put her into a
> > > taxicab. She seemed to be in a big hurry, but wrote
> > > down his address and thanked him. Seven days went
> > >by and a knock came on the man's door. To his
> > >surprise, a giant console color TV was delivered to
> > >his home. A special note was attached.
> > >
> > > It read: "Thank you so much for assisting me on
> > > the highway the other night. The rain drenched not
> > > only my clothes, but also my spirits. Then
> > > you came along. Because of you, I was able to make
> > > it to my dying husband's bedside just before he
> > >passed away. God bless you for helping me and
> > > unselfishly serving others."
> > > Sincerely, Mrs. Nat King Cole.
> > >
> > > Third Important Lesson ~ Always Remember Those
> > > Who Serve You
> > >
> > > In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much
> > > less, a 10-year old boy entered a hotel coffee shop
> > > and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
> > > water in front of him. "How much is an ice cream
> > >sundae?" he asked.
> > > "Fifty cents," replied the waitress. The little
> > > boy pulled his hand out of
> > > his pocket and studied the coins in it. "Well, how
> > > much is a plain dish of
> > > ice cream?" he inquired. By now more people were
> > > waiting for a table and the waitress was growing
> > >impatient.
> > > "Thirty-five cents," she brusquely replied."
> > > The little boy again counted his coins. "I'll have
> > > the plain ice cream,"
> > > he said. The waitress brought the ice cream, put
> > >the
> > > bill on the table and walked away.
> > >
> > > The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier
> > > and left. When the waitress came back, she began to
> > > cry as she wiped down the
> > > table. There, placed beside the empty dish, were
> > >two nickels and five pennies - You see,he couldn't
> > >have the sundae, because he had to have enough left
> > >to leave her a tip.
> > >
> > > Fourth Important Lesson ~ The Obstacle In Our
> > > Path
> > >
> > > In ancient times, a King had a boulder placed on a
> > > roadway.Then he hid himself and watched to see if
> > > anyone would remove the huge rock.
> > > Some of the king's wealthiest merchants and
> > > courtiers came by and simply walked around it.
> > >
> > > Many loudly blamed the king for not keeping the
> > > roads clear, but none did anything about getting the
> > > stone out of the way.
> > > Then a peasant came along carrying a load of
> > > vegetables. Upon approaching the boulder, the
> > >peasant laid down his burden and tried to move the
> > >stone
> > > to the side of the road. After much pushing and
> > > straining, he finally succeeded.
> > >
> > > After the peasant picked up his load of vegetables,
> > > he noticed a purse lying in the road where the
> > >boulder had been.The purse contained many gold coins
> > >and a note from the king indicating
> > > that the gold was for the person who removed the
> > >boulder from the roadway. The
> > > peasant learned what many of us never understand.
> > >
> > > Every obstacle presents an opportunity to improve
> > > our condition.
> > >
> > > Fifth Important Lesson ~ Giving When It Counts
> > >
> > > Many years ago, when I worked as a volunteer at a
> > > hospital, I got to know a
> > > little girl named Liz who was suffering from a rare
> > > and serious disease. Her only chance of recovery
> > >appeared to be a blood transfusion from her
> > > 5-year old brother, who had miraculously survived
> > > the same disease and had developed the antibodies
> > > needed to combat the illness. The doctor
> > > explained the situation to her little brother, and
> > > asked the little boy if he would be willing to give
> > > his blood to his sister. I saw him hesitate for
> > >only a moment before taking a deep breath and
> > >saying,
> > > "Yes, I'll do it if it will save her..."
> > >
> > > As the transfusion progressed, he lay in bed next to his sister and smiled, as we all did, seeing the
> > > color returning to her cheeks. Then,his face grew pale and his smile faded. He looked up at the doctor and asked with a trembling voice, "Will I start to die right away?"
> > >
> > > Being young, the little boy had misunderstood the doctor; he thought he was going to have to give his sister all of his blood in order to save her.
> > >
> > > You see understanding and attitude, after all, is everything.> "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
>
> What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:57:38
In reply to Re: to Anon, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 20:58:37
Of course plus as you really are a minus you would interpret it in the most narrow, nonsensical manner. BTW, further on the concept of hell it is a creation here on earth, that folks like you shape with your lack of imagination and insight and your historical tendencies to crucify or do even more hideous things to folks who don't march to your tunes.
> > this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
> >
> > He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.
>
> I don't agree. I think his point was that there is no way to gain salvation other than him. There are other scriptures that confirm this. You are free to interpret as you like.
Posted by b.b. on January 29, 2000, at 0:06:29
In reply to Re: to Anon, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:57:38
d.j. if you spent less time trying to insult the posters and put more energy into making a sound point you might be worth an argument. Instead you allow your anger blind you to any sensible argument and instead make an ass out of yourself. True Christianity is derived from the bible no pastor or priest or even the pope (since I find the catholic religion to be very sacreligious) has interpreted my views and the media only distorts weak and easily influenced minds such as yours into anger and hostility against something it finds threatining. Yes I will admit that some very atrocious acts have been comitted in the name of Christ but these were comitted by men...simple men no different than you or I. Many things have been distorted by others if it offers them a chance at power. I am sorry that you are so jaded to Christian views I assure you that much of the views you tried to slam here (not much once you were done with the posters + especially) are not what I or many Christians practice. Organized religion will almost always breed some form of corruption and many will allow themselves to become pacified by their weekly sunday visits to the pulpit but that is a very murky reflection of what Christ intended and still perserves in many today. You seem like a well read individual if you ever decide to open your narrow mind I suggest you read these two books. "Lucifer Dethroned" and "A woman rides the beast" both by chick publications.
b.b.
Posted by Adam on January 29, 2000, at 0:35:33
In reply to Re: Religion and Idiocy, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:35:42
I guess it's exactly these sorts of exchanges that turn me off
to "religion" (along with various other difficulties not relevant
to this discussion). Dogma. Invective. I honestly can't say
when I witness such discussions (which I find myself in also, from
time to time, much to my own chagrin once I've calmed down)
that this is religious or spiritual behavior as it was meant to
be or not.I was raised Catholic as well. I stopped being Catholic at age 14,
during the confirmation process, mostly to piss my father off, who
spoke out of both sides of his mouth when it came to Christian
practices, and thus was a poor role model for both the faithful and
the agnostic alike. When I got older I started to actually think
about it, in the context of the secular study of world religions.What I came away with, in regards to Jesus, was that (and this is,
of course, an academic, not spiritual view) he grew to become an
apocalyptic prophet who sought to reform Judaism in a radical manner
and thus save as many as he could from their imminent fate: the Hell
of Fire. This meant making a sincere effort to follow both the letter
and the spirit of the Law, the latter more so than the former. This
also meant accepting a serious burden: That you must, as he was
prepared to do, take up your own cross and follow him down a straight
and narrow path leading to the End of all things and a new beginning.
Anything worldly that encumbered this journey was to be dispensed with,
be it your money, your livestock, your own eyes if they betrayed you.
A uniquely passivist stance made a great deal of sense, as the might
Rome would never be overthrown without God's intervention. He may
have seen his own death as a necessary event or hallmark leading to
the final battle.Paul's exegesis of the Jesus movement saw the role of Jesus as Christ
not so much as a Davidic priest-king but a spiritual intercessor and
the absolutely essential agent of salvation. The hopelessness of
humanity, the indelible taint of original sin could never be cured
without Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. What was expected of his
followers, as far as Paul was concerned, was total and utter faith in
Jesus's message (as interpreted by Paul, who felt Jesus spoke to him
directly) and unquestioning belief in Jesus as the risen Lord. The
implication is that God does love us, but he also gives us a choice,
to follow with absolute faith or not, with dire consequences for those
who choose the latter. Goodness without Christ is utter vanity, and
for those who have heard the message and still do not believe, it is
no refuge from Gehenna.John's Apocalypse not withstanding (hardly a comforting message for the
naysayers or the halfhearted), Paul has essentially the final word on
the matter of Jesus' message. After that the cannon was sealed (there is,
of course, in the New Testament's organization, not a chronological but
conceptual order).Jesus' message, in his own words and in interpretation, is one of love
indeed, but it's tough love. Of course it's everyone's right to interpret
the Scriptures for themselves and find their own message, and that can
mean picking and choosing which parts are Truth, fact, allegory,
symbol, or lie. I've no clue how to do that, and gave up a long time
ago even trying. I do feel there's no explicit provision for such
interpretation in the New Testament, and thus no real guide except one's
own convictions or perhaps spiritual experiences.I am not prepared, and I'm not sure anyone else should be here, to say that
+ is "wrong". His or her words, though strident, aren't at variance with
the core beliefs of the Christian faith, as far as I an see. Paul himself
got hopping mad at members of some of the early churches for what he saw as
their deviance from or misinterpretations of the essential beliefs (being
quite confident of his own position of authority, and not afraid to remind
others of it.)Who is right? Who is wrong? Is Christianity really a big tent? Who can
say? It's too bad it has to be fought over. But perhaps a real aspect of
being a devoted follower of Christ is the willingness to engage in such
battles, so long as they are fought with the sincere hope not of imposing
a viewpoint but of saving a life. That's what Jesus did, after all, and he
was willing to get nailed to a tree rather than sit still and let people
burn. I don't accept Christian evangelism today any more than I did many
years ago, but I tolerate it with politeness now rather than sarcasm as I
did in the past. I think it's because I know that sincere evangelists aren't
trying to hurt me, they're really trying to do me a big, big favor.
> FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana. Same crap, different pile.
>
> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer
>
> > "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
> >
> > What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by Cass on January 29, 2000, at 1:11:57
In reply to Re: Religion and Idiocy, posted by Adam on January 29, 2000, at 0:35:33
I'd like to thank everyone who has had suggestions for me. I'm grateful that this discussion has provided plenty of intelligent thoughts for me to ponder. This Sunday, I'm trying the Unitarian church. I'll see how I like it and go from there.
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 1:20:22
In reply to Re: to D.J., posted by b.b. on January 29, 2000, at 0:06:29
Well excussssseeeee me, BB, but my points are just as valid and probably more so than yours and despite a few thrusts at the insulting comments that you and + post about those who don't follow your narrow logic going to hell, I back mine up with more diverse and credible sources. My anger is justified by the hyprocrisies I've noted again and again by such as you, so if that's jaded so be it. But then again that's your opinion which does not count for much with me, unless you can back it up with other than chapter and verse.
Just who are the likes of you to judge the Catholic religion sacreligious when the pope is supposedly infallable...according to some...
Posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 3:02:25
In reply to Re: to BB, posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 1:20:22
"But then again that's your
opinion which does not count for much with me"Ditto.
Posted by JohnB on January 29, 2000, at 4:04:24
In reply to To d.j. (satans advocate), posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 3:02:25
I think whoever first said "Never discuss religion or politics" might have been on to something :)
Posted by Stacy on January 29, 2000, at 6:34:51
In reply to Re: Wise Advice, posted by JohnB on January 29, 2000, at 4:04:24
> I think whoever first said "Never discuss religion or politics" might have been on to something :)
Here, here!! As a Christian I'm advised in the Bible to "go & make disciples of all nations." What I have learned is that all you can do is present your point, & pray for people. Trying to shove it down someone's throat does nothing but cause strife, & turn people off to what you say. God Himself will not force anyone to believe, & gives us free will.
A friend of mine used to say that no one ever wins an argument. I think it would be best to close the door on this one before it gets out of hand; a lot of good things were said, & I, for one, don't want to see anyone defeat their own purpose.
Thanks for the wise advice, JohnB. Take care!
Stacy
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 8:05:55
In reply to Re: Wise Advice, posted by Stacy on January 29, 2000, at 6:34:51
Amen, from the side of the irritable but not fallen angels.
> > I think whoever first said "Never discuss religion or politics" might have been on to something :)
>
> Here, here!! As a Christian I'm advised in the Bible to "go & make disciples of all nations." What I have learned is that all you can do is present your point, & pray for people. Trying to shove it down someone's throat does nothing but cause strife, & turn people off to what you say. God Himself will not force anyone to believe, & gives us free will.
>
> A friend of mine used to say that no one ever wins an argument. I think it would be best to close the door on this one before it gets out of hand; a lot of good things were said, & I, for one, don't want to see anyone defeat their own purpose.
>
> Thanks for the wise advice, JohnB. Take care!
>
> Stacy
Posted by cag on January 29, 2000, at 11:04:50
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
Whew! You is one angry dude!
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 11:52:24
In reply to To Dj : Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by cag on January 29, 2000, at 11:04:50
> Whew! You is one angry dude!
Only when it comes to dogma, dude and folks who preach rather than practice. I'm not accusing anyone of being Satan's spawn...If you're up on your bible you'd know that Christ had little time for such folk. I grew up with and know many real, as opposed to pseudo, Christians whom I have plenty of time and respect for because they are open to genuine discusssion and don't afflict me with dogma, narrow minds and promises of hell.
BTW, the header above refers to a 1993 book by Tim Ward who also wrote: "What the Buddha Never Taught". I'll let him speak for himself about some of the issues discussed above:
xi - xii "Before I left home to wander Asia, my good friend Dan Matheson, a retired United Church minister, by way of expressing his concern over my journey, told me that early European maps often contained large blank spaces to represent areas where no explorers had ventured. These places were marked "There be Dragons Here."...In the East...the dragon is a symbol of transformation...If I wanted to encounter dragons, I knew I would have to leave behind all I had learned in college and in church...and learn to see with Eastern eyes...I debated going to Bible college and becoming a pastor, but instead chose to study philosophy...To me a faith that couldn't stand up to rigorous intellectual examination wasn't worth owning...After graduation I realized I had glimpsed only a sliver of the world's wisdom. I had traveled Europe, studied philosophy and studied Christianity, but now I felt confined by the Western perspective I had limited myself to, and hungered for more. I looked East and saw...its spiritual traditions were in bloom well before Socrates...and before Christ was born. Although I knew little of Buddhism, its dedication to penetrating illusion by focusing the mind appealed to me greatly. I decided to go to India, plant myself in a Buddhist monastery, and learn to meditate as a starting block for exploring Asia."
134 - "Buddhism only teaches about suffering and how to remove it," said the monk "Believe in God or not, as you like. Do you want to remove suffering? Then hear the Buddha's words..."
"The Buddha observed that life contains suffering," the monk begain again, "This is the First Noble Truth. This is not a little problem. The world is on fire with suffering. It burns and blinds...The causes of suffering are desire, hatred, and delusion. This is the Second Noble Truth. The root of suffering lies not in the world around us but in our craving and aversion and ignorance. We want to have things that are seperate from us, and we want to be apart from things that we cannot escape. Even the things we have that we like, they will be taken away from us, just as the health of youth is destroyed by sickness, old age and death...But there is a way to escape suffering, a way discovered by the Buddha. By cutting the cords of desire, hatred and ignorance we can be free. This is the Third Noble Truth. Simple to understand, yes but difficult to practice. The way to cut the cords is to follow the Buddha's Eightfold Path. This is the Fourth Noble Truth. All the Buddha taught was the walking of this path."
137 - "The ultimate goal for a Buddhist is nirvana," the monk began, "from ni -- meaning the negative and vana -- the craving that connects one lifetime to another. Nirvana is the departure from the lust that binds us to suffering. One must practice all eight elements of the path to attain this goal:
"First, right knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, and second right understanding of how to apply these Truthes to life with compassion and wisdom. Third, right morality; avoiding killing, stealing, wrongful sex, or taking liquor -- actions that create bad karma and lead to more craving. Fourth, right livelihood: avoiding work such as butchery, selling animals for food, slavery, or work that oppresses or harms living beings. Fifth, right speech: no lying, slander, foolish chatter or harshness...Sixth, right effort: not wasting past good deeds by commiting evil ones, but consistently treading on the path. Seventh, right concentration: the ability to restrain and focus your mind. Eighth, right meditation: the stilling of the mind."..."Meditation is to purify...Every action produces karma, good or bad. But meditation is nonaction...the effects of even one minute of meditation -- that can never be destroyed."
I neither claim these views to be right or wrong, however I believe they stand up nicely in comparims to Christian and other religious ideals and in historical terms much good has come from the true practice of Buddhism and Christianity too, for that matter, as well as other religions.
Posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 16:09:36
In reply to The Great Dragon's Fleas (long), posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 11:52:24
The views I have stated, although known to be accurate, do not necessarily reflect the views of the Episcopal Church or the Christian Church in general.
Posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 16:14:33
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
> FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana.
>
> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer as any other philosophical set of principles, all of which have good and bad points NONE of which is superior to any other. The superiority comes in the practice of core principles not the mealy mouthed, sancitmonious crap that hyprocrites spew, while crucifying those who disagree with them.
>
> Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude, which you cloak in the supposed words of God ie: good. My apologies that the formattings isn't as good as it might be as I don't have the time to edit it. Lovely stories though, unlike many in the barbarous Bible.
>
> "> > During my second month of nursing school, our
> > > > professor gave us a pop quiz.
> > > > I was a conscientious student and had breezed
> > > > through the questions, until I read the last one:
> > > > "What is the first name of the woman who cleans the
> > > > school?"
> > > >
> > > > Surely this was some kind of joke. I had seen the
> > > > cleaning woman several times. She was tall,
> > > >dark-haired and in her 50s,but how would I know her
> > > >name? I handed in my paper, leaving the last
> > > >question blank.
> > > >
> > > > Just before class ended, one student asked if the
> > > > last question would count toward our quiz grade.
> > > >"Absolutely," said the
> > > > professor. "In your careers,you will meet many
> > > >people. All are significant.
> > > >
> > > > They deserve your attention and care, even if all
> > > >you do is smile and say 'hello'."
> > > >
> > > > "I've never forgotten that lesson. I also learned
> > > > her name was Dorothy.
> > > >
> > > > Second Important Lesson~ Pick up in the Rain
> > > >
> > > > One night, at 11:30 PM, an older African American
> > > > woman was standing on the side of an Alabama highway
> > > > trying to endure a lashing rain storm. Her car
> > > > had broken down and she desperately needed a ride.
> > > > Soaking wet, she decided to flag down the next car.
> > > > A young white man stopped to help her, generally
> > > >unheard of in those conflict-filled 1960s.
> > > >
> > > > The man took her to safety, helped her get
> > > > assistance and put her into a
> > > > taxicab. She seemed to be in a big hurry, but wrote
> > > > down his address and thanked him. Seven days went
> > > >by and a knock came on the man's door. To his
> > > >surprise, a giant console color TV was delivered to
> > > >his home. A special note was attached.
> > > >
> > > > It read: "Thank you so much for assisting me on
> > > > the highway the other night. The rain drenched not
> > > > only my clothes, but also my spirits. Then
> > > > you came along. Because of you, I was able to make
> > > > it to my dying husband's bedside just before he
> > > >passed away. God bless you for helping me and
> > > > unselfishly serving others."
> > > > Sincerely, Mrs. Nat King Cole.
> > > >
> > > > Third Important Lesson ~ Always Remember Those
> > > > Who Serve You
> > > >
> > > > In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much
> > > > less, a 10-year old boy entered a hotel coffee shop
> > > > and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
> > > > water in front of him. "How much is an ice cream
> > > >sundae?" he asked.
> > > > "Fifty cents," replied the waitress. The little
> > > > boy pulled his hand out of
> > > > his pocket and studied the coins in it. "Well, how
> > > > much is a plain dish of
> > > > ice cream?" he inquired. By now more people were
> > > > waiting for a table and the waitress was growing
> > > >impatient.
> > > > "Thirty-five cents," she brusquely replied."
> > > > The little boy again counted his coins. "I'll have
> > > > the plain ice cream,"
> > > > he said. The waitress brought the ice cream, put
> > > >the
> > > > bill on the table and walked away.
> > > >
> > > > The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier
> > > > and left. When the waitress came back, she began to
> > > > cry as she wiped down the
> > > > table. There, placed beside the empty dish, were
> > > >two nickels and five pennies - You see,he couldn't
> > > >have the sundae, because he had to have enough left
> > > >to leave her a tip.
> > > >
> > > > Fourth Important Lesson ~ The Obstacle In Our
> > > > Path
> > > >
> > > > In ancient times, a King had a boulder placed on a
> > > > roadway.Then he hid himself and watched to see if
> > > > anyone would remove the huge rock.
> > > > Some of the king's wealthiest merchants and
> > > > courtiers came by and simply walked around it.
> > > >
> > > > Many loudly blamed the king for not keeping the
> > > > roads clear, but none did anything about getting the
> > > > stone out of the way.
> > > > Then a peasant came along carrying a load of
> > > > vegetables. Upon approaching the boulder, the
> > > >peasant laid down his burden and tried to move the
> > > >stone
> > > > to the side of the road. After much pushing and
> > > > straining, he finally succeeded.
> > > >
> > > > After the peasant picked up his load of vegetables,
> > > > he noticed a purse lying in the road where the
> > > >boulder had been.The purse contained many gold coins
> > > >and a note from the king indicating
> > > > that the gold was for the person who removed the
> > > >boulder from the roadway. The
> > > > peasant learned what many of us never understand.
> > > >
> > > > Every obstacle presents an opportunity to improve
> > > > our condition.
> > > >
> > > > Fifth Important Lesson ~ Giving When It Counts
> > > >
> > > > Many years ago, when I worked as a volunteer at a
> > > > hospital, I got to know a
> > > > little girl named Liz who was suffering from a rare
> > > > and serious disease. Her only chance of recovery
> > > >appeared to be a blood transfusion from her
> > > > 5-year old brother, who had miraculously survived
> > > > the same disease and had developed the antibodies
> > > > needed to combat the illness. The doctor
> > > > explained the situation to her little brother, and
> > > > asked the little boy if he would be willing to give
> > > > his blood to his sister. I saw him hesitate for
> > > >only a moment before taking a deep breath and
> > > >saying,
> > > > "Yes, I'll do it if it will save her..."
> > > >
> > > > As the transfusion progressed, he lay in bed next to his sister and smiled, as we all did, seeing the
> > > > color returning to her cheeks. Then,his face grew pale and his smile faded. He looked up at the doctor and asked with a trembling voice, "Will I start to die right away?"
> > > >
> > > > Being young, the little boy had misunderstood the doctor; he thought he was going to have to give his sister all of his blood in order to save her.
> > > >
> > > > You see understanding and attitude, after all, is everything.
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
> >
> > What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.dj - Just read your parables and they really moved me. Thank you for the dose of humility, much appreciated. Sincerely - Cam W.
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