![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Joe Mechanic on September 25, 1999, at 13:08:33
Your car engine is running rough (symbolically the same as depression). The cause is a crack in the outer layer of a sparkplug wire, allowing sparks to shoot out at random and never reach the sparkplug (symbolically the same as neurotransmitter malfunction in the brain). We can do many things to improve the car's performance. New spark plugs, adjust air/fuel mixture, adjust ignition timing (symbolically the same as counseling and psychotherapy). They help improve the rough-running engine, but they don't address the underlying deficiency. It is still below its "normal" potential. We can try a new paint job, shiney hubcaps, surround-sound CD player, plush seats, high-tech fuel additive (symbolically the same as improved lifestyle, improved coping abilities). But no matter how hard we push the gas pedal, the car is incapable of performing "normally". That damn wire.
To fix it we need to replace the wire with a new one. Symbolically we can't replace parts of the brain. But we can work with them to repair them. We could wrap the cracked sparkplug wire with lots of electrical tape (symbolically the same as an antidepressant). Now the engine runs smooth. It is "normal". It is firing on all cylinders. All the other stuff...paint job, CD player, etc...is icing on the cake.
Hi. My name is Joe Mechanic. I suffer from lifelong depression. I am amazed at how "normal" people think depression is just a matter of willpower, attitude, lifestyle, diet, pulling oneself together, getting a grip, coming to terms, getting over it. I use the malfunctioning auto example when needed to defend myself from the skeptical onslaught of psychotherapy proponents, pharmacology skeptics, disbelieving friends and family, and the "normal" who just don't, can't, get it. A typical response is dumbfounded silence. I can see in their faces that for the first time ever they can actually grasp an understanding of the physical nature of depression. The stigma and misunderstanding of the physical nature of depression is staggering.
Why do so many think the brain is immune from malfunction? Kidneys malfunction. As do livers, thyroids, stomachs, skin, bones, blood, eyes,...and...brains. Can someone fix their depressed liver function with willpower? Would coming to terms with childhood trauma mend an eye? Why is it that the brain can supposedly be fixed with talk, attitude, exercise, lifestyle? Can't fix a kidney that way. Can't fix leukemia that way. Can't willpower a cancer away. I submit that our best efforts can certainly improve our faulty conditions. But unless we can fix the condition,improvement is limited and potential will remain below normal.
Back to the car, we improved it greatly, but we didn't fix it. Till we mended the wire. Then it was "normal". What is normal? Not being chronically depressed is normal. Having a bad day when something bad happens is normal. Having a good day when something good happens is normal. Having endless bad days no matter what happens is not normal. When all the paint jobs and overhauls and new tires only marginally improve a car, we can restore it to normal by servicing the core problem. Fix the deficiency. A bad paint job didn't cause the engine to act depressed. It was just a slightly faulty electrical system. No matter what else we do, the car will always be less than it's normal potential till that damn faulty sparkplug wire is treated.
Credit is due all here who engage in good counsel, good lifestyle. These obvisouly bring improvement. A nice new paint job. But it doesn't repair that broken wire. Not in the eye, the bones, the kidneys, or....the brain. Credit is even more due those attempting to fix the core problem. Antidepressants. I applaud all here who recognize that the brain is an organ like any other, and when it malfunctions it manifests itself in behavior. I applaud the strength and determination of those who struggle with their drugs to eventually fix the real problem. Sometimes it's not as easy as trying the first roll of electrical tape we can find. But the right kind of tape does exist. The wire can be fixed.
What if we wrap electrical tape around a good sparkplug wire? Nothing. Nothing was wrong in the first place. What happens if someone "normal" takes an antidepressant? Nothing. Nothing was wrong in the first place. (Well, they would get some side effects probably) That antidepressants actually work is proof positive that a physical organic malfunction was at fault. Again, other things improved the condition, but didn't fix it.
So no matter what we do...paint job, tires, CD player, willpower, gasoline, yoga, climbing mountains, standing on our heads, whatever... any improvement will always be less than normal potential till the underlying malfuction is treated. Now, let's assume we've repaired that wire. We've found an AD that works and we can tolerate. The wire no longer misfires. Ok. Keep that electrical tape applied. Dont' want the same problem to return.
Now, let's take our nice normal car with its nice normal sparkplug wire and its nice new normal paint job for a nice normal drive on a nice normal country road and have a nice normal day.
Posted by dj on September 25, 1999, at 14:34:20
In reply to This Thing Called Depression, posted by Joe Mechanic on September 25, 1999, at 13:08:33
Interesing analogy JM. However I don't buy the arguement that ADs are the main answer and that once one has the proper tape/AD affixed that's the end of that task. Other possibilites exist which may not be so cleancut and clinical and widely accepted and I'll be dammed if I'm going to settle for a life of being held together by duct tape...I applaud those who look beyond ADs, while using them to get from point A to B in the interim...
> Credit is due all here who engage in good counsel, good lifestyle. These obvisouly bring improvement. A nice new paint job. But it doesn't repair that broken wire. Not in the eye, the bones, the kidneys, or....the brain. Credit is even more due those attempting to fix the core problem. Antidepressants. I applaud all here who recognize that the brain is an organ like any other, and when it malfunctions it manifests itself in behavior. I applaud the strength and determination of those who struggle with their drugs to eventually fix the real problem. ...
> So no matter what we do...paint job, tires, CD player, willpower, gasoline, yoga, climbing mountains, standing on our heads, whatever... any improvement will always be less than normal potential till the underlying malfuction is treated. Now, let's assume we've repaired that wire. We've found an AD that works and we can tolerate. The wire no longer misfires. Ok. Keep that electrical tape applied. Dont' want the same problem to return.
Posted by Noa on September 25, 1999, at 17:42:58
In reply to Re: This Thing Called Depression, posted by dj on September 25, 1999, at 14:34:20
Joe, thanks for sharing your analogy. It works for me...to a point. I think of ADs not as tape to fix the wire, but like adding more electricity to flow through the wire. The problem is that it might address the problem, but it also adds too much juice that causes other problems. I agree with you that people need to get with the idea that the brain can malfunction just like any other organ. But I don't write off therapy as you appear to do. Since the duct tape is possibly an adequate but not ideal solution, as you mentioned, we can't replace the wires, the therapy can help us to strengthen other working parts so that we are not taxing that poor fragile taped up wire so much. I think the brain is highly complex and the interrelationship between the equipment we are born with and how it develops as we grow and experience life, is so intertwined. For me, anyway, both psychopharm and psychotherapy are essential, as are other ways of shoring myself up.
Posted by Bob on September 25, 1999, at 19:38:18
In reply to Re: This Thing Called Depression, posted by Noa on September 25, 1999, at 17:42:58
JM,
I like how concrete that metaphor is. Like you said, some "normals" just don't get it -- even when it's staring them in the face, out of the eyes of a loved one. Thank goodness we hear from so many family and friends of folks with brain disorders here who *do* see things clearly on this board as well. It helps me see that those "normals" who hold stereotypical, bigoted, and/or uninformed beliefs are far from "normal" themselves.Of course, *any* analogy or metaphor has its weak points -- that's why they're analogies and metaphors, and not factual descriptions of events.
The thing I would like to add is not to sell ourselves short. "Normal" shouldn't be our sole (soul?) goal. Certainly, our disorders limit us in certain ways, but I honestly feel that for many, if not all, of us there is some compensation. We all have our gifts. Virtuosity in just about any field is often paired with some disorder -- I doubt there's any way to measure accurately, but I'd bet there's a higher percentage of gifted people with brain disorders than the middle of the "Bell Curve" has.
And I don't just mean book smarts or IQ. There's a psychologist named Howard Gardener who talks about "multiple intelligences" -- linguistic, musical, logical-mathematical, spatial, bodily-kinesthetic, inter-personal, and intra-personal. If anything, the extent of self-examination and discussion we all spend on issues like what is normal? what is the self? what does it mean to be happy or sad? -- they all contribute to a heightened sense of intrapersonal intelligence ... right in the very area where our disorders hurt us the most.
Isn't it ironic?
Bob
Posted by Bob on September 25, 1999, at 19:40:56
In reply to Re: This Thing Called Depression, posted by Bob on September 25, 1999, at 19:38:18
That's Howard Gardner. One reference for his work is the book Frames of Mind, if you're interested, but he has many others more recent (1983) than that.
b
Posted by Janice on September 26, 1999, at 0:01:50
In reply to oops!, posted by Bob on September 25, 1999, at 19:40:56
Hi everyone,
My ADD is running rampant tonight so this has got to be short, although I'd love to go into more detail if I had the patience tonight.
Bare with me because I know this is partly my frustration at having to live in their world talking, but sometimes (too many times actually) I think I'm living in a slow motion, mentally retarded world, and I'm the character in the middle of it that wants to SCREAM but can't get any noise out. And I can get so f***ing angry that they are so simple and so boring. and me, I have to live in their world and they are everywhere, and they bore me, and I can't connect to them, and I so rarely meet an interesting person. And when I do meet someone interesting, you guessed it, they always seem to have some mental illness.
Thanks for listening to me vent...it felt great! Mostly I am not angry, but simply envious of them. Janice
Posted by Noa on September 26, 1999, at 3:55:27
In reply to Normal is Sick?, posted by Janice on September 26, 1999, at 0:01:50
There is a British psychoanalyst named Christopher Bolas who coined the term "normotic" and I think he uses it to refer to abnormally normal people. Too normal. Just thought you'd like to know...
Posted by dj on September 26, 1999, at 8:41:57
In reply to Normal is Sick?, posted by Janice on September 26, 1999, at 0:01:50
And frankly I would give my right testicle to not have to concern myself with thinking about ADs & what may be normal or not...
> And when I do meet someone interesting, you guessed it, they always seem to have some mental illness.
>
> Thanks for listening to me vent...it felt great! Mostly I am not angry, but simply envious of them. Janice
Posted by Bob on September 26, 1999, at 16:26:43
In reply to Re: Normal is Sick?, posted by Noa on September 26, 1999, at 3:55:27
> There is a British psychoanalyst named Christopher Bolas who coined the term "normotic" and I think he uses it to refer to abnormally normal people. Too normal. Just thought you'd like to know...
Normotic?! I *LOVE* it! I had a housemate in grad school whose whole family is normotic. Parents met at UMich as undergrads, moved from Chicago to Ann Arbor once all three kids went to school there as well so the family could be together. Even after undergrad, when two of the kids were in grad school and living away from home, they'd still have Sunday dinner together. Meanwhile, my housemate is dating this extremely neurotic guy with an over-protective (even at 25) single mom. My housemate thought something was wrong with her because all of her best friends seemed to have some "personal" issues to deal with, particularly dysfunctional families, and she didn't. Her dad never even yelled at the kids -- she yelled at him once because in a situation that should have started an argument, he said "Well, let's sit down and talk about this ..."
Normotic ... LOL!
Bob
Posted by TV on September 26, 1999, at 21:29:53
In reply to This Thing Called Depression, posted by Joe Mechanic on September 25, 1999, at 13:08:33
I'm going to cut to the chase... I think Joe Mechanic is dead wrong regarding what depression "is". First of all, it isn't the brain that gets depressed, its the mind. Life experience (usually adverse) and personality are the building blocks of depression. The resulting pain and illness is caused by blockages of energy along the meridian paths in the body...and the mind. I do agree that something does happen to the hardware in the brain, but I don't believe it starts with a "brain gone wrong". I believe this to be true with all mental illness, just my view on the chicken vs. the egg theory of all mental illness. Some illness' are just more devestating and chronic than others. I do agree with Joe M's assessment of society in general. People that have never been depressed don't have a clue (generally speaking), and never will. And the reason society will never understand is because at the most basic level society is to blame for mental illness. You may ask how? The shame factor. The most difficult thing to
admit about mental illness is that you have a problem with your emotions. This is especially true in our wonderful country. In some wierd way I believe its one of the prices we pay to live "our way of life". We cover up how we truly feel about everything. Think about your everyday life...we all seem to be acting in a play. And some people fall victim in the play. The victim then begins to push his/her bad feelings even deeper, something thats never been proven to work. Pushing dirt under the rug just makes the rug lumpier. Pretty soon the mind has to be " cleansed".
Incidentally, I'm not against AD's and meds in general. I just classify them as painkillers, like alot of other medicines taken to treat a malady. Its just alot more difficult to make medicine that "fixes" a deficiency in your brain, when its your mind that needs attention, compassion, and healing.
One more thing. I really, really hate to say this...but, Joe's analogy is so well scripted that I suspect he (she?, can't take anything for granted, you know) is a representative from a drug company. I hope to God I'm wrong. There. I've come completely clean with my feelings. First time today...
> Your car engine is running rough (symbolically the same as depression). The cause is a crack in the outer layer of a sparkplug wire, allowing sparks to shoot out at random and never reach the sparkplug (symbolically the same as neurotransmitter malfunction in the brain). We can do many things to improve the car's performance. New spark plugs, adjust air/fuel mixture, adjust ignition timing (symbolically the same as counseling and psychotherapy). They help improve the rough-running engine, but they don't address the underlying deficiency. It is still below its "normal" potential. We can try a new paint job, shiney hubcaps, surround-sound CD player, plush seats, high-tech fuel additive (symbolically the same as improved lifestyle, improved coping abilities). But no matter how hard we push the gas pedal, the car is incapable of performing "normally". That damn wire.
>
> To fix it we need to replace the wire with a new one. Symbolically we can't replace parts of the brain. But we can work with them to repair them. We could wrap the cracked sparkplug wire with lots of electrical tape (symbolically the same as an antidepressant). Now the engine runs smooth. It is "normal". It is firing on all cylinders. All the other stuff...paint job, CD player, etc...is icing on the cake.
>
> Hi. My name is Joe Mechanic. I suffer from lifelong depression. I am amazed at how "normal" people think depression is just a matter of willpower, attitude, lifestyle, diet, pulling oneself together, getting a grip, coming to terms, getting over it. I use the malfunctioning auto example when needed to defend myself from the skeptical onslaught of psychotherapy proponents, pharmacology skeptics, disbelieving friends and family, and the "normal" who just don't, can't, get it. A typical response is dumbfounded silence. I can see in their faces that for the first time ever they can actually grasp an understanding of the physical nature of depression. The stigma and misunderstanding of the physical nature of depression is staggering.
>
> Why do so many think the brain is immune from malfunction? Kidneys malfunction. As do livers, thyroids, stomachs, skin, bones, blood, eyes,...and...brains. Can someone fix their depressed liver function with willpower? Would coming to terms with childhood trauma mend an eye? Why is it that the brain can supposedly be fixed with talk, attitude, exercise, lifestyle? Can't fix a kidney that way. Can't fix leukemia that way. Can't willpower a cancer away. I submit that our best efforts can certainly improve our faulty conditions. But unless we can fix the condition,improvement is limited and potential will remain below normal.
>
> Back to the car, we improved it greatly, but we didn't fix it. Till we mended the wire. Then it was "normal". What is normal? Not being chronically depressed is normal. Having a bad day when something bad happens is normal. Having a good day when something good happens is normal. Having endless bad days no matter what happens is not normal. When all the paint jobs and overhauls and new tires only marginally improve a car, we can restore it to normal by servicing the core problem. Fix the deficiency. A bad paint job didn't cause the engine to act depressed. It was just a slightly faulty electrical system. No matter what else we do, the car will always be less than it's normal potential till that damn faulty sparkplug wire is treated.
>
> Credit is due all here who engage in good counsel, good lifestyle. These obvisouly bring improvement. A nice new paint job. But it doesn't repair that broken wire. Not in the eye, the bones, the kidneys, or....the brain. Credit is even more due those attempting to fix the core problem. Antidepressants. I applaud all here who recognize that the brain is an organ like any other, and when it malfunctions it manifests itself in behavior. I applaud the strength and determination of those who struggle with their drugs to eventually fix the real problem. Sometimes it's not as easy as trying the first roll of electrical tape we can find. But the right kind of tape does exist. The wire can be fixed.
>
> What if we wrap electrical tape around a good sparkplug wire? Nothing. Nothing was wrong in the first place. What happens if someone "normal" takes an antidepressant? Nothing. Nothing was wrong in the first place. (Well, they would get some side effects probably) That antidepressants actually work is proof positive that a physical organic malfunction was at fault. Again, other things improved the condition, but didn't fix it.
>
> So no matter what we do...paint job, tires, CD player, willpower, gasoline, yoga, climbing mountains, standing on our heads, whatever... any improvement will always be less than normal potential till the underlying malfuction is treated. Now, let's assume we've repaired that wire. We've found an AD that works and we can tolerate. The wire no longer misfires. Ok. Keep that electrical tape applied. Dont' want the same problem to return.
>
> Now, let's take our nice normal car with its nice normal sparkplug wire and its nice new normal paint job for a nice normal drive on a nice normal country road and have a nice normal day.
Posted by dj on September 26, 1999, at 22:07:09
In reply to Re: This Thing Called Depression - Sorry Joe M, posted by TV on September 26, 1999, at 21:29:53
Nice 'wholistic' response to Joe's mechanistic view there, TV? So given your belief that depression is a blockage of energy how besides ADs does one unblock? And given that viewpoint isn't it the energy that is depressed or repressed and the mind/body which is the agent for this?
So how do we all rev our engines so that we can get full use of those meridians -- by expressing rather than repressing emotions...???
>.. I think Joe Mechanic is dead wrong regarding what depression "is". First of all, it isn't the brain that gets depressed, its the mind..The resulting pain and illness is caused by blockages of energy along the meridian paths in the body...and the mind
Posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 12:46:45
In reply to Re: This Thing Called Depression - Sorry Joe M, posted by dj on September 26, 1999, at 22:07:39
How do you distinguish between brain and mind?
Who's to say that mind is nothing other than an epiphenomenon (now there's one to look up in your dictionaries, kids!) of neurological function?
I think I'll stop with the "heresies" right there. ;^)
Bob
Posted by Adam on September 27, 1999, at 15:54:38
In reply to Re: Normal is Sick?, posted by Bob on September 26, 1999, at 16:26:43
I have always been rather intrigued by the notion that "normal" people are to a certain extent mildly
deluded. That is to say, they see good where often it does not exist. There are some who theorize that
the depressive mindset is actually more accurate. It is interesting to juxtapose this view with what
seems to prevade the theory of cognative-behavioral therapy (which I am a "fan" of), that the depressive
mindset is distorted, and that combatting these distortions (wheather they be the cause or effect of
depression I don't know) is a key element in curing depression. So which is it? I am often struck by
what I percieve as the level of self-deception the eternal optimist experiences, and yet the optimist seems
to have the ability to make their delusions a reality, and create good where it did not at first exist.
It is a true form of power. And to think, under many circumstances, when we assess our lives and the world
around us, when we assess ourselves and ponder our strengths and weaknesses, an "accurate" or "realistic"
view may be of little value. It does us no good to be right, it would seem. Strange that the depressed
find any value in their negative (perhaps realistic) convictions.So can this "normal" self-deception be learned? I hope so. Religious converstion/epiphany whatever you want
to call it makes me think this is at least possible. What greater form of self-deceptoin (read "faith") is
there than religious belief? What an unimaginable world it would be if psychoanlysis and therapy could achieve
the impact of spirituality.
> > There is a British psychoanalyst named Christopher Bolas who coined the term "normotic" and I think he uses it to refer to abnormally normal people. Too normal. Just thought you'd like to know...
>
> Normotic?! I *LOVE* it! I had a housemate in grad school whose whole family is normotic. Parents met at UMich as undergrads, moved from Chicago to Ann Arbor once all three kids went to school there as well so the family could be together. Even after undergrad, when two of the kids were in grad school and living away from home, they'd still have Sunday dinner together. Meanwhile, my housemate is dating this extremely neurotic guy with an over-protective (even at 25) single mom. My housemate thought something was wrong with her because all of her best friends seemed to have some "personal" issues to deal with, particularly dysfunctional families, and she didn't. Her dad never even yelled at the kids -- she yelled at him once because in a situation that should have started an argument, he said "Well, let's sit down and talk about this ..."
>
> Normotic ... LOL!
> Bob
Posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 17:13:41
In reply to Re: Normal is Sick?, posted by Adam on September 27, 1999, at 15:54:38
You did hit one big nail right on the head ... it's not theory -- there are studies (sorry, can't cite them right now and no access to PsychINFO doesn't help =^( ) that basically illustrate that depressed people have a more accurate assessment of the status quo than optimists. The thing is, we act upon our perception of reality, not some objective account of reality. Belief is more important that reality, if you want to account for why we do what we do. Those optimists who succeed, tho, aren't the ones who are all blue-sky and sunshine up the butt -- they're the ones looking just over the horizon. Thus, they take reasonable risks within their grasp, and they get to look a little bit further the next time. They put themselves in a place where they have reached an optimal sense of challenge, and that's one of the most motivating forces people can feel.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted by Noa on September 27, 1999, at 18:07:35
In reply to Re: Normal is Sick?, posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 17:13:41
I love the philosophical discussions.
As for the accuracy of the depressed vs. the "normal", think about people with anxiety disorders...Most people are deluded about the risks of everyday life. Each time we get into our cars, if we were to ponder what might happen to us on the road, we might become paralyzed and be unable to go anywhere. We have to delude ourselves in order to function. The anxious person is not seeing a distorted reality, but is just more open to perceiving the dangers in life than are most folks, because it is just too overwhelming to let ourselves be open to our fears all the time.
As for mind vs. brain...good questions. I don't think it has to be an either/or thing when it comes to the etiology of mental disorders. There is hardware (the brain, our physiological, genetic selves) and software (our experience, learning, etc.) It is complicated. For some of us, the dysfunction lies more prominently in the hardware problems and for others of us, more prominently in the software problems. Hardware problems can be of factory origin, or due to defects caused by injuries along the way. Software problems can be due to inherently bad programming, or a bad fit between the hardware and the programs, etc.
Ponder yet another metaphor and keep the discussion going....
Posted by Adam on September 27, 1999, at 20:20:14
In reply to Getting really philosophical--I love it, posted by Noa on September 27, 1999, at 18:07:35
I think a point people often miss, and I'm not sure why, but it is at the heart of the percieved
mind/brain dichotomy, is that there is no real difference between "software" and "hardware" when
you are talking about the human brain. There can be endogenous problems, but experience does
nothing less than alter the structure of the brain at some level, and, ulike a program, you can't
just "reboot" when things go awry. The changes are lasting, and maybe permanent, which is why childhood
experiences matter at all in the etiology of depression. To what extent the endogenous and exogenous
factors contribute, of course, is still the big question.From my own personal experience (n=1, FWIW), I would imagine that genetics play a major role. I have a
feeling that a predisposition coupled with some rather unfortunate childhood experiences have caused
what has been manifested to be manifested. I'm quite convinced that had my childhood been different/
less rife with difficulties, my depression would not have been as severe as it has been, but perhaps
I would have been somewhat depressive even under the best of circumstances. I'd like to think that
hard work/therapy can address some aspects of the problem, you know, compensation for some of the
bad programming, and that medications can help with the rest.
> I love the philosophical discussions.
>
> As for the accuracy of the depressed vs. the "normal", think about people with anxiety disorders...Most people are deluded about the risks of everyday life. Each time we get into our cars, if we were to ponder what might happen to us on the road, we might become paralyzed and be unable to go anywhere. We have to delude ourselves in order to function. The anxious person is not seeing a distorted reality, but is just more open to perceiving the dangers in life than are most folks, because it is just too overwhelming to let ourselves be open to our fears all the time.
>
> As for mind vs. brain...good questions. I don't think it has to be an either/or thing when it comes to the etiology of mental disorders. There is hardware (the brain, our physiological, genetic selves) and software (our experience, learning, etc.) It is complicated. For some of us, the dysfunction lies more prominently in the hardware problems and for others of us, more prominently in the software problems. Hardware problems can be of factory origin, or due to defects caused by injuries along the way. Software problems can be due to inherently bad programming, or a bad fit between the hardware and the programs, etc.
>
> Ponder yet another metaphor and keep the discussion going....
Posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 23:10:14
In reply to Re: Getting really philosophical--I love it, posted by Adam on September 27, 1999, at 20:20:14
As a psychologist who researches how people learn, I love the computer metaphor. When you teach it to undergrads (or grads, for that matter) who have never been all that reflective about mind, they typically react in horror -- GASP!! HOW could you even THINK of saying our MINDS work like a machine?
Then I tell them they've got it backwards -- its not that our minds work like computers, but that we have designed computers to work according to models of the mind that were technologically within our grasp.
There's another chicken/egg one for ya.
Because of that ontological (ooh! gotta love those eight-bit (ooh! a pun within a wisecrack ... 3D humor) philosophic words, doncha Noa ;^) quandry, the mind/computer metaphor can actually be stretched a good long way without showing too much stress. Cool.
Cheers,
Bob
Posted by Noa on September 28, 1999, at 6:50:49
In reply to Re: Getting really philosophical--I love it, posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 23:10:14
Adam, excellent point about how the software changes the hardware. Yes, it is like a computer that actually morphs with experience. Makes for a good science fiction thriller plot....Actually at times I do feel like I am battling my own "Hal".
Bob, I gotta tell ya--I'm still working on the puns. I think you might be a bit out of my league in the academic/intellectual department.
Posted by dj on September 28, 1999, at 19:31:00
In reply to Re: Getting really philosophical--I love it, posted by Noa on September 28, 1999, at 6:50:49
Forget about Joe's mechanical analogy and go with the computer idiom cuz there is a deeper level of complexity there and more things that can go wrong in one's hardware/software and programming, all that may result in a malfunctioning system. Dysthamia might better bye compared with Win'95 when it goes into safe mode and you can only access certain programs. And major depression is more akin to what's called the 'blue screen of death' which is the result of an unstable NT (Microsoft's New Technology ie. -- more robust indistrial strength software) platform gltiching out and freezing up.
> Adam, excellent point about how the software changes the hardware. Yes, it is like a computer that actually morphs with experience.
Posted by Bob on September 29, 1999, at 10:11:33
In reply to Re: Keeping with the computer analogy.., posted by dj on September 28, 1999, at 19:31:00
If depression is the Blue Screen o' Death, why can't anybody out there come up with a corresponding Three Finger Salute? Pleeeeezzzz!!
Posted by TV on September 30, 1999, at 20:21:19
In reply to Hasn't someone already blamed this all on Descarte, posted by Bob on September 27, 1999, at 12:46:45
> How do you distinguish between brain and mind?
>
> Who's to say that mind is nothing other than an epiphenomenon (now there's one to look up in your dictionaries, kids!) of neurological function?
>
> I think I'll stop with the "heresies" right there. ;^)
> BobInteresting...how does one distinguish between what is brain vs. mind? I often wonder the same thing myself. Well...let me pose another question. Consider the sugar pill/placebo effect. How is it that people report remission in their depressive symptoms after taking a sugar pill? Or report an increase/decrease in side effects? Did the brain produce a mystical increase or decrease in seritonin, etc? Or how is it when we get embarrassed (sp?) our face may turn red? Or when we get angry? There are thousands of states of mind and emotion that produce a physical reaction. Thats my take on depression. Serious emotion producing a painful mind/body reaction. I wish I spent as much energy trying to understand my inner self as I do trying to find a mind numbing medication. But that would be too painful.
By the way...I've recently replaced the expression "I was worried sick about you" with "I was so worried I felt my seritonin drop"...cracks everyone up!
TV (Tom V)
Posted by Noa on September 30, 1999, at 21:16:14
In reply to Brain vs. Mind - Descarte is to blame, posted by TV on September 30, 1999, at 20:21:19
Have you read anything by Donald Nathanson? He focuses on affect and the mind-body connection. Very interesting stuff. Has a great website at Behavior online. THere is a forum that he moderates on affects. He is the director of the Sylvan Tomkins Institute in Philly. TOmkins came up with the idea of innate affects, separate from the psychoanalytic concept of drives. Thought you might be interested.
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