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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by musky on April 18, 2006, at 0:39:36
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by little mommy on April 18, 2006, at 0:22:53
>
Hello little mommyYes, keep trying.. and of course the dr. always blames the patient for the return of the anxiety. I still believe it is w/d symptoms.
and i dont think you are too young at 43 to be going through PRE menopausal symptoms.. If your dr. was up on their definition of premenopausal that is the same as perimenopause, and it can be 8-10yrs (as stated in all the literature) BEFORE actual menopause which occurs typically around 50-55 avg. therefore you take off 8-10yrs and guess what you end up with ages 42-45.
Im 45 and i believe alot of my tension /anxiety was starting at 43 offand on... and these a/d just made things a whole lot worse!!!good for you to seek a second opinion with a naturpath...
It seems that all these docs are doing is just one pill after another and not fixing the problemhang in there
musky
Hello, all
>
> Just to let you know that I stopped the remeron back at the end of February and as each week passed, more and more anxiety, panic and insomnia started. I went back to the doctor and he said that it wasn't remeron withdrawal but my old symptoms coming back. I not sure I agree. He gave me a sleep aid (same stuff as Lunesta) so that I could at least get a good nights sleep which he hoped would help me deal with the sypmtoms. Well, I slept but I still woke up with panic and anxiety. I gave in a few nights ago and went back to 7.5 mg of remeron as I just couldn't take it anymore. I can understand why some people would consider suicide. I want to live!!! but this is awful. I never had problems to this degree, with depression, anxiety, etc. up until last year. I have been reading a lot about pre menopause and most of my symptoms are premenopause symptoms but the doctor says I am too young (I'm 43). I am going to see a Naturopath in a couple of weeks as I want a different option. For now the 7.5 of remeron and the 10 mg of paxil are keeping me on an even keel and my appetite is under control. As I read all of the postings to this thread, I know that, at least, I am not alone in this struggle. I wish each and everyone of you all the best in your quest to rid yourselves of remeron like I will try again. Thanks for letting me vent.
>
> Little Mommy
Posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:25:27
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:37:29
What is herbal relax? What does it have in it and where can I get it? Thank you
johnnhy
Posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:28:46
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:51:12
thank you for the advice.
I will limit working out to just walking a lot because I don't want to "charge" my body too much. I want it to have the time and energy to heal while tapering. I plan to increase excercise after I have been off and am stable but that is just me though.
Posted by jules354 on April 19, 2006, at 12:04:43
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:45:26
thanks musky! your posts have been wonderful for me as well.
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:20:33
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:25:27
>hi Johnny:
Herbal relax is a TCM (traditional chinese medicine) product which contains the following herbs:
Poria(which builds the blood, gives more energy)
Rehmannia
Ginseng
Danggui
Schisandra
Asparagus Root
Scrophularia
Salvia
Platycodon
Biota Seed(acts as a detox agent)
Polygala
Ophiopogon Root
ZizphusThis may sound strange, but these are all completely safe.. I have been seeing this herbalist/acupunturist.He is an expert in this field and an awsome traditonal chinese medicine doc!
I have taken these for months and absolutely no side effects... They have been really helpful in off setting the anxiety and figityness from the Remeron.
They DO NOT cross react with Remeron.. I can attest to that.. completely safe...and natural
I have been slowly weaning off these , or cutting back( you dont really have to wean, they are natural), as I have been tapering off the Remeron.
You can purchase them at most health food stores. At least here in Canada..
They are a HAN's HERBAL REMEDIES productthey cost about $20.00 cnd and this lasts me about a month.. pretty reasonable considering the cost of some other stuff out there and it truly has helped with the side effects of the remeron.
Hope this helpsMusky
What is herbal relax? What does it have in it and where can I get it? Thank you
>
> johnnhy
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:24:58
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:28:46
>
Dont worry about exercising or charging your body too much... you actually want to work up a Sweat cause this helps get rid of the drug more efficiently.. Also it will offset the depression if it creeps up during w/d..
I have been exercising regularly now so that this is a habit already in place after im completely off the remeron. That way if i do have trouble im not flittering around trying to develop an exercise routine at the last minute or when i feel crappy.
But its up to you... walking ist still something, you are still getting some benefits from this and it distracts the mind..musky
thank you for the advice.
>
> I will limit working out to just walking a lot because I don't want to "charge" my body too much. I want it to have the time and energy to heal while tapering. I plan to increase excercise after I have been off and am stable but that is just me though.
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:32:19
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by jules354 on April 19, 2006, at 12:04:43
> np jules... just hope i can maintain my attitude once im completely off the Remeron... which is in about a month.
Saw my acupuncturist today and discussed the "plan" again for when im completlely off.
He will be ready to treat me more often(even every day)if the w/d gets too rough.
he is so amazing.. he is working with people that are kicking street drugs as well as others getting off a/d that have w/d problems.
He told me one patient of his had w/d so bad(not sure from what) that they were coming 2x/day for acupuncture because their panic was so bad.. but He has got them through it .. and the best part was that there was NO MEDS INVOLVED!!!!Im am really fortuate I have support like his.
He told me I may sail though with the w/d or have a rough time.. only time will tellkinda getting a little nervous as the date gets closer, but im trying to keep a positive attitude and the fact that I have tapered EVER SO SLOWLY , hopefully will help
Take Care
Muskythanks musky! your posts have been wonderful for me as well.
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 11:38:33
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:32:19
I should have asked this before but I went off remeron for 8-10 days last November and the insomnia was so bad I went back on 7.5. Well, I felt much WORSE going back on but I sleep ok. It's as if the heavy head "sponge brain" is really deep in my head. It gives me headaches too. I have had some anxiety too which was absent for almost 2 years, except when weaning meds. Anybody else feel this way?
I wondered if it is just the old anxiety/depression returning but something doesn't sit right with that since when I was off for that short time I felt better but had trouble sleeping. I didn't have much anxiety when off either. I felt "real" when off and my body was craving input because it had been so long. Does any of this ring true for you all? Thank you.
johnnyj
We shall defeat the remeron!
Posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:30:01
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:28:46
walking is so good for you. keep doing it!
i'm sorry to hear your head stuff is still so hard. was it a symptom you had before with your depression?
take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:34:21
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:32:19
glacial pace. gotta go slowly and let your body heal slowly, that's what i believe. i tapered off for a year and a half! :)
sounds like you found an amazing acupuncturist. that's so great.
take care,
jules
Posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:30:01
No, I can't remember having this sponge brain before. I think the heavy head stuff is remeron. Other people have mentioned it to. I don't have much more time to wait before I drop it. I may drop to 3.75 mg this weekend. I want to get off so bad.
Posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
Hey guys, it's really supporting too me knowing their are many others wanting too get of these a/d's and sharing experiences. I'm just about too lower my 30mg remeron, too 15mg. How long do you think i should stick with the 15 for, b4 lowering again?
I've suffered with the spongy head symptoms, and groggy feeling which im 100% sure is the remeron. It's like it's masking and changing your normal state of mind. I find when im like this a nice 30-40 min jog, or time on the exercise bike helps, and building up a sweat makes me feel a lot clearer, and less heavy headed.
Hope your all feeling good.....
Take it easy. Cashy72
Posted by anahata31 on April 21, 2006, at 8:20:54
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
Hi Cashy,
Good luck tapering the Remeron - I can tell you that for me, it now feels much better at 3mg, as far as the foggy-head feeling is concerned. I've tapered down last week, from 7.5 mg, and intend to stay on 3 mg for a week or two, then I'll try to cut down the pill even more (if that's possible) for a couple more weeks, and stop. If you go down from 30 to 15mg, then from 15 to 7.5, I suggest you stick with your new dosing for at *least* a month, then it's up to you... But going as slow as possible is of course the best way to avoid withdrawals.
I am surprised as to how smooth-sailing it is for me right now...Perhaps it is springtime, and more daylight, but what really helps me is exercice, walking especially, in the sun, with my walkman on. I also eat lots of fruits and vegetables and take a multivitamin, and I try to not stress too much if I don't sleep as much as I used to. The idea of being soon free from Remeron gives me a newfound energy, and in that sense, the withdrawal symptoms (a bit of nausea, dizzyness and less appetite) are to me a sign of healing, something that leads me to freedom.
Another positive side-effect is I don't get so much these exhausting and intense dreams - for some funny reason, I thought I would miss that, but so far I don't. Talking to a good friend, or to your psychologist or doctor, or just writing a journal and always remembering the reasons you want to stop, will help you stay focussed on your goal.
Hang in there, and best of luck,
Nathalie
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:08:51
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
i wonder if like othe remeron side effects the lower dose is actually making it worse? even if it's a w/d effect...i hope you can get off it soon and without much trouble...
take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:13:51
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
hey cashy,
in my experience, going slow is the way to go. i'd give it at least a month if not even longer on the 15mg. the way my doctor described it was basically giving your body the amount of time you'd give it on a new increased dose of something to see how your depressiion symptoms are.
i agree about the exercise. yoga and relaxation methods have helped me a lot too.
take care,
jules
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » cashy72, posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:13:51
> the way my doctor described it was basically giving your body the amount of time you'd give it on a new increased dose of something to see how your depressiion symptoms are.
I agree with your doctor's abstraction. However, the time necessary to allow the brain to adapt is probably closer to 2 weeks. If a dosage decrease is going to produce withdrawal symptoms, it will do so regardless of the time allowed to elapse beyond this 2-week period. The key is to attempt to reduce the dosage by an amount small enough to prevent an intense withdrawal syndrome that lasts for weeks. I think it is better to think in terms of percentage reductions than absolute amounts. The percentage difference between 7.5mg and 3.75mg is as large as the percentage difference between 30mg and 15mg. 50% is a big number. It might be better to reduce by 25% every 2 weeks or even 10% every week. I guess the bottom line is to allow your body to tell you how large a dosage decrease is comfortable and how long it takes for the brain to stabilize.
While there is nothing counterproductive with waiting months between dosage decreases, I don't think it is necessary.
- Scott
Posted by johnnyj on April 22, 2006, at 8:28:36
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
Hi Scott,
When I lowered my benzo dose I had withdrawal for two weeks and then on the last dose for one month. I read a decent book about withdrawal last year and it said after your last symptoms you should wait a week for the brain to "heal" a tad more.
IMHO, the biggest problem with remeron is the more sedating it is a lower doses. For me, this sedating effect actually manifests itself in terms of heavy head/headache and it makes me feel more depressed. My hope is that this is only true to certain point(dose). For example, down to 7.5 MAY be more sedating but if you cut that down to 3.75 maybe that dose will have less "sponge brain" effects. I just get this feeling that is the case with remeron.
Also, it becomes impossible to cut 10% of a 7.5 mg tablet or Sol-tab. I may mix mine in water and use a syringe that my pharmacist gave me to dose it out. I can cut it by 20% or so. I may just go from 7.5 to 3.75 just because I want to taper a little quicker though. I have found that the last dose you go from to zero is the hardest. With my benzo that was certainly the case. I was very depressed for a month after I stopped my benzo. But, after about a month in a day or two things dramatically improved. Our bodies are very interesting.
Peace
johnnyj
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 9:23:54
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 22, 2006, at 8:28:36
Hi.
> I read a decent book about withdrawal last year and it said after your last symptoms you should wait a week for the brain to "heal" a tad more.
That sounds very reasonable. I'll remember to do that for myself should I find myself in such a predicament.
By the way, how would you describe "sponge brain"? I was never on Remeron long enough find out.
You know, I never realized how difficult it was to discontinue Remeron until these threads appeared. Everyone focuses so much on SRI drugs. I guess Remeron gets no respect.
Good luck. I hope you can get clean without too much more discomfort.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 12:12:10
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
Thanks Scott, yeah I forgot to mention that I had a lot of life events going on which made us decide to go super slowly and cautiously. (one period was 6+ months before the next reduction.) Each reduction was 50%. In hindsight it probably wouldn't have been a bad idea to do 25% as you suggest.
take care,
jules
Posted by SandyWeb on April 22, 2006, at 18:00:44
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 12:12:10
My experience with Remeron seems a bit different from yours. I've been on 45mg daily for almost 2 years for anxiety and a suicide attempt. I really had a lot of success with it, and I would still be on it except for the massive weight gain. The "Remeron Hunger". I gained over 50 pounds in those 2 years. I was concerned about diabetes, and even though Topamax was a wonder drug and stopped the hunger and made me lose lots of weight, the med was not approved for me due to not being an epileptic....and I had to give it up because I couldn't afford it. Without the Topamax, I knew the "Remeron Hunger" would return. And I was fitting into my regular clothes again!!! Do you know how wonderful that is?
I quit both Topamax (225 mg daily) and Remeron (45 mg daily) cold-turkey. I had to. I was out of Topamax, and I COULD NOT allow the hunger to come back. I quit both these meds, which I loved both of them, on April 13th.....10 days ago. I'm fine. I had a little ringing in my ears, and I can't say that anything more happened....other than I still do not have an appetite. I'm still losing weight, which is fine with me. I know that I'll start getting hungry one day.
So....it CAN be done. I really thought I was going to have w/d problems with the Remeron because it is such a powerful med. But nothing. I feel fine. So some people may need to taper in order to get off the med, and some people may be able to just plain quit. I guess it all depends on individual body chemistry. Maybe try a cold-turkey quit. You may be surprised. But if w/d symptoms are a real factor, then most definately go to a taper.
I still use 100 mg Seroquel to help me sleep at night, so I'm not missing any shut-eye from the lack of Remeron. I use Inderal LA 80 mg twice per day to keep the adrenaline from flooding my heart and increasing my chances of a panic attack (plus keeps my BP and HR at a steady rhythum). And I have Klonopin for my pre-existing social anxiety. I've been on these meds basically as long as the Remeron; the Klonopin is a replacement for Ativan, which I didn't like.
I felt normal on Remeron. If not for the weight gain, I would have stayed on it because it wasn't doing any harm and I didn't know what to expect if I went off it. But again...I'm fine. A great deal of life stressors right now (oh boy!!!), but everything is coming along as expected. Some tears, some anxiety....but to be expected for what is happening right now in my life.
I wish you all the best in your tapering or cold-turkey. I guess I've just been lucky. And I absolutely LOVE not having so many pills to take anymore!!!!!!!
Good luck to you all!
Sandy
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:25:53
In reply to Anyone feel this way on remeron?, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 11:38:33
>Hello Johnny:
Yes some of this rings true.. Ive had so much agitation with being on Remeron... more anxiousness and sponge brain feeling too.
The agitation has improved since taking herbal relax.. and also since i have been weaning off the remeron it has made a difference as well.
I NEVER had these problems with agitation before when not on medication.good luck
Yes we shall beat this remeron crap
Musky
I should have asked this before but I went off remeron for 8-10 days last November and the insomnia was so bad I went back on 7.5. Well, I felt much WORSE going back on but I sleep ok. It's as if the heavy head "sponge brain" is really deep in my head. It gives me headaches too. I have had some anxiety too which was absent for almost 2 years, except when weaning meds. Anybody else feel this way?
>
> I wondered if it is just the old anxiety/depression returning but something doesn't sit right with that since when I was off for that short time I felt better but had trouble sleeping. I didn't have much anxiety when off either. I felt "real" when off and my body was craving input because it had been so long. Does any of this ring true for you all? Thank you.
>
> johnnyj
>
> We shall defeat the remeron!
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:29:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:30:01
>Nope, never had this head stuff going on until I started The Remeron..
The only time i was in a depressed mode was when I couldnt work because of chronic neck issues/dizzyness... and that was to be expected considering my situation... I have since been getting proper treatment to adress my neck problem.. and It WASNT the meds that helped my neck it was my chiropractor and deep tissue massage that has turned this around..
later
Muskywalking is so good for you. keep doing it!
>
> i'm sorry to hear your head stuff is still so hard. was it a symptom you had before with your depression?
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by musky on April 24, 2006, at 0:37:32
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
> Hey Cashy:
I dont mean to sound too cautious , but I have been weaning very slowly...(over a year now).. I would suggest you go from 30mg to 25 mg,,, if you have a pill cutter, thats what I have used. I cut the half of the 30mg in quarters.. or for example if you have the 30mg is as one pill(as mine is)I would cut that in half giving me 15mg sizes.. then I would cut one of the 15mg sizes in half giving you 2x7.5mg.. then take one 15mg size plus one of the 7.5mg size which equals roughly 25mg or 22.5mg.. then stay at this dosage until stable.. for me it took about 2-3months , then I would cut back another 10% again. What i mean by 10% is from the original dosage you were on..
For me it was about 4.5mg each time I would reduce as I was originally on 45mg..Good luck
be patient... trust me its easier.Musky
Hey guys, it's really supporting too me knowing their are many others wanting too get of these a/d's and sharing experiences. I'm just about too lower my 30mg remeron, too 15mg. How long do you think i should stick with the 15 for, b4 lowering again?
> I've suffered with the spongy head symptoms, and groggy feeling which im 100% sure is the remeron. It's like it's masking and changing your normal state of mind. I find when im like this a nice 30-40 min jog, or time on the exercise bike helps, and building up a sweat makes me feel a lot clearer, and less heavy headed.
> Hope your all feeling good.....
> Take it easy. Cashy72
Posted by johnnyj on April 24, 2006, at 14:27:53
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 9:23:54
Sponge brain is like the heaviness a sponge gets when it is soaked to the core. I have a constant pressure in my forehead and it is followed by a numb or dumb feeling. My thinking is somewhat slow and I have trouble reading or seeing everything. I find myself skipping lines or not really seeing everything when I read. Wicked drug and in a day or two I go from 7.5 to 3.75. I have to be free of this drug.
johnnyj
Posted by cashy72 on April 25, 2006, at 2:54:50
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 24, 2006, at 14:27:53
Hey Johnny, yeah i feel exactly the same about this as you do. Same kinda feelings, or lack of them! Good luck with the 3.75mg, who'll be fine mate... stick with it, and in a few weeks you can kick this stuff.
Take it easy.
cashy72
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