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Posted by jules354 on April 17, 2006, at 20:40:20
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by pinkeetoz on April 17, 2006, at 15:39:25
so sorry to hear you're still having a rough time. hang in there. i'll be thinking of you.
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:37:29
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by anahata31 on April 14, 2006, at 10:44:36
>hello nathalie:
Yes I understand your fear of insomnia returning, after stopping the remeron. What you have to remember is that is probably only temporrary.
No one ever died from lack of sleep (lol). There are so many OTHER ways to combat insomnia.
I too was getting sleep on remeron, but the vivid dreams are just not right as far as Im concerned.
And I also have been numbed out by this drug.
For me what has helped the very most with insomnia is acupuncture.. It truly balances out your system. I have also been taking herbal relax. Not as much anymore since Ive been weaning off the Remeron myself.. Also try to exercise regularly. I know that when I would go for a good swim in the evenings I would have a good sleep as well.
The only thing Remeron did for me was make me numb. Not my usual excited self.. Personally I would much rather have some anxiety and nervousnes and manage this my way than to have these weird frigtening dreams every night and not show any excitement for things.
Keep trying and dont give up.... thats my suggestion.Musky
Hi there! It's great to find this thread.
>
> I've been on 7.5 mg Remeron for 9 months - I've been an anxious insomniac for pretty much all my life, and never cared much for food, but Remeron changed me. I've never touched antidepressants before, but have tried so many different sleeping pills, leading to a benzo addiction that lasted a few years. My doctor prescribed me low-dose Remeron to help me sleep, and quit using benzodiazepines. Well, it worked. The sleep is good, and my appetite is good (gained 10 pounds in 9 months, but have to be careful of what I eat, which is a change for me).
>
> But I've also noticed a change in my personality -- I wouldn't say I am less anxious, or more tired, it's just a general sense of "who cares", a numbness that makes me just less fun to be around, less talkative, less enthusiastic about interaction with others. So I decided to stop, a few months ago, slowly tapering down to 3 mg, then off... And it was awful, flu-like symptoms, nausea, and complete insomnia. So here I am again, back on 7.5 mg, hoping to gather the courage to stop for good.
>
> I want to be my old enthusiastic self again, and I want to be off Remeron so bad, but the one thing that holds me back is the insomnia...Despite all the side-effects of this drug, I have found a quality of sleep that I never had before (though it isn't as good as during the first few months on it), and it causes me sadness and distress to leave that weird, deep, vivid Remeron sleep behind, especially since I don't want to touch sleeping pills ever again.
>
> So, I don't know...I know what I have to do, yet it kind of scares me, and it's good to read about other people's experience.
>
> Thanks!
> Nathalie
>
Posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:45:26
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » anahata31, posted by jules354 on April 15, 2006, at 21:03:25
>
Hi jules:I agree with your comment.. about staying on an a/d just to avoid withdrawl symptoms.. its simply not healthy.
I have been kinda more down lately,, dont know if now the body is trying to readjust to the 2mg im on.. Ive been at this dosage for just over 2months.
and from what I remember when I quit the amytriptylene way back when, I didnt get wierd until 3months later.
But I am holding my own so far.
these posts help, especially yours
Great that you are off of remeron now for 6 weeks.
I too had terrible wt gain, and I find I was just gorging and craving sweets all the time.. I gained 45 lbs, very unhealthy bloated wt gain, I was even puffy in my face.. It was awful. I knew it was not normal, especially for me who was alway around 110lbs and never had a wt problem. on remeron I went up to 145lbs!!! Im now down to 124lbs since tapering.. And I would rather have a normal apetite than stupid cravings. I found I have lost the true enjoyment of food and the "good appetite feeling" I use to get before being on remeron.musky
hi nathalie, i do miss that dreamy deep rem(eron) sleep too after going of it totally almost 6wks ago now. and i also liked that it gave me an appetite (tho didn't always love the weight i gained). i miss that too. i enjoyed food a lot on it. i don't think i really felt like it changed my personality but my mood has been definitely different since i stopped taking it - and i'm curious to see how things will even out eventually.
>
> what does your dr say about the personality thing? it's pretty common on ad's, right? i mean for people to feel not themselves on them.
>
> you probably know this but the side effects of withdrawal aren't necessarily a reason to stay on remeron...if you feel like you could ride out the withdrawal, feel like your old self and not have problems w/ sleeping...but i guess it's a balance, deciding whether the sacrifices are worth the benefits of the drug.
>
> sorry i'm just thinking out loud. i'm sure you've thought about all this quite a lot!
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:51:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » anahata31, posted by johnnyj on April 16, 2006, at 21:49:42
> Hey johnny:
I can relate to your bland feeling.. I too get this .. and sponge brain.. Today especially at work I was like in a dream like cloudy state all day... just felt alien... I hate that.. Never had this stuff happening to me until I went on the remeon.
As for your fears about nausea.. try gingerale.. worked wonders for me as I would taper... I would get some w/d symptoms every time i lowered the dose,, I just sipped on ginger ale all day(preferably flat- no bubbles), and It really works!! Got me through. Also try not to limit your options to just sleeping pills for your insomnia.. try herbs, or acupuncture or a good work out.. remember sleeping pills are addictive. and they just mask the problem , not get rid of it.hang in
muskyHello, thank you for posting your experiences on remeron.
>
> Do you think remeron is better than a sleeping pill? I am on the same 7.5mg dose as you. I will start to wean off in a week or so. Not sure if I should quit cold turkey or taper. The reason being is remeron is more sedating at lower doese so I wonder if the "sponge brain" stuff will be worse? Don't know for sure what to do.
>
> I will have some sleep meds for a back up when I go off. All I know is this med numbs me too. For example, if I drop something like a piece of paper on the floor at work I just don't want to pick it up. I just don't care. Today, was not good for me as I just felt bland. I can't stay like this as it is not a way to live but do I need another drug? I hope not as I want to kick the habit and be done with it. I tried once before to get off and the nausea was terrible and insomnia. I hope to do better this time.
>
> johnnyj
Posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:59:03
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by pinkeetoz on April 17, 2006, at 15:39:25
>Hey pinketoz:
Good to hear from you.
I think that its probably the benzo thats causing more depressed feelings. At least thats what happened to me when I was taking them for anxiety 2yrs ago.. I was crying all the time.. Good for you being off the remeron.. nasty stuff if you ask me..
try to deal with anxiety on your own if you can. I know its hard but practice makes perfect.. I find distraction of any kind really helps..
Musky
Hi guys, haven't posted in a while. Totally done with remeron. Still doing the lexapro at 20mg daily and have been for the last three weeks. I feel like the lexapro is doing nothing. I am still on klonopin (benzo). It stops the anxiety, but, I can't help but wonder if it's causing my severe depression. Wouldn't it seem that the lexapro should have kicked in by now? Good luck guys, pinkeetoz
Posted by little mommy on April 18, 2006, at 0:22:53
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:59:03
Hello, all
Just to let you know that I stopped the remeron back at the end of February and as each week passed, more and more anxiety, panic and insomnia started. I went back to the doctor and he said that it wasn't remeron withdrawal but my old symptoms coming back. I not sure I agree. He gave me a sleep aid (same stuff as Lunesta) so that I could at least get a good nights sleep which he hoped would help me deal with the sypmtoms. Well, I slept but I still woke up with panic and anxiety. I gave in a few nights ago and went back to 7.5 mg of remeron as I just couldn't take it anymore. I can understand why some people would consider suicide. I want to live!!! but this is awful. I never had problems to this degree, with depression, anxiety, etc. up until last year. I have been reading a lot about pre menopause and most of my symptoms are premenopause symptoms but the doctor says I am too young (I'm 43). I am going to see a Naturopath in a couple of weeks as I want a different option. For now the 7.5 of remeron and the 10 mg of paxil are keeping me on an even keel and my appetite is under control. As I read all of the postings to this thread, I know that, at least, I am not alone in this struggle. I wish each and everyone of you all the best in your quest to rid yourselves of remeron like I will try again. Thanks for letting me vent.
Little Mommy
Posted by musky on April 18, 2006, at 0:39:36
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by little mommy on April 18, 2006, at 0:22:53
>
Hello little mommyYes, keep trying.. and of course the dr. always blames the patient for the return of the anxiety. I still believe it is w/d symptoms.
and i dont think you are too young at 43 to be going through PRE menopausal symptoms.. If your dr. was up on their definition of premenopausal that is the same as perimenopause, and it can be 8-10yrs (as stated in all the literature) BEFORE actual menopause which occurs typically around 50-55 avg. therefore you take off 8-10yrs and guess what you end up with ages 42-45.
Im 45 and i believe alot of my tension /anxiety was starting at 43 offand on... and these a/d just made things a whole lot worse!!!good for you to seek a second opinion with a naturpath...
It seems that all these docs are doing is just one pill after another and not fixing the problemhang in there
musky
Hello, all
>
> Just to let you know that I stopped the remeron back at the end of February and as each week passed, more and more anxiety, panic and insomnia started. I went back to the doctor and he said that it wasn't remeron withdrawal but my old symptoms coming back. I not sure I agree. He gave me a sleep aid (same stuff as Lunesta) so that I could at least get a good nights sleep which he hoped would help me deal with the sypmtoms. Well, I slept but I still woke up with panic and anxiety. I gave in a few nights ago and went back to 7.5 mg of remeron as I just couldn't take it anymore. I can understand why some people would consider suicide. I want to live!!! but this is awful. I never had problems to this degree, with depression, anxiety, etc. up until last year. I have been reading a lot about pre menopause and most of my symptoms are premenopause symptoms but the doctor says I am too young (I'm 43). I am going to see a Naturopath in a couple of weeks as I want a different option. For now the 7.5 of remeron and the 10 mg of paxil are keeping me on an even keel and my appetite is under control. As I read all of the postings to this thread, I know that, at least, I am not alone in this struggle. I wish each and everyone of you all the best in your quest to rid yourselves of remeron like I will try again. Thanks for letting me vent.
>
> Little Mommy
Posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:25:27
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:37:29
What is herbal relax? What does it have in it and where can I get it? Thank you
johnnhy
Posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:28:46
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:51:12
thank you for the advice.
I will limit working out to just walking a lot because I don't want to "charge" my body too much. I want it to have the time and energy to heal while tapering. I plan to increase excercise after I have been off and am stable but that is just me though.
Posted by jules354 on April 19, 2006, at 12:04:43
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 17, 2006, at 21:45:26
thanks musky! your posts have been wonderful for me as well.
take care,
jules
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:20:33
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:25:27
>hi Johnny:
Herbal relax is a TCM (traditional chinese medicine) product which contains the following herbs:
Poria(which builds the blood, gives more energy)
Rehmannia
Ginseng
Danggui
Schisandra
Asparagus Root
Scrophularia
Salvia
Platycodon
Biota Seed(acts as a detox agent)
Polygala
Ophiopogon Root
ZizphusThis may sound strange, but these are all completely safe.. I have been seeing this herbalist/acupunturist.He is an expert in this field and an awsome traditonal chinese medicine doc!
I have taken these for months and absolutely no side effects... They have been really helpful in off setting the anxiety and figityness from the Remeron.
They DO NOT cross react with Remeron.. I can attest to that.. completely safe...and natural
I have been slowly weaning off these , or cutting back( you dont really have to wean, they are natural), as I have been tapering off the Remeron.
You can purchase them at most health food stores. At least here in Canada..
They are a HAN's HERBAL REMEDIES productthey cost about $20.00 cnd and this lasts me about a month.. pretty reasonable considering the cost of some other stuff out there and it truly has helped with the side effects of the remeron.
Hope this helpsMusky
What is herbal relax? What does it have in it and where can I get it? Thank you
>
> johnnhy
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:24:58
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:28:46
>
Dont worry about exercising or charging your body too much... you actually want to work up a Sweat cause this helps get rid of the drug more efficiently.. Also it will offset the depression if it creeps up during w/d..
I have been exercising regularly now so that this is a habit already in place after im completely off the remeron. That way if i do have trouble im not flittering around trying to develop an exercise routine at the last minute or when i feel crappy.
But its up to you... walking ist still something, you are still getting some benefits from this and it distracts the mind..musky
thank you for the advice.
>
> I will limit working out to just walking a lot because I don't want to "charge" my body too much. I want it to have the time and energy to heal while tapering. I plan to increase excercise after I have been off and am stable but that is just me though.
Posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:32:19
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by jules354 on April 19, 2006, at 12:04:43
> np jules... just hope i can maintain my attitude once im completely off the Remeron... which is in about a month.
Saw my acupuncturist today and discussed the "plan" again for when im completlely off.
He will be ready to treat me more often(even every day)if the w/d gets too rough.
he is so amazing.. he is working with people that are kicking street drugs as well as others getting off a/d that have w/d problems.
He told me one patient of his had w/d so bad(not sure from what) that they were coming 2x/day for acupuncture because their panic was so bad.. but He has got them through it .. and the best part was that there was NO MEDS INVOLVED!!!!Im am really fortuate I have support like his.
He told me I may sail though with the w/d or have a rough time.. only time will tellkinda getting a little nervous as the date gets closer, but im trying to keep a positive attitude and the fact that I have tapered EVER SO SLOWLY , hopefully will help
Take Care
Muskythanks musky! your posts have been wonderful for me as well.
>
> take care,
> jules
Posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 11:38:33
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:32:19
I should have asked this before but I went off remeron for 8-10 days last November and the insomnia was so bad I went back on 7.5. Well, I felt much WORSE going back on but I sleep ok. It's as if the heavy head "sponge brain" is really deep in my head. It gives me headaches too. I have had some anxiety too which was absent for almost 2 years, except when weaning meds. Anybody else feel this way?
I wondered if it is just the old anxiety/depression returning but something doesn't sit right with that since when I was off for that short time I felt better but had trouble sleeping. I didn't have much anxiety when off either. I felt "real" when off and my body was craving input because it had been so long. Does any of this ring true for you all? Thank you.
johnnyj
We shall defeat the remeron!
Posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:30:01
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » musky, posted by johnnyj on April 19, 2006, at 8:28:46
walking is so good for you. keep doing it!
i'm sorry to hear your head stuff is still so hard. was it a symptom you had before with your depression?
take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:34:21
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 19, 2006, at 22:32:19
glacial pace. gotta go slowly and let your body heal slowly, that's what i believe. i tapered off for a year and a half! :)
sounds like you found an amazing acupuncturist. that's so great.
take care,
jules
Posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by jules354 on April 20, 2006, at 14:30:01
No, I can't remember having this sponge brain before. I think the heavy head stuff is remeron. Other people have mentioned it to. I don't have much more time to wait before I drop it. I may drop to 3.75 mg this weekend. I want to get off so bad.
Posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
Hey guys, it's really supporting too me knowing their are many others wanting too get of these a/d's and sharing experiences. I'm just about too lower my 30mg remeron, too 15mg. How long do you think i should stick with the 15 for, b4 lowering again?
I've suffered with the spongy head symptoms, and groggy feeling which im 100% sure is the remeron. It's like it's masking and changing your normal state of mind. I find when im like this a nice 30-40 min jog, or time on the exercise bike helps, and building up a sweat makes me feel a lot clearer, and less heavy headed.
Hope your all feeling good.....
Take it easy. Cashy72
Posted by anahata31 on April 21, 2006, at 8:20:54
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
Hi Cashy,
Good luck tapering the Remeron - I can tell you that for me, it now feels much better at 3mg, as far as the foggy-head feeling is concerned. I've tapered down last week, from 7.5 mg, and intend to stay on 3 mg for a week or two, then I'll try to cut down the pill even more (if that's possible) for a couple more weeks, and stop. If you go down from 30 to 15mg, then from 15 to 7.5, I suggest you stick with your new dosing for at *least* a month, then it's up to you... But going as slow as possible is of course the best way to avoid withdrawals.
I am surprised as to how smooth-sailing it is for me right now...Perhaps it is springtime, and more daylight, but what really helps me is exercice, walking especially, in the sun, with my walkman on. I also eat lots of fruits and vegetables and take a multivitamin, and I try to not stress too much if I don't sleep as much as I used to. The idea of being soon free from Remeron gives me a newfound energy, and in that sense, the withdrawal symptoms (a bit of nausea, dizzyness and less appetite) are to me a sign of healing, something that leads me to freedom.
Another positive side-effect is I don't get so much these exhausting and intense dreams - for some funny reason, I thought I would miss that, but so far I don't. Talking to a good friend, or to your psychologist or doctor, or just writing a journal and always remembering the reasons you want to stop, will help you stay focussed on your goal.
Hang in there, and best of luck,
Nathalie
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:08:51
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 20, 2006, at 15:31:35
i wonder if like othe remeron side effects the lower dose is actually making it worse? even if it's a w/d effect...i hope you can get off it soon and without much trouble...
take care,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:13:51
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 21, 2006, at 3:18:12
hey cashy,
in my experience, going slow is the way to go. i'd give it at least a month if not even longer on the 15mg. the way my doctor described it was basically giving your body the amount of time you'd give it on a new increased dose of something to see how your depressiion symptoms are.
i agree about the exercise. yoga and relaxation methods have helped me a lot too.
take care,
jules
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » cashy72, posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 7:13:51
> the way my doctor described it was basically giving your body the amount of time you'd give it on a new increased dose of something to see how your depressiion symptoms are.
I agree with your doctor's abstraction. However, the time necessary to allow the brain to adapt is probably closer to 2 weeks. If a dosage decrease is going to produce withdrawal symptoms, it will do so regardless of the time allowed to elapse beyond this 2-week period. The key is to attempt to reduce the dosage by an amount small enough to prevent an intense withdrawal syndrome that lasts for weeks. I think it is better to think in terms of percentage reductions than absolute amounts. The percentage difference between 7.5mg and 3.75mg is as large as the percentage difference between 30mg and 15mg. 50% is a big number. It might be better to reduce by 25% every 2 weeks or even 10% every week. I guess the bottom line is to allow your body to tell you how large a dosage decrease is comfortable and how long it takes for the brain to stabilize.
While there is nothing counterproductive with waiting months between dosage decreases, I don't think it is necessary.
- Scott
Posted by johnnyj on April 22, 2006, at 8:28:36
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
Hi Scott,
When I lowered my benzo dose I had withdrawal for two weeks and then on the last dose for one month. I read a decent book about withdrawal last year and it said after your last symptoms you should wait a week for the brain to "heal" a tad more.
IMHO, the biggest problem with remeron is the more sedating it is a lower doses. For me, this sedating effect actually manifests itself in terms of heavy head/headache and it makes me feel more depressed. My hope is that this is only true to certain point(dose). For example, down to 7.5 MAY be more sedating but if you cut that down to 3.75 maybe that dose will have less "sponge brain" effects. I just get this feeling that is the case with remeron.
Also, it becomes impossible to cut 10% of a 7.5 mg tablet or Sol-tab. I may mix mine in water and use a syringe that my pharmacist gave me to dose it out. I can cut it by 20% or so. I may just go from 7.5 to 3.75 just because I want to taper a little quicker though. I have found that the last dose you go from to zero is the hardest. With my benzo that was certainly the case. I was very depressed for a month after I stopped my benzo. But, after about a month in a day or two things dramatically improved. Our bodies are very interesting.
Peace
johnnyj
Posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 9:23:54
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 22, 2006, at 8:28:36
Hi.
> I read a decent book about withdrawal last year and it said after your last symptoms you should wait a week for the brain to "heal" a tad more.
That sounds very reasonable. I'll remember to do that for myself should I find myself in such a predicament.
By the way, how would you describe "sponge brain"? I was never on Remeron long enough find out.
You know, I never realized how difficult it was to discontinue Remeron until these threads appeared. Everyone focuses so much on SRI drugs. I guess Remeron gets no respect.
Good luck. I hope you can get clean without too much more discomfort.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on April 22, 2006, at 12:12:10
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 22, 2006, at 7:44:45
Thanks Scott, yeah I forgot to mention that I had a lot of life events going on which made us decide to go super slowly and cautiously. (one period was 6+ months before the next reduction.) Each reduction was 50%. In hindsight it probably wouldn't have been a bad idea to do 25% as you suggest.
take care,
jules
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