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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 0:21:22
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by arrie on June 21, 2004, at 17:32:33
Suprised someone read my saga cool. Today was a good day. Only 10 mg valium mid-day (it doesnt seem to have any negative affect and helps with cravings)and an extremely productive one at that.For arie , No longer on any bupe . What suprises me is I have a few left and I Thought about taking them when I first came off but I didnt. I might give em to a friend who wants to get off done. I have a full script of clonidine left as well. I have read about getting to a real low dose of done like 20-30mg and kinda use the clonidine for mid-late day w/d . This however is a 4-7 day process at most.I would almost guarantee he would be down and out for a few days.He would have to be extremely determined and I recommended some valium or xanax(with he would have to get off the street as well. He can not afford the $2000 but yet pays $70 weekly for done for like three years now????If he would quit his job and have a few children his done would be free.I dont get it . Help should be made more available to people for this thing . Its nasty.well 14 days now....no slip ups.I hope you can find something that works for you.The part about not having to seek is a plus at least you dont go thru that nonsense. It was a MAJOR reason I was so determined to quit.By the way im not chuck:}
Posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 9:58:05
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by arrie on June 21, 2004, at 17:32:33
Posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 9:59:09
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 0:21:22
Reading your post was very beneficial. See, it does have merit to pour yourself out like water on these sites. it is a nasty problem, and I can only surmise that it may well become epidemic with the way it all works now. The remedy is not within reach, face it, unless you are determined and go thru alot of ropes. Recently, on our local la-la news the health editor told me "EEEwwww docs just treat you like garlic if you have an addiction" I had called her about my bup experience(inaccessable) after they did a segment on a 35 year old mom that OD'd on pain meds. I was disgusted, like stick to the pig hearts in babies stories lady. I guess I have alot of contempt because I begged them to treat me with the bup in the "other" office the doc had, which he could have done but was just too much of a ninney or didnt understand the waiver himself. He admitted clearly I knew more than him about it all. thats ok, I will go see the Eygptian, this is typical of my life, I am like Samantha on sex in the city, but have Vic for sex, not men. Maybe I can turn that around, ha ha. At any rate, keep it up, I found it really profound that you stated you got to the point where you were feeling it was all in your head. Thats great because it shows there is an end to the physical aspect.I am down now to about 70 mg of Vic from 150, I visualize myself as a 747 going thru a turbulent lengthy landing, I am cruising at mid altitude now looking down, cant see the runway yet, that is a few weeks off. Anyway, glad you posted and reinforced this bup thing, I was having doubts, but now I'm sure. that Chuckie disappeared, which annoyed me because i wanted to get finale on him, but you provided. Godd luck, and good luck.
Posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 10:14:10
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 9:59:09
> that Chuckie disappeared, which annoyed me
> because i wanted to get finale on him, but you
> provided. Godd luck, and good luck.I don't like to annoy people. I'm sorry if i missed something. I thought i had wrapped everything up.
You wanted a verdict on buprenorphine? Cuz i don't really have a verdict quite yet, i'm still working on me. And i'm not sure how much of me has to do with anyone else at this point.
Anyway sorry if i got confused and failed to do something i should have done. I do that in real life too, even when i'm relatively well. I was mis-wired at birth.
-Chuckie
Posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 11:26:22
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 10:14:10
I had only been very interested in learning how things went for you on the buprenephrine regime. I am sure you can understand...remember at one point you had some urgency " I INSIST YOU TELL ME MORE", well, others are hanging in the balance as well.
Anyway to the point, how are you and how is it going? Are you still on bup? Is the dr still being cool with you and are you going to continue the medication? Fill in the gaps when you are up to it. You sounded pretty optimist in the begining and hopefully you are staying the course. Take care
Posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 12:56:01
In reply to Chuckie- you misunderstood, posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 11:26:22
OK, i'm sorry again, still, if i missed any direct questions. Please forgive me, my medication issues are not my only issues, or even my most troublesome issues. I really didnt mean to leave anyone hanging.
I think that Bupe will be a good thing for me to use to get off opiates and leave them alone. I've almost given up the idea of using opiates for depression. I mean they work, very well, but they are problematic for me. On my first impression of buprenorphine, the stuff seemed so strong that i thought i'd only be taking maybe 4mg/day. My prescription is for 16mg/day and i've slowly worked my way up to that even though that wasn't my intent. Now i'm having to work my way back down again. So anyone hints that it isn't habit forming, they're wrong. But OTOH when i do cut down my dosage, it's not a crisis type thing and i don't miss it a lot.
I haven't seen my doctor again. I just call the pharmacy for my monthly refill and they call him.
Suboxone seems to cost approximately $4.00 per 8mg tablet, no matter where you try to get it. That's a big motivator for cutting it down to the minimum necessary dosage. Right now it costs $250/mo. for me, and i can't keep doing that for very long. So i'm shooting for a maintenance dosage of 1/2 tab per day, and eventually to quit.
Aside from all that, i'm doing pretty OK. I'm still not working because i been messed up in the head, but i don't think that has anything to do with buprenorphine.
Overall, i think it's a very good medicine. I certainly recommend it in place of pain medication s and/or illegal substances. But it's certainly not an innocuous medicine to play around with. It's very strong and it's made of the same stuff that gets some of us in trouble.
-Chuckie
Posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 19:38:04
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine - Thanks! And..., posted by rianna on May 5, 2004, at 18:29:27
Cost even with decent insurance . BCBS can reach 40.00 per script (as this is a non covered med). I reccomend if you have insurance to request that the doctor give you @ least your first months supply of the suboxone @ once to avoid paying $40 for the first week $40 for the second week or so then so on .As for the subutex your kind of stuck paying as you are prescribed(THE FIRST WEEK OR SO OF TREATMENT ,FOR ME ANY WAY).I had to pay several 40.00 co-pays just for the bupe it self. MabeY they do this to prevent you from taking too much. It does no good to take more than you are suppose too so dont WAST YOUR EFFORTS.GOOD LUCK TOO ALL WHO ARE THINKING OF TRYING . IF YOU REALLY DONT WANT TO STOP, BUPE AINT GONNA WORK.IT HELPS YOU GO THRU W/D AND GET OUT OF THE RUTT ,NOT THE NEED TO HAVE OPIATES .DONE MAY BE THE ANSWERE IF YOU STILL WANT TO GET A BUZZ EVERYDAY OTHER THAN THE HAPPINESS YOU CAN FIND FOR YOURSELF.
Posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 19:45:52
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 10:14:10
CURIOUS .HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN ON THE PROGRAM ? ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO TAPER OFF OR ARE YOU LOOKING FOR MATINIENCE? EITHER WAY HOW IS IT GOING ?ANY SLIP UPS?
Posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 20:18:07
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 19:45:52
Thanks to both Chuckie and Sofar, ya know I dont need the buzz, really dont get it anyway anymore, but I like the numbed up feeling because dah, I have a chronic pain issue, so I hope as a narcotic it still delivers. Gads, it must be strong because i dont think I am doing that much in comparison to what you guys have recorded. I am at about 100-150 mgs vics to really get pain control and well a bit of a buzz. This past week down to 80mgs on some hydro duds. I hurt and feel sort of ick, but I am OK. So what will my habit translate into, do you think about 4mg of bup a day, fyi no insurance at all but for everything else theres Mastercard. I am still very encouraged by what you both have reported. Chuckie, dont think so much its bad for you, just go something to get out if possible!
Posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 19:45:52
Please don't talk to me in capital letters. Thanks.
I'm not trying to kick at this time. I have posts about it all over this board but the upshot was that i wanted opiates to treat my depression. Originally, i actually wanted buprenorphine because of all the stuff i'd read about it. But it seemed impossible... couldn't find a doctor, and surely couldn't talk one into prescribing for that purpose. So i got an illegal poppy habit. When it got out of control, i tried detoxing in the hospital and couldn't take it and went back to the drugs. After which i found a doc to prescribe bupe for my chemical dependence. Heh, so i couldn't get it for my depression so i got it for my bad habit instead. %)
I've been on it about two months now and i still feel like i'm adjusting to it. Or adjusting it to me, or something. I'm taking more than i intended to, although not more than i'm prescribed. I'm going to cut it back down again. Like i said, i have no specific plans to quit at this time, i'd just like a lower maintenance dosage and decide from there what i'm gonna do next.
I don't know for sure because i haven't tried, but i understand it's impossible to "slip up" when on Bupe because your regular drugs won't work for like three or four days after you quit the bupe. So it doesn't make any sense to do that, unless i'm wrong.
Posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 20:43:31
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 20:18:07
Arrie,
I'm confused about your dosages. Or mine, or something. Aren't the big fat Vicodins 750mgs? And i thought the regular ones were 500mgs?
I told the doc my poppy habit was approximately equal to four big fat vics per day. That was after detox, when i was trying to keep it contained. Before detox i don't have any idea... six... ten? I could easily take that many vics without a problem.
Anyway, what i told him is what he translated into the 16mgs/day of bupe. Which i now come to find out is a pretty hefty dosage, although i think the max is 32mgs. In any case, i'm sure i'll be fine when i taper back to 8mgs, and i think you would be too.
Someone else around here was taking two or three mgs and being OK with that. So i'm gonna keep tapering until i get too uncomfy.
-Chuckie
Posted by arrie on June 22, 2004, at 23:30:20
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » arrie, posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 20:43:31
These vics or hydro are marketed like 5/500, 10/650, 15/300 etc, the first number is the mg of the narcotic agent, the second is the mg of tylenol or ibuprofin, that is why the risk to liver damage is so great. If you take 10/650 a day that was 6500mg of tylenol, which is much worse for you than the narcotic part, that is why some people do a extraction process to remove the tylenol, just one more hassle with this habit. Stay the course, you sound 100% better than before. At least you are free now to really explore your head without killing your body, which dah supports the head ( unless your in Iraq)those assholes, dont watch the news, its such a trigger. See how minimal are problems realy are, ya just gotta appreciate life even if it seems suckey. Perhaps you started on bup so high because your dr didnt really understand your habit and over estimated it?
Posted by arrie on June 23, 2004, at 23:37:25
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by sofarsogood on June 22, 2004, at 0:21:22
http://www.heroin-detox.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=68&whichpage=2
Posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 8:15:18
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » arrie, posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 20:43:31
VICODIN IS TYLENOL AND HYDROCODONE (OPIATE) THE DOSES ARE 5,7.5 AND 10 MG of hydro WITH VARYING AMOuNUTS OF TYLENOL. The fat ones are probaly 7.5 mg hydro 750 mg tylenol.all the tylenol makes em pretty big pills.
Posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 8:49:34
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 8:15:18
I wrote the prior before I read arri sorry same info . Chuckie you will never find a doctor to treat your deppression with opiates.At least none ive ever heard of . Its not medically practical. Im in the field. Go figure. My best advice to you is taper down of the bupe go thru a few days of shit. The doc will perscribe anti deppresants like candy.Start them immediatly . You already know you have a depression prob. Do your home work mabey there is one out there that you could benefit from. Be honest with the doc about how you feel.(See a shrink) seriuosly.They specalize in this area . A primary care doc will give you cookie cutter treatment. Just because a doc gives you something does not mean you have to take it . You plead your case .If you can back up your idea of whats best for you you can usually get what you want. I know several people that anti-depressants turned there life around. Beleive me Chuckie I would be very happy to be high all the time.With opiates long term you reach such a tolerance you would get to a point of just nodding out. ive been here as well on a good day. My father did that. Youll have to take so much just to feel something you would sit there and have a body buzz and fall in and out of cons.I grew up watching this happen . NEVER feel as high , like the first few times of taking them. Opiate s do not treat depression they cover it up by making you feel good. You must get to the root of it dude .If you feel im preaching let me know and Illl stop.Im just trying to help you or anyone else that reads . Good luck . USE THE FORCE .peace.
Posted by arrie on June 24, 2004, at 10:46:54
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » so far so good, posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 8:49:34
Well, I took it too. this is a problem because
opiates do seem to work on depression, but they can turn around and bite you in the ass too after awhile. But the more I read about some ssri's its hard to have peace of mind taking those too long term, maybe short term for ajump start.
Posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 23:24:15
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » so far so good, posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 8:49:34
I have added checking and listing my info on this forum to my things to do . Today was a lazy day.Watched Miracle good movie . Out of valium out of restoril . Not much in the department of feeling shitty just unmotivated and tense . Who isnt. Well I called the detox center today for more restoril(sleepers)witch I got , and some more valium (gave me 1 10 mg for the day and said I had to come see the shrink for more tomarrow )If he feels Its needed. I have no problem with that. Im starting naltrexone as well. It is an opiate antaganist. (you take opiates you dont get high and will likely feel really shitty). It is also suppose to help with cravings.From everything I read its a good thing mild side effects unless you got a bad liver and for opiate abstinence keep it 50 mg or under . Ive read for alcohol and obesity ? It can be as much as 150mg. This is the dose that is bad for your liver.I really think the valium has helped me immensley with all this cravings,anxiety,tensness, I guess just stress in general.I take them as prescribed 10 mg daily when I feel the need .Valium has a long half life . It stays in you for a while .I would like just ten more or so.I have no plans to attemted to stay on this long term. See what the shrink says. Long term valium usage is not really a good thing. Honestley I dont get high of the recommended dosage . I function great. I got alot of shit going on besides this plan anyways ,normal everyday life problems.jj.Im 15-16 days off any opiates. I really can not sleep,tues. I was up and down like 8 times in 7 hours of attempted sleep. Sucks, wake up feeling like I had no sleep. Last night wends. at work (I work 24 hour shifts) I got like 3 hours broken sleep. running calls all day and night. I only used .1 clonidine @ 10;00pm due to a general feeling of anxiety late in the day(mid day valium would have prevented this but i was out ).Its strange Ive heard it can take several weeks for w/d to fully go away( just mild stuff) . I notice runny nose the other stuff from above and I get a chuckle when I look in the mirror and my pupes are blown occassionaly.(. Clonidine does help with w/d symtoms and a little with the tensness, but by the time you take enough of it for tensness its hard to keep your eyes open. Well Thats my storie and Im sticking to It . Feel free to ask any questions and once again I hope someone is helped by this .
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2004, at 4:48:45
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 23:24:15
> I HAVE ... FELT LIKE SH[*]T
>
> sofarsogood> those [*]ssholes, dont watch the news, its such a trigger.
>
> arrieSorry to be such a prude, but please don't use language that could offend others.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Chuckie on June 25, 2004, at 11:30:42
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » so far so good, posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 8:49:34
> Opiates do not treat depression they cover it
> up by making you feel good.That is a matter of some acrimony and hurt feelings, even here where we have the good Doctor requiring people not to be acrimonious and not to hurt people's feelings.
"Do your homework" is sound advice, but it's wasted on me since my whole life has been one big long homework. If you wish to do some homework, you can start here:
http://opioids.com/buprenorphine/buprefdep.html
...That's a synopsis. If you're interested i can probably provide a week's worth of homework. And here is just one of many threads on the subject at Dr. Bob's place:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011015/msgs/81414.html
-Chuckie
Posted by arrie on June 25, 2004, at 19:37:32
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » so far so good, posted by Chuckie on June 25, 2004, at 11:30:42
sorry guys, i know its tough but you both sound a little "grumpy" shall we say. As if ya needed to hear that.....hang in there. On a scale of one to 10, how would you rate how you feel now, compared to when you were using? Sofar, it sounds like you have WD symptoms, whats up with that,you should be A ok, how much Bup are you on now, Chuckie what are you taking now? I thought the other site had lots of good info and diverse as well concerning case historys.
Dr. Bob I am sorry, that is the last time I will try to get one by you, you are winning the war on potty mouths. Take care Guys and good job, I will be joining the Bup team in about 2 weeks so, remember youre my inspiration
Arrie
Posted by arrie on June 25, 2004, at 19:42:50
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by so far so good on June 24, 2004, at 23:24:15
Just an fyi, I took Valium for years for spastic colon, just decided one day to quit, did not have one single problem bada-bing gone. It made me sleepy and I think if you are like me the draw to these meds was not sleepiness but the perk up good feeling, so I would not worry too much about the Valium, geeez get way past the monster first, then worry about the little pests.
Posted by so far so good on June 27, 2004, at 9:26:57
In reply to sofar: about Valium, posted by arrie on June 25, 2004, at 19:42:50
I went to see the shrink . I pleaded my case. I was looking for only a week or two more supply. I told him I had no intention of using it long term . I could tell he was on the fence whether to give it to me or not.He suggested vistoril
?. @ this time I dont know anything about (I will soon ). I responded . " I do not want to get into taking anyother meds that I have never taking before ,especialy with me starting the naltrexone. The valium is working wonders for me. I also explained to him I am aware that valium is not a long term answere for the problems I am still having(anxious,irritable stressed out.(from this stuff or life stuff)and that I was fully aware of the potential abuse of valium if taking more than prescibed.If thats what I wanted I could go around the block and get a hand full of valium xanax, or whatever .I also reminded him of his initial plan to not make any adjustments to the current med plan until our follow up in mid July. I could tell ,with my addiction Hx he did not want to give me any valium but he did .To be honest yesterday(work day) and so far today have been good. I have a follow up july 9,to develope the post w/d, detox, get to the root of the evil stay clean plan. Well I am happy to have the valium it really does help. Well Thats it. . I feel myself (opiate free) coming back and people who know me and know all this ,are noticing it as well.Still no opiate use .20 days or so i guess. Wuish me well . Again Hope this is helpfull.
Posted by so far so good on June 27, 2004, at 9:51:15
In reply to sofar: about Valium, posted by arrie on June 25, 2004, at 19:42:50
Dont get me started dude .Lets be nice . If I came off brash I apologize.Chuck.My home work has been my own past,the Past of many close friends whos problems were ten fold of mine including problems you seem to be facing. Who better to ask about space or the way the earth from space looks than the astronauts?I have dealt with this type of shit since my memory will alow me too.Past down generation to generation. Must be in the blood.:) Including a step father thrown in the mix with over medicating/alcohol abuse and a insuline dependent diabetic you wanna see bi-polar? .I have also done reading up on things that cross my mind as well as talking to many mental health?addiction staff. I was not trying to insult you . Hang in there dude. Please checking a few web sites and a small majority view of opiates being the only "cure" for some peoples deppression.Just isnt my thing . You know whats good for you. Im telling whats working for me and what makes sense based upon my findings and guidance.Be good and farewell for now.
Posted by Chuckie on June 27, 2004, at 16:10:35
In reply to chuck opiates for deppression ?, posted by so far so good on June 27, 2004, at 9:51:15
> Please checking a few web sites and a small
> majority view of opiates being the only "cure"
> for some peoples deppression.Just isnt my thingIf it's not your thing and you don't feel like investigating, then don't offer your unconcerned and unresearched opinions. I don't appreciate your sarcasm.
Wow, you ask to be nice and then you're not nice, and you say no insult intended, followed by an insult. Add that all up and it zeros out so thanks for nothing.
-Chuckie
Posted by Chuckie on June 27, 2004, at 16:20:04
In reply to You both sound grumpy, posted by arrie on June 25, 2004, at 19:37:32
Hey Arrie,
Sorry, i might have been grumpy. But it's a grumpy subject so i might have just been grumpy with SoFar for interjecting the opinion that i've heard way too many times.
I might get booted out now for my grumpiness. In any case, please report here your experience with Bupe. The whole thing... how did you find a doctor, what is your doc's procedures and policies, how much does your medication cost, etc etc. Because apparently i lucked into one of the easier paradigms, and the way it all went for me isn't what people should expect. But i do know i would have liked more information before i went into it all so the more the better. So far i think there's only two relatively complete stories, mine and BupeFan's.
Thanks and GL
-Chuckie
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