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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:11
In reply to Re: the brain » alexandra_k, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 8:13:38
> And btw, did you know that though Kraepelin recognized bipolar disorder as a definite, definable illness, he was sceptical about schizophrenia and speculated about its being in the class of severe anxiety; Most people just call him the father of making a distinction between bp and schizophrenia, and if you read his "Manic Depression Illness and Paranoia"-- it ain't so.
What ain't so? I'm confused (not such a difficult thing to accomplish).
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:11
In reply to Re: the brain » Squiggles, posted by SLS on September 24, 2006, at 9:01:03
> > And btw, did you know that though Kraepelin recognized bipolar disorder as a definite, definable illness, he was sceptical about schizophrenia and speculated about its being in the class of severe anxiety; Most people just call him the father of making a distinction between bp and schizophrenia, and if you read his "Manic Depression Illness and Paranoia"-- it ain't so.
>
> What ain't so? I'm confused (not such a difficult thing to accomplish).Many sites identify Kraepelin's contribution
as introducing a new categorization in psychiatric
taxonomy and recognizing the distinction between schizophrenia and manic-depressive illness. But infact, in his last chapter on this he seems to place schizophrenia in the larger class of Paranoias (which used to be called dementia praecox - meaning early dementia or dementia at youth).Squiggles
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Jost on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:11
In reply to Re: Leaving the site for a while » alexandra_k, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 8:56:50
Thomas Szasz
SZASZ SZASZ please get this right you are driving me crazy because you keep spelling it wrong, and I keep having to figure out how to spell it and that aint easy.
SZASZ:
S * Z * A * S --yes, S, not T, but S * Z
bessides, if you plan to refer to him in your thesis, you'll have to spell it right there, :)
Jost
Posted by Jost on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:11
In reply to Re: the brain » SLS, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 9:23:25
Yeah---but then everybody also says that "schizophrenia" used to be called "dementia praecox"-- and if so, maybe he did actually help in the taxonomy of schizophrenia.
I mean, I think everybody says, well, Kraepelin defined schizophrenia, although he called it "dementia praecox."
eg, Columbia Encyclopedia:"Kraepelin...established the clinical pictures of dementia praecox (now known as schizophrenia) in 1893, and of manic-depressive psychosis (see depression) in 1899, after analyzing thousands of case histories."
Jost
Posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:11
In reply to Re: Leaving the site for a while ----alexandra_k, posted by Jost on September 24, 2006, at 10:55:12
> Thomas Szasz
>
> SZASZ SZASZ please get this right you are driving me crazy because you keep spelling it wrong, and I keep having to figure out how to spell it and that aint easy.
>
> SZASZ:
>
> S * Z * A * S --yes, S, not T, but S * Z
>
> bessides, if you plan to refer to him in your thesis, you'll have to spell it right there, :)
>
> Jost
I'm terribly sorry. I apologize Dr. Szasz.If it's any consolation I sometimes misspell
Dr. Shou, sorry Schou.:-)
nothing personal
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Squiggles, posted by Jost on September 24, 2006, at 11:00:51
> Yeah---but then everybody also says that "schizophrenia" used to be called "dementia praecox"-- and if so, maybe he did actually help in the taxonomy of schizophrenia.
>
> I mean, I think everybody says, well, Kraepelin defined schizophrenia, although he called it "dementia praecox."
>
>
> eg, Columbia Encyclopedia:
>
> "Kraepelin...established the clinical pictures of dementia praecox (now known as schizophrenia) in 1893, and of manic-depressive psychosis (see depression) in 1899, after analyzing thousands of case histories."
>
> JostThey were all dementias at the time -- look at
this interesting article (with links):
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/2/381"The authors dramatically describe the appallingly complex diagnostic decisions faced by neuropsychiatrists in Alzheimer’s time, as now: dementia praecox (schizophrenias), dementia agitans (bipolar disorder), dementia paralytica (tertiary syphilis), dementia senilis (arteriosclerosis), and dementia presenilis (p. 81). Alzheimer objectively categorized the problem: which were organic, which functional? After he published his clinicopathological correlations in 1904, four discoveries were made in rapid fire through 1908: Spirochaeta pallidum by a zoologist (Fritz Schaudinn) and a serologist (Erich Hoffmann); the syphilitic origin of general paresis by a psychiatrist (Felix Plaut); a serological test for syphilis by a bacteriologist (August von Wasserman); and "606" (arsphenamine) for treatment by chemists (Paul Erlich and Sahachiro Hata). These multidisciplinary efforts had a major social impact: one-third to one-half of the patients in German mental hospitals and 70% of juveniles were put there by a treatable disease. The only psychiatric events of comparable impact were the discovery sponsored by the Rockefeller Foundation that pellagra was a vitamin deficiency, which halved the population of mental hospitals in the southern United States, and the impact on the state hospital system and psychiatric practice of the discovery of neuroleptics, beginning in the 1950s with Rauwolfia serpentina."
Squiggles
Posted by alexandra_k on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Jost, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 11:58:03
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh syphylis, a success for psychiatry!then what do they do with it?
they give it back to general medicine.
tut tut, they should have kept it ;-)
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Squiggles, posted by alexandra_k on September 24, 2006, at 12:33:13
Chronic lyme's disease which is all over the world in different forms also resembles syphylis. It's only by selective blood testing that differention is made. And cerebral spinal fluid crosses as you know the blood brain barrier. And one of the long term problems from lymes is brain related and treated with pschiatric medication once the acute infection is cleared up with an antibiotic that also crosses the blood brain barrier. Not all are capable of this. But damage to the brain is quite common leaving a person with maybe depression. I have chronic lymes but my spinal fluid was clear. But it hides in the organs of the body and at some point as maybe that's really what happened to me it can come out and do more damage. Heart damage and arthritis are frequent results of the infection. Also MS is diagnosed on MRI they ruled that out with me. But again psychiatric meds would be used along with medical drugs. Mental illness can come from many different things and diseases that come from other parts of the body. Spinal menengitis might be another one. Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2006, at 19:12:45
What are lymes?
As you probably know Dr. E. Fuller Torrey
has considered the hypothesis of viruses
being responsible for mental illness; and
the medical books are full of disorders
belonging to vitamin deficiencies (e.g.
pellagra), hormonal problems, bacterial
infections, viruses, structural abnormalities,
infections, and on and on, that are responsible
for mental illness. Infact, there are so many
that I have stopped asking why drs. do not
perform "differential diagnoses" as it might
just take a lifetime to find out.I take it that your lyme disease has actually
cured you of a mental disorder? If so, you
have won a diagnostic lottery.Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 19:20:29
Squggles I wish. Lymes is a disease transmitted from the deer tick so tiny a speck, from outside in your yard, rodents carry it too. Google lymes' it's very complicated. I just didn't show any spirochettes( the little things that hide in body organs and cause the problems) in my cerebral fluid at the time. No one knows how long or where I got it. It showed up on a freak blood test when I said I'd had a tick. But it wasn't the right type. Love Jan
Posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2006, at 20:42:57
> Squggles I wish. Lymes is a disease transmitted from the deer tick so tiny a speck, from outside in your yard, rodents carry it too. Google lymes' it's very complicated. I just didn't show any spirochettes( the little things that hide in body organs and cause the problems) in my cerebral fluid at the time. No one knows how long or where I got it. It showed up on a freak blood test when I said I'd had a tick. But it wasn't the right type. Love Jan
How big? Can you see it? What does it look
like without a microscope? You say it can
be seen in the cerebral fluid? You know, i
am so terrified of spinal tap, after that movie,
that i think i would just accommodate the little
buggers. :-)Seriously, are you sure? The drs. said they
found it in the cerebral fluid?Squiggles
Posted by Jost on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 19:20:29
Wow E. Torrey Fuller-- the name takes me back...... ah, graduate school.
Gee, he sounds a little... how shall I say this?... a little off his rocker?
He wrote an entire book attacking the evils of Ezra Pound-- which I had to read for my thesis-- I wondered how anyone could keep up the drumbeat of invective, even against someone who was, okay, not exactly the sweetest guy.
So while I still don't know the answer, at least it's he's moved on, so to speak.
Jost
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2006, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: the brain » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 24, 2006, at 20:48:07
Squiggles you didn't google it. It's so small about the head of a pin in size. Anyway no it wasn't in my spinal fluid when they did the lumbar puncture. But before that it could have been. If you google it it shows pics and everything. Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 6:52:49
In reply to Re: the brain » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2006, at 21:37:02
I went to the images. Interesting--
i have had small circular rings with
raised dots around on my arm, esp. when
i was a kid-- but they are gone. I thought
that was just a temporary viral thing;
also, i do not see any psychiatric symptoms
that would resemble bp in this disease.Squiggles
Posted by SLS on September 25, 2006, at 8:26:00
In reply to Re: the brain » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 6:52:49
Was this thread redirected appropriately?
Please see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060918/msgs/688978.html
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2006, at 21:54:37
In reply to Re: the brain - Where does this thread belong?, posted by SLS on September 25, 2006, at 8:26:00
I wondered the same thing. Surely this isn't social? Love Phillipa
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 25, 2006, at 22:16:39
In reply to Re: the brain » Phillipa, posted by Squiggles on September 25, 2006, at 6:52:49
Okay- Here's a brain condition:
PKU: phenylketoneuria (or something like that)
Basically, it's a very well-studied, well-understood genetic condition. Present from birth, babies are unable to metabolize a particular amino acid (phenylalanine), and so this ordinary amino acid basically acts as a poison in their baby brains, and can cause severe mental retardation and behavioral problems as the primary and most devastating consequences of having a particular gene.
Is it a brain disorder? you betcha!
How is it treated? Well, basically, it's treated through dietary modifications. Prenatal testing for the particular genetic defect will identify babies with PKU and their caregivers will be taught never to give their child phoods with phenylalanine (that's why aspartame has a warning, as do many diet phoods)
PKU is a brilliant example that flouts the traditional "biological illness merits biological treatment" approach. Actually, it's a behavioral change that is required instead. Parents must modify the diet they feed their newborn and learn how to recognize which foods are appropriate or inappropriate. By changing an environmental variable, such as parenting and nourishment, a genetic disease can be thwarted. Today PKU kids grow up with relatively intact health (even though their phood is probably not so tasty).
"Biological based" can mean so many different things
100% genetically determined (like Fragile X mental retardation: but even here there are individual differences!!)
100% genetically determined and <=100% avoidable (like PKU)
some combination of genetic & environmental factors (like Parkinson's Disease, or Stroke, or schizophrenia, or heart disease, cancer, or many other psychiatric/mental illnesses)
Isn't it funny how "stress relief" from social support and supportive relationships can influence positive outcomes for so many different illnesses, ranging from cancer and heart disease to depression?
SLS, I could never know your whole history, nor would I ever presume to know what's best for you- but sometimes a mental illness is a physiological response to something in the environment. If a trained professional can help you recognize what is contributing to this response, and perhaps help you rearrange your environment (or learn to react to it differently), isn't it possible that you may mitigate the severity or frequency of such reactions?
For instance- most people nowadays complain of "stress" but there seem to be so many ways of defining or interpreting or reacting to a stressor. Perhaps a particular combination of stressors in your current situation and your personal history are working together with some genetic or ontogenetic predisposition to push you towards the unhealthy end of the mental illness continuum?
If you cannot identify or realize the connections between the stressors, you may never have a chance to change your reaction to them. That was my perception, at least: *poof* out of nowhere this depression thing was kicking my *ss. I was losing! what the f*ck! well, now I get it. It wasn't a virus, it was a pretty well-learned coping technique that I have always used in traumatic situations. It's just a complete shut-down of emotion and motivation that comes from an overload of chronic anxiety. -- fine-- what causes my anxiety... hmm? difficult question. a lot of unconnected things... oh wait. maybe they're not so unconnected after all. hmm. Well these little insights brought to me courtesy of 5 months of therapy, which I most certainly would not have tolerated without a little help sleeping and eating and thinking provided by some cymbalta, seroquel and provigil.
SLS- I hope you don't take offense at me using you for an example? I sincerely believe that everyone responds differently to different treatments. BUT I also believe that at different stages in our lives we may be ready or receptive to therapy, even if it didn't seem to make any difference earlier. Really truly I just want the best for you, and I'm so sorry that you've been struggling on this end of the pole for so long. It's terrible. Do you like cyber hugs? I'll send you some? Or at the very least, a home-made chocolate cupcake with fudgy truffle frosting.
-Li
Posted by alexandra_k on September 25, 2006, at 22:23:12
In reply to Re: the brain -SLS, posted by Lindenblüte on September 25, 2006, at 22:16:39
> PKU is a brilliant example that flouts the traditional "biological illness merits biological treatment" approach. Actually, it's a behavioral change that is required instead. Parents must modify the diet they feed their newborn and learn how to recognize which foods are appropriate or inappropriate. By changing an environmental variable, such as parenting and nourishment, a genetic disease can be thwarted. Today PKU kids grow up with relatively intact health (even though their phood is probably not so tasty).Yeah, brilliant example, cheers for that.
One question...
Is PKU considered a psychiatric condition or a general medical condition?
Was it ever considered psychiatric do you know?
Posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 3:58:05
In reply to Re: thanks! » Lindenblüte, posted by alexandra_k on September 25, 2006, at 22:23:12
In "The Madness of King George" the King recovers as (or because) he reads something from King Lear, which of course I forget.
But once, I think, it was regarded as a psychiatic illness. Is this the one with blue urine?
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 26, 2006, at 8:11:50
In reply to Re: thanks!, posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 3:58:05
I forget the blue urine illness! that's some cool stuff!
:)
-Li
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 26, 2006, at 8:18:19
In reply to Re: thanks! » Lindenblüte, posted by alexandra_k on September 25, 2006, at 22:23:12
I think PKU is treated as a neurological/general medical condition. The consequences of their metabolic disorder can impact some of the other systems too.
Isn't it funny that the most reliable symptom of my dad's kidneys having a flare-up are confusion and weeping?
Whenever he starts acting all teary and delusional, mom takes him to get his kidneys checked out, and inevitably they are doing a poor job and not filtering out all the crap they need to be filtering out. I'm sure that his entire system would eventually be affected, but it's just that his brain is the most sensitive to fluctuations in whatever...
psychological-neurological-endocrine These are false distinctions. a single cell often plays critical roles in all three "systems". Why shouldn't we expect that talk therapy changes the way the body responds physiologically. Wouldn't it HAVE to, by virtue of changing behavior or thought? (oh... I'll get off my anti-dualist soapbox now)
-Li
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 10:02:56
In reply to Re: the brain -SLS, posted by Lindenblüte on September 25, 2006, at 22:16:39
Hi.
I really hate to post along this thread anymore.
> Okay- Here's a brain condition:
>
> PKU: phenylketoneuria (or something like that)> Is it a brain disorder? you betcha!
Well, it is not really a brain disorder. It is a metabolic condition resulting from a defect in liver function. Its effects on the brain is secondary. It is not a disorder of the brain as is Bipolar Disorder or Alzheimer's Disease where the primary site of dysfunction is in the brain. That's the way I look at it. I would be curious to know if it appears in the DSM IV. The criteria for what is included in the DSM for mental illness is quite expansive.
> SLS, I could never know your whole history, nor would I ever presume to know what's best for you- but sometimes a mental illness is a physiological response to something in the environment.
I have gone the food-allergy route. That proved ineffective. What a pain in the neck that was. I'm pretty sure I was tested for candidiasis. I don't know. There are just so many of these alternative environmental and nutritional things to consider, I just haven't had the motivation to do all of them. I've tried lots of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, omega-3, inositol, and S-AMe.
> If a trained professional can help you recognize what is contributing to this response, and perhaps help you rearrange your environment (or learn to react to it differently), isn't it possible that you may mitigate the severity or frequency of such reactions?
>
> For instance- most people nowadays complain of "stress" but there seem to be so many ways of defining or interpreting or reacting to a stressor. Perhaps a particular combination of stressors in your current situation and your personal history are working together with some genetic or ontogenetic predisposition to push you towards the unhealthy end of the mental illness continuum?I am practically stress-free. No anxiety. I worked very hard to arrive at this point. For me, CBT is almost automatic. I might be getting rusty, though. Self-actualization and living in the moment is my modus operendi. Of course, the depression makes the realization of these things very difficult, but the process itself is somewhat freeing. I practically tore myself apart and rebuilt myself when I was in my early twenties. Yes, I have learned to manage stress well, and I am conscious of how it impacts upon my mental illness. Occasionally, I have an event in my personal life that upsets me. It does take time to process these things. I do compartmentalize things sometimes so that I don't carry them around with me all day long and dwell on it. This is not denial, though. I am not afraid to face the problem and feel the emotions and process the issue as it occurs. Of course, there are times when I need to take small bites at a time to deal with. Sometimes the process unfolds in a way that could not be imagined or anticipated. I usually begin with the attitude that I will be able to get through it. That also helps to reduce my anxiety level.
> SLS- I hope you don't take offense at me using you for an example?
Nope. Not at all. It is especially instructive that you shared yourself as an example too.
:-)
> I sincerely believe that everyone responds differently to different treatments. BUT I also believe that at different stages in our lives we may be ready or receptive to therapy, even if it didn't seem to make any difference earlier. Really truly I just want the best for you, and I'm so sorry that you've been struggling on this end of the pole for so long. It's terrible. Do you like cyber hugs? I'll send you some? Or at the very least, a home-made chocolate cupcake with fudgy truffle frosting.
You have no idea how big a smile I have on my face right now. Maybe a little tear too. Thanks.
((((You too))))
- Scott
Posted by Squiggles on September 26, 2006, at 10:09:05
In reply to Re: the brain -SLS » Lindenblüte, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 10:02:56
> Hi.
>
> I really hate to post along this thread anymore.
>
> > Okay- Here's a brain condition:
> >
> > PKU: phenylketoneuria (or something like that)
>
> > Is it a brain disorder? you betcha!
>
> Well, it is not really a brain disorder. It is a metabolic condition resulting from a defect in liver function.I would compare it to post-partum depression;
Squiggles
p.s. i started writing at Psychology but
nobody seems to be going there. I'm not
sure how Dr. Bob categorizes themes-- maybe
he is building a library for medical reference.Feedback on this would be appreciated.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 26, 2006, at 10:41:53
In reply to Re: the brain -SLS » Lindenblüte, posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 10:02:56
Do you like cyber hugs? I'll send you some? Or at the very least, a home-made chocolate cupcake with fudgy truffle frosting.
>
> You have no idea how big a smile I have on my face right now. Maybe a little tear too. Thanks.
>
> ((((You too))))
>
>
> - ScottAwwww! see, Scott, THAT's what the social board is for. I'm so happy to hear that you have approached your mental illness with healthy attitudes and a can-do approach. Sure, there are always alternative treatments and such to explore, but you could spend your whole life in search of?? what exactly? And that stuff is expensive too!
I personally would like to go on a oyster and champagne cure. How come all those alternative therapies are bitter and grainy? wheatgrass? how about gummi bears? fish oil? how about deep fried smelt with sweet and sour sauce? green tea caplets? how about fragrant freshly brewed sencha, or green tea ice cream?
Thanks for sharing hugs (((SLS))) just speak up anytime you need some more or a cupcake or some smelt or something. Made my morning to know that the esteemed SLS is fond of cupcakes in addition to neurotransmitters! You don't have to solve all the problems in the world. Sometimes just hanging out is good stuff too.
see you around,
-Li
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 26, 2006, at 10:46:14
In reply to Re: the brain -SLS » SLS, posted by Squiggles on September 26, 2006, at 10:09:05
Hi Squiggles,
this topic doesn't seem exactly social to me,
nor is it exclusively medical or psychopharm-related. Has to do with health, sure...It's almost like it got rerouted here because it's too interdisciplinary to be categorized. Social is the default for interdisciplinary threads? I dunno. Sounds like a topic for the Admin board.
At the very least, I'm happy that the thread caught my attention on an evening where I felt like I had something to contribute.
And, I'm happy to see you back. squiggles ~~~~
I like your name a lot. reminds me of eating pasta with my hands, for some reason, or making play-doh snakes.
-Li
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