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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 13:17:04
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by used2b on April 1, 2005, at 12:41:34
are you old and your body ready to die?
I was unaware of those facts from your initial post.
Eerie, but I posted a couple of weeks ago on just this. My father had decided he was ready to die and everyone in the family EXCEPT me thought he had taken leave of his senses and they actually committed him to the Geriatric Pysch Ward.
I was FURIOUS (ok, I still AM, and he died last Friday evening, he was 79+ and his body was just deteriorating around him)...
I DO actually understand and respect you for your wishes. If you were in a Buddhist society, your friends, family, and neighbors would be assisting you in your last rites with love and respect. I wish you could have this, too.
I'm truly sorry that I did not read "a full life already lived" in your post. I humbly apologize for my assumptions...
I hope you will forgive me.
with great respect,
sunny10
Posted by used2b on April 1, 2005, at 14:19:39
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by sunny10 on April 1, 2005, at 13:17:04
Well, full life not already lived. Do people only get to go peacefully if they had a "full life"?
What if they had a frustrating and constantly disappointing life? Do I have to stay until I tell somebody it was a full life?
What if I plan my life expectancy more according to standards in Africa than in the United States? It's all very relative and has to do with my personal values vs. the most proximate social values.
I wouldn't tell my parents I'm ready to retire while they are still pining for more time alive. I probably wouldn't tell anybody I know right now. If there were people I could know, who trusted to respect me and who allow me to be honest without tampering in my personal outlook, I would probably feel more welcome in this world.
My body could probably live more than a century if I play it that way, but I feel no obligation to stay. My soul is tired, and my heart has seen enough.
Posted by Susan47 on April 2, 2005, at 9:52:46
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by used2b on April 1, 2005, at 14:19:39
> Well, full life not already lived. Do people only get to go peacefully if they had a "full life"?
No, you get to go peacefully if that's what you choose to do. You're right; once the will to live is gone, your body Will become ill, or your mind will cause you to kill yourself by suicide, or you will have an accidental death or terrible circumstance which may reduce you to vegetable matter. Yes, these things happen when you have no will to live for long enough. I know someone who lost that will and simply disappeared; I believe he walked off into the forest somewhere and just never came back.
You're complaining about society's outlook on death and dying. Wyy? I mean, if you truly want to die, as it sounds like you do, why come here? Why not just die?
Read this: If there were people I could know, who trusted to respect me and who allow me to be honest without tampering in my personal outlook, I would probably feel more welcome in this world. You wrote that, and the fact that you wrote that says, to me anyway, that you don't totally want to die. And you don't sound that old, either. You sound spiritually demoralized. And I think you really would love to find a reason to live. And you probably have a couple, but no energy or desire, right now.
But, I'm probably wrong. So go at me, if you're still here.
Posted by used2b on April 3, 2005, at 12:40:54
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by Susan47 on April 2, 2005, at 9:52:46
> You're complaining about society's outlook on death and dying. Wyy? I mean, if you truly want to die, as it sounds like you do, why come here? Why not just die?
Two reasons. Whether I want to live or die, Western society is primarily interested in entertaining only my thoughts of living. So I walk alone into that dark night.
Second, whether I'm visiting overnight or forever committing to the darkness, it seems I need not walk alone until I step across that irreversible threshold of death. I don't want to hear anyone saying "you can't go there -- if you even think of going there, you are sick and we will take over your body because your mind is no longer in charge." I would rather converse with someone who will say "you say you want to go because XXX, and you say you don't want to go because XXX."
That way, regardless the outcome, I potentially benefit from knowing I've coherently related who I really am and that I'm not speaking some kind of incoherent pidgin babble.
And a third reason, related to the first, is that if I am only welcome in this world insofar as I testify to an incessant desire for life, I'm probably not welcome because some of the time I have neither such desire nor much reason to represent that I yearn to live. I would rather live honestly with unhappy people, if only briefly, than in the midst of joyous souls whose members-only party seems eternal but whose facade is often false.
Posted by just plain jane on April 4, 2005, at 15:53:18
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Susan47, posted by used2b on April 3, 2005, at 12:40:54
Posted by Spoc on April 4, 2005, at 17:30:48
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Susan47, posted by used2b on April 3, 2005, at 12:40:54
I do understand what you're describing, and feel that many probably do. I wanted to confirm that part. But you're right that in our society anyway, it is probably too ingrained that it is best not to "spread" or reinforce it with others, so the people who come forward in places like this are likely to be offering the kind of help and viewpoints you don't want. Personally I haven't needed to connect with anyone on this thinking, because I haven't felt any benefit from that on any level, and I think I would only perceive one if it would help enlighten those close to me IRL who may be affected.
I offer all that only by way of saying that I think you are indeed not alone in how you look at things, only in the part about finding likeminded people who also need or want or are willing to talk about it.
It does feel strange not to end by saying something like "I hope you feel better," but I won't. I do hope you find someone to talk about it with though, if that is what will come the closest...
Posted by Susan47 on April 6, 2005, at 23:07:01
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » used2b, posted by Spoc on April 4, 2005, at 17:30:48
Now just to be clear, I suspected my post would be misconstrued, and of course it was. I don't believe I urged you to continue. I just pointed out a couple of discrepancies. Go, if that's your wish. Why bother with a dissertation on going if you believe that's what you want? I suppose your behaviour strikes me as a bit oxymoronic. Why bother with the point of view? What's the point? Are you preaching to the converted, here? I think you may be, and aren't really aware of it .. I find it a struggle to want to live, many times. There may be a day it becomes too much for me. I can't predict that. But if I really believe I want to go as badly as you seem to want to, I don't know why I'd bother to stick around to debate the issue.
That was my point entirely.
I'm sorry if you misconstrued my post.
Sigh.
Good night.
Posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 13:20:05
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by Susan47 on April 6, 2005, at 23:07:01
I am sorely confused. Are you representing that humans are driven by only one set of motivations, and never by competing and contrasting motivations?
I've seen that notion represented elsewhere, but I find little basis in reality to support the notion that people don't widely hold competing outlooks within their own mind. Evidence from animal behavior suggests the capacity for competing outlooks long preceded human evolution.
The myth of "one true belief" seems to serve best as a persuasive tool, whereby a person is presented conflicting statements they have made and are then challenged to embrace one as sincere and the other as false.
Posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 13:38:46
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by Susan47 on April 6, 2005, at 23:07:01
> Now just to be clear, I suspected my post would be misconstrued, and of course it was.
Who misconstrued your post? I reviewed this thread and in your post I see questions, to which I directly responded, citing my own experience and nothing related to constructs introduced in your post.If you would like your prose to be recognized as a statement rather than as a question, I recommend punctuating sentences, especially those that summarize a paragraph, with periods instead of with question marks. I tend to use standard english expressions when parsing written words.
Who says I am preaching to anybody? This is a place where a phsycian has invited comments about conditions sometimes considered pathological and I took the bait.
You wrote "But if I really believe I want to go as badly as you seem to want to, I don't know why I'd bother to stick around to debate the issue."
Well, neither do I, but then I have never tried to write anything about how you deal with thoughts of death. In this forum, I've written only about my own condition, for which your experience might not be instructive.
Apparently, I am not part of whatever choir you perceive, and I don't sing from any of the same pages as you. Maybe somebody already has an exclusive franchise on suffering and my revelations of my unique condition is an inappropriate intrusion on somebody else's purview. But my perception is that my perspective is mine alone and my perceptions of my condition don't require that my explanations be any more consistent than the condition itself.
Posted by Susan47 on April 7, 2005, at 17:01:11
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Susan47, posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 13:38:46
You're absolutely right.
I'm sorry. I was being a bit over-sensitive. You certainly seem to have your head sitting straight on your shoulders. Good for you.
Posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 18:53:34
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by Susan47 on April 7, 2005, at 17:01:11
> You certainly seem to have your head sitting straight on your shoulders.
It appears that way sometimes. But I doubt anybody will be surprised when I decide to disconnect them. It appears to me there is no market in this world for a squarely situated head.
Posted by Susan47 on April 7, 2005, at 19:44:43
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 18:53:34
Perhaps not. My father had a squarely situated head.
Posted by Spoc on April 7, 2005, at 21:07:10
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 18:53:34
>It appears to me there is no market in this world for a squarely situated head.
I have read a few of your posts and think you perceive very unique and viable angles to things, that many probably don't. The kind of foundation that makes a very interesting speaker, writer, philosopher, ethicist, lobbyist/activist, logician, favorite university professor, many things.
I also suspect there is a lot of great dry humor in there. (May make a great satirist, columnist, screenwriter...)
I just wanted to pay you and your apparent talents a compliment, for its own sake. Not trying to cheerlead you into another state of mind, or ask you to address why things of that nature haven't or wouldn't fit. I do think I understand much of how you feel, and think I feel much of the same. But I sure haven't found my way out, or tried very hard, through anything of the type I might mention to another. ;-)
Posted by Spoc on April 7, 2005, at 21:45:16
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 18:53:34
... oh! Or a lawyer, along the lines of perceiving all those angles you obviously can, and packaging them very well.
Ok, I know many more will occur to me but you get the idea: that I bet there are plenty of markets for what you have. But not meant as an argument for something.
Posted by used2b on April 7, 2005, at 23:54:11
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance, posted by Susan47 on April 7, 2005, at 19:44:43
I don't know anything about your father on which to even generalize, but attachment to life is an emotional choice, not a rational choice. Human culture can appear quite farcical to a mind accustomed to reason but void of emotion.
Posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 0:08:06
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » used2b, posted by Spoc on April 7, 2005, at 21:07:10
> I just wanted to pay you ...
I wish someone would. Thing is, for the most part, the world doesn't want another lawyer, activist, professor or whatever ... at least not one with too much insight. Communities might want people who see things a little differently, but generally, at least in the Western industrial societies where I have lived, they prefer to restrict their associations to include only those who view the world the same way they do.A person who tends to see more and who can articulate alternate viewpoints can either be smart enough to be born rich, create some artsy lifestyle that postures for the affection of the dominant community or keep their big mouth shut.
Posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 9:37:50
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Spoc, posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 0:08:06
> > I just wanted to pay you ...
>
>
> I wish someone would.
> in the Western industrial societies where I have lived, they prefer to restrict their associations to include only those who view the world the same way they do.
> A person who tends to see more and who can articulate alternate viewpoints can either be smart enough to be born rich, create some artsy lifestyle that postures for the affection of the dominant community or keep their big mouth shut.I was just noting that you obviously have marketable skills; true I wouldn't know if there is a market for you to advance your beliefs. But taking a position that isn't about that doesn't necessarily involve selling out either (and we can often 'sneak' in more of ourselves once we get a foothold in other ways).
But I guess I may have run with a different meaning than you intended, about the market for "squarely situated heads."
Posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 10:15:11
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » used2b, posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 9:37:50
Ultimately, everything we know about the universe is mere belief, but practically, my cultural estrangement is not rooted in the beliefs I hold, but more likely in what I don't believe. It only takes a failure to smile at the right moment, or even failure for the eyes to track and dialate in response to the right stimulus, to betray a lack of faith in cultural constructs.
Positions are not always available for the "taking." People often would rather associate with a person who peers beneath their garments than one who can see into their souls. The tendency to see through temporal beliefs that comprise human culture seems to put people off. There are likely more meanial jobs than those that would use my best perceptual skills, but for one thing, why bother ... if I'm not welcome in this world why fabricate a lesser more acceptable false self? For another thihng, even if I act mute, insight can be more of a burden than an asset if a person's insight doesn't support people's prevailing world view.
Posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 10:57:19
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Spoc, posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 10:15:11
Oh, I do get you on that too. Usually people who tend to end up in... sticky situations due to the assessments they offer (invited or not) are advised to consider that it happens because of some bias, projection, etc. in themselves. And surely it sometimes does. But in large part, like you I also virtually "know" that in reality, I can just hit too close to home. If it's a rather benign subject the "recipient" may find it uncanny, fascinating and welcome, but...
And yes, I also feel that this part of ourselves seems to require too much suppression for comfort or sometimes fairness. In many situations though I can see that I may as well suppress it, when there is really no link to anything that concerns or affects me, etc. And if I'll likely be the one pays in the end, if only through agitation, for no real benefit or purpose.
But I do think there are outlets for your skills that would even allow venting the angst of all this. A very crafty lawyer will indeed always be in demand (matter of fact, a big vacancy just opened up), and the most skillful hardly come across as mere mouthpieces. To the supreme frustration of many, they can redefine just about any principle or situation.
Or of course, they could mostly choose cases that will in fact be advancing their own beliefs somehow.
There would still be the matter of typical biases in verdicts, but at least you'd have technicalities and loopholes and mere 'snowing' of people to work with, and I bet you're very quick and would be quite good at such things.
But I try and/or practice nothing of which I preach when it comes to identifying and pursuing a suitable career, so again I'm certainly not trying to advise anything.
Posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 11:59:02
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » used2b, posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 10:57:19
Let's just stipulate that I am not likely to attend law school, pass a bar exam and begin practicing law.
I could be employed by a lawyer, but unless you can direct me to someone who needs a particular service, looking for work at a law firm because it seems to fit my personality would be about as likely to improve my lot as would chasing a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Of course, since you don't know what skills I hold and I'm not about to post them, you don't have much way of accurately guessing how or where I might find rewarding employment.
Posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 12:24:00
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Spoc, posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 11:59:02
> Let's just stipulate that I am not likely to attend law school, pass a bar exam and begin practicing law.
Fine, but then you can't state that there isn't a market for you either.
> I could be employed by a lawyer, but unless you can direct me to someone who needs a particular service,
Ahh, few of us receive the luxury of being directed to what is right for us.
> ...looking for work at a law firm because it seems to fit my personality would be about as likely to improve my lot as would chasing a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
Don't agree or find that to be sound reasoning, but that is also fine, wasn't here to change your mind about anything, nor to justify myself.
> Of course, since you don't know what skills I hold and I'm not about to post them, you don't have much way of accurately guessing how or where I might find rewarding employment.
Wasn't asking, and was stipulating all along that I am not and couldn't be up to speed on you, and am not and couldn't be advising anything. I thought you had been soliciting input of various kinds by starting this thread. (And as you are espousing yourself, no one's view or definition of input is the only one, or can/should be predicted.) My input was only to attempt to compliment you. And yes I'm done with that now.
So how about a bunch of smileys and (((hugs))) then. ;-)
Posted by kid47 on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:33
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » Spoc, posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 0:08:06
Hello. Pardon the intrusion, but this thread has struck a chord with me. At the risk of sounding immodest I must confess, I believe I possess more than just a modicum of insight. Some might consider this just good luck born of a gene pool predisposed to such things. I feel it is pretty much the bane of my existence. It is truly for me a curse. My only hope is this perception I have of superior insight is merely a manifestation of dillusional thinking.(which I have been acused of more than once) I am often told however, that I seem to recognize, embrace and too often articulate every conceivable contingency of a given situation. It has the effect of paralyzing me and make even simple decisions sometimes excruciating. Prioritizing is nearly impossible and any attempts at establishing a belief system that I don't feel is hypocritical and only self serving (and maybe that's just what the fulfillment of a spritual need actually is) very difficult to develop. Right now I feel a bit overwhelmed even trying to explain the intricacies and nuances of all that. I may be a bit off track (I am prone to tangents) but at a gut level I do feel a connection with what you are posting.
Peace
kid
Posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 13:14:12
In reply to Re: Insight » used2b, posted by kid47 on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:33
> I am often told however, that I seem to recognize, embrace and too often articulate every conceivable contingency of a given situation. It has the effect of paralyzing me and make even simple decisions sometimes excruciating. Prioritizing is nearly impossible ....Right now I feel a bit overwhelmed even trying to explain the intricacies and nuances of all that. I may be a bit off track (I am prone to tangents)
What do you think the chances are that I say A-EFFIN'-MEN to that!!!!! (And oh my, you KNOW I don't usually bring out such big language guns here. ;)
> but at a gut level I do feel a connection with what you are posting.
>
> Peace
> kidI sure did too, just wasn't coming across I guess or happened to put focus in another place, in my desire to spare my always-smoking brain from any remotely non-simple aspects here. (Kiddo, 1.5 feet out the door again, so if I miss you anywhere... I'll miss you. ;-)
Posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 13:18:36
In reply to Re: Can't afford the maintenance » used2b, posted by Spoc on April 8, 2005, at 12:24:00
> > Let's just stipulate that I am not likely to attend law school, pass a bar exam and begin practicing law.
>
> Fine, but then you can't state that there isn't a market for you either.
>Yes, I can. And I can state that I will not likely be an astronaut, the President of the United States or the Pope. One need not deploy a product or service to determine the likely marketability of a concept. My knowledge of my age, income history, academic history, professional history and law practice in general is sufficient to tell me there i am not likely to develop a market with the resources available to me. A career counselor with access to my resume would reach the same conclusions.
> Ahh, few of us receive the luxury of being directed to what is right for us.
>Not by way of complaint, but yes, certain groups do enjoy career tracks that lead toward rewarding outcomes, thanks to adequate capitalization and abundant guidance.
> > ...looking for work at a law firm because it seems to fit my personality would be about as likely to improve my lot as would chasing a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
>
> Don't agree or find that to be sound reasoning, but that is also fine, wasn't here to change your mind about anything, nor to justify myself.
Well, it might satisfy you if I went looking for a job at a law firm, but I see no potential benefit in pursuing such a track merely because someone on the internet said, based on very little knowledge of my abilities, that i might fit in there or somewhere else.
>My input was only to attempt to compliment you. And yes I'm done with that now.
>Fine, then. But I already know my valuable assets. No, I have not approached every living person on Earth today and explored how my life might be valuable to them. Systematically, I have found what I represent about my lack of acceptance in capitalist culture to be true. I'm not going to tell you enough about myself to allow you to understand, and I'm not going to affirm an uninformed argument contrary to my experience. I will not entertain a notion that some linguistic psychological magic can effectively probe and amend the reasons my professional skills are underappreciated. I've recognized it in my life over many years and that's that.
> So how about a bunch of smileys and (((hugs))) then. ;-)No, and no kisses, hand holding or general bonding, either. It might all be real to you but it is all pretense to me.
Posted by used2b on April 8, 2005, at 13:43:51
In reply to Re: Insight » used2b, posted by kid47 on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:33
> Hello. Pardon the intrusion, but this thread has struck a chord with me.
No intrusion. Messages at this board can be posted by "Dr. Bob" and by other members of the group, and can be read by anyone with Internet access.
> My only hope is this perception I have of superior insight is merely a manifestation of dillusional thinking.(which I have been acused of more than once)
The idea that increased insight is superior might be grandiose, and any attribution of value to insight outside a proven context might be dillusional. But the insights are most likely a result of real etiology and the underlying perceptions are likely often coherent.
Genetics most likely play some role, but I suspect it has to do with thalamic gating. Aculturated people limit information available to there cerebral processes by training thalamic responses to familiar stimulus. Maybe it is the result of trauma, transience, training, disillusionment, genetics or some other factor, but some people's thalamus doesn't as readily limit the flow of information to the cerebrum. Uncontrollably open gates at the thalamus are likely related to schizophrenia and other disorders, but not everyone who walks around with an open thalamus is severely disabled. Those who can dialate their thalamic busses while retaining some sort of socially acceptable mental organization end up with capacities you seem to describe and I seem to recognize from my own experience.
> Prioritizing is nearly impossible and any attempts at establishing a belief system that I don't feel is hypocritical and only self serving (and maybe that's just what the fulfillment of a spritual need actually is) very difficult to develop.
Difficulty in prioritizing possible outcomes could be related to some loop in the back-end of the forebrain, where signals are assessed for continued consideration or immediate action. But those difficulties could as much be a product of your experiences as they could be a fundamental psychopathology. The problem with social difficulties arising from unusual neurological organization is that we often have layers of secondary symptoms, many of which develop their own momentum and can appear primary. Communities don't generally care how or why one is different, they just don't want to have to deal with unusual differences, especially those that tend to call into question their own social order.
>Right now I feel a bit overwhelmed even trying to explain the intricacies and nuances of all that. I may be a bit off track (I am prone to tangents) but at a gut level I do feel a connection with what you are posting.
>
> Peace
> kidNo, I think you represent quintessentially the condition I deal with. I would schedule you for PET scans if I had a budget to research this.
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