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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 74. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 17:40:22
One of my officemates and his wife is vegan. After a lot of thought I have to say that I agree on moral grounds. I do.
But no milk, cheese, sour cream, cheesecake, honey, (and of course meat) etc requires a radical change in eating habits. No milk chocolate - only dark. Even the innocuous flavours of chips (like salt and vinegar) usually have a milk powder based flavouring...
If one really wants meat then roadkill is ok (depending on where you live I guess)
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/animals/possum_pancake.htm
But I still go on doing it
Even though I believe it is wrong.Maybe I should start out by one day per week and extend it from there...
Inspiring ideas anyone?
(Soy milk is yuk - though I don't mind the icecream)
Posted by AdaGrace on November 26, 2004, at 18:48:56
In reply to Any vegans out there?, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 17:40:22
Meat meat, I like meat.
Sorry to say, but I am a meat kinda gal.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 18:54:22
In reply to Re: I like meat » alexandra_k, posted by AdaGrace on November 26, 2004, at 18:48:56
I quite like meat too.
I like chicken
And I like medium rare steak.But I do not like that chickens get tubes shoved down their throats and that they are forced fed until their stomachs explode so as to get them as meaty as possible first.
So I would rather not eat chicken
In protest of this inhumane exploitation of animals.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 18:54:55
In reply to Re: I like meat » AdaGrace, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 18:54:22
Posted by Dinah on November 26, 2004, at 19:25:37
In reply to Any vegans out there?, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 17:40:22
I gave up pig first. Now I'm pretty well along on cow. If they'd come up with a really decent substitute to put in spaghetti bolognese...
Some of my best friends as a child were cows. It makes me feel sort of bad to eat them.
A few of my son's friends are vegetarians, and I talk about their choice in glowing terms to my son. I also make sure he knows he's eating pig and cow, not pork and beef.
I'd have trouble giving up dairy and eggs, even though I did my ethics course term paper on mass farming methods, so I'm familiar with the unfortunate lives these animals lead. A far cry from my grandparents' cows and chickens. :(
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 19:32:27
In reply to Re: I like meat » AdaGrace, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 18:54:22
> But I do not like that chickens get tubes shoved down their throats and that they are forced fed until their stomachs explode so as to get them as meaty as possible first.
I don't believe you've got the details correct. Foie gras is produced by force-feeding of ducks or geese. But it hardly makes sense to burst the animals' stomachs, though I guess that might happen.
Lar
Posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 20:05:35
In reply to Re: I like meat » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 19:32:27
I am 100% vegan at home, and when I go out to eat, I am vegetarian because I do eat a little dairy and sometimes fish although it's rare.
I first became a vegan for ethical reasons, but I was still eating a lot of junk food and diet coke. Then I started learning more about nutrition and the benefits of eating a plant based diet. Over the course of a year, I drastically changed my diet. Now I eat a great deal of minimally processed, fresh raw fruits, vegetables, seeds and nuts. I've lost over 40 pounds in that time.
I have some serious health problems that I've had for decades, but my health has drastically improved. I used to sleep a great deal throughout the day, now I hardly ever take naps, and my energy level is good. My skin never breaks out any more. I can be in a room full of sick people, and I don't catch what they have. I am much less depressed than I used to be. I still have bouts, but not nearly as many. I'm less achey. I used to get painful stiff necks, and I haven't had one since changing my diet. I used to suffer from acid reflux, now I don't. I exercise regularly now too. The list is quite long.
It's good to live up to my own convictions regarding animal cruelty. My conscience bothered me when I was eating meat. Becoming a health conscious vegan has changed my life for the better in every respect.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 20:13:13
In reply to Re: I like meat » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 19:32:27
> > But I do not like that chickens get tubes shoved down their throats and that they are forced fed until their stomachs explode so as to get them as meaty as possible first.
>
> I don't believe you've got the details correct. Foie gras is produced by force-feeding of ducks or geese. But it hardly makes sense to burst the animals' stomachs, though I guess that might happen.
>
I believe she is correct, I've also read that fowl (turkeys, ducks) are often force fed with tubes in order to fatten them quickly and efficiently for market, as well as for pate, and the stomach bursting is a not unusual side-effect.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:17:56
In reply to No, but my non-mammal eating is coming along, posted by Dinah on November 26, 2004, at 19:25:37
I don't think that I could ever really get very much into meat substitutes. Tofu is disgusting (in my opinion) - but I have had a good vegetarian spaghetti bolognese that I do believe was made with minced tofu. The sauce flavours it well (sundried tomato and basil pesto is best) and I didn't even know it was vegetarian until after I had eaten it (the hosts wisely decided not to inform me until then!)
That is a good idea to start with consciously not eating one kind of animal. I am curious about your choice, though, it is as Homer Simpson says: pigs are 'wonderful, magical animals' because there is bacon and ham and pork and ribs... Kind of the potato of meats :-)I think I will have trouble giving up dairy. Especially as I live in one of the best farming areas in the world and dairy (and even meat) is fresh and fairly cheap (though we export the best meat).
But, yeah, maybe vegetarian first and if that works out okay, then I can work on my soya substitutes.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:20:27
In reply to Re: I like meat » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 20:13:13
Now I did hear that from my office mate who is typically a reliable source, however, I won't push the point because it may be off...
There are still plenty of other reasons, though, so even if that one is a vegan myth I don't think that is fatal to the cause...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:25:01
In reply to Re: metamorphosis, posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 20:05:35
Hey there Cass, good for you!
Maybe I will get more into my health as I get a bit older or something... I am typically pretty self destructive and live on junk food etc etc so I am not sure that an improvement in health is much of a motivation for me.... But then perhaps it is as you say, start out for ethical reasons and then I might actually enjoy feeling healthy!
Do you take suppliments at all? I just wondered because I think my office mate and his wife have a drink made of soy milk and the powder you use to make plain yoghurt with a yoghurt maker once a day. I think there is some kind of vitamin / mineral that you can only get from dairy products (does k sound right???) and if you don't get it apparantly you will die soon enough :-(
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 21:42:58
In reply to Larry and Gabbix, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:20:27
> Now I did hear that from my office mate who is typically a reliable source, however, I won't push the point because it may be off...
>I've never heard of chickens being force fed, though they're subjected to enough other atrocities but according to P.A.W.S and P.E.T.A
frequently turkeys are force fed much the same way Fois Gras Geese and Ducks are. I don't think it's fatal to the cause either though.
I'm a vegetarian, I was vegan but gave it up simply because I moved to a small town in a farming area and it's a lifestyle impossible for me to keep up here. If I ask for a soya latte I get looked at like I just said I have a bomb.
Unlike many vegetarians I'm not opposed to the killing of animals for food, I'm sickened by the way they are raised. I actually have more respect for hunters who do it respectfully and for food, than I do for people who say they could never kill an animal, and have no problem buying factory farmed meat.
Posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 22:00:21
In reply to Re: Larry and Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 21:42:58
> > Now I did hear that from my office mate who is typically a reliable source, however, I won't push the point because it may be off...
You wrote "Chickens" not Turkeys, and I said I thought you were correct, and then I said, I'd never heard of Chickens being force fed..For some reason I read Chickens as Turkeys I think it's all this Thanksgiving stuff.
Posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 22:04:18
In reply to Re: metamorphosis, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:25:01
Hi alexandra,
The only supplements I take are MSM, and right now I'm taking chlorella. I don't know of any vitamin or mineral in dairy that you can't get from a plant source. Sometimes people forget about sprouts which are simply loaded with vitamins and minerals. I try to eat a lot of them. I also drink wheatgrass juice which has all of the known vitamins and most minerals.
I don't use any soy products or substitute meat products. They are usually highly processed, and I don't particularly like them.
Discovering the health benefits of a plant based diet has been a genuine adventure for me. A lot of practically miraculous changes have taken place, i.e., better health, appearance, mental and emotional health, energy...
I certainly didn't make the transition overnight though. There has been a lot to learn. A lot of adjusting and refining. A lot of slip ups. My diet still isn't perfect, but I'm aiming for progress, not perfection.
Posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 22:12:31
In reply to Re: Larry and Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on November 26, 2004, at 21:42:58
Hi Gabbix,
I agree with you. I refrain from eating meat because of the torturous conditions that most animals endure in factory farms. If animals were raised and treated humanely, I wouldn't be opposed to limited and humane killing of animals as a food source or otherwise. It's not so much the killing as it is the cruelty.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:24:52
In reply to Re: I like meat » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on November 26, 2004, at 19:32:27
ok, so it looks like they force feed ducks and turkeys but not chickens. My mistake, I imagine... What they do to chickens instead is they starve them to force them to drop their feathers so they can get back to the important business of egg laying...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:30:25
In reply to Any vegans out there?, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 17:40:22
Hmm. I guess the living conditions of animals is what gets me the most.
But I don't like hunting or killing either.
And killing FOR FUN??? What the??? I mean virtual killing is one thing, but actually taking another beings life just because one can...
It is not like we need to eat them in order to survive anymore.
I would rather refrain from causing pain and suffering.
Animals have their own goals and needs and preferences and we subvert those for our own ends. That is what I am opposed to.
But then others have already made the move, and I am still just talking about it.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:32:20
In reply to eating animals., posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:30:25
Posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 22:36:48
In reply to eating animals., posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:30:25
alexandra,
What you wrote reminds me of a quote by Alice Walker:
"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or women for men."
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:39:09
In reply to Re: eating animals. » alexandra_k, posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 22:36:48
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:45:15
In reply to Thats great Cass, thanks (nm), posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:39:09
Actually this issue first came up for me when I studied 'Environmental Ethics'. That was a fair few years ago now though.
I remember reading stuff on an 'athropocentric' as opposed to 'e?????pocentric' worldview.
The athropocentric (human centered) world view is promoted by the idea that humans are the 'most evolved' of the species, and / or the idea that god gave us the animals to use however we want.
The other one (can't remember what it is called) puts the ecosystem at the center of the worldview.
"The Land Ethic" is a major for advocating this one. From the perspective of the land ethic 'massive human diebacks would be good' (for the ecosystem).
The universe doesn't revolve around us humans.
We have reason to refrain from doing harm.
Not cunning to exploit...
Or at least, we have the choice
Posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 23:49:19
In reply to Re: Thats great Cass, thanks, posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 22:45:15
>
> The athropocentric (human centered) world view is promoted by the idea that humans are the 'most evolved' of the species, and / or the idea that god gave us the animals to use however we want.
>Thanks for bringing that up. I don't agree with the anthropecentric point of view. It doesn't make sense that being evolved (and that's subjective) gives us the right to abuse or torment other creatures. We are certainly not spiritually evolved if we confine living, feeling creatures in torturous conditions.
I'm no expert on the bible, and I personally don't believe that the bible is "the word of God,"
but I do believe that the idea that God gave us animals to do with as we please, including eating them, isn't really supported by the bible.
Here are a couple of biblical quotes that support a plant based diet:Genesis 1:29 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
Psalm 104 says that the vegetation is for the service of man ..."14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;"
There is a passage in the bible about eating meat, but from what I understand, the word "meat" did not originaly mean the flesh of animals; it simply meant "food." There is also something that says that man should have dominion over animals, but who knows what the original meaning of "dominion" was. There's an alternate interpretation of it here: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=dominion+over+animals&page=1&offset=1&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D13fc8d5c906627ab%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Ddominion%2Bover%2Banimals%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fbibletools.org%252Findex.cfm%252Ffuseaction%252FTopical.show%252FRTD%252Fcgg%252FID%252F2163%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPToolbarNS%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fbibletools.org%2Findex.cfm%2Ffuseaction%2FTopical.show%2FRTD%2Fcgg%2FID%2F2163
and here: http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=dominion+over+animals&page=1&offset=1&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D13fc8d5c906627ab%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3Ddominion%2Bover%2Banimals%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.essene.com%252FVegetarian%252FDidGodGiveHumansDominionOverAnimals.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPToolbarNS%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.essene.com%2FVegetarian%2FDidGodGiveHumansDominionOverAnimals.htm
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:22:10
In reply to Re: Thats great Cass, thanks » alexandra_k, posted by Cass on November 26, 2004, at 23:49:19
Yeah, I don't like the athropocentric world view much either. It is simply wrong to say that we are 'most evolved'; it is not like we are the 'best' or are at the 'top'. Evolution is like a tree where there is a single trunk (ancestor) and all the different species are just different branches or twigs. Everything that exists today is similarly evolved because it all exists TODAY (at least thats one way we can look at it). It is true that we have distinctively human attributes, but then dogs have distinctively canine ones etc etc.
I liked your links. My understanding (though I may well be wrong) was that (according to the bible) people didn't eat meat until... some point where they were supposed to sacrifice them and then were told they could eat them too.
I have read a lot of stuff about how it is biblical that we have 'dominion' over the animals and so it was very interesting to me that your link challenged that and challenged the correct interpretation of 'dominion'.
(It is kind of like how the interpretation of 'soverignty' is a hot topic in NZ because according to the Treaty of Waitangi Maori should retain their 'soverenty'. - not sure how to spell that, they are probably both wrong!)
I also take the point that people try to argue for all sorts of stuff on the basis of the bible...
I think that there has been work done, however, on how established religion (perhaps rather than the bible explicitly) has taught that animals are gifts from god for us to do what we want with. Perhaps it is also because the differences between humans and animals are emphasised rather than the continuities... I dunno.
I just think it is wrong to subvert the interests of another for our own. Especially when there is little reason for it and it is unnecessary and unnecessarily cruel.
Of course we can argue about whether animal research is ok etc etc, but food is different: we simply do not need to eat animal products in order to live healthily.
But of course I am preaching to the converted :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:29:21
In reply to Re: Thats great Cass, thanks » Cass, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:22:10
'Genesis 9, the text often cited as justification for eating animals, is recognized by most theologians as either a very temporary post-flood concession (all vegetation had been destroyed)'
I do worry about this though. There is only two of every animal at that time so ya can't go eating them!
Also: Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then they had children. But to get the next generation you need their children to do the wild thing (and this is of course assuming that Adam and Eve also had girls which just happened to be neglected by god when he wrote the bible...)
However... thats another topic :-)
Posted by Cass on November 27, 2004, at 0:47:59
In reply to Re: Thats great Cass, thanks » Cass, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2004, at 0:22:10
> Of course we can argue about whether animal research is ok etc etc, but food is different: we simply do not need to eat animal products in order to live healthily.As a vegan, I try to avoid things that have been researched or experimented on animals. The beauty of having gone to a plant-based diet is that my health has improved to the point that I almost never need medication anymore.
I'm not saying that a plant-based diet is a panacea, but I'm sure animal experimentation for drugs would be minimal if people improved their health by becoming health conscious vegans. Drug companies wouldn't like that too much. By the way, I say "health conscious vegans" because it is possible to eat badly as a vegan. Processed foods like refined sugar, iodized salt ...
FYI, I really respect you for your ethics, alexandra :)
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