![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 17, 2002, at 9:59:59
Dinah:
May I ask what type of dogs you breed? Just curious because I'm an avid dog lover.
- KK
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2002, at 8:36:46
In reply to Dinah - dogs..., posted by Krazy Kat on January 17, 2002, at 9:59:59
> Dinah:
>
> May I ask what type of dogs you breed? Just curious because I'm an avid dog lover.
>
> - KKKat,
Of course you may ask. Unfortunately my OCD is acting up. I don't think it will let me get more specific than spaniels. But if you want to come over to PB Open tonight, I'll be happy to talk about it there. (My OCD has very strange rules). That is, if my computer isn't acting up. I couldn't get on the internet at all yesterday. :(
It's funny. I'm feeling really good right now, and when I'm feeling good, the OCD really seems to act up. When I'm feeling depressed, the OCD leaves me alone. Oddest thing. I read somewhere that instead of bipolar spectrum it should be multipolar spectrum. Oh well, hope you can make it to Open.
Dinah
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 18, 2002, at 9:39:30
In reply to Re: Dinah - dogs..., posted by Dinah on January 18, 2002, at 8:36:46
Dinah:
Spaniels is enough. :) I would love to talk about it more on Open, though. Perhaps tonight, or Sunday? I am so dog crazy. I'm sure it's out of hand. My sister has % dogs - we have 3. All 8 of them were together at Christmas.
"My OCD has very strange rules" - I love this phrase. I have OCD tendancies, too, which are worse when I'm not on a stabilizer. I'm going to use your phrase if you don't mind:
"My Manic Depression has strange rules." I just love it!
- KK
Posted by Gracie2 on January 19, 2002, at 23:49:10
In reply to Dinah - dogs..., posted by Krazy Kat on January 17, 2002, at 9:59:59
I've always had questions about dogs but wasn't sure it was appropriate on PSB, so I'll try to stick to the psychologic aspects? We had two dogs, both purebed, first a black labrador and then a golden retriever. The black lab was an excellent guard dog, although I don't believe they're known, particularly, for this trait. We
had to put him down last month because he was nearly blind and so arthritic that he was in constant pain (my husband walked around in shock for two weeks).
The retriever is still just a few years old. He's beautiful to look at and affectionate with everybody, and he's helped quite a bit with my husband's grief. But he's not much of a guard dog.
We live in an old part of the city that's just being rebuilt, and there's still a lot of crime.
My husband is a firefighter and I'm by myself at home a lot of nights. I don't feel safe without a guard dog but I don't know that much about dogs, as far as training them goes. I'm afraid of buying a dog that seems, at least to me, to be naturally aggressive, such as a pit bull or rotweiller.
What to you think about a German Shepard? They seem to be friendly but naturally territorial. Also, my husband might not be ready to accept another dog at this point...he still has the cremains of our old dog and is waiting until he can think of the exact right place to scatter them. The lab was like a child to him.
So I'm afraid the care and training of the new dog will entirely be my responsibility until my husband comes around, which I'm sure he will. He
loves dogs, but he's not ready to replace the old one quite yet. Help?
Thank you-
Gracie
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 20, 2002, at 10:07:47
In reply to Another question about dogs, posted by Gracie2 on January 19, 2002, at 23:49:10
Gracie:
I remember when you posted a while back about your older dog, and how difficult it was for your husband. I'm sorry he's gone on to doggy heaven, but it sounds like you all made the right decision to me. One of ours is 13-1/2 and has cancer. She's doing well now, but we must be prepared...
I've never owned a Shepard, but they are certainly wonderful dogs. My feeling is that if you get a dog while still young, under a year, you'll be able to "mold" him - we have a pit bull mix who was a little troublesome at first, but he's Great now. Sweet and funny and very loyal. And a great guard dog.
I certainly understand trepidations re: pits and rotties, though.
Near us in NY, the Monks of New Skete breed shepards that are supposed to be wonderful - they train them as well.
Keep in mind that even though your retriever is a sweetheart, she is large, and that can be a deterrant.
- KK
Posted by Gracie2 on January 20, 2002, at 13:01:28
In reply to Re: Another question about dogs » Gracie2, posted by Krazy Kat on January 20, 2002, at 10:07:47
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 20, 2002, at 14:30:37
In reply to Thanks KK (nm), posted by Gracie2 on January 20, 2002, at 13:01:28
Posted by Dinah on January 20, 2002, at 18:50:33
In reply to Another question about dogs, posted by Gracie2 on January 19, 2002, at 23:49:10
A well bred stable german shepherd can be a wonderful pet. My suggestion would be to go to some obedience dog shows and find some dogs with good temperaments and ask what lines they are from. There is a good deal of variability in temperament in any breed and definitely in a breed as populous as Shepherds. It would also be a good idea to see Mom dog and as many relatives as you can to assess temperament. You might try the breed rescue association as well to see about adopting an older dog with a suitable temperament. Then you would have a good idea of the dog's personality and it would already be trained. We adopted a relative's older dog when she could no longer care for her and got a better trained dog than I could ever have managed.
Don't rule out the other breeds though. My parent's standard poodle is as good a guard dog as any you could find. And so is my australian shepherd.
My condolences to you and your husband on the loss of your lab.
Dinah
Posted by finelinebob on January 25, 2002, at 0:04:06
In reply to Another question about dogs, posted by Gracie2 on January 19, 2002, at 23:49:10
> What to you think about a German Shepard? They seem to be friendly but naturally territorial. Also, my husband might not be ready to accept another dog at this point...he still has the cremains of our old dog and is waiting until he can think of the exact right place to scatter them. The lab was like a child to him.
> So I'm afraid the care and training of the new dog will entirely be my responsibility until my husband comes around, which I'm sure he will. He
> loves dogs, but he's not ready to replace the old one quite yet. Help?I lost my 5 yr old Shepherd to cancer last March, and I certainly understand your husband feeling like he's lost a child. Tasha was the best part of my life.
My best friend gave me a book that helped a lot -- Goodbye, Dear Friend by Virginia Ironside (ISBN 1861050313). I guess she's some sort of advice columnist in England, and wrote the book in response to much of the mail she's received over the years. One of the hard truths she brings out (as others have observed) is that because of most pets shorter life spans (can't say that about my therapist's parrot), we will probably lose them before we go ourselves. But for those for whom the thought of getting a new companion brings on thoughts of guilt (as if the pet that has died could ever be "replaced") or deeper grief, not wanting to bear the experience again, she suggested that our companions might say: "You had enough love to bring me into your life ... go love another instead of letting it go to waste."
... just don't get me started talking about Shepherds (too late!)
The thing about Shepherds is that just having one with you creates an image of being guarded ... I don't think any other dog has the same reputation for being protective (as opposed to mean or vicious or whatever ... of course, all generalizations that might apply to any dog or no dog regardless of breed or breeding). To take generalizations even further, if you get a Shepherd, you may want a female over a male. Female Shepherds tend to be more "possessive" and concerned about the "pack" than males. Since your retreiver's a young male, getting a female might head off some potential issues there as well in terms of dominance.
Forget New Skete, tho, if you're in the area ... they have a waiting list several years long and their dogs are quite expensive.
Another place to check would be guide dog schools. Not all dogs who go through the training get accepted, but make fine companions for people without special needs.
Dinah's suggestions about going to a show and checking out doggie parents are good advice (and show she's a conscienscious breeder herself! ;^). If a puppy would be too much, you may also be able to find a breeder willing to place an "older" dog done with competition as a companion dog. My breeder has done this with one of her Shepherds recently and was considering placing one or two others as well.
I don't think I could live very long any longer without a Shepherd in my life ... sorry, but I'm very biased about this breed. I think my Tasha was smarter than most of the people I've ever met, and she was certainly kinder than most New Yorkers as well ;^). My new friend Leyna -- 5 months old now -- is so different, yet so similar ... but I'd certainly be in much worse mental shape right now if she didn't come into my life when she did. She's very insistent on getting my attention if I've been at the computer too long and has no qualms about climbing into my lap (she's already hit 45lbs in weight) to pull me away from the screen.
cheers,
flb
Posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:02:26
In reply to Re: Another question about dogs » Gracie2, posted by finelinebob on January 25, 2002, at 0:04:06
> >She's very insistent on getting my attention if I've been at the computer too long and has no qualms about climbing into my lap (she's already hit 45lbs in weight) to pull me away from the screen.
FLB--that is a great image, lol.
One of the multitude of things I appreciate about dogs is how they always "ask" for what they want and if they get turned down, no problem, they just try again later. I love that calm, directed perseverence, and it's a good role model for me, too!
Shar
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 26, 2002, at 1:34:16
In reply to Re: Another question about dogs » Gracie2, posted by finelinebob on January 25, 2002, at 0:04:06
O.K. I'm going to be petty:
"Forget New Skete, tho, if you're in the area ... they have a waiting list several years long and their dogs are quite expensive."
I was just trying to offer a starting point, flb. I know a great deal about our canine friends. All of my pups are from a rescue league but it is smarter for someone looking for a specific type of dog, to start with a well bred puppy.
- KK
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 26, 2002, at 1:41:22
In reply to Re: Another question about dogs » Gracie2, posted by finelinebob on January 25, 2002, at 0:04:06
I'm sorry for this post, but I feel the need to assert myself.
I am a "dog writer" and have owned dogs all of my life. I guess I wish that somehow I would be recognized as such here. A very badly edited piece of mine is available at:
http://www.woofs.org/entertainment/articles/living.html
I'm sorry - I just feel like I should speak up about this. I'm sure flb knows a great deal as well.
-- KK
Posted by finelinebob on January 26, 2002, at 23:47:52
In reply to O.K. I'm going further...., posted by Krazy Kat on January 26, 2002, at 1:41:22
Well, if you know enough to get published on this topic, I doubt I know as much ... =^)
Of course, one could question how a Krazy ***KAT*** would have anything positive to say about DOGS in the first place ;^)
The comment about New Skete wasn't meant as a flame, just sound advice based on experience, some of it first-hand. My MD has been on their waiting list since 1998. The breeders I got my first and second Shepherds from have worked with New Skete, tho, and both dogs have some New Skete in their bloodline.
In fact, New Skete referred me to them in the first place. I had adopted a pup from the ASPCA here in NYC who died five days after I got her (and they put ME through a background check?), but in getting a dog I wound up buying one of the Monk's books. The dog I had rescued was part Shepherd, so between her and the book I was determined on getting a pure-bred Shepherd. This was Spring 1996. I tracked them down on the Web and gave them a call. It went something like this:
Monk: Hello, New Skete Monastery!
Me: Hi. I'm interested in finding out about adopting a dog from your monastery...
Monk: Well, the first thing you should know is there's about a 1 year wait list right now...
[long silence]
Monk: Would you like me to refer you to a breeder near you?
Two years later my MD signed up with them, and he's been waiting better than three years. That and my breeders know the Monks charge about twice what they charged themselves for a pup.Cheers,
flb
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 16:14:54
In reply to Re: O.K. I'm going further...., posted by finelinebob on January 26, 2002, at 23:47:52
Waiting a year for a dog is just not that big a deal. Often breeders plan ahead and a good six month wait is common.
I'm very sorry that your dog adopted from the ASPCA died so very soon. That is truly tragic. But comments such as "and they put ME through a background check?),?" are harmful for the concept of adopting dogs. All three of my puppies were adopted - I also just adopted a 6 + year old cat. And they're all great - 13 years, 9 years and 2 years.
Th monks seem to be very no-nonsense. Their instructions are sound, though perhaps a tad too narrow at times.
Although I love my dogs greatly, I see no problem in being on a "waiting list" for a specific breed. And, yes, they will absolutely check your background before you can even consider getting one of their puppies.
- KK
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 16:16:16
In reply to O.K. I'm going further...., posted by Krazy Kat on January 26, 2002, at 1:41:22
If you'll note, I stated that "I'm sure flb knows a great deal as well". So your snide comments weren't very much appreciated.
Posted by jane d on January 27, 2002, at 17:11:33
In reply to Also...flb, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 16:16:16
> If you'll note, I stated that "I'm sure flb knows a great deal as well". So your snide comments weren't very much appreciated.
KK - Are you OK? I really hesitated to ask this because I've always hated it when people assumed that a psychiatric label meant you couldn't be legitimately upset about something. I have to tell you however that I haven't been able to read insult into flb's posts (and I say this as someone who sometimes can see offense in absolutely everything myself). I didn't read them as snide any more than I read your statement above as being intentionally sarcastic. All I read was disagreement about the virtues of waiting for a dog - surely a strictly personal preference.
Jane
PS Thank you for posting the link to your work.
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 18:57:20
In reply to Re: Also...flb » Krazy Kat, posted by jane d on January 27, 2002, at 17:11:33
Jane:
It's actually really nice of you to ask - no, I'm not O.K. I've been cycling b/t manic and depressive excessively since I stopped and restarted Depakote. I took the following as "snide":
"Well, if you know enough to get published on this topic, I doubt I know as much ... =^)"
I think I'm being very overly sensitive and can't seem to stop it. I apologize to everyone. Also, when it comes to dogs, I tend to think I know more than just about anyone. :)
- KK
Posted by finelinebob on January 27, 2002, at 19:34:45
In reply to Re: Also...flb » jane d, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 18:57:20
It was a snide comment, but directed at myself, KK!
I honestly meant it about your side, tho. Having been an academic, I've published in areas of my own expertise. Seems to me getting published in the "dog" world could be tougher than what I had to go through in my discipline. So I **may** know **something** about dogs, but I do defer to you.
As for waiting lists -- of course they crop up where the demand is. I just wanted to be clear that if you go to New Skete, you'll be waiting a long, long time. Personally, I waited seven months after my first Shepherd died ... it took that long for things to "work out" with my breeder and her dogs. It was also about six months longer than I would have liked ... but I did wait.
Sure, breeders and shelters both should check into people who want to get a dog from them. But I've got cause for a grudge against the ASPCA. I was told that my puppy had been given a thorough vet examination and had received her shots. Three days after I took her home, she took ill. When I took her to my vet, he found she had a worm infestation so extensive he called her a "worm farm" -- round worms, hook worms, and whip worms. Since these don't grow overnight, I had to wonder how the ASPCA could have missed it ... other than incompetence. She wound up dying from hemorrhaging they caused in her intestines.
My friends were wise enough to point out that I did have three wonderful days with her and that, rather than dying alone in a shelter, she was also given those three days and died with someone who loved her the moment we met. Maybe that makes all my pain worth it. I still can't forgive their incompetence.
Hey, we all get touchy now and then. Take care.
flb
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:42:00
In reply to Re: Also...flb, posted by finelinebob on January 27, 2002, at 19:34:45
Certainly no need to defer to me - again, I'm sorry. Something's not right in my system.
Our middle dog, Kingfish, was diagnosed with distemper a few weeks after we got him from the SPCA. He had to stay at the vet for a week or so - we honestly thought he was going to die. That was the first time I'd seen my hubby bawl.
He came through it, though with one ear up and one ear down - some sort of nerve damage.
You did a great service to your puppy - I have no doubt that her life was sweeter b/c of you.
I've been interested in a breed called the Chinook for awhile - should probably have mentioned it in my original email. Their waiting list is forever b/c they're rare. They seem to be a cross between a husky and a lab.
Take care.
- KK
Posted by finelinebob on January 27, 2002, at 19:57:43
In reply to Re: Also...flb » finelinebob, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:42:00
> ...Something's not right in my system.
Hey, you and me and a couple dozen other folk around here!
> I've been interested in a breed called the Chinook for awhile ...
... now, I've heard of "bird" dogs and even "cattle" dogs and, of course, "sheep" dogs ... but a "fish" dog?! That's a new one on me.
;^)
flb
Posted by Gracie2 on January 29, 2002, at 9:07:00
In reply to Re: Also...flb » jane d, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 18:57:20
KK-
I can sympathasize with you. I have also been diagnosed as bipolar and agreed to do it "their" way with high levels of pyschiatric drugs, including Depakote, for long-term therapy. After six months, however, I was so lethargic that I could barely lift the TV remote. I was a mess, my house was a mess, and I had to quit my job. So I quit taking the drugs (warning: taper SLOOWWLLLY).I've been "clean" for a year now, but my bipolar symptoms have returned. In a manic phase, I can't sleep. I spend money we don't have, start a dozen projects I never finish, drink too much, play music too loudly and annoy everyone. My depressive phase has changed, however. Instead of being reclusive and uncommunicative as in the past, I've become angry. Everything irritates the shit out of me and I'm not very pleasant to be around. This isn't like me AT ALL. Usually I'm quite agreeable, if somewhat anti-social.
So here is my plan: new pyschiatrist (on Thursday) and no more drug cocktails. I'll agree to try one drug at a time, take it faithfully for the recommended period of time, and taper off it
slowly if it's not successful. Then I'll try another drug. I also intend to have much more input on the type of drug and dosage recommended,
although I'm aware some doctors dislike being "questioned". That's tough. The drugs I was taking before and the subsequent withdrawal put me through hell.
***
As for the second part of my question: I think you've been following my story about the black labrador that we recently lost. We had to put him down cause he was nearly blind and always in pain from arthritis despite the glucosamide, special food and painkillers recommemneded by the vet. Our lab was an excellent guard dog, and I'm so used to having him as "security" that I'm uncomfortable in the house without him.
We also have a 4-year-old golden retriever, a pedigreed dog with papers. I bought this dog for my husband when I became aware that our labrador was not going to live much longer, and I thought it would help to ease my husband's grief (it did).
Our golden retriever, Chief, is a beautiful male,
a loving, playful, dog, and an excellent companion. He also has the most expressive face I've ever seen on a dog - he "smiles" when he's happy, and his eyebrows move up and down in the most goofy way whenever he's perplexed. But he's not a guard dog. He doesn't bark at people, and all strangers are new friends to him.
But I'm worried about bringing home a Shepard. If it's a female puppy, I don't want Chief to be all over her. And he's so docile and submissive now, I'm afraid that if he we had him neutered, he would run in terror from the cat and never come from behind the sofa. Still, if we get an older Shepard, male or female, I'm afraid he might hurt the retriever. Doesn't one of them have to establish himself as the "alpha" dog?
Should I forget the whole thing and buy a shotgun?
Oops, can't, I've been in a mental hospital.One more question: would you suggest another breed? I'm afaid of rotweillers and pit bulls.
Thanks-
Gracie
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 29, 2002, at 11:30:30
In reply to KK - Drugs and Dogs, posted by Gracie2 on January 29, 2002, at 9:07:00
Gracie:
I feel very flattered that you asked me more about dogs and now I must think about it to keep up my reputation. ;)
Re: drugs: First I would make certain any dog you get is not addicted to drugs.
second - have you considered a home security system? I don't have one (I live in rural Saugerties, NY), but I think they're a lot more reasonable they used to be.
third - do you have any plans re: this new drug regime? When I started, I told my pdoc I would only take one drug at a time. But the side effects seemed to need to be counteracted by another drug along the way. Thus, I take three now.
I wonder if Lithium is the best bet for monotherapy?
I, too, have more trouble with irritability than I used to, though mine seems to be a warning sign that mania is coming on.
It's all so frustrating. I have trouble drinking sometimes, and that just makes it all much worse.
I'll write more later and would love to hear what you and your pdoc decide to start with.
- KK
Posted by finelinebob on January 29, 2002, at 18:25:48
In reply to KK - Drugs and Dogs, posted by Gracie2 on January 29, 2002, at 9:07:00
Sorry, but I've got to butt in about Shepherds ;^)
> But I'm worried about bringing home a Shepard. If it's a female puppy, I don't want Chief to be all over her. And he's so docile and submissive now, I'm afraid that if he we had him neutered, he would run in terror from the cat and never come from behind the sofa. Still, if we get an older Shepard, male or female, I'm afraid he might hurt the retriever. Doesn't one of them have to establish himself as the "alpha" dog?
Neutering a male dog isn't going to turn him into a wimp ... a lot of dominance behavior is learned, not regulated by hormones.
Have you seen Chief interact with puppies recently? It may wind up that the puppy would be "all over" him since puppies can just be so much more active and playful. But even if you don't neuter him, you should probably spay a female pup prior to her first heat. I don't know how KK feels about this, but the opinion of the three breeders and two vets I've worked with is that there is no need to let a female have her first heat before spaying her, and that preventing that first rush of hormones might even provide an extra percentage point or so of reduced risk for female-related cancers.
Also, don't interpret all "mounting" behavior as sexual in nature -- it's more a dominance thing in my experience. [Here in NYC with our dog runs (parks), that is perhaps the biggest misunderstanding people have about what their dogs are doing with one another, particularly when one dog mounts another dog of the same gender ... gahd!! The comments that draws!]
If you get an older dog, it's a good idea to have Chief meet the potential new sibling on "neutral" ground so that they can get to know each other without worrying about defending their home turf. If things go well, even scheduling a few "play dates" on neutral ground, if possible, can be helpful before bringing the new dog home. There still is going to be some jockeying for position--the new dog is going to have to figure out it's position with respect to the humans in the house as much as with Chief--but this doesn't mean that if (a) the new dog takes the lead among the dogs in the "pack" and (b) Chief is fine with that, that (c) the other dog is going to keep beating up Chief. If they both accept their place compared to one another, there shouldn't be a problem.
And if there is, from all that I have read, it'll be important to let the new dog know that YOU are the boss and don't approve of the fighting. If you and your husband provide enough leadership, any reasonably sound dog should follow it.
I've mentioned my new pup ... what I didn't say is that she (Leyna) has an older brother -- a 4.5 year old Pembroke Welsh Corgi (Zach). The day I brought her home, she was half an inch shorter than him. He grew up with my old Shepherd (Tasha) as an older sister by about a year. He learned to play pretty rough with Tasha because she let him, but she'd put him in his place if he went too far. Still -- like any Corgi -- he thinks he's the biggest dog on the block! Anyway, day one with Leyna, he pushed her around quite a bit and got a little vicious at first, but we let Zach know that was NOT allowed. He learned his limits quickly about how rough he could be, and he stuck to them unless Leyna got too rough. As for Leyna, she was cowwed for about that first day. Three months later -- she's pretty much the boss. Of course, Zach can walk underneath her belly now, too. He's not that happy all the time that she pushes her dominance, but he acknowledges it all the same.
> One more question: would you suggest another breed? I'm afaid of rotweillers and pit bulls.
If you're looking for a loud, fierce-sounding dog -- consider a Corgi. If you've got young kids, you have to be a bit careful in finding the right breeder and the right dog, but I've known a few Corgis who were extremely good with kids (Zach isn't ... tho he can come to tolerate them if they have treats). Otherwise, you have this short, squat, clown of a dog who will do just about anything for a laugh, but still act as if he or she is the biggest dog around. Since the breed was developed to herd cattle, they have to be loud and about as fierce as a badger. Zach has the loudest bark I have ever heard from a dog.
Between the two of them as to who is the better guard dog: Leyna, once she's grown, will LOOK more threatening given what people think of Shepherds. When it comes to being heard as opposed to seen, Zach has always been the better guard -- better than Tasha was and than Leyna will be. He won't bark all that much when were not home at people out in the lobby of our building (first floor apartment!), but if we're home and he hears even the slightest suspect noise, he is at the door barking like nuts.
cheers,
flb
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2002, at 18:33:13
In reply to Re: KK - Drugs and Dogs, posted by finelinebob on January 29, 2002, at 18:25:48
Sorry--I know this is REALLY tangential, but the post about the shepherd reminded me of a great short story I read recently called, "In Cuba I was a German Shepherd", by Ana Menendez.
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 30, 2002, at 21:17:54
In reply to Re: Dogs--Off on a tangent now, posted by Noa on January 30, 2002, at 18:33:13
I love posts about books that could be interesting. Thanks!!
- KK
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