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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 88. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2006, at 15:18:22
In reply to Re: What Is DBT Therapy? » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on March 24, 2006, at 10:28:53
I'm glad others are interested. I do want to do this, but I've got a backlog of stuff to deal with for the next week or two, and I may not be online as much as I'd like in the next few days.
I'll start a new thread below where maybe we can talk about how to go about doing this?
Yeah!
gg
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 29, 2006, at 15:36:03
In reply to Glad to hear of interest, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2006, at 15:18:22
I'm trying to source online skills manual resources for us.
It turns out my boss just happens to be good friends with Marsha Linehan *L*
Nikki x
Posted by zazenduck on March 29, 2006, at 16:49:48
In reply to Online resources for skills, posted by NikkiT2 on March 29, 2006, at 15:36:03
This is a good collection of DBT handouts. I like the monthly mood chart. Something I like about Marsha Linehan is how willing she is to share the handouts!
http://home.everestkc.net/vics/
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2006, at 13:17:00
In reply to Re: Online resources for skills, posted by zazenduck on March 29, 2006, at 16:49:48
There's also www.dbtselfhelp.com
You can download pretty much all of the handouts there, I think.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 9:39:55
In reply to Re: What Is DBT Therapy?, posted by rubenstein on March 25, 2006, at 9:35:09
Anyone still interested? I'd like to go ahead and at least go through it myself, but I'd love to have others join me.
I'm not sure exactly how best to do it, but we could set a rough time frame for different modules and the lessons in them. I would recommend starting with the Mindfulness module, and then we could either follow the book in order or vote on what module we wanted to do next.
Many of the lesson handouts are available online at www.dbtselfhelp.com , so those who don't have the book and can't get it from a library can still follow along with the exercises.
We could take turns facilitating the discussion for different sections so that one person isn't seen as the leader.
Any other ideas?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 10:28:21
In reply to Going through DBT skills training book together, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 9:39:55
Oh, I should link to the book:
"Skills Training Manual for Treating Borderline Personality Disorder" by Marsha Linehan.
And you don't have to be someone with borderline personality disorder to benefit from this, just fyi. Participating in this is not in any way saying you have BPD. All are welcome.
gg
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 10:28:27
In reply to Going through DBT skills training book together, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 9:39:55
Sounds great!
I'm bringing it up again with my therapist, but I'm not sure I want him to do the homework type stuff with me, so this would be perfect.
I'm still working on the deadline I missed three weeks ago, so if you could take the lead this time? I'll do it next time, if you like. And if someone else can take the next shift it wouldn't be overwhelming for anyone?
How long do they normally take for each module? Would there be different time requirements online?
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 10:29:35
In reply to Re: Going through DBT skills training book together, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 10:28:21
I don't know if the DBT self help site is down, gone, or if it's temporary. I'll see if I can find another resource.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 10:37:24
In reply to Re: Going through DBT skills training book togethe » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 10:28:27
> Sounds great!
Cool!
>
> I'm still working on the deadline I missed three weeks ago, so if you could take the lead this time?I can do that. I'm not sure about time frames. I think that we'd need a minimum of one week between exercises to give people a chance to do them and then post their experiences and feedback. But I'm thinking that two weeks between might be better given different schedules? I suppose if a discussion dies down, we could also agree to move on. And there may be times that someone has to play catch-up for whatever reason. Or they can skip stuff.
gg
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 11:23:15
In reply to Re: Going through DBT skills training book togethe » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 10:37:24
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 11:58:50
In reply to Sounds good to me :) (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 11:23:15
Apparently Dr. Linehan has released infro from the workbook to public domain.
http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/dbt.htm
gg
Posted by Jost on June 29, 2006, at 20:04:03
In reply to Re: Going through DBT skills training book together, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 10:28:21
I'd be interested. What/how would we be doing it?
Jost
Posted by Deneb on June 29, 2006, at 20:43:15
In reply to Re: Going through DBT skills training book togethe, posted by Jost on June 29, 2006, at 20:04:03
I'm not very good at this psychology stuff, but I want to see what this is about.
Just tell me what I need to do. :-)
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2006, at 10:16:28
In reply to Online resource, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 11:58:50
I wish there was some way I could lend out my videos. :( I sold a bunch of belongings once to buy her set of videos, convinced that it would be the key to curing me, but have only watched them once. :(
So when should we start, and do we need to do anything to prepare?
Posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:14:39
In reply to Re: Online resource, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2006, at 10:16:28
Those who said they were interested either in March or currently. (This does not mean a committment, just interest).
gg
Dinah
B2chica
Racer
Clear Skies
Rubenstein
Jost
Deneb
Canadagirl
Verne (mentioned it on another board in March)Anyone I missed, or anyone else interested?
Posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:16:17
In reply to Who's interested so far, posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:14:39
Potential content:
There are four modules: core mindfulness skills , interpersonal effectiveness skills, emotion regulation skills, and distress tolerance skills. According to the manual, the latter three can be covered in eight weeks each, although I think we might do better to allow two weeks between “assignments”, so likely we will need to go longer. The book also says to allow 2-3 sessions for the mindfulness skills. These skills are infused throughout the rest of the program, allowing us a chance to refine them and apply them fairly regularly.In each module there are “lessons” and activities that would be done in the group session, and then homework assignments. The homework is reviewed in the next “session”. So one way we could do this is to have someone (the current leader?) start a discussion about the current lesson/topic and describing the skills. We could take a week or some other amount of time to discuss it in a thread, and then take a week or two to do the homework and then post about it? Maybe Day 1 of topic: Start discussion thread. Day 5 (or 7): Assign/explain homework. Day 10 (or 14) start posting homework experiences. Going forward continue any discussion as needed about this, but at the same time (Day 14?) the leader introduces the next lesson? Or do we need to have a period of time to end discussion of current homework before moving on?
I also thought that maybe we could have a standard way of making subject lines that identify which module/activity it refers to. I think that would be easier for me, at least. And if someone gets behind, we could easily see what their posts refer to. For example, a subject line about the first Mindfulness lesson could include at the beginning: “M1” and then discussion. Or M1 homework. Or M1 question? Or M1 (specific issue/topic), etc. I don’t think we need to make this mandatory, but I think it would help.
Also, should these be all in one gigantic thread, or a new thread for each module? New thread for each lesson? Separate discussion and homework threads? Hmm, if this could be a large sticky thread (linked at the top) that could be helpful.
Another aspect of DBT skills training as it’s written is the use of diary cards. These are used to track specific behaviors and feelings, as well as track practice and use of the skills. I think that tracking is a useful thing, as our “impressions” of how we are doing are not always accurate. So I think there are two questions about diary cards. One, do we want to use them? And then if we do, do we want to share them either generally or specifically? There are also different versions of the diary card available. I found the following at: http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/diary_cards.htm
A few examples below.
Original card: http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/original%20diary%20card.pdf
Newer version: http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/DBT%20style%20mood%20chart%204-17-5.docThis one does not have a place to mark skills used, but it’s otherwise pretty good. The others are options as well. There may also be other versions out there, but I just clicked on the first google link. So if anyone finds something else, we can look at that as well. Links to the handouts and the book below:
http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/dbt.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898620341/drbobsvirte00-20Other ideas? Reactions? Suggestions for when to start?
Posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:23:55
In reply to Ideas about content and structure, posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:16:17
I also think we need to agree on some rules/guidelines for the group. Some for us to consider include:
· No one has to post or participate at any time if they don’t wish to.
· Maybe a statement or some other “consent” that this is a self-help process, agreeing that it is not therapy, not therapist or otherwise professionally led, it’s voluntary, etc. Do we need to talk about possible risks?
· Our interactions should be non-judgmental, supportive, constructive, etc. And how do we handle any incidences of incivility as a group (assuming Dr. Bob or non-participating deputies might intervene?…I would not feel comfortable acting as a deputy for these posts if I’m so involved. I suppose unless there’s something grossly inappropriate.)I’ve also thought of the following potential concerns that may or may not actually happen and may or may not need addressing either in advance or as they might occur. What concerns do others have?
· Anything we post about our skills practice or events going on will be archived in Babble. Will this present a problem/concern? I suppose we could form a closed yahoo (or some other) group instead of doing this here if it’s a strong concern.
· Others who are not participating will be able to read our threads as they develop. Some might choose to post comments or questions. Will this be an interruption or trigger? How should we handle these? A couple of thoughts I had about this: we could politely ask the person with the comment or question to begin a new thread, and anyone who wishes to participate in that dialog may do so. Or…(I cringe to even suggest this), maybe this would be a good trial for a small, closed board? (ducking…just an idea).
· If we rotate leaders, and more than one person volunteers to lead a module or even a week, how do we decide?
· How to handle any conflicts which might come up.
· How to handle triggers, and what constitutes a trigger (a big topic).
· How to handle disclosures: i.e. no one can share these with those outside of Babble? No one has to disclose. No pressing for details if the person does not wish to give details?
· Can people join at any time? Only at the start of a new module? If someone drops out, can they drop back in?What do you think? Any other concerns or suggestions? Anyone want to volunteer to write up the rules as a post when we agree to them?
gg
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2006, at 12:46:54
In reply to Ideas about content and structure, posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:16:17
> Potential content:
> There are four modules: core mindfulness skills , interpersonal effectiveness skills, emotion regulation skills, and distress tolerance skills. According to the manual, the latter three can be covered in eight weeks each, although I think we might do better to allow two weeks between “assignments”, so likely we will need to go longer. The book also says to allow 2-3 sessions for the mindfulness skills. These skills are infused throughout the rest of the program, allowing us a chance to refine them and apply them fairly regularly.
>
> In each module there are “lessons” and activities that would be done in the group session, and then homework assignments. The homework is reviewed in the next “session”. So one way we could do this is to have someone (the current leader?) start a discussion about the current lesson/topic and describing the skills. We could take a week or some other amount of time to discuss it in a thread, and then take a week or two to do the homework and then post about it? Maybe Day 1 of topic: Start discussion thread. Day 5 (or 7): Assign/explain homework. Day 10 (or 14) start posting homework experiences. Going forward continue any discussion as needed about this, but at the same time (Day 14?) the leader introduces the next lesson? Or do we need to have a period of time to end discussion of current homework before moving on?I think it's fine to move on. But one advantage to having separate threads for separate lessons is to have it be possible for people to go back to a lesson or catch up on lessons without confusing the current lesson. I think you suggested linking the threads on a central thread? I think I'd vote for that.
>
> I also thought that maybe we could have a standard way of making subject lines that identify which module/activity it refers to. I think that would be easier for me, at least. And if someone gets behind, we could easily see what their posts refer to. For example, a subject line about the first Mindfulness lesson could include at the beginning: “M1” and then discussion. Or M1 homework. Or M1 question? Or M1 (specific issue/topic), etc. I don’t think we need to make this mandatory, but I think it would help.That does sound good, and also separate threads would help.
>
> Also, should these be all in one gigantic thread, or a new thread for each module? New thread for each lesson? Separate discussion and homework threads? Hmm, if this could be a large sticky thread (linked at the top) that could be helpful.My vote would be a new thread for each lesson linked from a central thread.
>
>
>
> Another aspect of DBT skills training as it’s written is the use of diary cards. These are used to track specific behaviors and feelings, as well as track practice and use of the skills. I think that tracking is a useful thing, as our “impressions” of how we are doing are not always accurate. So I think there are two questions about diary cards. One, do we want to use them? And then if we do, do we want to share them either generally or specifically? There are also different versions of the diary card available. I found the following at: http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/diary_cards.htm
> A few examples below.
> Original card: http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/original%20diary%20card.pdf
> Newer version: http://home.everestkc.net/vics/Diary%20Cards/DBT%20style%20mood%20chart%204-17-5.doc
>Maybe people could share as they feel comfortable? Different people seem to have different comfort levels on what they feel comfortable disclosing.
> This one does not have a place to mark skills used, but it’s otherwise pretty good. The others are options as well. There may also be other versions out there, but I just clicked on the first google link. So if anyone finds something else, we can look at that as well. Links to the handouts and the book below:
>
> http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/dbt.htm
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898620341/drbobsvirte00-20
>
> Other ideas? Reactions? Suggestions for when to start?
>As soon as possible? I'm looking forward to it.
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2006, at 13:07:56
In reply to Potential concerns, ideas for rules, posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 12:23:55
> I also think we need to agree on some rules/guidelines for the group. Some for us to consider include:
> · No one has to post or participate at any time if they don’t wish to.
> · Maybe a statement or some other “consent” that this is a self-help process, agreeing that it is not therapy, not therapist or otherwise professionally led, it’s voluntary, etc. Do we need to talk about possible risks?
> · Our interactions should be non-judgmental, supportive, constructive, etc. And how do we handle any incidences of incivility as a group (assuming Dr. Bob or non-participating deputies might intervene?…I would not feel comfortable acting as a deputy for these posts if I’m so involved. I suppose unless there’s something grossly inappropriate.)I think those are good rules. And I'm sure incivilities would be handled under ordinary Babble guidelines. I'm with you about preferring not to deputize when I'm involved, unless it is a gross violation of the civility rules.
>
> I’ve also thought of the following potential concerns that may or may not actually happen and may or may not need addressing either in advance or as they might occur. What concerns do others have?
>
> · Anything we post about our skills practice or events going on will be archived in Babble. Will this present a problem/concern? I suppose we could form a closed yahoo (or some other) group instead of doing this here if it’s a strong concern.
> · Others who are not participating will be able to read our threads as they develop. Some might choose to post comments or questions. Will this be an interruption or trigger? How should we handle these? A couple of thoughts I had about this: we could politely ask the person with the comment or question to begin a new thread, and anyone who wishes to participate in that dialog may do so. Or…(I cringe to even suggest this), maybe this would be a good trial for a small, closed board? (ducking…just an idea).I guess there'd be the same advantages or disadvantages as always to an open and archived forum like this. People should use their customary judgement about disclosure. You would miss some of the advantages of a IRL closed group but would gain the advantages of someone becoming interested and deciding to join in in whole or in part.
> · If we rotate leaders, and more than one person volunteers to lead a module or even a week, how do we decide?
First post offering gets the job? And those who have led before wait until there is no leader forthcoming with time run out to volunteer again?
> · How to handle any conflicts which might come up.
With our customary tact and grace? And Dr. Bob to fall back on? I've never been involved in DBT. Is there a greater than ordinary chance for conflict?
> · How to handle triggers, and what constitutes a trigger (a big topic).
Given the topics covered in DBT, triggers are probably a definite issue. We request that people follow the trigger warning customs that appear to be in the process of becoming formalized on Babble? If anyone has any specific triggers, others try to be polite by pointing them out in the subject line?
> · How to handle disclosures: i.e. no one can share these with those outside of Babble? No one has to disclose. No pressing for details if the person does not wish to give details?
Definitely no pressing. On an open internet board like this, I'm afraid confidentiality will of necessity be limited.
> · Can people join at any time? Only at the start of a new module? If someone drops out, can they drop back in?
Because of the nature of this place, maybe the ordinary rules of DBT groups could be waived? Apart from all else there may be lurkers following who are moved to join in at any given point. Babble hospitality would indicate they be welcomed. Suggestions on reading the modules could be given as necessary, if it's clear someone has no idea what we're doing. I know it's not how DBT is usually done, but this isn't the usual forum either.
>
> What do you think? Any other concerns or suggestions? Anyone want to volunteer to write up the rules as a post when we agree to them?
>
> gg
>That seems reasonable. At the beginning or as things come up, after discussion someone could write up the conclusion we've come to, and post it somewhere along with other conclusions.
I'm wondering if Dr. Bob would let us enforce nonBabble rules?
Posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 22:05:10
In reply to Re: Potential concerns, ideas for rules, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2006, at 13:07:56
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2006, at 4:48:06
In reply to Re: Potential concerns, ideas for rules, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2006, at 13:07:56
> > · Maybe a statement or some other “consent” that this is a self-help process, agreeing that it is not therapy, not therapist or otherwise professionally led, it’s voluntary, etc.
>
> I've never been involved in DBT. Is there a greater than ordinary chance for conflict?
>
> Given the topics covered in DBT, triggers are probably a definite issue.
>
> Because of the nature of this place, maybe the ordinary rules of DBT groups could be waived?Would this *be* DBT? Or just discussing it?
> I'm wondering if Dr. Bob would let us enforce nonBabble rules?
It's something we could discuss...
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2006, at 4:56:33
In reply to Re: Potential concerns, ideas for rules, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2006, at 4:48:06
> Would this *be* DBT? Or just discussing it?It would not *be* DBT, as that involves much more than just the skills training. It also would not be DBT skills *training* as it occurs in individual or group psychotherapy. Instead, I am viewing this as a group of individuals with a common interest in developing these skills via a self-help approach. Instead of each of working through the workbook on our own, we agree to do it together in order to stay on track, give and receive feedback, and have support.
> > I'm wondering if Dr. Bob would let us enforce nonBabble rules?
>
> It's something we could discuss...When I suggested we might need "rules" or guidelines, I was thinking these would be things that the group would work to resolve together. I do think the babble rules still need to apply. If there were to be a major conflict, civility rules still apply, but I'd like to see us as a group try to deal with the conflict, as well. It would be a good opportunity to practice new skills! :)
Thanks for weighing in on this, Dr. Bob. I know that this could have implications for you if we are not clear about what this is and what this isn't.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2006, at 9:24:28
In reply to Re: Potential concerns, ideas for rules, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2006, at 4:48:06
We've been talking about this for a while, Dr. Bob. A lot of us want to practice DBT skills, but find the motivation is hard to come by in a solitary setting. So we're just practicing together. Clearly it's not a skills group per se. There's no overall leader, although we'll take turns starting up discussion in each individual chapter. It's not terribly unlike the thread that mainly Midnight Blue and I are doing on Health about weight (although others are certainly welcome to join in). If there are ways you would prefer we structure it, please let us know.
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2006, at 9:25:21
In reply to Should we start Monday July 10? (nm), posted by gardenergirl on July 1, 2006, at 22:05:10
Sounds great. Anything we should do before then? Download diary cards or handouts? Read anything from the skills manual if we have it?
Posted by canadagirl on July 2, 2006, at 14:39:14
In reply to Re: Potential concerns, ideas for rules » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2006, at 4:56:33
I like the idea of having headers for the threads depending on the heading of the section being discussed. I know I would get lost in a big thread, (um... and I don't know what a "sticky" thread is...)
I think the "rules" could have suggestions similar to terms of reference in a working group (is Dr Bob is concerned about the word "rules?") e.g., an understanding that we are not engaging in "therapy", that the members of the group are communicating information, the the group will review and comment on the sections, there will be a respectful environment,etc.
Anyway just a suggestion. I'm on vacation until July 9 so the 10th works for me; someone suggested that date?
I think this is a great idea by the way.
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