![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:45:34
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape, posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 12:26:10
> Wow...
> I dont know really how to respond to his conversation, except to say, in my opinion, it certainly goes far and beyond the civillity guidelines.
hmm .. interesting observation. Tell me more about your opinion if you would like.
> I respect the views that people have either pro or against hunting. I respect the different views on the morallity of the subject. I have mine, and I dont try to force them on others, and expect the same in return.
Yeh, me to. I might even advance the other side of this debate if I noticed it were being presented here as a farce instead of as an interesting human perspective.
> One final word.. I am born and raised in the southern part of the United States, our geographic location is one of the defining parts of our "morals". Those morals do not find rape acceptable.Broken --- I remember the night they drove old Dixie down. What happened between Atlanta and the Gulf coast was not acceptable by many peoples' standards, and might have wounded your family and mine for decades to follow.
>Who defines what is morally acceptable, or unacceptable, is a debate for another board.
I would be inclined to say in as much as those morals become the basis for law, they fit the definition of this board. I would refer back to your certainty about the proximity of the manner of discussion in relation to the guidelines as a more potentially productive subject about which to investigate inconsistency.
> I think the discussion was a valid and interesting one starting out.
I noticed it turning --- uh, north --- even at the outset, with the statement "what a farce". Perhaps I am still a bit sensitive for my earlier adminonishment at this board for disclosing what I perceive as farsical human activities.
>
> So.. and forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a comparison between hunting and rape?
>The explanation offered in this thread for why the comparison is okay under the present rules was that the actual activities or motives weren't compared, but instead the structure of the logic. Apparently one needs more logical discernment than I have developed to appreciate fine nuance in what is tolerable at this site.
Posted by broken on May 25, 2005, at 15:17:32
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 3:26:41
> > It made it morally acceptable to those people in that time and place.
>
> Ah... Moral relativism...
>
> >Or are you suggesting your morals now dictate what is morally acceptable now and always for everybody?
>
> Not *my morals*... But I believe there are universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc...
>
> One example might be:
>
> Torturing a baby for fun is morally wrong.
>
> > There might be a time when pouring sulfur dioxide into the air is considered immoral, but today few so consider it. Some people today consider dancing immoral, but others don't.
>
> Just because people may think morals are relative that doesn't mean morals are relative.And just because people believe that there is some universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc. Doesn't make it so either.
Ofcourse you are entitled to those beliefs, as I am entitled to mine. But your beliefs do not equal fact. They are what they are... Your beliefs. Mine are different, but they aren't fact either.
>
> If whatever a culture says goes...
>
> Then the holocaust is only wrong from our perspective now.
>
> If Hitler had won the war then I guess it would still be morally acceptable.
>
> Likewise the notion that black people aren't moral persons (they are no more than animals) and thus we don't really need to take their interests into account.
>
> Likewise the notion that animals (aside from our particular beloved pets) don't require to have their interest in remaining alive taken seriously when it comes to the 'fun' of us killing them.
>
> Do you really want to accept that conclusion???The only conclusion that I want to accept is that I am as entitled to my beliefs as you are. I believe that these comparisons are extreme to the nth degree. I believe that anyone that hunts would feel put down on accused by your comparisons. I believe the guidelines to civillity on this website have been put in place to keep such things from happening, and are being ignored throughout this entire thread.
But those are only my beliefs, and that doesn't make them fact.
> My specific point about rape was just supposed to illustrate that just because people do do something or just because a culture does think that something is morally ok that doesn't make it morally ok in the greater scheme of things.
>
>That might have been your intention, but again, as someone that hunts legally, abides by the laws of my nation, which (right or wrong) loosely define morals in place here, it appeared you were comparing hunting to rape.
Chris
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 0:12:01
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 25, 2005, at 12:28:57
> > Think of what you would want, then have the decency of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill.
>
> I want to die with my boots on. I don't know of any animals -- other than humans --- that want to wear my shoes.
>
> The rules on this board just confound me. A person is chastend by admin for calling it monsterous to recruit suicide bombers but people can go on at length about my alleged lack of decency for the manner in which I euthenize my pet and gather my food.
>Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets. I don't even know if you have any pets. I was speaking my point of view on the issue of huting in general ... if you feel attacked, there is little I can do. I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
> When, I wonder, did hunting become indecent? In 1800? Mabye 1776? How about 1500? Perhaps in the "year of our lord" aka "O" or maybe 33 a.d.?
>
Why inflict pain when we can achieve the same end without it? That is basically what I'm asking.> Oddly, firearms became more efficient more recently -- with the invention of smokeless powder, cartridged projectiles and rifled barrel that let hunters deliver more punch more accurately.
>
> Though many people classify their hunting activities as sport, others don't. Some adamently classify it as food gathering, especially in international treaties (regarding hunting of whales and seals by natives), and in other protected hunting practices by aboriginal nations. Is hunting food a privilage reserved as humane only for certain races?
>
I'm not against hunting in general if something is made of the animal that is killed. Killing for the sake of killing a living being is just pointless. I'm against the infliction of needless pain.Actually I am Aboriginal ... and it bother me that people go on and on about the "traditional" hunting. Its an abused notion. Want to hunt the "traditional" way? Ok, take a spear of knife and go find yourself a moose or whatever. My money is on the moose.
Personally, I feel no need or desire to "go back to the way things were". Why would I want to? Go back to not having heat, electricity, dying because of a simple infection and so on ... no thank you.
> For sake a clarity, head shots are rare and are not the recommended target -- for large game, vital organ shots are the standard. With small game, shotguns land scattershot anywhere in the body. With fish, they as often suffocate for lack of waterflow through the gills. And death for a fish at the hands of an angler is no different than the death they suffer flopping in the hold of a commercial fishing vessel. Unless you refuse to eat fish sticks, you paid someone to kill a fish like that when you buy a fresh salmon steak at the store.
Just because huting is "not worse" than commercial fishing is not a justification ... its a lame excuse. Mediocrity makes for a poor benchmark.
>
> Death by puncture wound to the head in the killing stall of a slaughter house isn't much different, albeit a bit quicker.Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.
>But then, once wounded, would you rather die sooner or later?
I would rather not feel the wound at all. That is what I would want.
>How about Terry Schiavo -- people said she should be kept alive no matter how badly injured was her brain. So letting a wounded animial have a few more hours to run in the woods, fueled by adrenaline and endorphines, well that's just more chance to live.
>
In my opinion, Terry Schiavo was not given a decent death. Granted her brain was dead so she didn't feel a thing ... but it was still hypocritical. They wanted her to die yet did not act accordingly ... they used a detour. A shot of morphine would have been sufficient. She would have left in minutes. If the goal is death (as it was with Terry or an animal that you hunt) just don't make the being who is to die suffer if you can avoid it. Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.> And yes, I've euthanized a pet by gunshot. My very humane neighbors asked that I do so. The death that pet suffered was far more humane than the deaths that neighbor caused or witnessed in the employ of the United States military. His stories made abu graib sound like a frat party by comparison.
Humans can be cruel I'm not denying that. Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.
If the gunshot is in the head and is a clean shot then death is instantaneous and this is humane. To me a humane death is a death by whatever form in which the victim does not feel pain (a head shot would accomplish that) or a very minimal amount of pain (like a sub-cu shot) and which leads to a quick death and can be carried out with a very high degree of reliability. In my opinion, its in the departments of speed and reliability that gunshot in the context of hunting fall short of the mark.
>
> How was that pet's death, in a natural setting, flopping for a few seconds after a gunshot to the head after being petted by her favorite human, any less humane than a painful prick to the paw while being held down by strangers on a cold steel table, after a few minutes or hours in a cage in a room full of other frightened animals?Again, a gunshot to the head can be humane. What I meant to say (again, my post was a general one and not directed at you per say) that for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period. As if the suffering of a pet is more important that that of a wild animal.
As a matter of fact I find it even more ironic that we let terminally ill patients linger for months enduring horrible pain when they have no hope of recovery and do not want to keep on living. Our pets get a painless euthanasia but our relatives can't. How messed up is that? To me every human being (not under delusions or whatever) should be free to choose when and how they die and even benefit from medical assitance to do so painlessly
>
> I could go further to explore the ethics of one person or group imposing their values on another, but in the context of this thread, I am more interested in the manner in which values are described, and how that does or does not fulfil the requirements of this site that people not insult others who might not agree with them.
>
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 1:42:24
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 0:12:01
> I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
I read the plain language of your post. I am a reasonably experienced and articulate reader. Beyond responding to what was written, I have had no "reaction".
> Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets.
> > > "Think of what ***you*** would want, then ***have the decency*** of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill."
Can you understand how a person would read that to mean if they do not euthenize their pet in some manner in which they would want to die, they are lacking in decency? If it doesn't mean that, can you explain why are you equating that with having decency?
> Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.Hmmm. I don't understand that am allowed to say here what I find good or commendable for other people to do.
> Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.I don't understand that I am allowed to say who might make a spectacle of anything. A news produceer might feel it their duty to provide the public information about controversial issues, and families might feel it their obligation to teneciously represent thier perception of a family members interests in court and in public venues.
> Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.hmmm. I don't understand that I am allowed to say what is sick and twisted for other people to do. My lack of understanding of my permission to say such things is informed by the thread below this, where were asked not to call people monterous for recruiting suicide bombers.
>
> ... for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period.I have not seen evidence that the great majority of pet owners in the united states or anywhere else A. take their pets to the vet to die or B. also run after animals wounded during a hunt.
> How messed up is that?I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 1:42:24
If one cannot state what one feels about certain things, then what good is a board. Is a discussion not the exchange of views, opinions, arguments?
To me there is a difference between stating an opinion and attacking someone because they have a different opinion than you. For example :
"I find it discriminatory that gay people can't marry". To me thats an opinion.
"If gay people are allowed to marry, doesn't that open the door to polygamous marriages?" To me thats challenging an opinion.
"You're againsts gay marriage, OMG! you are so stupid / evil / etc." To me that is an attack."
From what I understand we are free to post our opinions and to challenge that of others here but not allowed to attack others because of their opinion.
When I write "you" its just a way of writing ... I did not write "so" because I was directing my post to the reader, not you in particular.
When I say "think of what you would want" ... I'm not saying that I hold the truth or that my opinion is somehow superior.
What I am saying is "here, this is MY opinion on that given subject ... this is the reasoning that goes on in MY head which leads me to MY opinion" ... nothing more. The reader remains free to find it relevant, irrelevant or downright stupid.
> > I posted my opinion but you control your reaction to it.
>
> I read the plain language of your post. I am a reasonably experienced and articulate reader. Beyond responding to what was written, I have had no "reaction".
>
> > Hello? Where in my post did I make assuptions on your dealing with your pets.
>
> > > > "Think of what ***you*** would want, then ***have the decency*** of giving that same humane end to those creatures that you kill."
>
> Can you understand how a person would read that to mean if they do not euthenize their pet in some manner in which they would want to die, they are lacking in decency? If it doesn't mean that, can you explain why are you equating that with having decency?
>
>
My view of what is decent is just that ... MY view, the view of Camille Dumont. Nothing more nothing less. The reader remains free to subscribe to my view or not.
> > Again, slaughterhouse practices and the meat industry in general do not employ methods that I find good or commendable.
>
> Hmmm. I don't understand that am allowed to say here what I find good or commendable for other people to do.
>I don't follow all your posts on here, perhaps you've had weird or contradictory reactions from the administration. But really I don't see how stating an opinion on an industry is against the rules.
Had I stated something like : the meat industry is evil therefore if you work in the meat industry you are evil / bad / whatever. This I could see how it could be interpreted as an attack ... and could, to employ the words of Dr. Bob here, "make people feel demeaned".
>
> > Her death was made a spectacle of ... which I found very sad.
>
> I don't understand that I am allowed to say who might make a spectacle of anything. A news produceer might feel it their duty to provide the public information about controversial issues, and families might feel it their obligation to teneciously represent thier perception of a family members interests in court and in public venues.
>A news producer may feel whatever he or she likes ... that does not mean that I cannot feel saddened by what was done and shown. Again, I'm not saying that the news people are bad people, I'm saying that the situation, the way in which she died, to me, was a sad spectacle.
>
> > Over the centuries we have manage to come up with very sick and twisted ways to destroy each other.
>
> hmmm. I don't understand that I am allowed to say what is sick and twisted for other people to do. My lack of understanding of my permission to say such things is informed by the thread below this, where were asked not to call people monterous for recruiting suicide bombers.
>
I have not read that thread on suicide bombers. Maybe the whole issue was handled in a peculiar matter.Again, maybe its an issue distinction between stating an opinion and attacking someone who has a different opinion. It might also have to do with the level of language ... or perhaps more appropriately the strength of words employed and to which degree the comments were directed at someone in particular.
> >
> > ... for a great majority of pet owners, they take their pets to be pts at the vet so that it can die quickly and without suffering yet those same people are ready to run after a wild animal and wound it and potentially make it suffer for quite a long period.
>
> I have not seen evidence that the great majority of pet owners in the united states or anywhere else A. take their pets to the vet to die or B. also run after animals wounded during a hunt.
>Maybe because I live in Canada. The vast majority of people here do not own guns (laws on ownership and I think even supply are stricter) and chemicals which might be used for home euthanasia are available only through a vet.
Perhaps this is biased by my own pet-ownership experience. Perhaps things are different for people who, for example live on farms or have access to firearms or care for a large number of animals.
But through the years, all the dogs and cats we've owned, when they became too ill to be treated or their quality of live was too imparied without the chance of improvement, they were taken to the vey where we stayed with them while they were given an overdose of a sedative agent and they died without pain.
>
> > How messed up is that?
>
> I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.
>
Again, this is My opinion. I find that it is messed up that sometime a person is allowed to suffer more than a pet is allowed to suffer.This is based on my experience, my life, what I have seen, the relatives I've had to watch in agony, begging to be allowed to die and even tied up to their beds so they wouldn't rip the tubes that were in them.
I find IT, the situation, the occurence of such suffering messed up. I am in no way saying that people who do not thing the same waht that I do are messed up themselves.
I don't claim to hold the truth, to be morally superior to others in any way ... what I do have and express are personnal opinions. To me, different opinions even contradictory ones can coexist. I would rather that there be people who think the opposite of me, if only to challenge how I think and make me consider my position. It is in the exchange of different views that, to me, critical thinking emerges and flourishes.
A world in which nobody expressed any dissent or where everybody thought the same would be a bit bland no?
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 11:58:32
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
> If one cannot state what one feels about certain things, then what good is a board. Is a discussion not the exchange of views, opinions, arguments?
These are interesting questions. If you find a reliable answer I would be interested to read it. I would think if a person inquired of the admin, on some days, some people would get an answer somewhat to the effect that "That's what a discussion can be but not here."
> To me there is a difference between stating an opinion and attacking someone because they have a different opinion than you. For example :
>
> "I find it discriminatory that gay people can't marry". To me thats an opinion.I would tend to concur, but based on my reading here, and my direct interactions, there is some fine difference between a finding and a statement of a feeling. It doesn't leave room for personal findings, sometimes. I've been told that stating what something is "To me" is not the formal "I-statement" preferred of writers here, and even then, some "I-statements" though I don't know for sure which ones, are not tolerated. Well, the statements are tolerated becasue the administration continues to publish them on the server he rents, but the people who write them are sometimes not afforded as much tolerence as others.
> From what I understand we are free to post our opinions and to challenge that of others here but not allowed to attack others because of their opinion.
A governing concept, not reliably applied as I've been able to measure, is that to "put down" an idea can tend to put down people who hold that idea.
> When I write "you" its just a way of writing ... I did not write "so" because I was directing my post to the reader, not you in particular.That would seema reason to use second person voice, but I am a reader, too. And I or other readers might kill their pets in ways they don't want to die -- I don't want to die held down to a table with a needle in my arm -- but whatever the comparison, measures of traits such as other's decency have sometimes been cited as inappropriate for this board.
> My view of what is decent is just that ... MY view, the view of Camille Dumont. Nothing more nothing less. The reader remains free to subscribe to my view or not.People's implicit views of what might not be decent have not always been tolerated here.
> I don't follow all your posts on here, perhaps you've had weird or contradictory reactions from the administration.Quite possibly.
> I have not read that thread on suicide bombers. Maybe the whole issue was handled in a peculiar matter.
Yes, maybe it was.
> Again, maybe its an issue distinction between stating an opinion and attacking someone who has a different opinion.Someday someone might count all these interventions, but until then I can only say "many" are targeted at people who call a contrary opinion wrong, or actions based on a contrary opinion less than honorable.
>It might also have to do with the level of language ... or perhaps more appropriately the strength of words employed and to which degree the comments were directed at someone in particular.Or whether the admin thinks the person needs what he has said could be seen as a therapeutic intervention. Not addressing someone in particular is often an inadequate device to avoid administrative intervention, though.
> Perhaps this is biased by my own pet-ownership experience.Exactly
> > > How messed up is that?
> >
> > I do not understand that I am allowed to say here how messed up I think other people's choices might be.Through the years, the archives show, people have been held accountble not for what they intended, but for strict interpretations of what they wrote. Though prestigious individuals have been cited as offending against the rules, I believe community presitige and allegiance to the administration has also been a factor, nonetheless, the idiom "how messed up is that" conveys a the idea that it refers to something generally messed up.
> I find IT, the situation, the occurence of such suffering messed up. I am in no way saying that people who do not thing the same waht that I do are messed up themselves.And again, if that were the way the rules were consistently enforced, I would have nothing to say about your opinion -- I might exploit it to rile to into some political action whether I totally agree or not. But my attention is held by a cognitive dissonance developed by reading what seemed to me to be inconsistent enforcement. For example, if a person rights "benzos kill brian cells. It is messed up to prescribe benzos" a typical response in my experience would be along the lines of "it can make people who think otherwise feel put down."
> A world in which nobody expressed any dissent or where everybody thought the same would be a bit bland no?And so could a message board where nobody expressed dissent. But a recurring theme here is that "This is not for everybody" and the admin has published here and in professional literature his opinion that there are other places people can go if they want a different environment.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 26, 2005, at 12:04:35
In reply to Re: Did a Texan do anything to you? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 0:20:54
Ok, I'm getting the drift.
You started out with internet hunting - which on the surface seems uncontroversial. How could anyone support that, right?
And then took it a step further to ask - is there any moral or ethical difference between internet hunting and physical hunting.
I believe that there is. The way I view it, hunting over the net is more detached, where physical hunting requires a person to be there, pull the trigger (or whatever), gather the kill, clean it and properly store it. Most people would, by doing that, greater appreciate what it is that they are doing.
I don't believe that hunting is - by definition - immoral. But I do believe that some people do it immorally. I'm just not totally sure where I personally would draw that line - and I'm not even sure a line can be drawn.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 26, 2005, at 13:02:58
In reply to Re: Internet Hunting ... I just have to jump in, posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 11:58:32
A few comments - using my observations. Not to be taken as a definitive answer:
-------------------------------------------
> If one cannot state what one feels about certain things, then what good is a board. Is a discussion not the exchange of views, opinions, arguments?These are interesting questions. If you find a reliable answer I would be interested to read it. I would think if a person inquired of the admin, on some days, some people would get an answer somewhat to the effect that "That's what a discussion can be but not here."
ME: Exchanges of differing views is allowed anywhere around here. However, some of the boards lend themselves to this more than others. This one, for example, is more likely to house debates than others - and in fact was put here to keep these type debates here where those who are troubled by debating won't be as exposed.
--------------------------------------------------
I would tend to concur, but based on my reading here, and my direct interactions, there is some fine difference between a finding and a statement of a feeling. It doesn't leave room for personal findings, sometimes. I've been told that stating what something is "To me" is not the formal "I-statement" preferred of writers here, and even then, some "I-statements" though I don't know for sure which ones, are not tolerated. Well, the statements are tolerated becasue the administration continues to publish them on the server he rents, but the people who write them are sometimes not afforded as much tolerence as others.
> From what I understand we are free to post our opinions and to challenge that of others here but not allowed to attack others because of their opinion.
A governing concept, not reliably applied as I've been able to measure, is that to "put down" an idea can tend to put down people who hold that idea.
ME: It's subtle, to be sure. But from what I've seen "I think hunting is disgusting" would be considered to possible extend to 'hunters are disgusting' and "I'm troubled by hunting" wouldn't.
And "I had bad experiences with therapy" is fine, while "I think therapy is a waste of money" isn't - as it implies that anyone in therapy is wasting money.
Another thing that seems to be factored in is the tone of the thread. If it seems to be getting heated the rules might be applied more strictly in order to keep things from escalating out of control.
--------------------------------------------------
> Again, maybe its an issue distinction between stating an opinion and attacking someone who has a different opinion.
Someday someone might count all these interventions, but until then I can only say "many" are targeted at people who call a contrary opinion wrong, or actions based on a contrary opinion less than honorable.
ME: Exactly. Calling a contrary opinion wrong can be seen as a value judgement against the person holding the opinion.There is a *big* difference in saying you disagree with the opinion (we all are entitled to our opinions) and saying it is wrong.
along the same lines you said:
..............
For example, if a person rights "benzos kill brian cells. It is messed up to prescribe benzos" a typical response in my experience would be along the lines of "it can make people who think otherwise feel put down."
ME: this is true - it can. Perhaps benzos are the only thing that work for this person. Different things work for different people and there really isn't a right or wrong in that tyoe situation. So people might take saying their behavior is messed up to be the same as saying they themselves are messed up.
Gotta run - late for the doc.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 19:22:43
In reply to Re: Back to the point » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 26, 2005, at 12:04:35
> Ok, I'm getting the drift.
> You started out with internet hunting - which on the surface seems uncontroversial. How could anyone support that, right?
> And then took it a step further to ask - is there any moral or ethical difference between internet hunting and physical hunting.Yes :-)
That was the general idea...But then I kept on going...
What is the difference between specism and racism?And then in response to the idea that our teeth have been selected for their ability to let us eat meat... I thought that guys had been selected for being bigger / stronger than females so as to better overpower them (help along the reproduction side of things). But if whatever has been selected for is 'natural' and if it is morally acceptable to do whatever has been naturally selected for then how could we say that guys overpowering women is wrong? (I took it to be fairly uncontroversial that it is wrong).
> The way I view it, hunting over the net is more detached, where physical hunting requires a person to be there, pull the trigger (or whatever), gather the kill, clean it and properly store it. Most people would, by doing that, greater appreciate what it is that they are doing.
Ok. But is 'greater appreciation' enough to make it morally acceptable??? I mean, lets say we were looking at hunting black people over the internet as opposed to IRL. Lets say that it is fairly uncontroversial that internet hunting isn't so good. But does it become morally acceptable if people do it in RL and have 'greater appreciation' for it?
The point of that case is that it is supposed to be fairly uncontroversial that there isn't a difference between whether they are hunted IRL or over the internet. There isn't a difference whether there is 'appreciation' or not.
It isn't anything about the attitude of the person who is hunting them - it is the fact that their right to life has been violated.
People are sentient. They have interests.
Animals are sentient. They have interests.
It is thought to be wrong to treat people as mere means to our ends.
We are supposed to allow them to pursue their own goals.
Not do what we want with them with no consideration for their own interests - just because we can.
I don't understand how it can be different in the case of animals.> I don't believe that hunting is - by definition - immoral. But I do believe that some people do it immorally. I'm just not totally sure where I personally would draw that line - and I'm not even sure a line can be drawn.
Ok.
I guess I think that animals have interests and goals and the capacity to suffer and to feel pain.Their interests should (IMO) be taken as seriously as we take the interests of people.
What we stand to gain by hunting them
Does not compare to what they stand to lose.
Thanks for bringing the discussion back round.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 20:51:04
In reply to Re: Back to the point » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 19:22:43
...All the way back in my second year at uni.
I spent the next few years trying to find a defensible difference between the cases.I haven't been able to find a defensible reason why it is ok to eat meat or hunt.
But I didn't even try to become vegetarian till round October last year.
I haven't lasted with that very well.
Still on the look out for a defensible difference...
But I don't think
our teeth
or appreciation
Can do it...;-)
Posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 21:59:35
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments... » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 20:51:04
Trying in all honesty to avoid either the topic or the propriety of the method of discussion in the context of this board, I can offer that...
Semantically, any philosophical argument that includes "we are supposed" raises questions about whose suppositions are being cited. The syntax introduces a passive/active language problem. It just doesn't say who is acting. Without a declaration of suppositions, the argument can't be processed as an algorithm -- individual comparisons within the argument might be instructive, especially in human terms and certainly for matters of faith, but as a reasonable process, i.e. one where all reasons are declared and theoretically can be reduced to a decision tree, there are undefined steps in the overall process.
Posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 23:44:59
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments... » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 20:51:04
Perhaps meat eating is a remanent of our origins.
Perhaps because for omnivores, meat represents a quick source of high-calorie food. Perhaps not necessary for our survival (especially given all the modern suplements and alternative protein sources) but thousands of years of evolution where access and consumption of meat increased your chances of survival means that we are biologically geared up to "like" it.
In a way my rats are like that. They are omnivorous. Their diet is mostly meat-free but if a stray bug crawls into the cage of if they encounter one during playtime, right away instincts take over and they do all they can to catch and eat it and will squabble with each other to steal it. They have unlimited food all the time in addition to a selection of fruit, veggies and some dairy daily ... yet when a source of animal protein is available, they sistematically favour that source. They will even take a piece of meat or fish over a piece of pecan or a peanut.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:21:18
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by Camille Dumont on May 26, 2005, at 23:44:59
With respect to *why* we do tend to like it.
But doesn't bear on whether we *should* eat it.:-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:29:21
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 21:59:35
Trying in all honesty to make a 'general post' in response to points about *my* post...
> Semantically, any philosophical argument that includes "we are supposed" raises questions about whose suppositions are being cited.
I am assuming that this is the bit that is worrying:
It is thought to be wrong to treat people as mere means to our ends.
We are supposed to allow them to pursue their own goals.So. What is the problem with that?????
>The syntax introduces a passive/active language problem. It just doesn't say who is acting.
People. People are acting / persuing their goals.
>Without a declaration of suppositions,
???
>the argument can't be processed as an algorithm -
???
>- individual comparisons within the argument might be instructive, especially in human terms and certainly for matters of faith, but as a reasonable process, i.e. one where all reasons are declared and theoretically can be reduced to a decision tree, there are undefined steps in the overall process.
?????
You think I have implicit premises?
Do you want me to set up the arguments in standard form???
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:32:09
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 0:29:21
So.
If you don't want me to post to you
Then please do me the courtesy of not posting to me.
Yeah, you didn't 'add name of previous poster' but they fairly clearly were remarks about my post.I really don't think it is fair that you respond to my posts like that when I am not supposed to post to you.
Please don't post to me.
Please leave me alone.
Posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 1:30:17
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by so on May 26, 2005, at 21:59:35
> Trying in all honesty to avoid either the topic
What topic is that, I asked myself, rereading my own words. Oh, yeh -- the topic of the thread. I'm trying to respond to the structure of the argument -- not the propriety, just the structure.Anyway, I probably negated any formal opertunity to ask somebody not to post to me in toto when I informally suggested we just try to disengage in this thread and one other. And I said if I get caught up in it again, it's my problem. Now it seems mi problema es nuestro problema.
Para cualquier razón, no realicé que nadie posee el asunto, solamente alguien pudo demandar la estructura
Posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 1:32:23
In reply to Re: I first encountered these arguments..., posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 1:30:17
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 2:46:07
In reply to y pudo demandar el título... (nm), posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 1:32:23
I'm having a bit of a hard day.
Took today off work with the flu.
I don't understand whatever language that is.
Is it spanish?
I have no idea.
I just reread the posts....
I guess I don't know whether I am allowed to post to you or not.
I don't know.
I'm lost.
I thought I wasn't supposed to
Thats why I was a bit suprised that you commented on my post.Ah. I see what you mean,
You were looking at the structure...
:-)
Sorry I missed your point there.Can you clarify where we are at with respect to posting to each other?
If its ok, then I'm ok with that.
But if you don't want me to post to you
Then please do me the courtesy of not posting to me.
Thanks.No hard feelings.
Posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 8:37:55
In reply to Re: I'm sorry.. » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 2:46:07
> I guess I don't know whether I am allowed to post to you or not.
That part was easy for me to understand. After I read your reaction to my posts and saw that you were trying to comply with requirements I don't find consistent, I was concerned about the difficulty you would have trying to sort it all out.
Oddly, I was writing something in response to another of your posts on admin when I first said heck with it and deleted my draft to be replaced by my original "don't post to me" request, then yesterday was writing exactly the same thought (I'll help stop the bleeding just to keep my carpet clean) when your post showed up beneath it.
I appreciate your effort to sort it out -- if "sorry's" are the "way of your people" i accept that, though I would seldom require or expect it. From me, you would more likely hear "I turned down the wrong friggin street three times now, is the map wrong or am I". Either that or, "hey, this is kindof a nice street, anyway" (as thuggish looking youth close in around the car).
> No hard feelings.
>
>Not to blunt the sincere idiom, but the only feelings I ever have are hard feelings. It's easier not to feel at all, but it's all the same in the end.
"hey mister, nice car", the rough-looking kids said with jubilant innocence as I asked for directions. "Get away from that man! Remember what happened to Johnny" their mother shouts from the door of a tenement building.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 27, 2005, at 10:31:00
In reply to Re: Back to the point » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 19:22:43
It seems to me to be a logical that humans evolved as carnivores and to use the shape of the teeth as a way to back that logic up.
I don't see a similar corrallary between the size of men and the premise that it is so they can overpower women.
There are many other possibilities for this bit of evolution. Example (and the one I like):
Women *chose* larger, stronger men because they were better hunter/gatherers and because they were better able to defend the family from predators. After many generations of this choosing the smaller, weaker men became less common.
Nature backs this up - with examples of male animals fighting to the death for the privilege of mating with a desired female. And even to a point with other male animals becoming more and more flashy looking to attract the female of the species.
Some of this natural selection is still occuring in humans. How many women prefer taller men?
I'll get back to the rest of it later - I've got tendonitis in my wrist and it's hard to type.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 27, 2005, at 11:36:28
In reply to Re: possible faulty assumption??? » alexandra_k, posted by AuntieMel on May 27, 2005, at 10:31:00
> It seems to me to be a logical that humans evolved as carnivores and to use the shape of the teeth as a way to back that logic up.
>
> I don't see a similar corrallary between the size of men and the premise that it is so they can overpower women.
>That wasn't my understanding of the discussion.
I thought it was: If it's morally okay for one to eat meat, because our tooth structure indicates it is natural, then using that argument it is morally okay for men to rape women, because they are usually stronger.
Posted by AuntieMel on May 27, 2005, at 16:55:22
In reply to Re: possible faulty assumption??? » AuntieMel, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 27, 2005, at 11:36:28
Well, I was saying that eating meat is natural for humans and the shape of our teeth is evidence of that.
The reply was that if that was "natural" then so was overpowering women "so as to better overpower them (help along the reproduction side of things)."
And the argument extended that being natural doesn't mean it's moral.
My statement back was that it is possible that wasn't the driving evolutionary force behind the increased size in men.
Of course, I could have easily missed the point.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 17:13:25
In reply to Re: I'm sorry.., posted by so on May 27, 2005, at 8:37:55
> After I read your reaction to my posts and saw that you were trying to comply with requirements I don't find consistent, I was concerned about the difficulty you would have trying to sort it all out.
:-)
Usually it is clear enough.
I think I got a little confused because stuff was said - then taken back
And I was unclear on the scope of the request first off
(Typically it is global).
> I appreciate your effort to sort it out --Thats ok.
I have been warned about posting to someone who has requested I not post to them before.
If I do that again I expect I will get blocked.
I think that is clear enough...
So.
I don't want to get blocked over it.>if "sorry's" are the "way of your people" i accept that, though I would seldom require or expect it. From me, you would more likely hear "I turned down the wrong friggin street three times now, is the map wrong or am I". Either that or, "hey, this is kindof a nice street, anyway" (as thuggish looking youth close in around the car).
:-)
Yeah.
Sorrys are 'the way of my people'
Though I should be careful with them - otherwise I just go around apologising for my existence much of the time.> Not to blunt the sincere idiom, but the only feelings I ever have are hard feelings. It's easier not to feel at all, but it's all the same in the end.
:-)
(((So)))
I hope you start to feel cared about here.
> "hey mister, nice car", the rough-looking kids said with jubilant innocence as I asked for directions. "Get away from that man! Remember what happened to Johnny" their mother shouts from the door of a tenement building.Yeah.
Life can suck real bad.
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 17:23:48
In reply to Re: possible faulty assumption??? » Gabbi-x-2, posted by AuntieMel on May 27, 2005, at 16:55:22
Auntiemel - yep, Gabbi's point was what I was trying to get at...
:-)
The example is slightly tenuous......
Thats why I prefered to get back to the specism / racism analogy.What things are 'selected for' is indeed a tricky notion. There is a lot of work being done in Philosophy of Biology with respect to how to work out the 'proper function' of any characteristic that has been selected for.
Ruth Millikan wrote an incredibly influential (also incredibly dense) article on it and from there things have just taken off....
It does seem that the proper function of caniverous teeth is to enable us to eat meat.
The proper function of guys tending to be bigger is a lot more dubious (as you say)...
There could be lots of related things going on.But all I need... (and then I'd just get rid of the 'rape' analogy...) Is an example of a characteristic that was (fairly uncontroversially) selected for a certain function...
Yet we do not consider it morally acceptable to act in that way.I mean...
People are made of meat. It might be 'natural' to eat them (them being made of meat and all) but it is typically considered morally unacceptable to do so...Hmm.
So you might want to say 'it is always morally acceptable to act on the proper function of an evolved characteristic'.
And that just might be able to work....
But...
I'm not so sure...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 17:25:32
In reply to Re: possible faulty assumption??? » AuntieMel, posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 17:23:48
Auntiemel
Oh
By the way.
Your confusion was understandable.
I was getting a little confused.
What I said was a little confusing...
You had a good point.
I was squirming a bit there...It really can be hard to express stuff clearly sometimes.
:-)
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