![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by AuntieMel on March 2, 2005, at 15:26:19
In reply to Designer Labels, posted by rayww on March 2, 2005, at 12:30:55
"The problem I have with labels is that I can grow up under the umbrella of truth and wisdom in the home of a loving family. I can then go on into the next generation, and mirror what I learned in my home and so on to the 12th generation. We can live lives of community service, minding our own business, doing all that we can to help others, and someone will still label us idiotic bigots, homophobics, GDMormons, or whatever. Are you asking me to stop minding my own business and venture into yours?"
That depends, doesn't it?
I think the desire Ed has is for *all* people to have the opportunity to grow up with a loving family, live quiet happy lives trying to help others.
Pardon me if I'm speaking out of turn Ed.
As for the political problem, wouldn't the first issue be to define what "marriage" means. Right now it is used interchangeably as a religious ceremony and as a civil contract, recognized by the government.
And I doubt if anyone truly wants religious entities to be forced to perform gay weddings.
But to be treated equally under the civil law is quite another matter.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 2, 2005, at 15:33:52
In reply to Re: Hi, posted by ed_uk on March 2, 2005, at 12:09:04
I figured that was the case. I just was trying to keep the conversation philosophical, not personal.
Care to join in?
Did you enjoy the link?
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 3, 2005, at 14:38:35
In reply to Re: Designer Labels » rayww, posted by AuntieMel on March 2, 2005, at 15:26:19
If I marry again, the next time will surely be to a woman. The wedding will probably be held in a court house, as was my first. And, I'm going to make sure those commandments are no where to be seen!
emmy -- voicing 2 political opinions with one stone
Posted by ed_uk on March 4, 2005, at 7:11:00
In reply to Designer Labels, posted by rayww on March 2, 2005, at 12:30:55
Hello,
I'm sorry for what I said.
>The political issue over gay marriage is one deserving of clear and careful examination. What are your opinions and ideas for resolution?
I don't think I can join in with this discussion because I know I will get upset. It is a very personal issue for me.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by rayww on March 4, 2005, at 8:07:20
In reply to Re: Designer Labels » rayww, posted by ed_uk on March 4, 2005, at 7:11:00
I'm sorry. thank-you for your apology and for being so honest.
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 5, 2005, at 13:21:31
In reply to Re: Designer Labels » ed_uk, posted by rayww on March 4, 2005, at 8:07:20
In my opinion..
I had an entirely civil (ie, non-religious) wedding.. By law in England, if you have a non-church wedding, no mention of anything even slightly religious is allowed.. You can't have religious music (eg, walking down the aisle to Ava Maria), no prayers, no mention of God etc etc.
I am married, legally, to my husband, and that gives me certain legal rights. If he were to die intestate, I would be his next of kin to inherit. If he were in a serious accident, I am next of kin to make medical decisions..
Why shouldn't a gay person have these same rights?
And rayww's comment "A marriage is a contract that carries within it the power to create".. No, sexual intercourse is what carries the power to create.. Marriage isn't needed, or required, to have children. I haven't married to have children.. I married as I love my husband and we wanted to recognise that legally and in front of friends and family.
I fail to understand WHY a gay person should not have the same rights in a relationship as my husband and I do.
I'm lucky that I'm in the UK, and gay marriage is shortly to be made legal.
I hear alot about the seperation of Church and State from the US, so surely this should be viewed in a purely political way?
And rayww - as for living life according the bible.. I don't really fancy animal sacrifice after giving birth, or having to hide myself away while menstruating thanks.
Nikki
Posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 19:24:11
In reply to marriage isn't religious.., posted by NikkiT2 on March 5, 2005, at 13:21:31
Thank-you NikkiT2 for entering this discussion. I would like to reply to several of your ideas/opinions, in the five minutes I have here. I hundred percent support civil union and believe in freedom of choice and its positive or negative consequenses within and without the framework of law.
When you speak of separating religion and politics what do you mean? Do you mean that any civil law that is the same as a commandment should be excluded? What came first religion or politics? By the fact that the ten commandments have been altered in their many translations is evidence that politics has interfered with religion over the ages. I don't see how law can be separated between religion and politics concerning right and wrong because both are based on belief. If you can explain this to me I may be able to understand.
To some people marriage isn't religious, but to many cultures it is. Marriage is central to my religion, not just the till death do we separate eternally type, but the real McCoy, eternal marriage. There is no marrying in heaven, it has to be performed on earth by the proper authority. Then if you add the commandments, one of which is not to commit adultry - - meaning sex outside the bond of legal marriage - - and if you change the law to include gay marriage, then adultry has changed. It is now permissable to have sex between members of the same sex, or man and woman, and as long as you are in either bond then you are in good standing with God. In my opinion you cannot separate religion from politics on this issue. It must be named something other than marriage. Rights and privileges can be offered, but they must be different, not entirely the same. It must be a different type of contract. Either way, as I opinionize this, there must be a compromise from both sides to make it work.
And, of your last comment, the points you referred to were of the law of Moses, which was fulfilled in Christ. All of those rituals were actually to symbolize the coming of Christ, and a reminder of His sacrifice, which they didn't understand at that time, in our behalf. There is so much more to all of this that most just cannot comprehend or understand. I am trying to understand both sides. Please enlighten me more.
> In my opinion..
>
> I had an entirely civil (ie, non-religious) wedding.. By law in England, if you have a non-church wedding, no mention of anything even slightly religious is allowed.. You can't have religious music (eg, walking down the aisle to Ava Maria), no prayers, no mention of God etc etc.
>
> I am married, legally, to my husband, and that gives me certain legal rights. If he were to die intestate, I would be his next of kin to inherit. If he were in a serious accident, I am next of kin to make medical decisions..
>
> Why shouldn't a gay person have these same rights?
>
> And rayww's comment "A marriage is a contract that carries within it the power to create".. No, sexual intercourse is what carries the power to create.. Marriage isn't needed, or required, to have children. I haven't married to have children.. I married as I love my husband and we wanted to recognise that legally and in front of friends and family.
>
> I fail to understand WHY a gay person should not have the same rights in a relationship as my husband and I do.
>
> I'm lucky that I'm in the UK, and gay marriage is shortly to be made legal.
>
> I hear alot about the seperation of Church and State from the US, so surely this should be viewed in a purely political way?
>
> And rayww - as for living life according the bible.. I don't really fancy animal sacrifice after giving birth, or having to hide myself away while menstruating thanks.
>
> Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 6, 2005, at 3:33:30
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 19:24:11
Which came first, politics or religion..
Well, um, It would have to be politics. Civilised man was around alot earlier than religion.. Laws were around in England LONG before Christianity reached these shores..
By religion, do you mean Christianity? Because Buddhism was around thousands of years before Christianity.
You said "Marriage is central to my religion,".. I think the word that needs to stand out in that sentence is *my*. Its only central to YOUR religion, not everyones..
And ofcourse I don't think that all laws that match with, say a commandment, should be removed. I just believe that the bible was an early form of political statement.. A way to live 2000 or what ever years ago. But its now the 21st Century, and we have perfectly good systems of government in the UK, the US, Australia and other western countries, so, in my opinion, laws should be made, regardless of religion.
Civil marriage is a perfectly acceptable way for hetorosexual people to marry. Its a legal contract with NO religious involvement (Though I believe in the US, you can have a civil marriage that involves some religius aspect).. Why should that legal contract, in a legal context, be removed from a large section of the population, simply because they are homosexual.
Why should a homosexual man not be able to make medical decisions, as next of kin, for his partner of, say, 20 years? Why should he not be able to take on his partners pension after his death as a hetorosexual person would be able to?
I'm speaking about it in a purely legal sense. I know that a religious marriage is about pro-creation, and I can completely understand why the Church and its members would be against religious homosexual marriage.
You say "Rights and privileges can be offered, but they must be different, not entirely the same.". Why must rights and privileges be different? What rights must be different?
And why not call it marriage? My husband and I call ourselves married, and we called what we went through a marriage. No God involved, no religion. Just our love, and sharing that with friends and family, and making our future more secure within the legal frame work that constitues marriage.
I, I admit, completely fail to understand what it is about homosexuality that it should be sectioned off from such a large part of what makes our society. But then, I was bought up believing EVERYONE is equal, and that everyone should be afforded equal rights, and that someones sexuality isn't something to fear. But I guess, even though I was bought up in a small town, my mum had a number of gay friends, that had been her friends since high school in the 1950's, so it was nothing out of the ordinary for me at all (and meant I was also the best dressed 5 year old in town *L*).
At the end of the day, love is love. And in this day and age, (the era of aids) I believe monogomany between any two people should be encouraged.
Nikki x
Posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.. » rayww, posted by NikkiT2 on March 6, 2005, at 3:33:30
> Which came first, politics or religion..
>
> Well, um, It would have to be politics. Civilised man was around alot earlier than religion.. Laws were around in England LONG before Christianity reached these shores..
>
> By religion, do you mean Christianity? Because Buddhism was around thousands of years before Christianity.<<<Actually, Christianity was here in the beginning. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? They lived in a beautiful garden and walked and talked with God the Father and Jehova. Eve disobeyed and chose to eat something that caused a physical change in her body, making her mortal like we are. Because of this they were separated from the presence of God, as we are, but they were able to now have children. Even though they could remember God's perfect teaching and were very intelligent, they were required to live out their days by faith. They never walked or talked with the Gods again. This is called the "fall". Jesus knew this was going to happen because it was part of God's plan, so before we were born he offered to be our Redeemer. To start with, after the fall, he communicated with prophets like Enoch, Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc, and had them write about it. In an experience he gave Moses the ten commandments, but first of all he gave him a greater law. Moses was gone a little too long (40 days) and by the time he came down from the mountain his people were partying and had created a golden calf to pray to instead of God, so god got mad and took away the higher law, replacing it with a lesser one, namely the law of Moses, which was basically an eye for an eye, etc. and the ten commandments found in http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm.
We pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ because it is through him we are saved, as he is willing to plead our case and make up the difference if we're not quite prepared to enter the presence of God when we die. No one is capable of perfection.
Adam and Eve had pure religion, call it Christianity if you want, I think it was called the Church of the Firstborn, but I'm not certain. They had many sons and daughters, and at least one of their sons left the church and became a murderer. Can you imagine how many millions would have been affected by this one decision, through no fault of their own? Many others left the true religion also. In fact the people became so wicked in the time of Noah, that God caused a flood and basically started over. From there things just kept getting worse. In a few short years some built a tower called the tower of babel, thinking they could climb to heaven, or avoid the next flood. Poor thinking. God confounded all the languages, and then everyone went on their merry way, by then, divided into the 12 tribes of Israel. Judah settled in Israel. Japeth went to Japan, they flocked all through Europe, and even America. Jared and his family in 1200 BC brought the pure religion, and animals and seeds, to America. Their life history is found in http://scriptures.lds.org/ether/1/1#1.
So, you see, pure religion was here before politics and also before all the variations of religion.
>
> You said "Marriage is central to my religion,".. I think the word that needs to stand out in that sentence is *my*. Its only central to YOUR religion, not everyones..<<<<May I be so bold as to say marriage is central to pure religion? Pure religion is caring for the poor and the needy. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22pure+religion%22&search.x=28&search.y=4
Pure religion is loving your neighbor as yourself. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22Matt+22%3A36-39%22&search.x=31&search.y=10One by one, one person at a time, as they are touched by pure religion, gain a proper understanding of what it all means. If as you say, mine is the only religion that centers on marriage, a lot of you are coming over, one by one. It is god's way. Jesus taught and healed one at a time, always caring deeply for the individual. The same is happening today. If you don't know what i mean, let me remind you that at any given time there are at least 60,000 missionaries teaching about marriage. My son for one, has convinced couples who are living together to get married. I think that's big.
>
> And ofcourse I don't think that all laws that match with, say a commandment, should be removed. I just believe that the bible was an early form of political statement.. A way to live 2000 or what ever years ago. But its now the 21st Century, and we have perfectly good systems of government in the UK, the US, Australia and other western countries, so, in my opinion, laws should be made, regardless of religion.
<<<<Hey, I agree. We do have good systems of government. And, as you say, the Bible was an early form of political statement, complete with an organized business plan for happiness and eternal life. You can find mission statements, vision statements, procedures, measures, and outcomes, or strategic planning and tasks however you choose to view it. If you want links I'll be more than happy to find them for you.<<<<<<First of all, before I comment on the following, thank-you for trying to help me understand some of the issues.
>
> Civil marriage is a perfectly acceptable way for hetorosexual people to marry. Its a legal contract with NO religious involvement (Though I believe in the US, you can have a civil marriage that involves some religius aspect).. Why should that legal contract, in a legal context, be removed from a large section of the population, simply because they are homosexual.
<<<<It has never been removed if it was not given in the first place.>
> Why should a homosexual man not be able to make medical decisions, as next of kin, for his partner of, say, 20 years? Why should he not be able to take on his partners pension after his death as a hetorosexual person would be able to?
<<<<<Perhaps he should have that right. What about the person on his 5th companionship, that is only into its first year? I'm sorry I don't know, but do couples (2 people in one household) often stay together for life?
>
> I'm speaking about it in a purely legal sense. I know that a religious marriage is about pro-creation, and I can completely understand why the Church and its members would be against religious homosexual marriage.
<<<<<thank-you. Religious homosexual marriage is a religious mockery of the term "marriage". It lessens its value. It absolves the couple from the responsibility of children and treats it as something sexually centered. When you mock God's laws, you mock God. If you want to be turned over to the buffetings of Satan for your whole life, mock God and see if you can get away with it. I personally don't think you (I) can.
>
> You say "Rights and privileges can be offered, but they must be different, not entirely the same.". Why must rights and privileges be different? What rights must be different?
<<<<<If we knew those answers we could solve the problem. A gay couple has the right to be gay and live together. They have the right to be my next door neighbor, but they do not have the right to abuse my kids. I'm trying to remember back to when we had a gay couple living in our neighborhood. It was a long time ago, but as I recal we tried to include them in things, and help them get involved in the school system, but they revolted and tried to destroy it, and got funding for another school's bus to come into our town and pick up their kids. It was kind of ugly, but the community honestly tried to be fair and treat them as equals. They were two women and each had daughters the same age as my daughters. They played together at school, but i have to admit I was uncomfortable sending my girls over to their place at night for sleepovers. I don't think I ever let them do that. Do you blame me?
>
> And why not call it marriage? My husband and I call ourselves married, and we called what we went through a marriage. No God involved, no religion. Just our love, and sharing that with friends and family, and making our future more secure within the legal frame work that constitues marriage.<<<<<<I am genuinely proud of you!
>
> I, I admit, completely fail to understand what it is about homosexuality that it should be sectioned off from such a large part of what makes our society. But then, I was bought up believing EVERYONE is equal, and that everyone should be afforded equal rights, and that someones sexuality isn't something to fear. But I guess, even though I was bought up in a small town, my mum had a number of gay friends, that had been her friends since high school in the 1950's, so it was nothing out of the ordinary for me at all (and meant I was also the best dressed 5 year old in town *L*).
<<<<<When did being equal ever mean equal rights? There is always going to be poor and homeless, as well as rich and famous. Each person has their station in life. Some are here to be helped and others are here to help. http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22D%26C+46%3A11-26%22&search.x=24&search.y=8
>
> At the end of the day, love is love. And in this day and age, (the era of aids) I believe monogomany between any two people should be encouraged.<<<<<I certainly agree. So why not call it monogimony? (like matrimony) and make the law specific to gay "couples". give them a list of rights, if it can be agreed upon, which I doubt it ever could, and then enforce them. While doing this, lets also allow common law heterosexual couples these same rights and let them enter the contract of monogimony if they don't want to get married. Common law couples should also be entitled to certain rights, but not equal rights because they have chosen monogimony rather than matrimony. We can be equal without having to be given equal rights. As in Moses day, perhaps we can come up with a lesser law, but keep our higher law too.
Regardless of law, in my religion, any married person who violates their covenant of marriage is going to be excommunicated. Excommunication is an act of love because it opens the door wide for repentance and forgiveness, which is a wonderful gift from God. There is a God who lives and loves each one regardless of race or religion, and who is bound to live his part of the business agreement when we live our part.
I hope you feel my willingness and desire to understand and discuss this sensitive topic.
Posted by nikkit2 on March 7, 2005, at 6:57:04
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
I've not got much time as I'm at work.. but there are a couple of things I would like to address..
What about a hetorosexual couple who have decided they do not want children.. The man has had a vasectomy so he can no longer make his partner pregnant.
But they want to be married..Is that making a mockery of marriage and making it "sexually centered". How about "love centred".
And, whilst undertaking bible studies in preperation to be confirmed in the Church Of England (Protestant), we were taught that the old testement is bascially a set of fables, that are designed to be a guide to living those 1500 or what ever years ago. And that it was the new testement that was the "true stories" as it were.
I actually believe that about most of the bible.. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe that Adam and Eve existed. But I do believe that a man called Jesus existed who was a great orator, and who was able to preach wonderfully to people. I don't believe that any religion is more "pure" than the others.
Do you live by the ENTIRE bible? Or do you choose which parts you wish to live by? Do you live by the laws in Leviticus for example?Your argument about wealth making people un-equal doesn't match the discussion. We are talking laws. Someone in poverty (but is hetorosexual) has as many rights to marry as the richest of people. Its not that long ago, in the US, where similar things were being said about black people is it? Would you now say it should be illegal for a black man to marry a white woman?
You said "What about the person on his 5th companionship, that is only into its first year? I'm sorry I don't know, but do couples (2 people in one household) often stay together for life?"
Can you explain how this is ANY different from a hetorosexual relationship? After all, we ALL know that many many people divorce and then remarry - many of them over and over again.And, I am incredibly shocked at your abuse comment. I think you would find that its actually a hetorosexual man who is the most likely to be an abuser.. What about all the Priests who have been caught recently?
I'm afraid that comment has made me really think it would be best to not continue this discussion.I hope you are able to resolve within yourself that being gay does not make anyone less of a person, more likely to be an abuser, or more likely to be promiscious.
One final question that I'd love to know the answer to.. if your son had come to you at 18, or 21 and said "I'm gay", would you have disowned him? Would you have refused to leave your younger children or grandchildren around him out of fear he would abuse them?
Nikki
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 7, 2005, at 9:19:17
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
"They played together at school, but i have to admit I was uncomfortable sending my girls over to their place at night for sleepovers. I don't think I ever let them do that. Do you blame me? "
Are you saying that you think lesbians are pedophiles??? Or that homosexuality is contagious?
"Religious homosexual marriage is a religious mockery of the term "marriage". It lessens its value. It absolves the couple from the responsibility of children and treats it as something sexually centered. When you mock God's laws, you mock God. If you want to be turned over to the buffetings of Satan for your whole life, mock God and see if you can get away with it."It's my belief that the center of marriage is love, not making babies. I do not beleive that loving someone, and committing my life to him or her is a mockery of anything sacred. I think God loves me, understands me, and knows the love in my heart. I don't believe that God will hand me over to satan for the cause of love.
I feel hurt by the suggestion that I live in the hand's of satan due to my innate feelings. It sounds like you are saying that satan is the source of MY love, and God is the source of yours?
"There is a God who lives and loves each one regardless of race or religion, and who is bound to live his part of the business agreement when we live our part."
I hope that you and your church, which only allowed African American's full rights in 1978, will someday come to the same conclusion they did then. All people should be loved and respected equally, and given the same rights regardless of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
emmy
Posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 10:41:42
In reply to Re: Hurtful comments » rayww, posted by TofuEmmy on March 7, 2005, at 9:19:17
I'm trying really hard to understand both sides of this issue. My statement about the buffetings refers to myself and others who after they know our truth intentionally turn away from it. I could go into more detail but it's more of an understanding issue, that if you don't understand our belief, it would be hard to make the connection. Please don't feel put down. I'm only trying to understand.
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 7, 2005, at 12:46:30
In reply to Re: Hurtful comments » TofuEmmy, posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 10:41:42
You are CLEARLY putting down homosexuals when you say, "They played together at school, but i have to admit I was uncomfortable sending my girls over to their place at night for sleepovers. I don't think I ever let them do that. Do you blame me?", and other comments.
And you did not answer my questions about the above. Am I a dangerous pedophile, or am I contagious with homocooties?
Adding a sentence saying you just want to understand, and that I should not be hurt by your comments, does NOT make those comments civil. IMO, it just means you don't want to be blocked for expressing your opinions.
emmy
Posted by snoozin on March 7, 2005, at 14:47:21
In reply to marriage isn't religious.., posted by NikkiT2 on March 5, 2005, at 13:21:31
>
> I'm lucky that I'm in the UK, and gay marriage is shortly to be made legal.<<Really? Cool. I didn't know the UK was doing that. :-)
And I totally agree. As a lawyer, I see marriage as a legal issue, not a religious one. It's totally fine for it to be religious, but the government only cares about the legal aspect of it.
Posted by snoozin on March 7, 2005, at 14:50:46
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 5, 2005, at 19:24:11
Mark 12.13-17
And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Herodians to entrap him in his talk. And they came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are true, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men, but truly teach the way of God. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, "Why put me to the test? Bring me a coin, and let me look at it," and they brought one. And he said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" They said to him, "Caesar's." Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at him.
Posted by NikkiT2 on March 7, 2005, at 15:27:33
In reply to Re: Hurtful comments » rayww, posted by TofuEmmy on March 7, 2005, at 12:46:30
You have my complete and utter support here.
But remember to be careful
*hugs you*
Nikki
Posted by AuntieMel on March 7, 2005, at 15:59:15
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
Sorry, Ray. Usually we can discuss things rationally, but I'm feeling a bit angry right now. Hopefully I won't be irrational.
Picking out a few sentances, and hopefully not ruining the intent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
<<<Actually, Christianity was here in the beginning. Remember the story of Adam and Eve? ...... Even though they could remember God's perfect teaching and were very intelligent, they were required to live out their days by faith. They never walked or talked with the Gods again. This is called the "fall". ........ Jesus knew this was going to happen because it was part of God's plan, so before we were born he offered to be our Redeemer. To start with, after the fall, he communicated with prophets like Enoch, Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc, and had them write about it.
> We pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ because it is through him we are saved, .......
>
> Adam and Eve had pure religion, call it Christianity if you want, I think it was called the Church of the Firstborn, but I'm not certain. They had many sons and daughters, and at least one of their sons left the church and became a murderer. ........
>
> So, you see, pure religion was here before politics and also before all the variations of religion.
>
>I understand that this is the way you believe. But 'thinking doesn't make it so' and it is not the way I or billions of others believe. Can we remember that in this discourse, please?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
<<<<May I be so bold as to say marriage is central to pure religion? Pure religion is caring for the poor and the needy.
> One by one, one person at a time, as they are touched by pure religion, gain a proper understanding of what it all means. If as you say, mine is the only religion that centers on marriage, a lot of you are coming over, one by one. It is god's way. ..... If you don't know what i mean, let me remind you that at any given time there are at least 60,000 missionaries teaching about marriage. My son for one, has convinced couples who are living together to get married. I think that's big.
I'm hoping you will correct me, but it sounds like you are saying that you and others of your faith are the only ones that have "pure religion." Is that so?
------------------------------------------------------------
> > And ofcourse I don't think that all laws that match with, say a commandment, should be removed.
> <<<<Hey, I agree.That's an argument that I've heard over and over in the US. That the commandments should be posted because of they are the basis of all our laws.
But when you look at them, only 2 of them are laws: don't kill and don't steal.
------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Civil marriage is a perfectly acceptable way for hetorosexual people to marry. Its a legal contract with NO religious involvement. Why should that legal contract, in a legal context, be removed from a large section of the population, simply because they are homosexual.
> <<<<It has never been removed if it was not given in the first place.
>Say what???? That makes it ok?? I had to read that one two or three times before I realized it actually said that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > I'm speaking about it in a purely legal sense. I know that a religious marriage is about pro-creation, and I can completely understand why the Church and its members would be against religious homosexual marriage.
> <<<<<thank-you. Religious homosexual marriage is a religious mockery of the term "marriage". It lessens its value. It absolves the couple from the responsibility of children and treats it as something sexually centered. When you mock God's laws, you mock God. If you want to be turned over to the buffetings of Satan for your whole life, mock God and see if you can get away with it. I personally don't think you (I) can.
>
>Again, that is your opinion. Like I said before, I don't think anyone should force your religion to perform gay marriages.
But if another religion chooses to do so, that's their business.
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Now here's where my feathers start getting ruffled. Big time.
> > You say "Rights and privileges can be offered, but they must be different, not entirely the same.". Why must rights and privileges be different? What rights must be different?
>
>
> <<<<<If we knew those answers we could solve the problem.How about you give us an example of a right or privilege *you* think should be denied. You seem to have something in mind or you wouldn't have said 'not all rights.'
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<<A gay couple has the right to be gay and live together. They have the right to be my next door neighbor, but they do not have the right to abuse my kids. I'm trying to remember back to when we had a gay couple living in our neighborhood.
And I have a black couple living next door.....
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<<<It was a long time ago, but as I recal we tried to include them in things, and help them get involved in the school system, but they revolted and tried to destroy it, and got funding for another school's bus to come into our town and pick up their kids. It was kind of ugly, but the community honestly tried to be fair and treat them as equals.
Again, I'm hoping I'm reading this wrong, and I'd need more details, but if they were the community 'token gays' I can see how it could get ugly.
How did they try to destroy the school system? By wanting to be treated the same as others? By wanting the curriculum to not gay bash? Please, more details.
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<<They were two women and each had daughters the same age as my daughters. They played together at school, but i have to admit I was uncomfortable sending my girls over to their place at night for sleepovers. I don't think I ever let them do that. Do you blame me?
I'm trying really hard not to be uncivil here, but I think a refusal to allow your girls to go over shows an ignorance of the facts (which Emmy has touched on.)
My sister is gay and I never thought twice about leaving my daughter with her.
I was very, very good friends with a lesbian couple - even went on trips and shared condos - and I wouldn't think twice about leaving my daughter with them either. {FYI - the reason we don't hang now is they've moved and we lost touch}
My best friend for years was a gay male and I wouldn't have thought twice about leaving my son with him either.
ALL of the above examples were in serious long term loving relationships. {Two still are in the same relationship, but my best friend died.}
So - to put it frankly - when people say things that I take to be disparaging about *my* family and *my* friends *I* start to feel *very* offended.
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> <<<<<When did being equal ever mean equal rights?I don't know about everywhere, but it is in the US constitution and ammendments, and the UK had the Magna Carta. Doesn't it mean that in Canada??
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<<<There is always going to be poor and homeless, as well as rich and famous. Each person has their station in life. Some are here to be helped and others are here to help.
Gee, by that logic I'd be a rich slave owner. That was my ancestors' station in life.I myself believe that the poor and homeless have the same rights I do.
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<<<<< So why not call it monogimony? (like matrimony) and make the law specific to gay "couples". give them a list of rights, if it can be agreed upon, which I doubt it ever could, and then enforce them.
Give them a list of rights???????????????
Are you serious?????????????????????????
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While doing this, lets also allow common law heterosexual couples these same rights and let them enter the contract of monogimony if they don't want to get married.Well, civil unions like you are talking about have been called marriage for ages.
They have never been called matrimony.
Rats!!! I had something good to say, but it bordered on sarcasm.....
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Common law couples should also be entitled to certain rights, but not equal rights because they have chosen monogimony rather than matrimony.
Again, which rights would you deny Nikki or anyone else that has a civil marriage?
And doesn't this go back to "It has never been removed if it was not given in the first place?" Here, you seem to me to be implying that Nikki should lose some rights. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, please.
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<<<< We can be equal without having to be given equal rights.
No we can't. Unequal rights means unequal.
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> I hope you feel my willingness and desire to understand and discuss this sensitive topic.Well, actually I'm not feeling it. Maybe if you expound.
But if it is going to be about religion only, maybe Dr. Bob can redirect it to the faith board.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 7, 2005, at 16:25:28
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
Posted by AuntieMel on March 7, 2005, at 17:01:51
In reply to Re: Hurtful comments » rayww, posted by TofuEmmy on March 7, 2005, at 12:46:30
A wise person once told me "you don't have the power to change another person. what *is* in your power is how you react to it."
So, yes, please be careful.
Posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 17:24:02
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by AuntieMel on March 7, 2005, at 15:59:15
I see we have a discussion going. My husband asked me this morning if I ever got angry when someone said something I didn't agree with. I said "no", and my mother who was sitting beside me said the same thing. Neither does she. He, on the other hand has a very short fuse, and if someone says something contrary to what he believes, feels justified in what you might describe as exploding. I call it a diabetic reaction. I told him that I regularly get told off because of my ideas but it doesn't make me angry. My feathers get ruffled and I emote. I am bipolar and I swing, maybe a little too far at times, but seriously, I don't get angry.
I think if we were side by side we would be having a heart to heart discussion, and we may both be learning from each other, which is what I try to do. I view life through a different lens than most of the world apparently, because there are religious under (over) tones to most of what I say. Well, the two hot issues right now are religious ones in my eyes.
I have read AuntieMel's response, but none of the others yet. I'm a little afraid to open them.
In freedom of speech and equal rights I have the right to say what I honestly believe and so does everyone else. Then, after all is said and done we each have the equal right to our own reaction, to either be angry or not be angry, to love or not love. We don't have the right to cause bodily harm, or destroy another's self esteem. We can choose our response and our reaction. We have the right to life, to individuality, and as a wise person once said, to be well bred, well fed, and well led. I'll probably get criticized for saying that too.
I have the right to try to help others understand my view, and they have the right to help me understand theirs. I have the right to believe in God and to honor his laws even though you have the right to think they are vain imaginations.
You think I have something in mind of a right or a privilege that should be denied. I have already stated that I do not agree with gay marriage. You have stated your point that you do. Maybe we're both right. I have also said it would be good if both sides could discuss it and each give in a little. My suggestion for a higher law and a lesser law, with rights and privileges granted to both, was I thought a good idea for a compromise. I don't know what the model would look like though.
The example I shared of my one isolated experience living near a gay couple was negative. I'm sure there are many positive experiences. I just haven't had one yet because I don't know any lesbians or homosexuals personally.
There are a lot of other equal rights issues, none of which have to do with gay marriage.
If we read anger into things we will see anger. If we read love and tollerance into things we will see love and tollerance.
What is your opinion on legalizing mirajuana and prostitution, what about child pornography and drinking for minors. Should children be allowed to vote?
Another wise person once said, "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves"
Why don't we start a list of correct principles? Are there any left in this country? America, even though it is a land of promise, has been in trouble from day one on that item.
Posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 17:43:15
In reply to Re: Hurtful comments » rayww, posted by TofuEmmy on March 7, 2005, at 12:46:30
Our children associated daily. I encouraged their friendship. I did not judge them or you or anyone else to be whatever you called it. I have learned to trust my instincts in most cases, and a few people.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 7, 2005, at 17:49:48
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.. » AuntieMel, posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 17:24:02
I'll answer further on the rest, but for now a quick one here:
What is your opinion on legalizing mirajuana and prostitution, what about child pornography and drinking for minors. Should children be allowed to vote?1) Legalizing pot - I'm all for it. It's less harmful than alcohol or tobacco, but they are legal. Now, that said, I would also regulate it like tobacco and alcohol, not allow sale to minors, control what goes into it - and tax it.
2) Legalizing prostitution - it wasn't legal in Texas when I was growing up, but it dang sure existed with wide knowledge. The "chicken ranch" was the rite of passage for many a high school boy. I was sad to see it close down, because then the boys started pressuring the girlfriends.
3) Child pornograph - strongly against legalization. The children in those 'movies' aren't old enough to make a decision. There are true victims in this case, and it makes me angry.
4) Drinking for minors. Certainly if someone is old enough (eighteen) to go to war they should be old enough to drink. I always heard (though I hear it's not true) that in the UK the drinking age is 16 and the driving age is 18. That always seemed sensible to me - let them get the hang of drinking before you give them a car.
Posted by nikkit2 on March 8, 2005, at 4:07:05
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by AuntieMel on March 7, 2005, at 17:49:48
rayww - you quite clearly indicated you thought a gay person would "harm" your children in some way. You also said "do you blame me?" at the end of it. Yes, I do actually, I cannot condone you thinking someone would hurt your child simply because they love someone of the same sex.
And rayww, you haven't told us yet why YOU think that a gay person is not equal to a straight person. You've told us that its due to your religion, but could you explain *exactly* why they are not equal. Take away the religious side of marriage and view it legally.. WHY is someone not equal to me, because they are gay?
Is someone who is black not equal to me?
Are women not equal to men?
Should interacial marriages be outlawed?By changing the subject to marajuana, child porn etc, you're not using similar examples.. I, personally, found your question about child porn to be rather strange - as if you were saying that people out there (other than a peadophile) would like to see this legalised?
1) Legalizing marajuana - all for it. Most definately. never seen anyone fight whilst stoned, but have seen hundreds fight when drunk. I, personally, think its a relatively safe drug compared to alcohol.
2) Legalizing prostitution - Yup, all for it again. It happens, we're not going to stop it.. So if we legalise it, atleast we can add a measure of safety and health into it.
3) Child pornograph - As mel said.. the children aren't old enough to make a decision. Porn of over 18's I have no problem with though.
4) Drinking for minors - well, what Mel said isn't actually correct. the legal drinking age in UK is 18, but from the age of 14 you can drink wine or beer with food (in restaurant or pub) if you're with an adult. Seems pretty sensible to me.. It also means that alot of the time a child is bought up having small amounts of alcohol, and its not seen as this bog "ooooh, alcohol, I'd better drink as much as I can".
Oh, and the age you can start learning to drive is 17 *s*
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 8, 2005, at 8:30:30
In reply to Re: marriage isn't religious.., posted by rayww on March 7, 2005, at 3:12:24
> Religious homosexual marriage is a religious mockery of the term "marriage".
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
> I was uncomfortable sending my girls over to their place at night for sleepovers.
It made you anxious? That's natural when faced with something different. Maybe this could be an opportunity to discuss your fears?
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on March 8, 2005, at 8:41:07
In reply to ???, posted by nikkit2 on March 8, 2005, at 4:07:05
Can it be any adult or does it have to be a relative? One time we were over - when my daughter was 14 - we went to a pub in Richmond for dinner. Near us were some college kids - boistrous, and funny. Our daughter was giggling like crazy and they invited her to go on a crawl with them.
In Texas, any age child can drink in public - as long as it is bought by a parent or guardian - and the parent or guardian is present.
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