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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 49 to 73 of 101. Go back in thread:
Posted by SandraDee on July 1, 2002, at 18:28:54
In reply to Re: I thought I was being supportive. » SandraDee, posted by Lou Pilder on July 1, 2002, at 15:52:17
and Yes I am greatly frustrated with you. If someone asked me what I believe in... or as Tabitha asked me - what do *I* believe the Trinity is, I can answer that without telling her of every religious event I've been to. I just tell her how I feel in my heart. I'm not sure if you hide behind "the Road" or what the deal is. I cannot figure you out, and frankly I'm exhausted trying. I can see why so many people take "breaks" from these boards. (Not saying they take them because of YOU particularly, just I can see why they do take them.) I asked you who you think are called. I believe that we are all called by God. He wants us all 'home' with Him. However some do not wish to know Him. Those are my beliefs. I believe there is a Heaven and a hell. I don't have to tell of all my experiences (notice it's experience <-- with an E) to tell you what I believe. (My word that I always mispell -by the way- is believe, believe it or not! haha) So, I hope you get the picture of where I am coming from because I have no clue how to read you at all.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 1, 2002, at 18:44:53
In reply to I do not understand you... » Lou Pilder, posted by SandraDee on July 1, 2002, at 18:28:54
SandraDee,
You appear to be looking for simple answers from me to what I consider very complex questions. Even when you say that you believe in heaven and hell, you do not define what heaven or hell are. For instance, is hell a place of eternal torment? Is hell a lake of fire? Is hell the grave?
Perhaps you can tell me what hell means to you?
best regards,
Lou
Posted by SandraDee on July 1, 2002, at 23:42:26
In reply to Re: I do not understand you... » SandraDee, posted by Lou Pilder on July 1, 2002, at 18:44:53
Having a hard time answering all your questions because you are not making any attempt to answering mine. It is not as complicated as you are making it out to be. In a paragraph: Yes *I* believe hell is awful. No, *I* do not believe it is in the grave, *I* believe it goes beyond the grave; for that is just the body, not our spirit.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 5:41:24
In reply to Having a hard time... » Lou Pilder, posted by SandraDee on July 1, 2002, at 23:42:26
SandraDee,
Ask me the question that you want me to answer and I will answer it all on one post.
Lou
Posted by SandraDee on July 2, 2002, at 9:55:18
In reply to Re: Having a hard time... » SandraDee, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 5:41:24
Here ya go: These are the 3 (THREE) links I 'spoke' with you about. The question started in the first one, which was not really answered, then I had a new simple question in the 2nd one, which wasn't answered... now I have more questions but won't ask them.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20020527/msgs/241.html
Posted by krazy kat on July 2, 2002, at 13:04:55
In reply to One last try... » Lou Pilder, posted by SandraDee on July 2, 2002, at 9:55:18
Sandra:
I had an odd thought about this - I've been following the thread but am keeping myself out of it (mostly) because when I got involved in the Gates threads previously, the same thing was frustrating to me - the answers were evaded and it went on forever, as it has again.
So, I thought, what if I answer Sandra's questions from my 'belief system' (or lack of). Maybe that will help Lou see how a straight answer can help? Your last link is such a good example:
"The young missionaries kept dancing around my question telling me they had to teach me all this other stuff before they could answer my ONE SIMPLE QUESTION"
That's absolutely what set off my gut instinct that shouted "cult" re: these threads previously and boy did I get into trouble for using that word. I'm not calling Lou's theory or whatever it is a "cult" - that's just how it felt to me because he was keeping it so mysterious.
Keep in mind I'm really agnostic right now, but I'll approach it from my Christian "history":
Sandra's first question:
"So you are saying that there is no hell or death?"
My answer would be:
It makes sense that there would be punishment for those who have not met God's criteria for a rewarding afterlife. This could be called "hell" based on the Bible. There is "death" because death refers to the demise of the body. These are both contingent on one believing in a separate spirit and a separate body.
Sandra's second question:
"We are all called, but some tend to not want to go that route (or Road) and therefore are not 'saved'?"
My answer:
"saved" is the key word here. to me, that is "meeting God's criteria". to my parents it is accepting Christ as one's savior (being "born-again"). to my husband it is believing in Christ, but Also belonging to the Catholic church.
Sandra's third question:
"Do you beleive in the trinity?"
My answer:
No. But, a Christian would. That's a simple question - the trinity is unique to Christianity (please correct me if I'm wrong, though) and it's God, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
So, imho, Sandra, your questions have been forthright and clear. The things Lou would need to define are:
If there is a separate body and spirit?
How one becomes "saved" or gets to the seventh gate, if so.
What happens to those who are not "saved" or allowed to enter this gate? Do they go to "hell"?
Does he believe in God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit?
What do you think? I probably won't answer much, because if I get pulled into this it'll be a web again, but please do offer your opinions.
- kk
Posted by lou pilder on July 2, 2002, at 13:29:22
In reply to just clarifying.... » Lou Pilder, posted by SandraDee on June 28, 2002, at 17:12:53
SandrDee,
I presume that your question is: Are the people that do not go on the 7 Gates on the Road to the Crown of Life "saved" or not?
My answer is this:
Case #1:Person travles the Road and recieves the Crown of Life. The Crown of Life is ETERNAL LIFE.
CASE#2: Person does not travle the Road and knew good from evil. That person is judged by their lifetime works. If their lifetime works are works of rightiousness that EXCEEDS the rightiousness of the most rightious Rabbis that ever lived, then they will recieve Eternal Life. This requirers keeping the commandments from their youth without ever breaking one of them. These people do not need a Redeemer for they never broke God's laws.
Case#3: People that did not have the chance to walk the Road because they found out about the Road on their deathbed and could not live an overcomming life. These people are of two types:
TypeA: Never believed in God and just wanted to extend their lives anyway that they could so that they could just have another breath. They can not accept death. These people are not "saved"
Type B: Believed that they have failed in their life to God and are extreamly sorry and know that they deserve hell. They have one last request before their last breath and that is that God will have mercy on them and actually pay their penalty for them . They want to be remembered in God's Kingdom and admit that they are guilty and do not deserve Eternal Life. God will reveal His plan of salvation to them and these people will be in Paradise.
Case#4: There is no "second chance" after death. But there are people that never had a "first" chance. These are the people that can not know what good or evil are. These are the people that died before an accountable age of decernment. These are people that never had an experiance to bring them to the knowkege of God's plan. They do not recieve Eternal Life automatically, but are treated in a manner that I do not have the time or space to tell you about. But God is a God of justice and those people are treated with the same justice as the people that had a "first " chance.
Case#5: The Chosen. These are the chosen by God. There are people that are chosen to be God's people. But these people have a higher standard in their lives to perform. They carry a greater obligation and actually enter into a covenant relationship with God. They acually become sons of God and servants of God. These people have a special mission and give up living a life that the rest of the people live. They sacrifice all for the Kingdom of God. Many of these regret that they were chosen and some commit suicide and many are murdered . God reveals His plan of salvation to them and they do recieve Eternal Life unless they rebel against God. The Devil, Satan, actually was in God's Kingdom and rebelled against Him. He will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with those that follow him for they never repented of their rebellion against God.
Case #6: People in rebellion to God and turn 180 degrees from rebellion against God to seeking God with all their heart. These people find God and God reveals His plan of salvation to them. Most of them go through a purging process that is tourterous. But people volunteer for this persecution for rightiousness sake. They accept the world's scorn. They are outcasts for the Kingdom of God and do not care what the world thinks of them. They seek to store up treasures in heaven and reject the world' ways. They carry with them their own acceptance of being executed for serving God. They recieve Eternal Life as long as they do not return to their evil ways and forsake God.
Case #6: These people know that they have really caused God grief by the way that they lived their life and are extreamly sorry and know that they deserve hell. They have no idea about the Road or anything else about God. But they cry out,"Lord have mercy upom me, a SINNER. Forgive me and I will forgive all others."
These people are taken to the Road and recieve the Crown of Life.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 2, 2002, at 14:35:53
In reply to Re: just clarifying.... » SandraDee, posted by lou pilder on July 2, 2002, at 13:29:22
to follow:
"This requirers keeping the commandments from their youth without ever breaking one of them. These people do not need a Redeemer for they never broke God's laws."
The only question left then, for Lou, is "Is Christ the Redeemer"?
Hmmm, and just out of curiosity, I would ask "Are the 'chosen people' the Jewish people, as it states in the old testament?
Sandra, please take over.... :)
Posted by SandraDee on July 2, 2002, at 15:26:36
In reply to so, the ten commandments are the rules » lou pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 2, 2002, at 14:35:53
Whew... I was beginning to think it was just me that wasn't getting through to him or something. I sooo appreciate your input - and I also knew better than to jump into this thread. I hate to cause waves, and it seems I already got a smack on the wrist from Dr. Bob - so now I'm even more afraid to post. I just don't understand why his posts are so complicated. I understand you are agnostic now, but you explained things so simply. I feel like I do too. How hard is it to say, "I believe in God. The rider is Christ." or whatever the truth is (to him). I just don't have the time or energy to deal with it anymore. I am secure in my faith, so I am not worried about that. I feel I've been supportive of him, because the fact that I ask questions alone is supportive. I just didn't want the answers lengthy and with a bunch of stuff that wasn't really necessary. I guess to Lou it's too complicated to just say "The name of the city of peace is..." or "I was in ... when I was told it was the City of Peace".. you get my point. It's too frustrating for me, and I'm thankful I'm not alone in that!
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 20:09:41
In reply to so, the ten commandments are the rules » lou pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 2, 2002, at 14:35:53
Krazy Kat,
God choses people to do missions . The apostle Paul was chosen by God to be the chief herald or the Good News. Paul, formaly Saul was a Rabbi. Jonah was chosen to warn the Ninavites to repent.He resisted and was swallowed by a great fish and vomited up on the beach of Ninaveh. Moses was chosen. Noah was chosen.
None of the above were volunteers. Jonah wanted to commit suicide. Abraham was chosen.
Many are called, few are chosen.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 20:25:08
In reply to so, the ten commandments are the rules » lou pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 2, 2002, at 14:35:53
Krazy Kat,
The commandments are the decalogue. But those 10 have other commandments that come from them. You see, the comandment to not kill someone is really only the surface of that commandment. In the depths of that commandment, if you are angry with your brother without a cause, you are in danger of the judgement. And the commandment to not commit adultery is broken if one looks upon a women to lust upon her, for he commits adultery in his heart. You see, the commandments are not only physical, but spirtual also.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 21:02:20
In reply to Having a hard time... » Lou Pilder, posted by SandraDee on July 1, 2002, at 23:42:26
Sandra Dee,
I am going to continue with the last 2 Gates. Those are the Gates that reveal God's plan of salvation. With that, then ,perhaps, we will have more illumination and things won't be so uncertian. But I have been away forom the board for a while and I do not know where I left off. Can you tell me where I left off?
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 9:50:39
In reply to The commandments » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 20:25:08
I could never believe that a thought such as looking upon a friend's wife with natural human lust, is a "sin" or a breaking of a commandment. This is partly why Some branches of Christianty upset me.
Thoughts are thoughts and if a "bad" one slips in there, the best thing to do is let it go and not harbor it. As a child, I would ask God's forgiveness for thinking bad things about my schoolmate who had no manners and cut the water fountain line. I would pray, over and over, that I be purged of the sexual feelings I had at age 10 because that was "wrong". This is partly why I am agnostic today.
Thoughts are not sins - actions are. The Ten Commandments are laws.
Are you a "chosen" one, Lou? Is this why you feel compelled to tell this story?
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 11:06:52
In reply to thoughts as sins-ten commandments, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 9:50:39
Krazy Kat,
While I was on the Road to the Crown of Life, a women came out of the woods in hysterics and accosted the Rider on the White Horse demanding that He heal her daughter that was having a psychotic episode. She had heard that He had raised a person from the dead and had sought after Him to heal her daughter. At first the Rider did not even answer her. Then He said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Then she said, "I believe that you are The Son of David and that you have come to all, including those that are not from the house of Israel."
The Rider answered her and said, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as your desire." And her daughter was healed in the same hour.
Krazy Kat, this experiance that I had told me that even though the Jews were chosen by God, all of the other people that have faith are also in the House of Israel. The House of Israel has no jew or gentile, no male or female, no this race or that race. We are all one.. The Gates on the Road have no restrictions to persons. The Crown of Life will be given to anyone that overcomes.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 11:15:34
In reply to The Chosen » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 11:06:52
Lou:
I do not want you to stop posting. And I Really appreciate that you are using this Faith Board rather than Social because I believe it serves the community better here.
I think, what has been frustrating about your posts is the long metaphorical nature of them. That does not mean you can't write as lengthy and metaphorical posts as you'd like. It's just my opinion.
These parts of your last post:
"even though the Jews were chosen by God, all of the other people that have faith are also in the House of Israel. The House of Israel has no jew or gentile, no male or female, no this race or that race. We are all one... The Crown of Life will be given to anyone that overcomes."
are still somewhat unclear to me, But so much less so than others I have seen. It answers my question about your belief about the "Chosen".
So, that's just an example of what *might* make it easier for others to understand your message. Remember, you might lose people Because of their inability to follow the story, rather than simple, clear statements to questions.
Next, define the "Crown of Life" and you're on the mark.
- kk
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 11:32:19
In reply to Clarity - IMHO » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 11:15:34
Krazy Kat,
Historically, a crown was given to one that conquered or was victorious. The Roman crown was the laural wreath. The crown was usually made of gold.
Those that were given the crowns, wore them. They were seen by others and those that wore them were considered accomplishers.
The Crown of Life is given by God to those that overcome and endure temptation. The Crown of Life is Eternal Life which the Lord has promised to those that love Him.
When you receive your Crown, people will see it on you. Not in gold, but in love, peace and joy.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 12:04:49
In reply to thoughts as sins-ten commandments, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 9:50:39
Krazy Kat,
When I was in the City of Peace, I was told that God looks at the heart of man. Thinking about commiting adultery ,to God, was explained to me to be the same as commiting adultery.
But it was further explained to me that we are all tempted. And that it is temptation that we have to overcome and God knows all about temptation for it was revealed to me the the Rider was also tempted in all things and that He was the only one ever that did not fall to any temptation.
Temptation to commit adultery is not what is unatural. It is following through with the temptaion . The Rider told me, "Flee fornication. Run away from it. For this can destroy the body."
Now I had the begginings of my experiance over 30 years ago. There was no such thing as AIDS then. I just read in my newspaper the huge amount of deaths caused by AIDS. And that the number of deaths is becomming geometrically higher. And that most of the deaths were caused by sexual transmission. Many years ago ,sexually transmitted diseases could be cured. But today, you have to be lucky when you take the chance to have sex with multiple partners or people that you do not know their sexual history of. Yes, fornication can kill. I read in the paper where people murder the person that is commiting adultery. It may be the wife that discovers her husbands infidelity. Or the husband that kills the other man. I was told to not even think of adultery for then the temptation will not be concieved to act it out. There is more to this, but that will be at your request.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 15:41:23
In reply to Re: thoughts as sins-ten commandments » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 12:04:49
Lou, they come from the brain. So do emotions. That was not known many, many years ago.
> > And that it is temptation that we have to overcome
I'll absolutely agree with you there. :) Even as an agnostic, that is the case in many areas of life. Or one can view it as, if I make this decision versus this decision, it will, in the long run, be better for me. And avoiding adultery, for many reasons, would fit into that category.
> > But today, you have to be lucky when you take the chance to have sex with multiple partners or people that you do not know their sexual history of.
Well, that's not quite true. If one uses a condom and female protection, the odds drop tremendously.
>> but that will be at your request.
Lou, I think I, and many, requested the continuation and end of this story long ago. Please do continue. And I have no idea where you left off, and Sandra has been unfairly blocked, so I don't know...
- kk
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 15:49:27
In reply to ah, but thoughts do not come from the heart... » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 15:41:23
KK,
The AIDS virus can go through a condom. The condom is not a perfect protector for mechanical reasons, also. They can break, they can fall off, they can be sabatoged to fail.
You may not be taking the same chance as without, but you still will have to take a chance.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 16:07:03
In reply to The chances » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 15:49:27
this is getting off-topic and could be a whole other thread.
just to present real info though, as well as my view, it is natural "skin" condoms that potentially allow a virus to pass through, not latex.
I would never "not" tell someone that there are risks with having sex unless one is in a monogamous relationship. But there are risks crossing the street, etc., etc.
There's a big rise in Pro-Life Right-Wing Groups pushing abstinence until marriage as the Only answer for a healthy sex life. This is propaganda and the withholding of information in some cases.
That's my 2 cents. Why don't you move on to your next stop on this journey.
- kk
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:12:46
In reply to risks from sex outside marriage » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 3, 2002, at 16:07:03
KK,
I agree that this discussion has now developed into one that should be moved to the social board.
But could you do me a favor and reserch the archives for me and find out where I left off on the Road? My computer always has the yellow eggs next to the posts and for some reason, I have difficulty going back in the archives. I always find the wrong months.
Lou
Posted by IsoM on July 3, 2002, at 16:25:47
In reply to Lou agrees with the Kat » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 16:12:46
Here, Lou, I'll even show you.
You posted about meeting Dr. Morgenstein:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020616/msgs/25726.html
Posted by kiddo on July 4, 2002, at 0:17:07
In reply to Re: just clarifying.... » SandraDee, posted by lou pilder on July 2, 2002, at 13:29:22
> SandrDee,
> I presume that your question is: Are the people that do not go on the 7 Gates on the Road to the Crown of Life "saved" or not?
> My answer is this:
> Case #1:Person travles the Road and recieves the Crown of Life. The Crown of Life is ETERNAL LIFE********
CASE #1: Person travels the road and never accepts Christ as their Savior, giving their life to Him completely, they STILL won't receive the Crown of Life.> CASE#2: Person does not travle the Road and knew good from evil. That person is judged by their lifetime works. If their lifetime works are works of rightiousness that EXCEEDS the rightiousness of the most rightious Rabbis that ever lived, then they will recieve Eternal Life. This requirers keeping the commandments from their youth without ever breaking one of them. These people do not need a Redeemer for they never broke God's laws.
CASE #2: From my understanding of the Bible, this is impossible, because the Bible says "there is none not righteous, no not one." Every man will be judged according to his works, not just the "Case #2" people.
> Case#3: People that did not have the chance to walk the Road because they found out about the Road on their deathbed and could not live an overcomming life. These people are of two types:
> TypeA: Never believed in God and just wanted to extend their lives anyway that they could so that they could just have another breath. They can not accept death. These people are not "saved"CASE #3:
TYPE A: All those people have to do is ask God to forgive them, and they will be saved, regardless of whether they are on their deathbed or not.
> Type B: Believed that they have failed in their life to God and are extreamly sorry and know that they deserve hell. They have one last request before their last breath and that is that God will have mercy on them and actually pay their penalty for them . They want to be remembered in God's Kingdom and admit that they are guilty and do not deserve Eternal Life. God will reveal His plan of salvation to them and these people will be in Paradise.
TYPE B: Again, if ANYONE repents and is truly sorry for what they have done, asks God to forgive them, they will be forgiven and enter into Heaven as well.
> Case#4: There is no "second chance" after death. But there are people that never had a "first" chance. These are the people that can not know what good or evil are. These are the people that died before an accountable age of decernment. These are people that never had an experiance to bring them to the knowkege of God's plan. They do not recieve Eternal Life automatically, but are treated in a manner that I do not have the time or space to tell you about. But God is a God of justice and those people are treated with the same justice as the people that had a "first " chance.Don't know where you are going with this one, but you are right, God is a just God, and each man judged accordingly.
> Case#5: The Chosen. These are the chosen by God. There are people that are chosen to be God's people. But these people have a higher standard in their lives to perform. They carry a greater obligation and actually enter into a covenant relationship with God. They acually become sons of God and servants of God. These people have a special mission and give up living a life that the rest of the people live. They sacrifice all for the Kingdom of God. Many of these regret that they were chosen and some commit suicide and many are murdered . God reveals His plan of salvation to them and they do recieve Eternal Life unless they rebel against God. The Devil, Satan, actually was in God's Kingdom and rebelled against Him. He will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with those that follow him for they never repented of their rebellion against God.Where do you get THIS?!!???!?!?!?! Every person that gives their life to God, sacrifices all for the Kingdom of God and lives their life according to His plan.
> Case #6: People in rebellion to God and turn 180 degrees from rebellion against God to seeking God with all their heart. These people find God and God reveals His plan of salvation to them. Most of them go through a purging process that is tourterous. But people volunteer for this persecution for rightiousness sake. They accept the world's scorn. They are outcasts for the Kingdom of God and do not care what the world thinks of them. They seek to store up treasures in heaven and reject the world' ways. They carry with them their own acceptance of being executed for serving God. They recieve Eternal Life as long as they do not return to their evil ways and forsake God.People in rebellion that have turned 180 degrees are only half as rebellious as they were before! However, those that turn 360 degrees have turned their lives around compmletely and serve God with all their hearts. Everyone 'volunteers' as you put it. Everyone accepts God willingly and freely, it's a choice that God has given man.
EVERYONE accepts Eternal Life that doesn't reject God, but accepts Him into their hearts and lives for Him.
> Case #6: These people know that they have really caused God grief by the way that they lived their life and are extreamly sorry and know that they deserve hell. They have no idea about the Road or anything else about God. But they cry out,"Lord have mercy upom me, a SINNER. Forgive me and I will forgive all others."
> These people are taken to the Road and recieve the Crown of Life.
> Lou
See Above-
Kiddo
Posted by kiddo on July 4, 2002, at 0:18:16
In reply to The Crown of Life » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 3, 2002, at 11:32:19
What people are you talking about that will 'see the Crown of Life on you"?
Kiddo
Posted by kiddo on July 4, 2002, at 0:32:55
In reply to Re: Having a hard time... » SandraDee, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2002, at 21:02:20
I had several questions you never had the chance to answer....
Why do you keep talking about the 7 Gates, if there are really 12?How did General Lee get on that horse??!?!
You said that you could lead people to the City of Peace, but the Bible says that God is the only way, are you saying you are God?
Is there a way to get in contact with Dr. Morganstern?
You aren't given a 'handbook' until you get to the City of Peace? I think that handbook is called the Bible, and without it you won't get there. What handbook are YOU referring to?
In one post, you said 'the truth will set you free.', that scripture has been misquoted for ages....it says 'the truth will MAKE you free...'
If indeed you don't have anything to do with converting people to religion, or whatever, what is it exactly that you are trying to do?
Kiddo
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