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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
I just wanted to share the success i've been seeing in the past week by adding PEA to my medication regemin. For the first time in a long time, my pessimism and darkness and anhedonia and lack of energy are gone! The PEA hits me quickly, within 15-30 minutes of ingenstion on an empty stomach, and completely turns me around -- i have energy, feel motivated, social, and most importantly, OPTIMISTIC and excited about the world.
I was taking PEA with 5mg of deprenyl but have discontinued the deprenyl and am now simply taking larger doses (500mg) a few times per day, as the effect wears off. I also notice a tingling or a "buzz" akin to nicotine/caffeine buzz.
I hope I don't build up a tolerance, but so far, so good! My doctor says there is a chance of hypertensive issues, and that responding so well to PEA means I may need a stimulant, so at my next pdoc appt we will discuss that, but until then, PEA is my hero!
-uncouth
Posted by em_kath on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
In reply to SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on February 25, 2010, at 19:05:58
That's fantastic! This sounds like just what I need... I have never heard of PEA, did your pdoc prescribe it? I am on Emsam (the selegiline patch) and have been looking for some kind of augment to help with anhedonia and lack of energy, but there are so few options on an MAOI. How long have you been on deprenyl? Were you originally on a higher dose than 5 mg? I see my pdoc next week and I would love to suggest this to him. He tends to be on the conservative side (he said prescribing a small dose of a stimulant is out of the question), do you know how commonly this is prescribed? Sorry about all the questions, I'm just encouraged to hear about a new possibility since my anhedonia and constant tiredness are not getting any better with my current treatment. But anyway I hope your success continues!
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by em_kath on February 25, 2010, at 21:08:11
Uncouth so happy for you so great to hear you doing so well. Congrats!!!!! Love Phillipa
Posted by uncouth on February 26, 2010, at 11:58:10
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by em_kath on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
definitely be careful adding PEA to deprenyl/emsam. i was on a pretty low dose of deprenyl and it likely was the onlyr eason i could tolerate high doses of PEA without a HYPERTENSIVE CRISIS. since you are on emsam it is possible that even 50mg could give you a hypertensive crisis, so you'd probably want to start at 10mg and work upwards slowly, UNDER YOUR DOCTORS SUPERVISION.
I tried emsam last year, made me feel pretty artificial, but it was powerful. eventually caused me to go psychotic and had to come off of it, but i was at high dose 12mg.
i would consider trying it again at 9mg if need be but i'm doing relatively ok right now on my current regimin.
good luck, i hope you find success with PEA. youc an buy it online. let us know how it works for you good or bad!
Posted by janejane on February 26, 2010, at 13:35:48
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on February 26, 2010, at 11:58:10
Congratulations on finding something that works! I remember how low you were so this is really encouraging.
May I ask where you buy the PEA? You can babblemail me the info if you don't want to post it. Thanks!
Posted by Ron Hill on March 4, 2010, at 4:23:50
In reply to SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
> i have energy, feel motivated, social, and most importantly, OPTIMISTIC and excited about the world.
-----------------
Couth,
After a lot of research, I added PEA to my cocktail which includes Nardil. For the first couple of weeks I experienced the exact same response as you describe. However, the benefits were short lived.
If you have to withdraw from PEA, do it very slowly. Cold turkey can cause severe rebound depression.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on March 4, 2010, at 4:29:24
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by janejane on February 26, 2010, at 13:35:48
> May I ask where you buy the PEA?
PEA is an OTC available in some vitamin stores. For example:
http://www.harvesthealth.com/unnupeap250m.html?gclid=CI3brKf26Y4CFQlKYQod22uYLQ
http://www.americannutrition.com/store/UNPEA.html
-- Ron
Posted by janejane on March 4, 2010, at 7:06:24
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by Ron Hill on March 4, 2010, at 4:29:24
Would there be any advantage to using D-phenylalanine instead?
Posted by uncouth on March 4, 2010, at 8:49:41
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » Ron Hill, posted by janejane on March 4, 2010, at 7:06:24
yes, i am going to try high dose DL-Phenylalanine as well. The PEA "buzz" is associated for me with a bit of hypertension and doesn't last too long...unfortunately it seems rather a bit like cocaine (though i've never tried and would never). I also convinced by pdoc to prescribe me adderall given my good results with PEA...so far i'm using both however...not the intended behavior :(
But definitely feeling PEA tolerance. higher doses have been needed. Which is worrisome.
Posted by uncouth on March 6, 2010, at 21:46:22
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on March 4, 2010, at 8:49:41
wanted to give an update. i have had to progressively increase my dose of PEA to what I have to admit is a very high dose -- 8 grams a day in divided doses
HOWEVER - i still have to say, this is the most remarkable mood altering substance I've ever been on. it's absolutely incredible, the depression is JUST GONE. I have become much more social, active, optimistic, hopeful, and POSITIVE in teh past 10 days. it's just incredible.
i wish i had discovered this before my ECT and summer of HELLish depression!!!!
Posted by janejane on March 8, 2010, at 9:44:31
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on March 6, 2010, at 21:46:22
Thanks for the update and congratulations on your continued success. Keep us posted, especially if you decide to try DLPA. (Just curious, why not pure DPA instead?)
Posted by Economist on March 20, 2010, at 23:25:04
In reply to SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
uncouth,
I'm not able to find any dosing information about how much phenylethylamine to take for mood disorders. I am also on the EMSAM/selegiline patch right now (6 mg, lowest dose) with no effects, so I want to try adding something to it. However, I keep reading that PEA is a no-no with EMSAM. What is the recommended PEA dosage without EMSAM, and how much should I take if I am currently on it?
Posted by Economist on March 20, 2010, at 23:28:57
In reply to SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on February 26, 2010, at 9:03:42
According to Wiki:
Phenethylamine "is sold as a dietary supplement for purported mood and weight loss-related therapeutic benefits; however, orally ingested phenethylamine is usually inactive on account of extensive first-pass metabolism by monoamine oxidase (MAO) into phenylacetic acid, preventing significant concentrations from reaching the brain."
So does this mean that taking PEA pills essentially amounts to taking nothing, since MOA breaks it down before it can reach the brain?
Posted by uncouth on March 21, 2010, at 8:45:18
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by Economist on March 20, 2010, at 23:28:57
no, but you have to take a lot of PEA, *or*, take it with a MAO-B inhibitor like deprenyl. both i have tried.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2010, at 1:47:52
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by Economist on March 20, 2010, at 23:25:04
> I'm not able to find any dosing information about how much phenylethylamine to take for mood disorders. I am also on the EMSAM/selegiline patch right now (6 mg, lowest dose) with no effects, so I want to try adding something to it. However, I keep reading that PEA is a no-no with EMSAM. What is the recommended PEA dosage without EMSAM, and how much should I take if I am currently on it?
Prior to my trial of adding PEA to Nardil, I conducted extensive research. As a result, I have a couple hundred documents bookmarked in my Favorites.
The following link is a chapter in a book. It is a fairly comprehensive coverage of PEA. The chapter starts on page 92 and ends on page 108. Use the page forward/back icon in the upper left corner of the document to move from page to page. A couple pages are not available, so just click past them.
The above document does not address using PEA with EMSAM. If you decide to try adding PEA to your EMSAM, start with a very low dosage of PEA and monitor your blood pressure closely.
There are PEA dosage data in the literature for 10 mg of selegiline (i.e.; selective MAOI-B), and for Nardil. Based on these data, I used 13 mg/day of PEA as an add-on to my 90 mg/day of Nardil. I monitored my blood pressure very closely.
PEA comes in 250 mg capsules. To get an accurate measurement of 13 mg/day, I opened the 250 mg PEA capsule and dissolved it in 2 liters of water. Then I poured the appropriate volume (104 ml) of the PEA solution into a water bottle such that it contained 13 mg of PEA. I took small drinks from the water bottle throughout the day.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2010, at 4:33:49
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by Economist on March 20, 2010, at 23:25:04
Opps. The chapter starts on page 83, not page 92 as I stated in my previous post.
Posted by Economist on March 24, 2010, at 10:07:33
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » Economist, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2010, at 1:47:52
Is taking the full 250 mg of PEA with low dose selegiline too much? The original poster said he took 500 mg.
Posted by Economist on March 24, 2010, at 10:09:28
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » Economist, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2010, at 1:47:52
Woops, sorry. I might have read the original post incorrectly. It seems he started taking 500 mg after stopping selegiline?
I don't have an mL dropper. What amount of PEA is dangerous with selegiline?
Posted by uncouth on March 24, 2010, at 10:44:56
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » Ron Hill, posted by Economist on March 24, 2010, at 10:09:28
i would definitely tro taking PEA without selegiline first. taking it with selegiline is really chancy and even something as low as 50mg might provide a super strong effect. start THAT low, and start with low seligiline, like 5mg a day. but now ive built tolerance so i can take 500mg with 5mg of seleigline effectively.
i am stopping the selegiline though at the request of my doctor and staying with taking 500-1000mg of PEA multiple times per day.
Posted by Economist on March 24, 2010, at 13:19:48
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on March 24, 2010, at 10:44:56
I just started my treatment with the EMSAM patch two weeks ago, so I won't be able to stop right now.
But I would really like to see if PEA has any effect on me.
I'm not sure how I can measure a small amount of PEA while on selegiline. Should I just take a rough dab of it on my finger and place it under my tongue or something?
I am currently taking 1500 mg of DLPA in the morning. No freaking difference. Doesn't DLPA end up as PEA anyway as it breaks down? Does my lack of response with DLPA mean I won't have a response with PEA as well?
Posted by uncouth on March 24, 2010, at 13:23:16
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » uncouth, posted by Economist on March 24, 2010, at 13:19:48
NO: it does not. Stop the DLPA before you start the PEA. Start out with literally a tiny dose, 10mg. The capsules are 250mg so this is really just tiny amount. Increase in 20mg increments. If you take the powder on an empty stomach, you'll be able to know within 30 minutes if it is doing anything, so re-dose every 30 minutes ncreasing the dose slowly until you get a response.
D-Phenylethylamine does break down to PEA but im not sure in what quantities and over what time period.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 25, 2010, at 17:19:51
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » Ron Hill, posted by Economist on March 24, 2010, at 10:07:33
> Is taking the full 250 mg of PEA with low dose selegiline too much? The original poster said he took 500 mg.
Economist,
This is a long post, but stick with me. I think it will be worth your time.
The two links immediately below are abstracts. Please read both of them prior to reading further in this post.
Abstract #1:
Abstract #2:
Okay. Next, we need to find a way to access the Full Text versions for both of these abstracts. However, doing so is not straight forward because the Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences does not offer free access to their Full Text versions. Therefore, since we cannot go through the front door, we will go through a back door to gain access to the Full Text versions.Here is the gist of our method: There exists a Full Text version of a study that explores the correlation between exercise and endogenous levels of PEA. As it turns out, the two Full Text documents that we are looking for are references at the bottom of the Exercise document. Better still, the references have hot-links.
The last thing I need to tell you is that access to the Exercise document requires you to complete a free registration form. Okay, let's do it:
1. Click here: http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/35/5/342
2. Click on the Free Registration link.
3. Fill out the Free Registration form and, when you are done, you will more than likely be automatically routed to the full text version of the Exercise article. If so, skip Steps 4 and 5 below. If not, follow the instructions in Steps 4 and 5 below to pull-up the Exercise document.
{4.} Click here: http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/35/5/342
{5.} Fill in your user name and password that you specified when you registered. The full text of the Exercise article will come up on your screen.
6. Scroll down until you get to the References section at the bottom of the Exercise full text article. Now we have arrived at the back door. The two articles we want are Reference #2 and Reference #3. Click on one of them.
7. The abstract of the article will come up. In the menu box on the right hand side of the page, (directly adjacent to the abstract text), click the Full Text(PDF)link.
8. If you are patient, the pdf text will come up in a minute or so. If youve got ants in your pants, you can save 30 seconds or so by clicking [Begin manual download].
9. Read the Full Text pdf article, and print it if you wish. Then return to the list of references at the bottom of the Exercise article, and repeat the process for the other hot-link.
10. If you have time, read the exercise document (a.k.a.; "Phenylethylamine, a possible link to the antidepressant effects of exercise?")
As you know, at 10 mg/day, selegiline is a selective MAOI-B. However, at higher selegiline daily dosages, it is an MAOI-A and an MAOI-B (i.e.; non-selective).
In accordance with the study that you just read, it appears that 60 mg/day of PEA is safe to take with 10 mg/day of selegiline. However, at higher dosages of selegiline, 60 mg/day of PEA might cause problems; like a hypertensive crisis. However, everyone is different.
When I conducted a PEA trial a couple years ago, I took 13 mg/day of PEA with my usual 90 mg/day of Nardil. As soon as I took my first dose of PEA, my blood pressure immediately jumped from my usual 110/70 to 142/84 and it stayed there throughout my PEA add-on trial.
So, for what it is worth, my recommendation is to start low and go slow if you plan to add PEA to a non-selective MAOI.
Monitor your blood pressure. Do you have a blood pressure measuring machine? Do you carry a hypertensive antidote (e.g.; nifedipine) with you at all times? IMHO, everyone taking an MAOI should have both.
Rule #1: Nobody gets hurt!
Rule #2: Don't forget Rule #1!!-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II with ultra rapid cycling, and mild OCPD
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
500 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
1.9 mg/day Deplin (taken with methyl B-12 and P-5-P)
Dark therapy via LowBlueLight glasses
High dosage of fish oil, 300 mg/day phosphatidylserene, and several other vitamins and supplements
Posted by meltingpot on April 19, 2010, at 10:00:31
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA), posted by uncouth on March 24, 2010, at 13:23:16
I tried DLPA and it didn't do anything. I have the same question as the previous poster, does that mean that PEA wouldn't help me. Also, I'm not taking an MAOI, I'm just on Seroxat.
Where did you order your PEA from? did you get it from your Doctor?
Denise
Posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2010, at 14:40:02
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) Uncouth, posted by meltingpot on April 19, 2010, at 10:00:31
Denise
> I tried DLPA and it didn't do anything. I have the same question as the previous poster, does that mean that PEA wouldn't help me. Also, I'm not taking an MAOI, I'm just on Seroxat.
To make PEA work, the patient must be taking an MAOI. More specifically, the MAOI must have an MAOI-B component. MAO-B metabolizes PEA very quickly. Therefore, to raise the level of PEA in the brain, MAO-B must be inhibited.
The following article is an excellent overview of MAOI's, but it is more complex than what is needed to answer your question. Therefore, just read page 3 where it states that MAO-B metabolizes PEA (phenylethylamine).
http://www.psy-world.com/1008CNS_Stahl.pdf
> Where did you order your PEA from? did you get it from your Doctor?
PEA is an OTC. Two vendors are:http://www.harvesthealth.com/unnupeap250m.html?gclid=CI3brKf26Y4CFQlKYQod22uYLQ
http://www.americannutrition.com/store/UNPEA.html
-- Ron
Posted by meltingpot on April 23, 2010, at 9:00:24
In reply to Re: SUCCESS! - Phenylethylamine (PEA) » meltingpot, posted by Ron Hill on April 21, 2010, at 14:40:02
Thanks for this information Ron.
Denise
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