![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 74 to 98 of 112. Go back in thread:
Posted by barbaracat on April 14, 2005, at 23:28:57
In reply to Neuroscience tests...why don't you call them and » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 14, 2005, at 11:25:04
Thanks for the suggestion, JoeBob. Actually, I did talk to someone about 6 months ago. He was one of the research guys and developer of the products and we exchanged a half dozen emails. I expressed my concern that they were using 5-HTP instead of tryptophan and got the usual rap about some people died from a contaminated batch and besides, 5-HTP is actually better and so on. I told him I disagreed that it was better, that for some people, like myself, 5-HTP actually makes me feel worse. I referred to the first conversion step that gets bypassed that is an important step in other cellular processes, as well as the fact that 5-HTP targets brain receptors sites only, whereas L-tryptophan targets serotonin receptor sites in the gut and peripheral muscles, important for someone like myself who has fibromyalgia.
In short, he thanked me for the info, said he wasn't aware of these mechanics or that some people did worse on 5-HTP and he would look into providing a tryptophan product. Needless, to say this discussion did not inspire me with confidence.
Neuroscience is not the only company offering these tests. In fact, they're springing up all over the web and it's either due to the fact that some new testing breakthrough has occurred or, disturbingly, a breakthrough has not occurred. I truly hope your friends are experiencing good things with the program. It would be great to get some actual reports.
Here's an interesting read by another company. I think if I were to have this test done, this protocol makes the most sense to me.
http://www.neuroreplete.com/Neurotransmitter_testing_and_amino_acid_therapy.pdf
> talk to dr. kellerman..from what i have been told he is very open to questions.....
> if he won't talk to you, i could ask one of the folks who is using his system to make thc call...
> he gives seminars and there are cd's of them, but i only have the last 4 of 6....
> i will forward these posts to the folks who use the system and ask for their input
>
> maybe larry would be willing to call, he's the most kowledgable
>
> we'll see what happens
Posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 21:01:05
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 8:29:10
Thanks for the great reply, Larry. I've been digging around and the only lab and company that looks like it half knows what it's doing for neurotransmitter testing is this one: - if you can ignore the crappy website design (those revolving logos were driving me bonkers):
http://www.labdbs.com/home_page.htm
NeuroResearch is the company owned by same lab. There are a fews links that go somewhat into the testing methodology, namely using a urine creatinine ratio protocol. I'm going to do some more research and then give them a call. It'll take a lot of convincing but it'll still be interesting to talk with them. At any rate, he certainly has his opinions about some of the other operations out there, which I definitely share. Will keep you posted. - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2005, at 22:17:59
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 21:01:05
> Thanks for the great reply, Larry. I've been digging around and the only lab and company that looks like it half knows what it's doing for neurotransmitter testing is this one: - if you can ignore the crappy website design (those revolving logos were driving me bonkers):
>
> http://www.labdbs.com/home_page.htm
>
> NeuroResearch is the company owned by same lab. There are a fews links that go somewhat into the testing methodology, namely using a urine creatinine ratio protocol. I'm going to do some more research and then give them a call. It'll take a lot of convincing but it'll still be interesting to talk with them. At any rate, he certainly has his opinions about some of the other operations out there, which I definitely share. Will keep you posted. - BarbaraWhoa! That is one of the crappiest website layouts I've ever seen! And there should have been a little grammar/spell-checking, too.
I'll give them one thing....they're honest about what they offer.
http://www.labdbs.com/indication%20for%20high%20dose%20amino%20acid%20therapy.htm
"The bottom line is if you have a patient with neurotransmitter dysfunction simply start them on the amino acids as per the treatment protocols established by NeuroResearch and following neurotransmitter testing guidelines recommended by NeuroResearch once treatment us underway. Neurotransmitter testing is of no value or benefit at this time when preformed prior to starting treatment of the patient."
Also:
"Most important, use of neurotransmitter testing verifies that we are not over loading the patient with amino acids and/or neurotransmitters."Lar
Posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 23:51:30
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2005, at 22:17:59
>
> Whoa! That is one of the crappiest website layouts I've ever seen! And there should have been a little grammar/spell-checking, too.
>**That's for sure. DBS hopefully Delivers Better Service because they certainly don't Deliver Better Syntax or Deliver Better Sites. You've gotta wonder if this is a stereotype of Scientists Don't Do Humanities or an indication of something worse. Oh well, a pretty site isn't as important as Delivering Better Stuff or Science, or...
The one article scattered hither and yon that I found interesting was the info on neuro tests being optimized within the last 5 years in Europe but only for Ser, NE, D and, what was the fourth, GABA? So the so-called labs offering testing for everything plus PEA and histamine and more are right away suspect cause the science just ain't there (oops, bad grammar). - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 16, 2005, at 9:14:02
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 23:51:30
> The one article scattered hither and yon that I found interesting was the info on neuro tests being optimized within the last 5 years in Europe but only for Ser, NE, D and, what was the fourth, GABA? So the so-called labs offering testing for everything plus PEA and histamine and more are right away suspect cause the science just ain't there (oops, bad grammar). - Barbara
The science isn't there.
Again, from DBS labs:
" We have become aware of claims that neurotransmitter testing could be used to diagnose illness. There is no in clinic patient treatment data or work in the world to support claims such as this. Furthermore, the hyperexcretion of neurotransmitters means that the testing is meaningless for diagnostic purposes at this time."As I said from the beginning, a good clinical history is the only thing that can be used to suggest treatment, and if they're selling you lab tests, they're doing so to line their pockets with extra money, and to add a little hocus-pocus to their delivery. Then they can sell you supplements at far higher than the normal market value.
The treatment lies in the supplements, not the hocus-pocus.
Lar
Posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:07:55
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 23:51:30
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=52.54
kellerman is the guy who started the whole deal, and does the various conferences/lecuture circuits...
i would LOVE to know what he has to say to you...please keep me/us updated
thanks,
joebob
Posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:13:11
In reply to if you are going call anyone ( great idea) try.... » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:07:55
of of dr.kellerman and his work and is a competitor...better that you call the real guy and quiz him
vs:
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=52.54
good luck
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 16, 2005, at 13:46:26
In reply to if you are going call anyone ( great idea) try.... » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:07:55
> http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=52.54
>
> kellerman is the guy who started the whole deal, and does the various conferences/lecuture circuits...I'm curious.....his bio says he has published 25 articles or something like that. I just searched Pubmed using Kellerman and the following individual keywords: neurotransmitter, urine, hormone, catecholamine.....nothing. No hits.
If you go to the Library link on the Neurorelief website, under References and Studies....
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=108.109.110.111.112.113.114
Nothing from Kellerman, in the references to his own company? Bizarre. Or....
> i would LOVE to know what he has to say to you...please keep me/us updated
>
> thanks,
> joebobAre his lectures online somewhere?
Lar
Posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 20:29:16
In reply to Re: if you are going call anyone ( great idea) try.... » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on April 16, 2005, at 13:46:26
Posted by joebob on April 18, 2005, at 12:16:55
In reply to not that i know, but i have 4 of 6 cds, mail 'em ? (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 20:29:16
Thank you for passing on this link to us. I did follow the threads and
I
can see why you are concerned. I have passed it along to the
appropriate
staff.I am not sure which points concern you the most. If you would like to
call
me toll free at 888-342-7272, I could discuss your concerns with you.Melissa Ahrens
Customer Service
NeuroScience Inc.
373 280th Street, Osceola WI 54020, tel. 715-294-2144
http://www.neuroscienceinc.com
Posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
In reply to bcat, lar.. phone # for qeustions re urine testing, posted by joebob on April 18, 2005, at 12:16:55
I have experience with the urine testng and thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
Neurotransmitters (NT) get spilled over into the urine thru the kidneys. Hyperexcretion (spillng over into the urine) of NT are cause by imbalances of brain chemistry. Which is caused by stress, anxiety, emotional events. Getting overly stressed is not a good thing. You will spill out valueable levels of NT into your urine. Staying calm is a good thing. It keeps your levels of important NT up to good levels. Once you get out of balance it is hard to get the levels back up and get the system feedback balancing system operating again.
Urine testing gives indications of the levels of NT. Whats low and Whats high. They know what the proper levels should be and the ratios. They know what the theraputic levels during treatment phase should be.
I have been apart of this process but I am not connected in anyway with these companies. I only provide this information because there are people out there that could use it.
We tried using our own seperately purchased nutrients from the health food store to regulate brain chemistry. We then got connected with the NeuroScience testing and the results showed that we were not balancing the NT with our regimine of store bought supplements. After a short time using the NeuroScience formulas the additional tests showed that the NT balance was balancing out really nicely. The tests results correlated and backed up what we were trying to accomplish by giving certain Neuro Science's supplement formulas. For example at first we we trying to boost the inhibatory neurotransmitters to slow down the hyper excreation of the NT thru the urine. Once the system was calmed down then we could proceed with other treatments for the NT system. Certain ingrediants do certain things and the tests showed that the supplements we were using did indeed do their job as described.
I am not a doctor but very informed on the subject. So take this information as you may.
Posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 16:30:30
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
Posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 16:33:17
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
other supps, too? or just the neuroscience stuff?
Posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 19:03:22
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
hear more........it's important to us...the cost of the ns supps is high by my standards and i can pretty well replicate the formulas myself
thanks so much,
joebob
> I have experience with the urine testng and thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
>
> Neurotransmitters (NT) get spilled over into the urine thru the kidneys. Hyperexcretion (spillng over into the urine) of NT are cause by imbalances of brain chemistry. Which is caused by stress, anxiety, emotional events. Getting overly stressed is not a good thing. You will spill out valueable levels of NT into your urine. Staying calm is a good thing. It keeps your levels of important NT up to good levels. Once you get out of balance it is hard to get the levels back up and get the system feedback balancing system operating again.
>
> Urine testing gives indications of the levels of NT. Whats low and Whats high. They know what the proper levels should be and the ratios. They know what the theraputic levels during treatment phase should be.
>
> I have been apart of this process but I am not connected in anyway with these companies. I only provide this information because there are people out there that could use it.
>
> We tried using our own seperately purchased nutrients from the health food store to regulate brain chemistry. We then got connected with the NeuroScience testing and the results showed that we were not balancing the NT with our regimine of store bought supplements. After a short time using the NeuroScience formulas the additional tests showed that the NT balance was balancing out really nicely. The tests results correlated and backed up what we were trying to accomplish by giving certain Neuro Science's supplement formulas. For example at first we we trying to boost the inhibatory neurotransmitters to slow down the hyper excreation of the NT thru the urine. Once the system was calmed down then we could proceed with other treatments for the NT system. Certain ingrediants do certain things and the tests showed that the supplements we were using did indeed do their job as described.
>
> I am not a doctor but very informed on the subject. So take this information as you may.
Posted by coach on April 21, 2005, at 8:07:14
In reply to so does it..did it work for you? (nm) » coach, posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 16:30:30
I am not the user but the supplements are working for our situation. The tests results have correlated with the observations I have made. You can watch behavior and then look at the test results and they are in line. We only use the NS supplements. I read from another website (not NS) that uses aminoacid Pre-cursor therapy that they have had problems when users start takeing multi-vitamins. I know multivitamins dont usually have aminoacids but aminoAcids compete for access across the blood brain barrier so definitly you want to watch mixing aminoacids. Most of the supplements have you take them 30 minute before a meal. To prevent that sort of thing. With the testing you can figure pretty quickly , I would say a week or two, if the supplements are doing what they are designed to do. Thats what so good about the testing. You can see whats going on inside.
Posted by coach on April 21, 2005, at 8:17:47
In reply to do you have babblemail turned on...i'd love to » coach, posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 19:03:22
I turned it on.
Posted by joebob on April 21, 2005, at 22:17:50
In reply to Re: do you have babblemail turned on...i'd love to, posted by coach on April 21, 2005, at 8:17:47
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
> We tried using our own seperately purchased nutrients from the health food store to regulate brain chemistry. We then got connected with the NeuroScience testing and the results showed that we were not balancing the NT with our regimine of store bought supplements. After a short time using the NeuroScience formulas the additional tests showed that the NT balance was balancing out really nicely. The tests results correlated and backed up what we were trying to accomplish by giving certain Neuro Science's supplement formulas.
I appreciate the tests were being used as feedback, but you don't say if you were taking the correct stuff (storebought nutrients) before using the Neuroscience products. Also, all you speak of is urine testing. How did you feel?
> For example at first we we trying to boost the inhibatory neurotransmitters to slow down the hyper excreation of the NT thru the urine. Once the system was calmed down then we could proceed with other treatments for the NT system. Certain ingrediants do certain things and the tests showed that the supplements we were using did indeed do their job as described.
>
> I am not a doctor but very informed on the subject. So take this information as you may.The urine test does *not* show that the supplements were doing their job. How you *feel* does. Not once did you mention pre-testing symptoms, symptom remission, or treatment effects in terms of symptoms.
Lar
Posted by coach on April 26, 2005, at 15:27:02
In reply to Re: Urine Testing » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
Larry,
I am not the patient but I am trying to help out a family member. Sorry I can't give you personal feedback on how I feel. But I would like to maintain some privacy here , so I wont give out specific details. I want to help out so I will say what we observed and what the tests showed were in line. It is a complex system we are dealing with so it is not cut and dried. But we did see improvements in what was being felt and what the supplements were designed to do and what we were trying to accomplish. My observations from watching behavior closely was that things were improving. We tried our own store bought supplements individually but I dont think we got as good of an effect as the NS supplements. But I am not here to sell you anything. If I were to make any suggestion it would be the testing opens up a whole new window to see whats going on and how your supplements are working to change your chemistry. For Example if you take the Neuroscience product to boost serotonin and if you tested before and after takeing the supplements for a week or 2 you will see improvements in your test results. Like I said we saw a correlation in behavior that was inline with the improvements of test results.
Posted by coach on April 26, 2005, at 15:44:11
In reply to Re: Urine Testing » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
Larry, In response to the statement:
> I appreciate the tests were being used as >feedback, but you don't say if you were taking >the correct stuff (storebought nutrients) >before using the Neuroscience products. Also, >all you speak of is urine testing. How did you >feel?I would say this, The reason for the testing is to know exactly what is needed. Tests results as well as how you feel are taken into account. Its not just strictly test results but they do know what ideal levels are and what the theraputic levels and ratios should be. I most likely was not giving the perfectly correct supplements before and giving them in the most efficient ratios. You can overload the system. By going to the NS supplements I most likely was giving a more efficient supplement. I read on one website but I cant remember which one, that they saw problems with a person takeing a multivitamin because it was messing with their nutritional regimine they were trying to treat the person with.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 7:38:00
In reply to Testing and Store Bought Supplements, posted by coach on April 26, 2005, at 15:44:11
> Larry, In response to the statement:
>
> > I appreciate the tests were being used as >feedback, but you don't say if you were taking >the correct stuff (storebought nutrients) >before using the Neuroscience products. Also, >all you speak of is urine testing. How did you >feel?
>
> I would say this, The reason for the testing is to know exactly what is needed. Tests results as well as how you feel are taken into account. Its not just strictly test results but they do know what ideal levels are and what the theraputic levels and ratios should be. I most likely was not giving the perfectly correct supplements before and giving them in the most efficient ratios. You can overload the system. By going to the NS supplements I most likely was giving a more efficient supplement. I read on one website but I cant remember which one, that they saw problems with a person takeing a multivitamin because it was messing with their nutritional regimine they were trying to treat the person with.I thing the issues in debate are not the same on both sides of this conversation. I am not meaning to sound in the least bit dismissive, or sceptical. I'm unconvinced.
Your earlier posts were that taking the NS supplements affected urinary parameters. I asked about mood response, as it wasn't really clear, in that regard. You acknowledge mood response.
I'm a scientist, and I always want to know what's going on. But, at the same time, I'm always cautious in what I'll acknowledge that we can learn from a particular set of observations.
The NS supplements are correlated with changes in urinary components.
The NS supplements are correlated with improved mood? (you didn't really say).Correlations have four possible explanations.
1. Random chance sampling.
2. Variable A affects Variable B.
3. Variable B affects Variable A.
4. Both A and B are affected by a third variable, C.You state that NS supps lead to changes in urinary neurotransmitter content. I have no reason to doubt that, and the second type of correlation is most likely.
You state that NS supps lead to changes in mood. Again, the second explanation seems valid.
However, the hypothesis that changes in urine affect mood is not supported by the evidence, and we already know that the fourth type of correlation is in operation. Two variables, each separately correlated with a third variable, will also be correlated to each other. In other words, the urine output and mood changes are a chance correlation, simply because they have a common cause.
So, at the end of the day, I find no evidence that urinary components have any bearing whatsoever on the mood effectiveness of the NS supplements. My earlier hypothesis that the supplements will affect mood, as their primary effect, is not invalidated by anything NS or anyone else has ever published.
It is my sincere belief that they sell you the urinalysis for two reasons: to make even more money from you; and to give you a reason to believe in what they are doing. Faith in your caregiver is a good thing. Faith alone can improve response. But, in the end, all and everything taken into account, it comes down to eating supps and feeling better.
As a scientist, this is how I apply my training. And, as a person, this is how I judge it.
Lar
Posted by coach on April 27, 2005, at 10:21:56
In reply to Re: Testing and Store Bought Supplements » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 7:38:00
Larry,
I see your view point. I am not here to sell you anything so I wont go on any further on testing. If you want to try it out and see if it can help you then thats up to you. If later down the road it pans out that it was just a bunch hocus pocus I will get back on here and let everyone know. But as of right now it has been working so we will keep on the track.
The whole idea of urinary excreation of neurotransmitters is still being figured out. It may be something to research on and learn about. I think they do know that stressful excitable situations will increase the excreation of neurotransmitters thru the kidneys to the urine. The reasons why is unknown. But what I take from that is if you try to "not" get stressed or out of controll emotionally you can preserve you levels of NT's in the brain thus saving your valueable stores of NT's. Its been noted also that as the system gets calmed down the urinary excreation slows down thus not loosing valuable stores of NT's. Thats why they always try to calm the system down first with inhibatory regimine of amino supplements then add excitatory aminos and precursors later. ITs all a big balancing act that needs to have sufficient levels of NT's to help the system work and stay balanced. Like priming a pump. You have to have enough to get the system kick started. The thing against drugs is they dont increase your working levels of NT's but they just deal with the low levels you got. By blocking the reuptake or the break down of the NT's they make more "seem" available. But if your extremely low in the first place alot of times you have too low of levels for even the drugs to work. Once the system gets out of balance it can be hard to get it inbalance again and it takes time. MY advice is to try and not to excited about anything, boost your NT's with amino acid therapy, and make sure you know what NT's need addressed by urinary testing. Whoops I wasnt supposed to mention testing again , oh well.
Posted by coach on April 27, 2005, at 12:42:13
In reply to Re: Testing and Store Bought Supplements, posted by coach on April 27, 2005, at 10:21:56
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 8:48:14
In reply to Article, posted by coach on April 27, 2005, at 12:42:13
> http://www.fwweekly.com/content.asp?article=169.
Hey coach. I feel like you are hurt or upset or something by my manner of discussing this treatment program. That's not what I'm trying to do at all.
If I may state my case simply, I hope you see that we're actually promoting the same mechanism of finding wellness.
Getting the right nutrients can heal mental illness. It is a fundamental core belief of mine, and I'm sure you'll find ample evidence on this board to support that.
With respect to NS and similar clinical entities....
I believe their nutrient plans work to relieve mental health issues.
I believe that urine testing is irrelevant to the effects of the nutrients on mental health, as even the proponents (those selling this testing) provide not a single shred of medical evidence that urine analysis tells us anything at all. Check the onsite references. There simply aren't any that apply to urinalysis.
Back to the core belief....the nutrients promote wellness. But, wellness would occur (or not), totally irrespective of whether anyone is measuring urinary excretion, or not. 90% of neurotranmsitter biochemistry occurs outside the brain, and the liver kicks in to deal with any excess floating around. Making urine a certain way does not translate into evidence that the brain has been made to be a certain way. It could simply mean your liver is working right.
I am far more interested in finding out how many patients get nice urine but are still unwell, or how many patients start feeling better but still have weird urine, or how many simply are not helped. Selecting out the success stories for publicity tells us nothing about efficacy. Failing to seek publication of trial data (Surely, with thousands of these urine tests on file, and all the subjects who supplied them, there's enought data to publish about even an open trial.) keeps me extremely sceptical. I've been published. It's not hard to get published. If I had something that worked, I wouldn't be keeping the data secret.
No, even the urine laboratory posts a major disclaimer on its website, that the concentrations of neurotransmitters and metabolites in urine is of no diagnostic value. If its of no diagnostic value, why is it being done?
Lar
Posted by coach on April 28, 2005, at 9:50:47
In reply to Re: Article » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 8:48:14
I see your concerns about nothing to back up the testing. I am not a scientist so I look at things more simply. But I am in a technical field so I do look at details. But simple put when the behavior is backed up by the test results and then the treatment approach is shown to be working thru the test results and new behavior then it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is some validity to this.
Now if the test results showed elevations in certain neurotransmitters that did not make sense in view of the persons feelings or behavior then it would be hard to figure that it's valid. Plus if the supplements were supposed to boost serotonin and the test results showed that serotonin went lower and dopamine went higher then it would be hard to believe its validity.
But I do know where you are coming from , you are a scientist and you are trained to rely on hard facts and research studies in controlled situations. This is a new field and they are trying to learn things as fast as they can and hopefully they will fund some research projects. But I would imagine they view their test results as proprietery and they have to make money to be able to further the cause. Its the American way, I think?
I think you can go by feelings alone and use the current knowledge of supplements to affect your feelings. But I think its not as accurate as getting test results of 10 or 12 neurotransmitter plus taking into account feelings and behavior. Maybe urine testing is not perfect but it another tool that gives indications of whats going on inside you. Its not the magic bullet but its a diagnostic tool that is no invasive and easy to do. I wish it was less expensive so more pepole could use it but I think some insurances pay for it. Neuro Science works thru Doctors not directly with the public. Their stuff is used in conjuction with the Doctors other treatment options. If your going to a Doctor then the insurance should pay for some of the diagnostic procedures.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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