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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 24 to 48 of 112. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on November 18, 2004, at 1:47:04
In reply to Re: Vitamin D vs light therapy for SAD, posted by jrbecker on November 15, 2004, at 13:08:38
> this was just one study, and albeit a small one, however, the finding was still interesting in that it showed that a very high dose of vit D was superior to light therapy. Unfortunately, I couldn't locate the fulltext of the study to investigate its methodology, nonetheless, it highlights further evidence for the usefulness of vitamin D in SAD.
>
>
> J Nutr Health Aging. 1999;3(1):5-7.
>
> Vitamin D vs broad spectrum phototherapy in the treatment of seasonal affective disorder.
>
> Gloth FM 3rd, Alam W, Hollis B.
>
> The Department of Medicine, The Union Memorial Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland 21218-2895, USA.
>
> Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) is prevalent when vitamin D stores are typically low. Broad-spectrum light therapy includes wavelengths between 280-320 nm which allow the skin to produce vitamin D. This study was designed to test the hypothesis that vitamin D deficiency might play a role in SAD. A prospective, randomized controlled trial was conducted in a group of 15 subjects with SAD. Eight subjects received 100,000 I.U. of vitamin D and seven subjects received phototherapy. At the onset of treatment and after 1 month of therapy subjects were administered the Hamilton Depression scale, the SIGH-SAD, and the SAD-8 depression scale. All subjects also had serum levels of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25-OH D) measured before and 1 week after intervention therapy. All subjects receiving vitamin D improved in all outcome measures. The phototherapy group showed no significant change in depression scale measures. Vitamin D status improved in both groups (74% vitamin D group, p < 0.005 and 36% phototherapy group, p < 0.01). Improvement in 25-OH D was significantly associated with improvement in depression scale scores (r2=0.26; p=0.05). Vitamin D may be an important treatment for SAD. Further studies will be necessary to confirm these findings.
>
> Publication Types:
> Clinical Trial
> Randomized Controlled Trial
>
Thanks. I have been using my lightbox again so I'm not sure how much I should increase my vitamin D intake. Even if the D is more effective for SAD, the lightbox also helps me keep my sleep-wake cycle regulated.
Posted by jrbecker on November 18, 2004, at 14:01:57
In reply to Re: Vitamin D vs light therapy for SAD » jrbecker, posted by KaraS on November 18, 2004, at 1:47:04
have you been cognizant of any benefits from the Vitamin D supplemenation?
Posted by KaraS on November 18, 2004, at 20:52:04
In reply to Re: Vitamin D vs light therapy for SAD » KaraS, posted by jrbecker on November 18, 2004, at 14:01:57
> have you been cognizant of any benefits from the Vitamin D supplemenation?
>I haven't started it yet. I'm trying to figure out how much I should take given that I am already using the lightbox.
Posted by Elainep on March 8, 2005, at 13:44:13
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by jrbecker on November 14, 2004, at 13:49:29
Thanks for the confirmed information on 4000iu a day being a safe dose, jrbecker, although these results indicate that 4000iu a day raises your level over time, so I'd still recommend that people get their blood levels tested before they start taking such a dose, and then tested regularly so they know what it's actually doing, rather than running blind. I must say I'm glad that Vit D is obviously being discussed so seriously and at length on this post. I personally think it must be a really common contributor to depression and mood swings, and everyone on this list would be well advised to get a blood test done. I can't repeat often enough how it's changed the life of my daughter. She's completely back to normal now, I KNOW she'll be fine from here on in because several days after her megadose even the colour in her face changed. She suddenly looked healthy again. You could just tell by looking at her that her body was working properly again. And as Barbara and I have been discussing, even if your depression is worse in summer it may still be Vit D. Don't be fooled into looking for SAD symptoms by season, or by depression only, as my daughter's depression had rapid cycle highs and lows: it looked like cyclothymia.
Enough ranting. Thanks again for the further info jrbecker.
Elainep
Posted by mystery road on March 10, 2005, at 8:07:09
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 8, 2005, at 13:44:13
> Thanks for the confirmed information on 4000iu a day being a safe dose, jrbecker, although these results indicate that 4000iu a day raises your level over time, so I'd still recommend that people get their blood levels tested before they start taking such a dose, and then tested regularly so they know what it's actually doing, rather than running blind. I must say I'm glad that Vit D is obviously being discussed so seriously and at length on this post. I personally think it must be a really common contributor to depression and mood swings, and everyone on this list would be well advised to get a blood test done. I can't repeat often enough how it's changed the life of my daughter. She's completely back to normal now, I KNOW she'll be fine from here on in because several days after her megadose even the colour in her face changed. She suddenly looked healthy again. You could just tell by looking at her that her body was working properly again. And as Barbara and I have been discussing, even if your depression is worse in summer it may still be Vit D. Don't be fooled into looking for SAD symptoms by season, or by depression only, as my daughter's depression had rapid cycle highs and lows: it looked like cyclothymia.
>
> Enough ranting. Thanks again for the further info jrbecker.
>
> ElainepCould you please elaborate on your daughters protocol?..Especially her "mega-dose" and her daily vit D intake..What form? etc..
Thanks..
MR
Posted by TamaraJ on March 10, 2005, at 13:03:45
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by mystery road on March 10, 2005, at 8:07:09
I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
Thanks.
Tamara
Posted by Elainep on March 10, 2005, at 15:07:58
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by TamaraJ on March 10, 2005, at 13:03:45
To Tamara and MR
Here are the links I suggest you read (at the bottom of this post).
I've included (the last link) a messageboard of people who self-supplement with vit D.
My advice is to get your blood tested. It's an easy test, well known as it's done frequently for the elderly.
My problem with self dosing is, although I don't think you need to worry short term about the effects, if you do something like take 4000iu/day for 5 years you might end up with a problem, if it continually increases your blood level over time. Vit d is an important thing to have daily in your body and the only way to tell how you're doing is to get tested. So I would really encourage you to get tested: it's not an expensive or difficult test, just may require some pushing on your part on your doctor (who may be resistant through ignorance).
A megadose is the only way to get immediate results and you need a doctor's prescription for that, unless you want to down bottles of pills at once. Plus you need to check out your calcium and phosphorus levels. I know it would be easier to 'fix' yourself, but by taking a supplement yourself you know nothing about where you're starting from, how long before your levels are normal, and it may get mixed up among everything else you're doing as to whether it has an effect or not.
What level is safe? There is so much argument/discussion about that. Maybe it depends on your body size/metabolism rate. That looks to be the case in my family. I don't like flying blind when there's no need to. I suspect my daughters and I may end up on an amount greater than 1000iu a day, but I'm looking for a maintenance dose and that's different to upping your levels in the first place. (Actually I'd like my levels to go up: if they don't go up on 1000iu I'll be asking my doctor for a megadose myself of some form after six months trial.)
Okay, enough of that. You're all adults out there and need to make up your own minds, but just let me say that this is KNOWN Western medicine, not some kind of pseudoscience, but the problem is western medicine only looks for it in the cases of the elderly and maybe those with unipolar depression some time in the winter (obvious SAD cases). Widen the breadth of the SAD definition and get yourself tested. It's easy and well worth it.
Elaine
http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/major_depression.htm
http://www.holistic.com/holistic/learning.nsf/0/c9ef2bd696792d7087256e2b00706973?OpenDocument
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43711-2004May20.html
http://www.nichd.nih.gov/prip/
http://www.superbherbs.com/advitamins.html
http://www.detnews.com/2003/health/0309/03/health-258921.htm
http://www.direct-ms.org/vitamind.html
http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec/product_id/11802
http://www.mercola.com/2003/jun/18/vitamin_d_cancer.htm
http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/91/101374.htm?pagenumber=1
http://sunlightandvitamind.com/
http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/23/vitamin_d_deficiency.htm
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/5324/e/1/T/CFIDS_FM/
http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-215413.html
Posted by mystery road on March 10, 2005, at 19:59:06
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 10, 2005, at 15:07:58
Elaine..
Thanks for your help..You seem so adamant about getting tested first but frankly I'm gonna try the vit D therapy no matter what..My depressive symptoms are so bad I'm willing to forgo the test just to see if there's any relief from the therapy by titrating upwards to 4000iu over a month..If I find some relief, I'll get tested..if not, I'll either change the protocol or quit the therapy..I've tried EVERYTHING over the past 10 yrs with no consistent results..This is the next missing step..I'll post my results..
MR
Posted by Elainep on March 13, 2005, at 15:57:42
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by mystery road on March 10, 2005, at 19:59:06
Sorry to sound so adamant MR! I forget that I only had to deal with the medical profession for 5 months and I wasn't depressed, my daughter was. I can't imagine what it's like to be depressed for 10 years AND probably be sick to death of ahaving dealings of any kind with the medical profession. All I know from my experience is that depression is NOT something that's imagined or some kind of mental weakness: I really believe it's biochemistry.
Actually, that last post of mine was a follow up post to another one I wrote, which never seemed to have appeared. So it was meant to be a tag-on to my main post, where I described my daughter's symptoms and how they were treated and what happened with her blood levels and my other daughter's and my own.
So I'll repeat the story now, in the hopes that it might give you and others more info to base your own decisions on.
Jo had her first episode of depression in early November 2003. She was meant to read at a writers' night (she'd recently won an award for a piece of poetry) but when she came home from school she collapsed on the bed, crying, couldn't get up, didn't want to go, was terribly upset and in a dreadful state. I'd never seen anything like it. You have to understand that Jo has always been a person to tough it out, sensitive but confident, quiet but not unassured. Her teachers called her serious but positive: she was NEVER an overanxious child and never a pessimist either. She was 17.
I put it down to teenage angst and some strong criticism she'd received about her writing a month or so before, plus the fact that she hadn't been voted in as literary leader. Disappointment?
Summer is Dec-Mar down here in New zealand.
Jo was then fine all summer, until we went to Canada in January to go skiing. 2 days after we arrived at Whistler, she couldn't get out of bed, crying, fatigued, no interest in skiing (which she'd always loved). She came right after 2 days. Then we stopped off in Hawaii on the way back to NZ and the same thing happened. Wouldn't go out, lay on the bed, crying, tired, ill.
Again she was okay after a few days. Got back to NZ and she started her final year of highschool in February. A week into it she came down in a depressive jag agin, and told me there was something wrong. I hadn't known how bad her symptoms were in Canada and Hawaii, I'd just thought she was tired.
I took her to the GP, he ran blood tests for B vits and iron. Her iron was a bit low (it had been low the year before as well: she's a vegetarian) so he put her on iron supplements and suggested counselling.
We set her up with a counsellor and I made an appt with a psychiatrist for June (there's a very long waiting list here for psychiatrists, I set it up as a step to consider once we tried everything else for the next several months).
Then started a cycling pattern of 10 or so days ok, 2-3 days down. Also, in her 'normal' periods I saw signs of hypomania. For instance, she moved all of her furniture around in her room one night at midnight (it was a school night) Another time I talked to her on the phone and she was talking too quickly (very unlike her)about what she was going to do for an english assignment: then she couldn't concentrate to do it. The whole thing looked like cyclothymia to me, and I was very worried because I have an aunt who was diagnosed bipolar so I had some worry that it ran in the family.
In the meantime I immersed myself in sites like these, because I had rapidly lost faith in the medical profession (a second opinion doctor simply told me what antidepressants he'd put Jo on) No one suggested any other blood tests, and it was hard to find a nutritionist doctor here in NZ who could tell me more. I was very frustrated (sound familiar?)and I found that these sites with people suffering the disease of depression were far more informative than anything out there in the community that I could find. Thank goodness for the internet!
From these sites I became interested in nutrition and I ordered some books off amazon.com. I'd already put Jo onto fish oil and had Dr. Stoll's book, I had a light box, and I even bought a biotuner _ a thing that supposedly corrects your brainwaves with electricity. None of these things appeared to work, although I was hopeful the fish oil might come through eventually.
It was the nutrition books that came through in the end. I read all three in the weekend before Jo was due to see the psychiatrist, leaving the oldest one for last. On Sunday night I skimmed through it, and discovered ONE paragraph that related vit D to depression. It was the first time I'd ever seen anyone make a connection, and as I fell asleep that night it came to me that this was what was wrong with Jo.
Jo has never been that much of an outdoor girl, more of a reader writer and artist: and she'd followed the sunsmart campaign they ran here to prevent skin cancer (there's a very thin ozone layer down here)rigorously. She even wore a sun hat and suncream out to get the mail. So that's how I KNEW. My GP thought I was nuts (I took Jo in for a blood test the next afternoon after spending all morning on the internet and discovering that there were a few studies on vit D and depression: with incredibly good results).
Anyway, she came back very low, a DAY before due to see the psychiatrist (I cancelled) and was given a megadose of vit d after checking for her calcium and phosphorus levels. She was perfectly fine again in about 3 days. Jo's sister then got tested because she'd been a sun avoider too and came back low. When I got the girls retested 6 months later I got myself tested too and I was slightly low as well! I came to believe that the scientists are right when they predict 30-50% of the population are deficient in vit d. Anyway, here are the results for my family and what we've done about it, for your interest.
Jo, weight: 50-55 kg. First blood test was 16 nmol/l (normal range is 50-150 nmol/l). She was given a megadose of 6 pills: it was either 150,000iu, or else 300,000 iu. I suspect the latter, I'm sorry I didn't keep records.
For everyone's interest, in Europe it is common to give a megadose of 250,000 iu to deficient people. My GP has also since told me that elderly people in resthomes are commonly given a 50,000 iu pill once a month.
After one month, Jo's blood level was tested again: this time it was 86 nmol/l. She still wasn't making any effort to see the sun, so I put her on a 400iu a day supplement. She was tested again 6 months later, blood level was down to 68 nmol/l (in January 2005) so I have since put her on to 1000iu a day, and we'll get her tested again in July.
Jo's sister, Pat, who weighs about 70-72 kg, tested initially at 22 nmol/l. After the same megadose as Jo, she came back a month later at 72 nmol/l. She didn't supplement for six months, but tried basking in the sun most mornings for 15 minutes, her levels in January 05 had dropped to 67 nmol/l. So I've put her on 1000iu/day for the next six months to see what happens as well.
I also got tested in January and came back at 48 nmol/l. My GP was shocked: he'd seen my tanned arms for himself (plus it was midsummer here!) So I am also supplementing at 1000iu a day.
I suspect that even 1000iu a day may not be enough for my daughters and I to sustain the right level of vit D. In July if I'm still low I'll ask for some kind of megadose (maybe a 50,000iu pill) from my GP to top me up. If my daughters and I are still falling, I'll up us to 2000iu a day for six months and see what that does.
MR, you see I am naturally conservative, plus I like to know exactly what's going on. I'm running my family's blood levels as a scientific experiment for 3 years or so, so by the time my daughters go overseas or live far far away they will have a good handle on what they need to do to keep their own vit d levels in the right range. I should add that since the vit D megadose, both girls iron levels are also normal now (apparently vit d aids iron absorption amongst everything else it does!)
As for my advice to you, I think you could try 4000iu a day quite quickly, I don't think you need to lead up to it. The Solgar 1000iu a day capsules are tiny, 4 of them would only be about the size of 1 fish oil capsule, so it's not a lot of oil that you're swallowing. And even when both my daughters swallowed a megadose, they had absolutely no side effects (no nausea no nothing). I guess I worry that even 4000iu a day may take quite some time to knock you back into the normal range, and so I guess you can see my scientific concerns of: say you are really low like Jo was and you start off at 16, after a few months at 4000 you may still be low so it may not be regulating your moods normally again. Also, Jo and Pat reacted quite differently to the megadose in that Jo went up nearly 70 nmol/l (68) wheras Pat only went up 50. So it's clear that body mass and other things have an effect as well.
Anyway, I've given you all the info I can from my neck of the woods. I'd just again like to suggest to people out there who don't think they have typical SAD symptoms (maybe they have cyclothymia, or depressions in the summer) that it still could be Vit D and be certain you look into it!
Oh, final words. Make sure if you supplement it's vit D3, not D2. And watch out for the vit D and A supplements, try to find a vit D only supplement.
Good luck MR, I really have my fingers crossed for you.
Elainep
Posted by mystery road on March 13, 2005, at 19:07:55
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 13, 2005, at 15:57:42
Elaine..
Thankyou so much for such an informative post..It's people like yourself that care enough to make a difference in this world..
It's really great to hear that you could find an answer to you daughters problem so quickly..As you've read in this forum, a lot of people have been suffering for years without getting anywhere permanently, myself included..I've been fighting depression for 14 yrs now and have yet to find anything that has made me feel normal, or for any length of time, happy..I've been the anti-d route numerous times with the same results..Intolerable s/e's..Just thinking about that depresses me..I own a vitamin/supplement store so as you can imagine, I've tried many different nutrients, combinations of, and some of my own research/experimentation with no long term results..I always end up in a major depression, as I am now..The Vit d theory sounds interesting as I have a skin condition (vitiligo) which doesn't allow for proper absorbtion of sunlight through the skin..In most areas, the skin burns and vit d synthesis is halted..But I am not covered with it so I am getting some conversion, of course in the summer time only..(Im on the east coast of USA)..I also as a child loved the sun as I have numerous pictures of me, browned and tanned and always playing in the sun..That carried on to my teen years as I spent many days at the beach for many years..I was not depressed then..So the vit d deficiency aspect intriques me..I'm now on my 3rd day of vit d3@3200iu/day..I'll work that up to 4000iu tomorrow and stay with that for a while..I must say I am a little bit doubtful already as I feel nothing..bad nor good!..Sometimes a bad effect at least tells us something is causing a reaction, but not yet..I also read where people had an easing of symptoms after a day or 2, but I'm still feeling very bad..I'll keep it up and hopefully this time I might feel better..I've been so frustrated and hurt by these great remedies that never work that I tend to think nothing can help me..I'm so tired of all this..
Thanks again Elaine..
MR
Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 9:07:44
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 13, 2005, at 15:57:42
Hi Elaine,
I told you I'd report back about getting the Vit D from my doc. Well, she's being conservative (why am I not surprised) and won't prescribe high doses for depression, only for 'active osteoporosis'. She also won't test me for it, saying it's expensive and my insurance won't pick it up. Sigh, and here I thought, hoped, I'd found a liberated GP a cut above the rest.So I'm going to just do it myself. Any suggestions on what brand to get and how much to supplement? You mentioned D2 only and not D3. Just curious what the difference is as applies to depression. Thanks for informing us of this important topic. How is your daughter doing these days? - Barbara
Posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » Elainep, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 9:07:44
Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
Ray
Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 11:52:17
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
That was an interesting article. I went to the Biotics website. They have a promising looking emulsified D3 product in drops. BUT you have to be a 'licenced provider' to order it. Any suggestions on where to get Biotics products elsewhere? Thanks.
> Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
>
> http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
>
> Ray
Posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 12:23:59
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 11:52:17
This site seems to supply US customers...
Ray
Posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:13:08
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
Hi Ray,
Interesting article , thanks.
Yes, it's Vit D3.
Hope your going well. Nice to "hear from you" again.
It's Easter holidays now for me, but I still have a lot to catch up on.
Jan
Posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:25:20
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 13, 2005, at 15:57:42
Thanks for posting this Elaine.
It's uplifting to hear success stories at least occassionally. I'm so pleased you found the cause.Personally spending a lot of time in the sun and living in Queensland a lot I don't think VitD is my problem..but if I lived in NZ or England or Canada, I suspect I'd need some too, especially if I didn't spend most of the time outdoors.
It would be great if everyone had PTH, VitD, and calcium/phosphorous blood tests taken FIRST before being offered antiD's by their docs wouldn't it. I could think of a few other tests as well, like iron/ferritin and thryoid(TSH, FT4)/thyroid antibodies, sigh.
Anyway thanks, I really enjoyed reading of your success.
Jan
Posted by KaraS on March 24, 2005, at 17:44:22
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 12:23:59
Hi Ray,
Good to see you posting again! Hope all is well with you.
Kara
Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 18:23:48
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » Elainep, posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:25:20
My doc changed her mind and won't give me the tests and won't prescribe the 100,000IU dose I'd been hoping for (suggested I 'take 400mg since I don't have osteoporosis - it's the RDA'. Here I was hoping I'd found an enlightened primary care doc. They don't seem to exist, do they?).
My question: Is there something magical about the 100,000 and up dosing to eradicate depression as Elaine's daughter experienced? I can imagine it as a sort of Vitamin/hormone reset button. What are thoughts about lower doses, i.e., the 4,000IU alot of practitioners are promoting? What's so special about this dosage?
I live in the rainy NorthWest and would be surprised if I'm not deficient. I have depression, fibromyalgia symptoms, bone and muscle pain. I would LOVE IT if this were a small answer to my prayers. I ordered the Biotics emulsified forte drops (thanks for the tip, Ray) at 2,000mg a drop and plan on experimenting.
Without the tests I won't go too high, but any ideas on what to look for along the way? How long to expect an improvement at less than a super high kick-start dose? Any noticeable symptoms to watch out for that could be related to too much D3? I'll find another doctor to be sure, but in the meantime I've wasted too much time to rely on their largesse if this might help me.
I've waded through the literature, but would appreciate getting opinions from this board's esteemed members. Thanks for being in my world, thou most respected and enquiring minds. - Barbara
Posted by raybakes on March 26, 2005, at 4:14:11
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:13:08
Hi Jan and Kara, haven't posted for while, been totally absorbed working on my family tree, but the vitamin D caught my attention! Hope you're both well.
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:06:43
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by TamaraJ on March 10, 2005, at 13:03:45
> I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
>
> Thanks.
>
> TamaraHere's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:08:08
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
> Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
>
> http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
>
> RayMr. Ray Bakes!
Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:11:26
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression - Questions, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 18:23:48
> My doc changed her mind and won't give me the tests and won't prescribe the 100,000IU dose I'd been hoping for (suggested I 'take 400mg since I don't have osteoporosis - it's the RDA'. Here I was hoping I'd found an enlightened primary care doc. They don't seem to exist, do they?).
>
> My question: Is there something magical about the 100,000 and up dosing to eradicate depression as Elaine's daughter experienced? I can imagine it as a sort of Vitamin/hormone reset button. What are thoughts about lower doses, i.e., the 4,000IU alot of practitioners are promoting? What's so special about this dosage?I posted a good link for the 4000 IU level. Here it is again:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
Just for the record, I found articles describing *pediatric* (consider body weight) treatments with 600,000 IU in one treatment.
It is looking like there is no absolute upper level, but that chronic excess intake can disturb calcium homeostasis.
Lar
Posted by tealady on March 26, 2005, at 17:22:12
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » TamaraJ, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:06:43
> > I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Tamara
>
> Here's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
>
> Lar
>
Hi Lar,Good to see you back posting again.
I took a quick look at that link , but I can't reach the conclusion (as you seem to?) that it's safe for everyone (or even most people) to take 100mcg VitD3a day long term.
I CAN reach the conclusion that for those living in cold climates (like near Toronto :-))
AND having below range (LOW) 25(OH)D levels to start with , maybe due to not enough exposure to sunlight..or poor absorption , anyway for some reason tending to be low in 25(OH) D and with normal levels of PTH and ionized calcium..then Yes supplementing for a year on 100mcgD3 doesn't seem to hurt.
Actually it doesn't seem to not make too much more difference than just taking 15mcg a day, at least as far as effect on ionized calcium and PTH., although there again I preferred the long term effects of 15mcg on PTH, the 100mcg long term may possibly be suppressing PTH? ..suppressing "hormoan stuff" is not usually a great thing to do long term :-)..unless you really know what your about
The 25(OH)D is increased for sure, but I'm not exactly sure what other effects that would have long term on the body.So strange that I would read that article and conclude, yes start off on a higher dose over the first winter ..say 2 or 3 months ..and then reduce long term intake to the minimal required to maintain optimim ionized calcium and PTH etc...perhaps say < 20mcg daily?
BTW My own calcium (and corrected) calcium levels are now usually about 2.50 (2.43)mmol/L or so. Do you know if there is way of converting these to ionized calcium..or is it a completely different measurement? (understand Ca++ ions)
JUst in case his post gives you the wrong impression, I am PRO vitD3 supplementation in colder climates..I'd be doing the same if I lived in one..I even took a tiny dose cod liver oil in England in summer when I was over there :-))
I just don't think this article is suggesting higher doses is safe for most..or shows that there is a benefit from a larger dose long term.
As with all supps, intake should be based on how it makes you feel, and I always go for the minimal dose to achieve this.
BTW that study also only dosed once a week (I think) ..and then divided by 7 to get the daily dose. This is making an assumption..probably correct (but unknown really) as different results are obtained in some studies with some supps by giving larger weekly doses or the "equivalent" daily doses...maybe to do with absorption etc.
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 7:47:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by tealady on March 26, 2005, at 17:22:12
> > > I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Tamara
> >
> > Here's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
> >
> > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
> >
> > Lar
> >
> Hi Lar,
>
> Good to see you back posting again.Thanks. So am I. I missed me, too.
> I took a quick look at that link , but I can't reach the conclusion (as you seem to?) that it's safe for everyone (or even most people) to take 100mcg VitD3a day long term.
If you looked at the references (hotlinked to some full-text articles, even), you'd see prior work establishing that 100 µg is indeed a physiologic (normal) dose of vitamin E.
> I CAN reach the conclusion that for those living in cold climates (like near Toronto :-))The body has an amazing capacity to store vitamin D, which is how summertime production can more or less get one through the winter. However, with sunscreen and indoor jobs and all that, summertime production is severely limited. Even air conditioning should be considered, as an independent variable. It keeps people indoors.
There's a key quotation in this article: "Future studies of vitamin D supplementation should take into account that it may take a year to reach stable 25(OH)D levels. Although previous work (including our own) has implied that plateau levels of 25(OH)D can occur within five months [5,37], the impression of a plateau reflects the time pattern of sampling; i.e. samples taken at short time intervals can give a false impression of a plateau."
> AND having below range (LOW) 25(OH)D levels to start with , maybe due to not enough exposure to sunlight..or poor absorption , anyway for some reason tending to be low in 25(OH) D and with normal levels of PTH and ionized calcium..then Yes supplementing for a year on 100mcgD3 doesn't seem to hurt.
Just as with thyroid hormones, I would argue that what has been taken to be "normal" PTH is subject to question.
> Actually it doesn't seem to not make too much more difference than just taking 15mcg a day, at least as far as effect on ionized calcium and PTH., although there again I preferred the long term effects of 15mcg on PTH, the 100mcg long term may possibly be suppressing PTH? ..suppressing "hormoan stuff" is not usually a great thing to do long term :-)..unless you really know what your about
Considering that these guys are endocrinologists, I might hazard a guess that they've done their homework. There is a lot of excellent data available through the hotlinks in the references. Check reference 7.
> The 25(OH)D is increased for sure, but I'm not exactly sure what other effects that would have long term on the body.
25(OH)D is also a neuromodulator. It directly affects mood. There are vitamin D receptors, and enzymes dedicated to receive it, in the brain.
> So strange that I would read that article and conclude, yes start off on a higher dose over the first winter ..say 2 or 3 months ..and then reduce long term intake to the minimal required to maintain optimim ionized calcium and PTH etc...perhaps say < 20mcg daily?Certainly, it does require some individual consideration of other sources, but again, from the linked references, you can find evidence that the daily vitamin D flux is at (or above) 100 µg/day. There are blessed few dietary sources of vitamin D. Vitamin D was only recognized as a vitamin when people took a look at how cod liver oil helped treat rickets. We weren't yet sophisticated enough to recognize that it wasn't a vitamin, but rather a hormone, but in any case, exogenous sources of vitamin D are really quite rare. When's the last time you caught a cod and selected its liver from the entrails?
> BTW My own calcium (and corrected) calcium levels are now usually about 2.50 (2.43)mmol/L or so. Do you know if there is way of converting these to ionized calcium..or is it a completely different measurement? (understand Ca++ ions)That, I don't know (the conversion). The normal is 4.4-5.3 mg/dL, for ionized (free) calcium.
> JUst in case his post gives you the wrong impression, I am PRO vitD3 supplementation in colder climates..I'd be doing the same if I lived in one..I even took a tiny dose cod liver oil in England in summer when I was over there :-))
How much sun do you get?
> I just don't think this article is suggesting higher doses is safe for most..or shows that there is a benefit from a larger dose long term.There is some room for interpretation, but the current RDA/DRI levels are ridiculously low. Persons with mood disorders, which keep them largely indoors (like myself), ought to be taking substantial vitamin D supps, IMHO. Long-term supplementation with 100 µg (4000 IU)/day did not result in a single instance of adverse effects, despite their being no restrictions placed on the subjects with respect to potential alternate sources of this nutrient.
> As with all supps, intake should be based on how it makes you feel, and I always go for the minimal dose to achieve this.That's fair. Wellbeing measures were higher in the high-dose group.
> BTW that study also only dosed once a week (I think) ..and then divided by 7 to get the daily dose. This is making an assumption..probably correct (but unknown really) as different results are obtained in some studies with some supps by giving larger weekly doses or the "equivalent" daily doses...maybe to do with absorption etc.
>
> JanI appreciate your questioning of the underlying assumptions in this study. Yes, a once-a-week dosing paradigm might lead to different outcomes than a daily dose providing the same net amount. However, that is exactly the assumption made in determinations of all nutrient intakes; average weekly intake, divided by seven.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on March 28, 2005, at 5:47:11
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:08:08
> > Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
> >
> > http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
> >
> > Ray
>
> Mr. Ray Bakes!
>
> Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
>
> Lar
>
>Thanks Lar! I've been totally absorbed with my family tree since christmas. Still doing really well with all my methyl factors/donors and combining it with a liver glandular from allergy research, seems to heighten the positive effect. Do you think there would be much vitamin D in a beef liver glandular?
Ray
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