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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 12:24:36
Sorry DSCH I was saying something different, and not very important. I was just saying that even if the sense of having a self doesn't indicate there is something like the self, we have to use words like "I" and "You" because they're useful.
I'm beginning to think triptophan is not for me. It makes some of my ADHD syntoms worse and makes me more argumentative. Now it's out and I can feel it's out.
Can you help me in make the picture clearer ?
My syntomps (without any meds) are:
Careless about the future.
Tendency to procrastinate.
No anxiety.
No depression.
Problems in concentrating in reading, watching a movie, and so on
Problems in concentrating gets worse when I try to concentrate
Daydreaming most part of the day
Dyslexic sometimes (anyway I'm not sure "dyslexic" is the right term)
Easily bored (expecially when I'm alone)
Shy
I interrupt people when they talk to say stupid (sometimes funny) things
Egocentric
Not agitated
Problems with motivation
Big problems with organization
Problems with autorithy and following rules
Problems with following also the rules I give to myself
Incostant in relationships
"I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow and I don't know now what I'll do after this posting"
...In your opinion could all this indicate some other kind of ADHD (Amen types) other than inhattentive ?
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 19:32:48
In reply to which adhd ? » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32
> Can you help me in make the picture clearer ?
I'll try.
> My syntomps (without any meds) are:
>
> Careless about the future.
> Tendency to procrastinate.Generally common to all types.
> No anxiety.
> No depression.OK, this rules out limbic ADD.
> Problems in concentrating in reading, watching a movie, and so on
> Problems in concentrating gets worse when I try to concentrate
> Daydreaming most part of the dayAgain, generally common. Daydreaming would tend to point towards inattentive-type, while activities involving physical movement more classic ADHD.
> Dyslexic sometimes (anyway I'm not sure "dyslexic" is the right term)
Trouble intrepreting letters, numbers, writing mistakes/transpositions, spelling? Temporal lobe?
> Easily bored (expecially when I'm alone)Common to multiple types. Could be a sign that you are naturally extrovert.
> Shy
Maybe inattentive. Maybe not even necessarily morbid though. ;-) Perhaps a sign of mild social anxiety (yes you can be an extrovert and have this too! it just makes life that much more difficult) ;-)
> I interrupt people when they talk to say stupid (sometimes funny) things
Classic ADHD mostly. But this is something in Tourette's I believe too. Temporal lobe?
> Egocentric
Normal. LOL :-D
> Not agitated
Inattentive type.
> Problems with motivation
> Big problems with organizationCommon to all basically.
> Problems with autorithy and following rules
> Problems with following also the rules I give to myselfSomewhat more interesting and characteristic I think. Some of that oppositional-defiant going on maybe. Once again, Touretters can have this too. Temporal lobe?
> Incostant in relationships
> "I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow and I don't know now what I'll do after this posting"Common to all types.
OK... based on this what do I think?
I think we can safely elminate limbic ADD.
The oppositional behavior, blurted witicisms are not common to straight inattentive type ADD. I think we can set that aside too.
You are not restless or agitated though and tend towards daydreaming so I will set aside classic ADHD.
OK, we are left with:
Overfocus ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub3.html
(OCD + ADD)We've been here already though. Why did Anafranil, which was a godsend for your study habits and writing (your Anfranil posts remain by far the superior in terms of your writing to the Board... but maybe not when it comes to actually *communicating*!), make so many over things worse? Amen prefers Effexor, but that's basically a cleaner version of Anafranil's psychopharmacological profile (no receptor anatagonisms). I think we should concentrate on the remaining two then.
Temporal lobe ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub5.html
(aggression, paranoia, atypical pains, vision/reading problems + ADD)Ring-of-fire ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub6.html
(resembles bipolar disorder in certain respects, takes elements from overfocus and temporal lobe ADD)Anti-convulsants are what Amen usually resorts to for TL-ADD and RoF-ADD.
Serotonergic meds (and by extension probably tryptophan as well) tend to make temporal lobe problems worse, but help the cingulate problems. This might be the explanation for your mixed responses to Anafranil, SSRIs, and tryptophan.
Here are temporal lobe supplements according to Amen:
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/supplements/default.aspGABA (but does this cross the BBB?)
Phosphatidylserine (or boost B12, folic acid, essential fatty acids, and the other phosphatidyls (i.e fish oil and lecithin))
Gingko
Vitamin E
Ibuprofen (anti-inflammatory)I would say niacin/niacinamide (which your multi lacks IIRC) would be a good addition to the list. Picamilon (Niacin bonded to GABA) might even be ideal.
I think we have an explanation for why gingko and omega-3 have been better for you than the others so far.
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
In reply to which adhd ? » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32
I didn't properly cap the last post off.
Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
The oppositional-type stuff, the physical "oddities" (pains), and their becoming worse on tryptophan (and anafranil too?) point towards the temporal lobes.
Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.
Amen, in his book "Healing ADD", tells of a juvenile patient with RoF-ADD who benefited greatly from a combination of GABA, omega-3, and SJW.
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:02:37
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
Temporal lobe ADD causes symptoms of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity, plus mood instability, aggression, mild paranoia, anxiety with little provocation, atypical headaches or abdominal pain, visual or auditory illusions, and learning problems (especially reading and auditory processing).
OK. What follows is me without any meds or supplements:
Inattention yes
Hyperactivity no
Impulsivity yesMood instability yes
Aggression no
Mild paranoia no
Anxiety with little provocation noAtypical headaches or abdominal pain NO
(this is important, since the above syntomps seem to depend on what you mean with every single term)Visually or auditory illusions NO
(idem)Learning problem yes
I'll try to do the same for all the other subtypes. Thank you for coaching ;-)
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:10:45
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
periods of panic or fear for no specific reason,
NO
periods of spaciness or confusion,
dark thoughts (such as suicidal or homicidal thoughts),
NO
significant social withdrawal
NO
frequent periods of deja vu
NO
irritability
yes/no
rages
yes/no
(not significant without meds)and visual changes (such as frequently seeing shadows out of the corner of the eye).
no
***
with anafranil (I refer to it only because I have took it for years and then it's easier)
i have a big YES in:Dark thoughts
Significant social withdrawal
Irritability
Deja vu !
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:22:07
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
excessive daydreaming
yes
frequent complaints of being bored
yes
appearing apathetic or unmotivated
yes
appearing frequently sluggish
yes/no
or slow moving
yes/no
internally preoccupied
yes/no
(yes/no=sometimes yes, sometimes no)
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:26:17
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
hyperactivity
maybe
restlessness
maybe
impulsivity
yes
(maybe=I'm not sure about what is meant ... let's say: yes/no)
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:32:10
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
stuck on thoughts: no (yes on anafranil)stuck on beahaviour: no (yes on anafranil)
obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviours: no
(yes/no on anafranil, more no than yes)get stuck on saying no, no way, never, you can't make me do it
yes/no (big yes on anafranil)
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:47:28
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
The Ring of Fire is a name given to describe the condition of a person who has at least three of the ADD subtypes.
: o cool ! ;-)
may be oppositional or aggressive
oppositional yes/no (depends on situation ...)
aggressive yes/no (depends on definition ...)
is often very hyper or hyperverbal
very hyper no, hyperverbal yes ===> YES
is easily distracted or has too many thoughts.
Sometimes the first and the other times the second
===> YESHe/she may experience moodiness
YES
cyclic behavioral changes
yes/no (don't know how cyclic they are)
or hypersensitivity to light, sound, taste or touch.
NO
>>> Usually the over-active Cingulate and Temporal Lobe, and one or two of the Limbic or pre-frontal types are involved.
Which are the pre-frontal types ?
I think inattentive is a big yes for me. Is it compatible with RoF ?
(Ring of fire is a very cool name ! Anyway, I ordered some Amen's book so, I'll have something to do in the next weeks ;-)
Posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 13:15:29
In reply to ring of fire : ) , posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:47:28
> The Ring of Fire is a name given to describe the condition of a person who has at least three of the ADD subtypes.
>
> : o cool ! ;-)
>
> may be oppositional or aggressive
>
> oppositional yes/no (depends on situation ...)
>
> aggressive yes/no (depends on definition ...)
>
> is often very hyper or hyperverbal
>
> very hyper no, hyperverbal yes ===> YES
>
> is easily distracted or has too many thoughts.
>
> Sometimes the first and the other times the second
> ===> YES
>
> He/she may experience moodiness
>
> YES
>
> cyclic behavioral changes
>
> yes/no (don't know how cyclic they are)
>
> or hypersensitivity to light, sound, taste or touch.
>
> NO
>
> >>> Usually the over-active Cingulate and Temporal Lobe, and one or two of the Limbic or pre-frontal types are involved.
>
> Which are the pre-frontal types ?Classic ADHD and Inattentive-type ADD. Basically, the pre-frontal cortex is a problem whenever trying to concentrate only makes the ability to concentrate worse.
> I think inattentive is a big yes for me. Is it compatible with RoF ?
Yes, I think so.
> (Ring of fire is a very cool name ! Anyway, I ordered some Amen's book so, I'll have something to do in the next weeks ;-)
In the meantime you can take questionaires on his websites and maybe even join the forum he has over there.
Maybe you could ask around with your university contacts and see if any university clinic in Italy has SPECT, fMRI, or PET. Perhaps some researcher might be interested in seeing your mixed responses (scan non-medicated, scan on-Anafranil, etc.).
Posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 13:30:58
In reply to ring of fire : ) , posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:47:28
Let me again recommend that you join this board as well...
http://www.amenclinic.com/treenic/default.asp
You might get a response from a physician assistant (PA) of Dr. Amen's, Angela, who is a co-moderator of their boards. Like this one...
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 13:43:37
In reply to Re: ring of fire : ) » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 13:30:58
Thanks for all the info. I didn't know about the forums on Ameclinic.com. I'll let you know what happens. Bye !
Posted by DSCH on November 24, 2003, at 0:35:08
In reply to So far so good... it's smoother acting I think :-) (nm), posted by DSCH on October 30, 2003, at 17:49:57
Just thought the TMG-following folks should know that I am definately having a decline in my mood and energy and motivation which doesn't manifest as a fog, clutter, or dirtiness in my faculties (which is what I sense as my number one indicator of things going well or not). I have had some trouble keeping to a regular eating/supplement and sleep schedule of late, so I think some inadequacy in the regimen is getting amplified as the regimen is disrupted.
I might try adding tyrosine back in the morning and 5-HTP at night.
Ideas?
Posted by tealady on November 24, 2003, at 5:48:58
In reply to Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on November 24, 2003, at 0:35:08
The decline wouldn't have started when you upped the selenium?
Jan
Posted by JLx on November 24, 2003, at 8:30:09
In reply to Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on November 24, 2003, at 0:35:08
> Just thought the TMG-following folks should know that I am definately having a decline in my mood and energy and motivation which doesn't manifest as a fog, clutter, or dirtiness in my faculties (which is what I sense as my number one indicator of things going well or not). I have had some trouble keeping to a regular eating/supplement and sleep schedule of late, so I think some inadequacy in the regimen is getting amplified as the regimen is disrupted.
>
> I might try adding tyrosine back in the morning and 5-HTP at night.
>
> Ideas?I already popped off with some ideas here, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031122/msgs/282451.html. The downswing coincided with the layoff, right? Which is stressful presumably, so reading Larry's comment again,
"Stress blocks the normal recycling of homocysteine to methionine. Homocysteine accumulates while SAMe is depleted. You could take SAMe, but that doesn't fix the homocysteine problem. In fact, it makes it worse. Betaine induces an enzyme (the concentration of the enzyme increases if betaine is detected) called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase. So, that will recycle homocysteine."
I wonder if it would be helpful to take more TMG?Or other anti-homocysteine factors?
In general, do you know what seems to work for you for stress? I always take more magnesium, for instance, and take a look at what else I may be getting too much of (for me, calcium is a culprit).
But also it sounds like a good idea to try tyrosine and/or 5-HTP again. I took 1000 mg of tyrosine yesterday and less TMG and felt better.
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:36:53
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 24, 2003, at 8:30:09
I've also been naughty and drinking quite a bit of margarita mix recently. I'm sure that wasn't helping me out at all. Anyway, it's gone now and I can't afford to buy more of it! :-)
Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
Posted by JLx on November 26, 2003, at 18:23:16
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:36:53
> Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
I've been taking gingko for about 2 months now. I don't notice any difference but perhaps it's part of the "I feel better" package in some way. I've also been taking methylcobalamin for about 6 weeks too.
Are you still taking TMG -- more, or less than before?
Posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 20:56:41
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » DSCH, posted by tealady on November 24, 2003, at 5:48:58
> The decline wouldn't have started when you upped the selenium?
> JanNo... I didn't raise the multi (my Se source) to tid at that time.
Posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:26:33
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 26, 2003, at 18:23:16
> > Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
>
> I've been taking gingko for about 2 months now. I don't notice any difference but perhaps it's part of the "I feel better" package in some way. I've also been taking methylcobalamin for about 6 weeks too.
>
> Are you still taking TMG -- more, or less than before?It's been varying somewhat from day-to-day as I have not been eating to a very regular schedule (yes, I know, bad). 4000-6000 mg/day. My head is rather clear. I've felt carb cravings, especially in the evenings.
As my patience is limited at this point, I am going to "throw the kitchen sink" at myself and see where I stand a month from now. I'm going to sit down and write up a regimen based on my readings and try as much as possible to stick to it. Economy and fine tuning can come later.
Hopefully I will have job next week and some money coming in again.
Posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 7:49:05
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:26:33
> > > Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
> >
> > I've been taking gingko for about 2 months now. I don't notice any difference but perhaps it's part of the "I feel better" package in some way. I've also been taking methylcobalamin for about 6 weeks too.
> >
> > Are you still taking TMG -- more, or less than before?
>
> It's been varying somewhat from day-to-day as I have not been eating to a very regular schedule (yes, I know, bad). 4000-6000 mg/day. My head is rather clear. I've felt carb cravings, especially in the evenings.I have too! But thought it was just me.
> As my patience is limited at this point, I am going to "throw the kitchen sink" at myself and see where I stand a month from now. I'm going to sit down and write up a regimen based on my readings and try as much as possible to stick to it. Economy and fine tuning can come later.
> Hopefully I will have job next week and some money coming in again.Sounds like a plan. :)
Posted by Francesco on November 30, 2003, at 18:17:23
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
I'm reading Healing the Brain of our friend, Dr. Amen. Now that I know a little more I can say that your deductions seem to me completely right.
> Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
That's how I felt on Anafranil (overfocus into dreamland).
> Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
That's what is likely to happen. I'm not that 'temporal' without meds but they 'appear' when I take serotoninergic. Is it possibile that serotoninergic create it ? I don't think so. What do you think about it ?
> If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.What is meant by Omega-3 ? epa/dha or something else ?
A serotoninergic + GABA (or an anticonvulsivant) seems be a good first step. But would this fix also my prefrontal cortex problems ? (I mean procratination and all the other noradrenergic issue) ... If it ain't so should I also add some stimulant med or suplement ?
Anyway it seems that I'm a step from 'truth' about my problems with your very careful and kind help. Sorry for this 'sleepy' post but I had to take a benzo this evening because the worsening of my temporal issue on triptophan made it necessary : / Hope to substitute benzo with something more appropriate as far as possibile.
I'll keep you informed, let me know how is going on with you.
Posted by Francesco on November 30, 2003, at 18:17:25
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
I'm reading Healing the Brain of our friend, Dr. Amen. Now that I know a little more I can say that your deductions seem to me completely right.
> Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
That's how I felt on Anafranil (overfocus into dreamland).
> Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
That's what is likely to happen. I'm not that 'temporal' without meds but they 'appear' when I take serotoninergic. Is it possibile that serotoninergic create it ? I don't think so. What do you think about it ?
> If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.What is meant by Omega-3 ? epa/dha or something else ?
A serotoninergic + GABA (or an anticonvulsivant) seems be a good first step. But would this fix also my prefrontal cortex problems ? (I mean procratination and all the other noradrenergic issue) ... If it ain't so should I also add some stimulant med or suplement ?
Anyway it seems that I'm a step from 'truth' about my problems with your very careful and kind help. Sorry for this 'sleepy' post but I had to take a benzo this evening because the worsening of my temporal issue on triptophan made it necessary : / Hope to substitute benzo with something more appropriate as far as possibile.
I'll keep you informed, let me know how is going on with you.
Posted by DSCH on December 4, 2003, at 21:57:57
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline, posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 7:49:05
Looks like I will be bringing either DLPA or tyrosine back. I have fallen away from my low carb diet and I feel something like where I was back in July coming back on me. Time to go back to restricting that again.
Posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 4:14:18
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on December 4, 2003, at 21:57:57
> Looks like I will be bringing either DLPA or tyrosine back. I have fallen away from my low carb diet and I feel something like where I was back in July coming back on me. Time to go back to restricting that again.
Pardon me whilst I think and conjecture out loud.
What symptoms are remaining that TMG, Mg, multivitamins, phosphatidyls, grape seed extract, gingko, and omega-3 FAs have not covered?
Carbohydrate senstivity. Reduced ability to handle stress. Non-refreshing sleep. Depressed mood (thus increasing temptation of carbohydrates). The first three are somewhat charactersitic of impaired adrenal function. I think back to the improvement I saw while I was drinking lots of licorice root tea with regards to waking up, 4-6 AM, and feeling ready to rise and get busy. The picture is complicated by my use of pemoline during the beginning of this period. But it didn't START with pemoline, but only after I started on B-vitamins and DLPA. And that's when I "uncovered" sensitivity to carbohydrates! Curious. I think the carb senstivity went away to an extent with the licorice.
It's a bit shaky, but I think I have something of a "lead" here.
Posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 5:58:33
In reply to HPA Axis redux, posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 4:14:18
Here's what I've come up with today. Comments welcome. (Note... doses on the high side, I am a bigger fellow... 6'2"/240#)
I think I am in the methylation maintenance zone now (I no longer notice much dose dependancy at all with TMG), and am back to needing assistance with the catecholamines (hence the tyrosine and 5-HTP) and cortisol (hence the licorice tea).
Before Breakfast
1 x 1 mg methylcobalamin
2 x 1000mg L-tyrosine
1 x large mug of licorice root tea (3 Tsp. root)With Breakfast
1 x Solaray
1 x 1000mg trimethylglycine
1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
2 x fish oil capsules (180 mg EPA, 120 mg DHA, 23 mg GLA)Before Lunch
2 x 1000mg L-tyrosine
With Lunch
1 x Solaray
1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
2 x Fish Oil capsulesWith Dinner
1 x Solaray
1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
2 x Fish Oil capsules
3 x 100 mg 5-HTPBefore Bedtime
3 x 1300 mg magnesium malate (200 mg Mg)
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