![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 652 to 676 of 795. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 13, 2014, at 11:57:22
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsi -Pil discussion-ancient hatred, posted by Lou Pilder on August 13, 2014, at 9:39:55
> > > > you refuse to honor my requests to you to act on my outstanding notifications to you
> > >
> > > > It is not fair because you say that you will act on notifications except for some f mine. That could lead a subset of readers to think that your policy is not fair, for I am treated unequally and denied the protection of your rules.
> > >
> > > Let me rephrase that. I am happy to consider your notifications, one at a time in this thread. Would you like to choose one for me to consider next?
> > >
> > > > fairness in those readers minds could mean equality in the protection offered by your enforcement policy of your rules.
> > >
> > > 1. True, it could. I believe you receive equal protection. (Some posters may believe you receive extra protection, but reasonable people can disagree.)
> > >
> > > 2. Fairness in the minds of other readers could mean equality in appealing to the rules.
> > >
> > > > selective enforcement ... could be deemed discrimination
> > >
> > > True, it could. And it could be deemed the use of judgment.
> > >
> > > > Your claim that you see the balm of support here can be considered by a subset of readers as what is known as a self-serving testimonial that educated readers could see as a transparent attempt to blow your own horn and pat yourself on the back.
> > >
> > > True, it could.
> > >
> > > > The fruits of your use of treating me differently by leaving those notifications of mine outstanding, will be used to judge you as to if or if not this site has a balm of support for the Golden Rule and fairness. For by your fruits shall men know you.
> > >
> > > The fruits I see here are that you are here, and I am here, and we disagree on many things, but we are able to have a civil discussion. By these fruits let others know us.
> > >
> > > > > I don't sanction all vulgar words, either.
> > > >
> > > > A subset of readers could think that is not true. They could have a rational basis to think that because of what is visible in that they could not see any vulgar words being allowed to stand because I do not see any vulgar words being allowed to stand by you.
> > >
> > > How interesting. I see clear vulgarity and you do not. In a way, it is the opposite of how you see clear anti-Semitism and I do not.
> > >
> > > > I would like for you to justify your posting of this by posting here the URL of the posts that have vulgar words un sanctioned.
> > >
> > > I decline. Those posters could feel like I'm throwing a stone at them.
> > >
> > > > I have asked for you to post here what was revised in your FAQ and there is no reply from you.
> > >
> > > Sorry, did I say the FAQ was revised?
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Mr. Hsiung,
> > A subset of readers could think that you are using evasion tactics here. They could have a rational basis to think that on the grounds that you make up another question for yourself, that is not the question directed to you, and then answer the made-up question which a subset of readers could think that you satisfied the original question to you. There are readers that see right through that tactic, such as myself. In the case at hand here, you write,[...I see clear *vulgarity* and you do not...].
> > Your reply to me was a response to that I wrote that you sanction vulgar *words* and I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to stand by you. There could be a few due to human error or negligence by you, but the policy shows that you sanction vulgar words here. I asked for you to post a URL of one that stands unsanctioned by you.
> > The question directed to you by me concerns vulgar {words} that I would like for you to prove are left unsanctioned by you posting a URL of one, for I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to stand. Your answer concerns {vulgarity}, which is not the same as vulgar words. And you write,[... I see clear vulgarity and you do not...]. I do not think that my question is answered by you, for you answered a question that I did not ask to you, (which could be something like is there vulgarity seen in the same manner as years of outstanding notifications from me concerning anti-Semitism and defamation toward me, which I did not ask you) which a subset of readers that understand evasion tactics could see. The Plain Truth is that a subset of readers could think that my question is evaded and could lead to another set of readers to think that what you have written to me is a pretext to falsely justify the allowing of anti-Semitic statements and defamatory statements against me as being justified by you on the basis that your selective enforcement, which could be deemed discrimination that is an abuse of power, is also used by you in relation to your rule to not post vulgar words. This could be determined by you posting a URL of one that you allowed, which you say you will not do because the poster would think that you are throwing a stone at them. But your rule is that support takes precedence and to be civil at all times. And your TOS states that you do enforce your rules so those that receive a sanction have it known to them to follow the rules, and could not think that you are throwing a stone at them. By you writing, [...I don't sanction all vulgar words, either...] does not IMHO justify you refusing to delete or sanction anti-Semitic statements and defamatory statements against me here at my request. For even if there are some vulgar words missed by you, the harm that could come to me from anti-Semitism and defamation is not negated by you allowing some vulgar words to pass your scrutiny or even for you to allow them deliberately.
> > The case at hand involves your allowing to be seen as civil where it is originally posted, the anti-Semitic statement:
> > [...No non-Christian will enter heaven...]
> > The statement is analogous to:
> > [..No Jew will enter heaven...]
> > and worse:
> > [...Only Christians will enter heaven...].
> > As long as you continue to attempt to justify leaving the anti-Semitic statement as to be seen as civil where it is originally posted by not posting your tag line to it to please be civil, a subset of readers could think that could be a contributing factor in the creation and development of antisemitic hate being allowed to be fostered from this site. They could have a rational basis to think that on the grounds that you state that if a statement is not sanctioned by you, it is not against your rules and will be good for this community as a whole in your thinking and supportive. Your use of supportive in your TOS also connects The Golden Rule with it. To allow a statement that could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being insulted, is IMHO a perversion of the rule and an insult to humanity itself.
> > Lou Pilder
> >
> Mr. Hsiung,
> You wrote,[...choose one for me to consider...] (anti-Semitic or defamatory statements left outstanding)
> Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
> The poster writes,
> [...Convert...save yourself...]
> Let us first look at this post that is allowed to be seen as civil and supportive and will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking. After a look at the post, then I will post more concerning your invitation to me that you will consider what to do with this post. I am asking that you post a tag line like other posts here that lead a person to feel that their faith is being put down. If not, It is my contention that by you leaving unsanctioned antsemitism to be seen a civil here, that could stoke the furnace of hatred toward the Jews to come from this site.
> Lou Pilder
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
> And let us keep in mind that the rule here is to not post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
> Lou Pilder
>
Friends,
Now let us look at the ancient hatred toward the Jews as played out in 1492. Notice that Jews could escape expulsion if they converted.
Lou
To see this, pull up Google and type in:
[ Sephardicstudies.org/decree ]
You will see [ The Edict of expulsion ] as first
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2014, at 0:12:59
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 12, 2014, at 20:04:25
> Interaction with a clinically licensed professional acting as moderator is not part of the service on facebook.
True, and some people might prefer Babble for that reason.
> My question asks if you consider yourself an exempt service provider under CDA definitions?
I'm not familiar enough with the CDA to have an opinion. Are you?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2014, at 0:40:53
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsi -Pil discuss-expulsion edict, posted by Lou Pilder on August 13, 2014, at 11:57:22
> I would like for you to post your explanation of what the revisions are that you have made.
I can see value in that, and have considered it, but unfortunately haven't had the time.
--
> The question directed to you by me concerns vulgar {words} that I would like for you to prove are left unsanctioned by you posting a URL of one, for I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to stand. Your answer concerns {vulgarity}, which is not the same as vulgar words.
True, let me rephrase that:
> > How interesting. I see clearly vulgar words and you do not. In a way, it is the opposite of how you see clear anti-Semitism and I do not.
--
> Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
> The poster writes,
> [...Convert...save yourself...]
> Let us first look at this post that is allowed to be seen as civil and supportive and will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking. After a look at the post, then I will post more concerning your invitation to me that you will consider what to do with this post. I am asking that you post a tag line like other posts here that lead a person to feel that their faith is being put down. If not, It is my contention that by you leaving unsanctioned antsemitism to be seen a civil here, that could stoke the furnace of hatred toward the Jews to come from this site.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
> And let us keep in mind that the rule here is to not post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.We discussed this before:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
How about a new one?
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 14, 2014, at 5:50:43
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2014, at 0:40:53
> > I would like for you to post your explanation of what the revisions are that you have made.
>
> I can see value in that, and have considered it, but unfortunately haven't had the time.
>
> --
>
> > The question directed to you by me concerns vulgar {words} that I would like for you to prove are left unsanctioned by you posting a URL of one, for I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to stand. Your answer concerns {vulgarity}, which is not the same as vulgar words.
>
> True, let me rephrase that:
>
> > > How interesting. I see clearly vulgar words and you do not. In a way, it is the opposite of how you see clear anti-Semitism and I do not.
>
> --
>
> > Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
> > The poster writes,
> > [...Convert...save yourself...]
> > Let us first look at this post that is allowed to be seen as civil and supportive and will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking. After a look at the post, then I will post more concerning your invitation to me that you will consider what to do with this post. I am asking that you post a tag line like other posts here that lead a person to feel that their faith is being put down. If not, It is my contention that by you leaving unsanctioned antsemitism to be seen a civil here, that could stoke the furnace of hatred toward the Jews to come from this site.
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
> > And let us keep in mind that the rule here is to not post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
>
> We discussed this before:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
>
> How about a new one?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
Our discussion before was not complete and now some of our previous discussion needs to be resumed by me. This is because there is not a one-person issue here now since a new poster has joined this discussion and the fact that you are leaving statements that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings and statements that defame me unsanctioned where they are originally posted that can cause harm to me and Jews throughout the world. Then there is the fact that a subset of readers could think that you are using evasion tactics such as just to not answer about what revisions you have made to your FAQ/TOS. You say that you do not have the time to answer. I would think that you do have an obligation to at least list the section of your FAQ that you revised.
But it is much more than that. For I do not think that to allow statements that are anti-Semitic or that defame me to be seen as civil by you where they are originally posted, to be justified by the reasons that you have posted here. And the fact that you could be secretly changing your rules, in that readers have no disclosure as to what your changes have been and why, opens up the aspect of a subset of readers thinking that there could be deceit having the possibility of challenging the health of this community and could lead to the deaths of readers. This is one reason that I need to open up some of these previous posts because of that you are making changes without those changes being disclosed to readers.
Here is one important post that I think readers could use in making their own determination concerning these issues.
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1065831.html
Posted by Bryte on August 14, 2014, at 21:48:17
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 14, 2014, at 0:12:59
> > Interaction with a clinically licensed professional acting as moderator is not part of the service on facebook.
>
> True, and some people might prefer Babble for that reason.
>If guests were attracted to a group because of promises implicit in the presence of a clinical licensed professional and the relationship proved to be a nuisance because the clinically licensed professional deploys untested techniques that damage the mental tranquility of invitees known to already be at risk, would that comprise an attractive nuisance?
> I'm not familiar enough with the CDA to have an opinion. Are you?
>The only useful question about my opinion would be whether somebody thinks I know enough for my opinion to be useful to anybody.
Do you know enough about your activities here to know whether you need any liability coverage to protect your assets against claims of harm that might arise from your activities?
If someone were harmed, would you want to make them or their surviving family whole? Do you believe no harm could result, or that you could in no way be liable from harm that results from your activities here?
Do you have an opinion about your liabilities here beyond presuming you are exempt from liabilities typically associated with a doctor/patient relationship?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 15, 2014, at 7:06:37
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-eavhey » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 14, 2014, at 5:50:43
> > > I would like for you to post your explanation of what the revisions are that you have made.
> >
> > I can see value in that, and have considered it, but unfortunately haven't had the time.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > The question directed to you by me concerns vulgar {words} that I would like for you to prove are left unsanctioned by you posting a URL of one, for I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to stand. Your answer concerns {vulgarity}, which is not the same as vulgar words.
> >
> > True, let me rephrase that:
> >
> > > > How interesting. I see clearly vulgar words and you do not. In a way, it is the opposite of how you see clear anti-Semitism and I do not.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
> > > The poster writes,
> > > [...Convert...save yourself...]
> > > Let us first look at this post that is allowed to be seen as civil and supportive and will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking. After a look at the post, then I will post more concerning your invitation to me that you will consider what to do with this post. I am asking that you post a tag line like other posts here that lead a person to feel that their faith is being put down. If not, It is my contention that by you leaving unsanctioned antsemitism to be seen a civil here, that could stoke the furnace of hatred toward the Jews to come from this site.
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
> > > And let us keep in mind that the rule here is to not post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
> >
> > We discussed this before:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
> >
> > How about a new one?
> >
> > Bob
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
> Our discussion before was not complete and now some of our previous discussion needs to be resumed by me. This is because there is not a one-person issue here now since a new poster has joined this discussion and the fact that you are leaving statements that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings and statements that defame me unsanctioned where they are originally posted that can cause harm to me and Jews throughout the world. Then there is the fact that a subset of readers could think that you are using evasion tactics such as just to not answer about what revisions you have made to your FAQ/TOS. You say that you do not have the time to answer. I would think that you do have an obligation to at least list the section of your FAQ that you revised.
> But it is much more than that. For I do not think that to allow statements that are anti-Semitic or that defame me to be seen as civil by you where they are originally posted, to be justified by the reasons that you have posted here. And the fact that you could be secretly changing your rules, in that readers have no disclosure as to what your changes have been and why, opens up the aspect of a subset of readers thinking that there could be deceit having the possibility of challenging the health of this community and could lead to the deaths of readers. This is one reason that I need to open up some of these previous posts because of that you are making changes without those changes being disclosed to readers.
> Here is one important post that I think readers could use in making their own determination concerning these issues.
> Lou Pilder
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1065831.html
>Mr. Hsung,
Let there be no misunderstanding here. The statement in question that says,{Convert-Lou Pilder}, that says {save yourself first}is a statement that is allowed by you to be seen as civil where it is originally posted on the basis that you say that unsanctioned statements are not against your rules, and that it will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking and it is supportive by the nature that you say being supportive takes precedence.
But it is much more than that. Here is your reply to me that a subset of readers could think that you are using for a justification to allow the statement to remain unsanctioned. The statement puts down Jews as it could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down in that the statement could be thought by reasonable readers to mean that Judaism is an incomplete religion, inferior to Christianity because the statement implies that Jews are not saved and need to convert to Christianity in order to be saved. Because the statement is allowed to stand, readers could think that you are validating the hate that could be seen by reasonable readers in the statement as the statement stereotypes Jews as people unsaved, and could lead to the stigmatization of Jews as people destined to be left out of The World to Come as the poster does not define what he means by saved, so readers are at liberty to apply their own interpretation of what saved means. And the popular Christiandom interpretation of saved, is being saved from the Wrath of God so that to convert to Christianity could mean by the poster that Jews will not enter heaven unless they convert to Christianity, which is a false statement that defames Judaism making the statement in question defamation toward Jews.
Here is your reply that I will post about as to constitute what IMHHHO could cause harm to Jews and is not in accordance with the mission of your site which is for support including The Golden Rule, which I will show that your reply is not in accordance with what I as a Jew have been revealed as to what the Golden rule entails. To ignore that tragic consequences to Jews in the historical record form them being stereotyped and stigmatized, IMHHHHO is a reckless disregard for the truth.
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 15, 2014, at 8:20:44
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-wrklzdiz, posted by Lou Pilder on August 15, 2014, at 7:06:37
> > > > I would like for you to post your explanation of what the revisions are that you have made.
> > >
> > > I can see value in that, and have considered it, but unfortunately haven't had the time.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > > The question directed to you by me concerns vulgar {words} that I would like for you to prove are left unsanctioned by you posting a URL of one, for I do not see years of vulgar words being allowed to stand. Your answer concerns {vulgarity}, which is not the same as vulgar words.
> > >
> > > True, let me rephrase that:
> > >
> > > > > How interesting. I see clearly vulgar words and you do not. In a way, it is the opposite of how you see clear anti-Semitism and I do not.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > > Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
> > > > The poster writes,
> > > > [...Convert...save yourself...]
> > > > Let us first look at this post that is allowed to be seen as civil and supportive and will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking. After a look at the post, then I will post more concerning your invitation to me that you will consider what to do with this post. I am asking that you post a tag line like other posts here that lead a person to feel that their faith is being put down. If not, It is my contention that by you leaving unsanctioned antsemitism to be seen a civil here, that could stoke the furnace of hatred toward the Jews to come from this site.
> > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
> > > > And let us keep in mind that the rule here is to not post what could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down.
> > >
> > > We discussed this before:
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
> > >
> > > How about a new one?
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Mr. Hsiung,
> > Our discussion before was not complete and now some of our previous discussion needs to be resumed by me. This is because there is not a one-person issue here now since a new poster has joined this discussion and the fact that you are leaving statements that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings and statements that defame me unsanctioned where they are originally posted that can cause harm to me and Jews throughout the world. Then there is the fact that a subset of readers could think that you are using evasion tactics such as just to not answer about what revisions you have made to your FAQ/TOS. You say that you do not have the time to answer. I would think that you do have an obligation to at least list the section of your FAQ that you revised.
> > But it is much more than that. For I do not think that to allow statements that are anti-Semitic or that defame me to be seen as civil by you where they are originally posted, to be justified by the reasons that you have posted here. And the fact that you could be secretly changing your rules, in that readers have no disclosure as to what your changes have been and why, opens up the aspect of a subset of readers thinking that there could be deceit having the possibility of challenging the health of this community and could lead to the deaths of readers. This is one reason that I need to open up some of these previous posts because of that you are making changes without those changes being disclosed to readers.
> > Here is one important post that I think readers could use in making their own determination concerning these issues.
> > Lou Pilder
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1065831.html
> >
>
> Mr. Hsung,
> Let there be no misunderstanding here. The statement in question that says,{Convert-Lou Pilder}, that says {save yourself first}is a statement that is allowed by you to be seen as civil where it is originally posted on the basis that you say that unsanctioned statements are not against your rules, and that it will be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking and it is supportive by the nature that you say being supportive takes precedence.
> But it is much more than that. Here is your reply to me that a subset of readers could think that you are using for a justification to allow the statement to remain unsanctioned. The statement puts down Jews as it could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down in that the statement could be thought by reasonable readers to mean that Judaism is an incomplete religion, inferior to Christianity because the statement implies that Jews are not saved and need to convert to Christianity in order to be saved. Because the statement is allowed to stand, readers could think that you are validating the hate that could be seen by reasonable readers in the statement as the statement stereotypes Jews as people unsaved, and could lead to the stigmatization of Jews as people destined to be left out of The World to Come as the poster does not define what he means by saved, so readers are at liberty to apply their own interpretation of what saved means. And the popular Christiandom interpretation of saved, is being saved from the Wrath of God so that to convert to Christianity could mean by the poster that Jews will not enter heaven unless they convert to Christianity, which is a false statement that defames Judaism making the statement in question defamation toward Jews.
> Here is your reply that I will post about as to constitute what IMHHHO could cause harm to Jews and is not in accordance with the mission of your site which is for support including The Golden Rule, which I will show that your reply is not in accordance with what I as a Jew have been revealed as to what the Golden rule entails. To ignore that tragic consequences to Jews in the historical record form them being stereotyped and stigmatized, IMHHHHO is a reckless disregard for the truth.
> Lou Pilder
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.htmlMr. Hsiung.
Looking at your justification for allowing the statement that could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down, we see that you did not raise the issue that you think that the statement is civil according to your thinking. You gave one justification for allowing the statement to stand, which is:
[...Christian people may also convert to Judaism just as, or even more frequently...].
The tactic of evasion is done by using deceit by making a statement that could be true that is irrelevant and could lead to a false conclusion.
Your statement that readers could think that you are using to justify that the statement that could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down is civil and that you will not sanction the statement because of that, uses a statement that is false and irrelevant. That is your statement that some readers could think that you are making the claim that Christian people can convert to Judaism even more frequently. The truth of the matter could be shown to not substantiate that claim by you because Judaism does not seek converts and it is a rare happening for Christians to convert to Judaism according to statistics concerning that which are published, and records from Jewish sects. In fact, the conversions are usually for purposes of marriage and many Jewish branches do not honor conversions. But the main point is that these conversions are small in number and refute your claim as the record shows, that [...just as, or even more frequently...].
Then there could be a subset of readers to think that deceit can be shown. For your claim to justify the allowing of the defamation toward the Jews here could be thought by them to be irrelevant. They could have a rational basis to think that on the grounds that by throwing up your "justification" for allowing the defamation of the Jews, those readers could think that you are trying to persuade readers that a conclusion can be made to justify your allowing to have the statement to stand on the basis of your claim that is false as there are records of conversions to Judaism and there are few in number in comparison to those that convert to Christianity. And even if your claim was true, as to how many people convert from either religion to the other, that is irrelevant to the fact that the statement could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down. It would not matter if your claim was true or not. Either way, it does not annul the fact that your rule is to not post what could lead one of another faith to feel put down and to not put them down for having their faith. To say that a Jew has to convert to Christianity to be saved, insults Judaism and is a statement not in accordance with what I have revealed as a Jew to be The Golden Rule.
But what is done by you here is to use the tactic of evasion by using the tactic of making a statement that is irrelevant to lead readers to make a conclusion based on that statement. If we took your claim to mean that the statement is civil if your claim is true, readers could be diverted away from what the statement in question purports and be deceived into thinking that the civility of the statement in question is dependent on your claim being true. There are records to show that your claim is false, but readers could be left with the task of finding that out for themselves. The tragic aspect of all of this is that you say that readers are to trust you, which means that a subset of readers will think that the defamation of the Jews depicted in the statement in question is civil b your thinking, since you post some sort of justification for readers to use for you to not sanction it. Those readers that trust you could follow you in all of the anti-Semitic statements that you are allowing to be seen as civil and all of the defamation to be seen as civil toward me and Jews, and act that out with hatred toward the Jews to inflict harm and even murder to Jews thinking that the will be doing what will be good for the community as a whole as you as a psychiatrist leads them to believe. I don't believe it, for I see a transparent attempt to justify anti-Semitism where no justification is deserved.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2014, at 1:12:34
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 14, 2014, at 21:48:17
> If guests were attracted to a group because of promises implicit in the presence of a clinical licensed professional and the relationship proved to be a nuisance because the clinically licensed professional deploys untested techniques that damage the mental tranquility of invitees known to already be at risk, would that comprise an attractive nuisance?
I'm not sure how any nuisance could be attractive.
> Do you know enough about your activities here to know whether you need any liability coverage to protect your assets against claims of harm that might arise from your activities?
>
> If someone were harmed, would you want to make them or their surviving family whole? Do you believe no harm could result, or that you could in no way be liable from harm that results from your activities here?
>
> Do you have an opinion about your liabilities here beyond presuming you are exempt from liabilities typically associated with a doctor/patient relationship?You and Lou do seem to have something in common, worry about harm that might arise from my activities here.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 16, 2014, at 9:58:24
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 3, 2014, at 10:22:56
> > D. Some of Lou's notifications that are outstanding pre-date 2013
> > F. Statements that insult Judaism in particular but not limited to, are showing unsanctioned before 2013.
> > G. Statements that defame Lou are showing unsanctioned that were posted before 2013.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that my policy didn't change until 2013. It had been evolving before that, but I may not have made it explicit until then.
>
> --
>
> > A. If you do or do not have a notification from me concerning the statement in question
>
> OK, I looked, and in fact I do.
>
> > B. If you are willing to turn over your archive of notifications to an impartial body for discovery
>
> No.
>
> > C. Why you posted what you did here {except maybe you}, if you would not have sanctioned the statement anyway even if there is the notification from me on the grounds that you state that you will use the discriminatory policy to act on notifications except for some of Lou's.
>
> Sorry, could you repeat your question?
>
> > D. What the good is by you leaving the defamation against me to be seen as civil in the post where it is posted originally, since your thinking is that what you do will be good for this community as a whole, and for readers to trust you at that.
>
> 1. Not sanctioning it could lead to it being seen as civil, but not necessarily.
>
> 2. The good I see is that intervening less = trusting the community, including yourself, more.
>
> > E. Why do you want readers to trust you in what you do in your thinking here if defamation is allowed to be seen as civil where it is originally posted if your rule is to not post anything that could lead one to feel accused or put down?
>
> If they trust me, (1) there may be less conflict here and (2) they may be more able to trust others.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
Let there be no misunderstanding here. You are allowing defamation against me to be seen as civil by you where it is posted originally. The false statement that I am a disturbed person posted here could cause harm to me. But it is much more than that.
Your reply to me here could lead readers to think that you are justifying your allowing of the defamation toward me to be seen as civil where it is posted originally. To justify hate here is not in accordance with what has been revealed to me as a Jew as part of the Golden Rule that you say you use in your moderation of this site. Nor could it be considered fair by a subset of readers for you to discriminate by sanctioning other statements that could lead one to feel put down or accused and leave the defamation toward me to be seen as civil.
The tactic of evading in the aspect of deceit is when one puts forth a reason to justify something by making a statement that you want others to think is true that is irrelevant and leads to a false conclusion.
Here you put forth that you are justified in leaving the defamation un sanctioned on the basis that you put forth that by doing so there will be less conflict and readers will be more able to trust others. As to if that is true or false does not annul the fact that the harm that could come to me from being defamed falsely as a disturbed person that others could think that you are ratifying the libel on the basis that you say that un repudiated statements means that the statement is not against your rules. To allow any justification for defamation is not in accordance with support for your rule is to not post anything that could lead one to feel put down.
If you could do this to me, you could allow defamation to stand against anyone here, justifying in your mind that it will be good for this community as a whole. That is the same argument used to justify slavery, and infanticide, and discrimination and genocide. Time will be the judge of that. But time has already judged how discrimination harms those that are victims of it and how genocide was fostered on the basis that it would be good for the country as a whole. They become stigmatized and devalued and the practice of discrimination is abhorrent to the Golden Rule in what as been revealed to me as a Jew. It can cause depression in vulnerable people, people like those here. And readers led to believe that they can get support here as you state that being supportive takes precedence. They could feel protected by reading your TOS. But your TOS can deceive readers because you fail to disclose that they could be harmed by becoming victims of defamation that you use discrimination as a tool to allow it. And by you saying that you use the Golden Rule and fairness in your moderation, that could lead to members to think that you would abide by your rules and they could take you at your word in that they would not be discriminated against by you and your deputies of record. And that you want readers to trust you, what could happen to them when you use discrimination against them and allow defamation to be posted against them?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2014, at 12:01:09
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-evydece, posted by Lou Pilder on August 15, 2014, at 8:20:44
> > > Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
> > > > Save yourself first. Jewish people convert to Christianity all the time.
> > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html> Our discussion before was not complete and now some of our previous discussion needs to be resumed by me.
OK, let's resume that discussion.
> The statement in question ... is a statement that is allowed by you to be seen as civil where it is originally posted on the basis that you say that unsanctioned statements are not against your rules
As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> But it is much more than that. Here is your reply to me
> > IMO that wasn't ... a put-down of Judaism. For one thing, Christian people may also convert to Judaism just as, or even more, frequently.
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html> The tactic of evasion is done by using deceit by making a statement that could be true that is irrelevant and could lead to a false conclusion.
I agree, statements that could be true, yet could lead to false conclusions, can be a problem. The approach I'm trying now is to allow them -- and also to allow others to post that the statements aren't necessarily true and the conclusions could be false.
> Your statement that readers could think that you are using to justify that the statement that could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down is civil and that you will not sanction the statement because of that, uses a statement that is false and irrelevant. That is your statement that some readers could think that you are making the claim that Christian people can convert to Judaism even more frequently. The truth of the matter could be shown to not substantiate that claim by you because Judaism does not seek converts and it is a rare happening for Christians to convert to Judaism according to statistics concerning that which are published, and records from Jewish sects. In fact, the conversions are usually for purposes of marriage and many Jewish branches do not honor conversions. But the main point is that these conversions are small in number and refute your claim
I didn't research it myself. How often in fact do Jewish people convert to Christianity and Christian people convert to Judaism?
> And even if your claim was true, as to how many people convert from either religion to the other, that is irrelevant to the fact that the statement could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down. It would not matter if your claim was true or not. Either way, it does not annul the fact that your rule is to not post what could lead one of another faith to feel put down and to not put them down for having their faith.
I thought it was relevant to the second part of the post, the claim that Jewish people converted to Christianity all the time.
> To say that a Jew has to convert to Christianity to be saved, insults Judaism and is a statement not in accordance with what I have revealed as a Jew to be The Golden Rule.
> But what is done by you here is to use the tactic of evasion by using the tactic of making a statement that is irrelevant to lead readers to make a conclusion based on that statement.I wouldn't call addressing the second part of the post evasion. I addressed the first part of the post, too:
> > I agree, it wasn't sensitive to your feelings, but that's different from putting down Judaism. And I usually don't consider telling someone what to do once to be pressure/harassment.
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060624.htmlAlso, the post didn't say that you, or any Jew, had to convert to Christianity to be saved.
Bob
Posted by Bryte on August 16, 2014, at 12:50:01
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2014, at 1:12:34
> I'm not sure how any nuisance could be attractive.
Google is your friend. Try it.
> You and Lou do seem to have something in common, worry about harm that might arise from my activities here.
Do consider interest or concern to always indicate worry?
Your definition of civility appears to include statements that could make others feel put down.
Do you believe characterizing someone's interest or concern as worry could lead a person to feel put down.
Do you think such characterization could cause a person to suspect someone may have attempted to make them feel put down?
Does your ongoing participation in dialogue about your activities indicate that you worry about your activities here?
Posted by Bryte on August 16, 2014, at 13:05:58
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2014, at 12:01:09
> Also, the post didn't say that you, or any Jew, had to convert to Christianity to be saved.
>
> BobThen ... although you previously disallowed Lou from posting texts about the foundations of his religion ... would you call the following statements in this forum uncivil at this time, outside discussion considering these statements in the abstract as is done here?
"Reasons against organized religion:
5. To advance any agenda that does not promote a caliphate under Sharia law."
And...
"Save yourself first. Christian people convert to Islam in Northern Iraq all the time."
And, may Lou now post the previously disallowed messages about the foundation of his faith?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 16, 2014, at 17:40:10
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 16, 2014, at 12:01:09
> > > > Here is one that puts down Judaism and leads me to feel that Judaism is being put down.
>
> > > > > Save yourself first. Jewish people convert to Christianity all the time.
> > > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
>
> > Our discussion before was not complete and now some of our previous discussion needs to be resumed by me.
>
> OK, let's resume that discussion.
>
> > The statement in question ... is a statement that is allowed by you to be seen as civil where it is originally posted on the basis that you say that unsanctioned statements are not against your rules
>
> As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
>
> > But it is much more than that. Here is your reply to me
>
> > > IMO that wasn't ... a put-down of Judaism. For one thing, Christian people may also convert to Judaism just as, or even more, frequently.
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060220.html
>
> > The tactic of evasion is done by using deceit by making a statement that could be true that is irrelevant and could lead to a false conclusion.
>
> I agree, statements that could be true, yet could lead to false conclusions, can be a problem. The approach I'm trying now is to allow them -- and also to allow others to post that the statements aren't necessarily true and the conclusions could be false.
>
> > Your statement that readers could think that you are using to justify that the statement that could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down is civil and that you will not sanction the statement because of that, uses a statement that is false and irrelevant. That is your statement that some readers could think that you are making the claim that Christian people can convert to Judaism even more frequently. The truth of the matter could be shown to not substantiate that claim by you because Judaism does not seek converts and it is a rare happening for Christians to convert to Judaism according to statistics concerning that which are published, and records from Jewish sects. In fact, the conversions are usually for purposes of marriage and many Jewish branches do not honor conversions. But the main point is that these conversions are small in number and refute your claim
>
> I didn't research it myself. How often in fact do Jewish people convert to Christianity and Christian people convert to Judaism?
>
> > And even if your claim was true, as to how many people convert from either religion to the other, that is irrelevant to the fact that the statement could lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down. It would not matter if your claim was true or not. Either way, it does not annul the fact that your rule is to not post what could lead one of another faith to feel put down and to not put them down for having their faith.
>
> I thought it was relevant to the second part of the post, the claim that Jewish people converted to Christianity all the time.
>
> > To say that a Jew has to convert to Christianity to be saved, insults Judaism and is a statement not in accordance with what I have revealed as a Jew to be The Golden Rule.
> > But what is done by you here is to use the tactic of evasion by using the tactic of making a statement that is irrelevant to lead readers to make a conclusion based on that statement.
>
> I wouldn't call addressing the second part of the post evasion. I addressed the first part of the post, too:
>
> > > I agree, it wasn't sensitive to your feelings, but that's different from putting down Judaism. And I usually don't consider telling someone what to do once to be pressure/harassment.
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060624.html
>
> Also, the post didn't say that you, or any Jew, had to convert to Christianity to be saved.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...as a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that...].
I see no revision at all, except that you have written to me here that you *should* revise that.
A subset of readers could think that you are going to revise your policy in order to allow the anti-Semitic statement in question to be seen as supportive or not supportive since you now say that the policy that you should make in your revision is that you may leave an uncivil statement to stand un intervened so that readers could not know if you are considering the statement civil or not by you. Readers still could consider the statement civil by you after you make the revision that you say that you should make. But the revision covers that you give yourself the option to allow anti-Semitism and defamation toward me to stand in the post where it is originally posted. That brings us back to that harm could come to a subset of vulnerable readers here regardless if you make the revision or not. And to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet, that readers could know besides that you post here that you should make the revision or they could not know of the revision unless they see this one post here which some readers may not even visit this board. And if you do post a disclosure to the forum in some way that they could know of the revision, would that not raise the issue as to your intent here and think that you are making your revision to allow Jews to be defamed here? Those readers could have a rational basis to think that on the grounds that the statement in question is admitted by you to be not sensitive to my feelings as a Jew, but looking at the grammatical structure of the statement, [Convert-Lou Pilder...save yourself first.. convert to Christianity...], the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew. That is analogous to saying that being a Jew prohibits Jews from being saved. Or, No non-Christian will enter heaven. Or, Only Christians can be saved. All of those are already said by you to be statements that either put down Jews or lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down. The aspect that it is implied in the statement that unless Jews convert to Christianity they will not be saved, which is pressure, the pressure of the threat of being unsaved unless one converts. That threat, is psychological pressure used historically to dehumanize and stigmatize and belittle Jews on the basis that the statement, in and of itself, defames Judaism as a religion that can not offer salvation to those that give service and worship to the God that the Jews cherish.
I feel put down as a Jew when I read it and as long as you allow it to be seen without your tagline to please be civil, the damage that could arise out of readers seeing the statement as civil by you, could spread the fire of hatred toward the Jews through the winds of the internet into homes all over the world. Those winds can not be stilled even if you do post some type of revision, for the fire of hate started when the post was first posted and revising to allow it, could be thought by a subset of readers to mean that you could allow even more defamation toward the Jews to remain un sanctioned here by you. They could think that because your revision will allow you to do that on the basis that your revision says that you could allow anti-Semitism to stand here.
Let there be no misunderstanding here. Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2014, at 23:40:38
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 16, 2014, at 13:05:58
> > You and Lou do seem to have something in common, worry about harm that might arise from my activities here.
>
> Do consider interest or concern to always indicate worry?I can rephrase that:
You and Lou do seem to have something in common, interest or concern about harm that might arise from my activities here.
> would you call the following statements in this forum uncivil at this time, outside discussion considering these statements in the abstract as is done here? ...
I'm not sure, it might depend on the context.
> And, may Lou now post the previously disallowed messages about the foundation of his faith?
No. If you're interested, you're free to babblemail him.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 0:00:31
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-shudreviz » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 16, 2014, at 17:40:10
> > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
>
> I see no revision at allBefore, I said:
> > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> >
> > Righthttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
Above, I revised that:
> > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
--
> to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
> the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
> Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
Bob
Posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 1:30:30
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2014, at 23:40:38
> You and Lou do seem to have something in common, interest or concern about harm that might arise from my activities here.It is interesting that you notice a common interest in harm reduction but do not include yourself in that group that shares concerns about harm that could arise from your activities here. Do you think my concerns are different than your concerns?
If you recognize that people can be harmed by capricious enforcement of arbitrary, ad hoc rules, how do you choose whom you will expose to such potential harm?
Posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 11:19:42
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 1:30:30
There have been several times over the past years when I have been pretty much the only person receiving sanctions, despite the fact that my comments are widely considered (by other community members) to be extremely moderate in comparison to others posted at the same time, and are often applied because of my request that mild, intermittent sanctions be applied to posts which appeared extremely destructive to the well-being of community as a whole.
The excessive retribution directed at my comments has been repeatedly characterized by other community members as "unfair", "bullying" and "capricious". I think it would be next to impossible to 1) avoid the impression that they are written with an intent to cause me stress and harm, and 2) that there is no constructive principle which would justify them. These actions appear to be caused by personal emotional reactions towards my comments which are not subjected to thoughtful review.
Treating different community members by differing standards, which are never made clear, may confer a sense of power and control temporarily. But all social groups need uniform, fairly- applied expectations and standards in order to survive and flourish. I believe it is very valid that you are drawing attention to the fact that they are missing here, and are very much needed.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:43:04
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 0:00:31
> > > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> >
> > I see no revision at all
>
> Before, I said:
>
> > > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> > >
> > > Right
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
>
> Above, I revised that:
>
> > > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
>
> --
>
> > to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
>
> I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
>
> > the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
>
> A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
>
> > Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
>
> I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote in my response to you that for there to be a revision the FAQ would need to have the revision in it as to be a disclosure to the readers here, that:
[...I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ...].
Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/2014004/msgs/1068732.html
Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
What was behind you writing that?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:45:53
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-bhdphay » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:43:04
> > > > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> > >
> > > I see no revision at all
> >
> > Before, I said:
> >
> > > > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> > > >
> > > > Right
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
> >
> > Above, I revised that:
> >
> > > > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
> >
> > I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
> >
> > > the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
> >
> > A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
> >
> > > Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
> >
> > I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
> >
> > Bob
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
> You wrote in my response to you that for there to be a revision the FAQ would need to have the revision in it as to be a disclosure to the readers here, that:
> [...I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ...].
> Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/2014004/msgs/1068732.html
> Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
> What was behind you writing that?
> Lou Pilder
>
correction to link
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:50:40
In reply to correction to link for -bhdphay, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:45:53
> > > > > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> > > >
> > > > I see no revision at all
> > >
> > > Before, I said:
> > >
> > > > > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> > > > >
> > > > > Right
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
> > >
> > > Above, I revised that:
> > >
> > > > > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > > to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
> > >
> > > I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
> > >
> > > > the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
> > >
> > > A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
> > >
> > > > Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
> > >
> > > I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Mr. Hsiung,
> > You wrote in my response to you that for there to be a revision the FAQ would need to have the revision in it as to be a disclosure to the readers here, that:
> > [...I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ...].
> > Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/2014004/msgs/1068732.html
> > Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
> > What was behind you writing that?
> > Lou Pilder
> >
> correction to link
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
>
correction to the correction:
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
Posted by pontormo on August 21, 2014, at 19:45:41
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » Bryte, posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 11:19:42
Hi Twinleaf,
I often agree with aspects of your critique of some of what's happened-- or at least with how certain things have been handled-- but I I hope you don't really believe that it's next to impossible to avoid the impression that what Bob writes is meant to cause you stress and harm.
I still believe that whatever Bob's mistakes-- or at least choices that I think unhelpful or even misguided-- he makes them honestly-- and while I may not understand why he handles things as he does, he'is trying to do the best he can by us.
I can be frustrated, or uncomfortable with things here-- or outright not like them, or upset by them (at least momentarily), but I can keep coming here only because I do believe in Bob's and our good faith.
It's very sad to me that you are unable to see this right now-- and I hope, on reflection, that you can sense that even if he has been unfair in some respects-- or not expressed things well-- he doesn't intend to cause you harm.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 20:43:58
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by pontormo on August 21, 2014, at 19:45:41
> Hi Twinleaf,
>
> I often agree with aspects of your critique of some of what's happened-- or at least with how certain things have been handled-- but I I hope you don't really believe that it's next to impossible to avoid the impression that what Bob writes is meant to cause you stress and harm.
>
> I still believe that whatever Bob's mistakes-- or at least choices that I think unhelpful or even misguided-- he makes them honestly-- and while I may not understand why he handles things as he does, he'is trying to do the best he can by us.
>
> I can be frustrated, or uncomfortable with things here-- or outright not like them, or upset by them (at least momentarily), but I can keep coming here only because I do believe in Bob's and our good faith.
>
> It's very sad to me that you are unable to see this right now-- and I hope, on reflection, that you can sense that even if he has been unfair in some respects-- or not expressed things well-- he doesn't intend to cause you harm.pontormo,
You wrote,[...I hope you really don't believe that it is next to impossible to avoid the impression that what Bob writes is meant to cause you harm and stress...I believe...he doesn't intend to cause you harm...].
The aspect as to if Twinleaf has a rational basis to think what she does, involves what a generally accepted understanding is concerning what a reasonable person could believe concerning discrimination and what the research shows as to what can happen to the psychological/emotional damage that could happen to a person as the result of being a victim of discrimination.
One question is s to if you know the intent of Mr. Hsiung here. I have the following concerns.
A. How did you arrive at the belief that you have that Mr. Hsiung does not intend to cause harm to twinleaf?
B. Does it really matter if the intent of Mr. Hsiung is to not cause harm but harm happens anyway?
C. Is the standard that Mr. Hsiung {should know}, even if he doesn't know, what can cause emotional distress if he is going to chair a mental-health forum for support?
Lou
Posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 21:59:01
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by pontormo on August 21, 2014, at 19:45:41
Well....I don't think there is any doubt that I have been repeatedly singled out in a negative way, but I guess you are right - I can't really know what the motive actually is.
It has definitely been a very uncomfortable experience.
Posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 23:42:45
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » pontormo, posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 21:59:01
> It has definitely been a very uncomfortable experience.
One wonders to what extent discomfort is symptomatic of harm. One might suspect that, when reports of discomfort accumulate, harm might also be present.
The question with regard to harm might not be limited to whether something "is meant to cause you stress and harm." Intentional harm might incur a different or greater liability, but liability might also attach when an owner neglects duties of care. One can find numerous online sources to explain those concepts.
Much discussion of forum providers' liability addresses vicarious liability and contributory liability - especially as it relates to service provider definitions. In a venue where a mental health forum owner promises "The Best of Both Worlds," asserts that "posts I take responsibility for are my own," claims a right to "use (contributed content) as I wish" and exercises substantial, active control over what content is contributed, one might wonder to what extent questions of direct liability might arise.
It might be an accurate observation that many forum providers have opted for less overt involvement, have quietly removed potentially harmful content and have allowed members to remove or edit their own contributed content in part as means to avoid direct liability and clearly establish the owners' role as mere service providers.
It could be interesting to explore how many forum owners have persuaded liability underwriters the wisdom of making public, permanent examples of members in experimental efforts to explain ambiguous milieu expectations a professional leader cannot or will not explain in a TOS document - especially in contexts where membership predictably includes a significant proportion of at risk members.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 23:48:42
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » pontormo, posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 21:59:01
> excessive retribution directed at my comments
> repeatedly singled out in a negative way
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: This block is the result of one action, but its length is the result of a pattern of actions. The block length formula:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
takes into account how long the previous block was, how long it's been since the previous block, and how uncivil the current post is:
duration of previous block = 2 weeks
period of time since previous block = 31 weeks
severity = 2 (default)
block length = 2.23 rounded = 2 weeks
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