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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 198 to 222 of 225. Go back in thread:
Posted by 10derheart on October 12, 2013, at 20:10:04
In reply to Re: blocked for 11 weeks Dr.Bob » 10derheart, posted by Twinleaf on October 11, 2013, at 22:57:13
>>It would never occur to me to think of any of the deputies as nasty or despicable
I'm glad of that and thanks for taking the time to say so.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2013, at 8:37:26
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 12, 2013, at 11:35:40
> Just to make sure I am clear: I feel great admiration and support for all of the former deputies as people and as valuable members of our community. I have had wonderful and meaningful Interactions actions with them. I had a lot of empathy for them, watching them struggle to administer the policies as fairly as they could. I know it was very, very hard at times.
I appreciate this, Twinleaf. And I also appreciate and thank you for saying it.
> I think you all know this about me by now, and it doesn't need to keep coming up. It's really getting old!
I appreciate and thank you for saying this as well.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 13, 2013, at 22:40:52
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2013, at 8:45:07
> I just can't support either Dr.Bob or the deputies carrying out policies which I felt were destructive to the well- being of the community.
>
> Twinleaf> I appreciate your desire to help us feel supported, Dr. Bob. But I fear your efforts might lead to more pain for us as people explain why they can't give it.
You may be right.
> My wish would only be for people to give up already on mentioning us in any complaints against current management.
>
> The unkindnesses to us are far less than they once were. But it's like water on stone. The constant drip drip drip of negative comments.
>
> Must people bring it up again and again and again? It isn't necessary to say whatever is in one's mind. If it is no longer relevant, why continue to mention it? The only result is to cause pain among present and former deputies. If that's not the goal, then why bother?
>
> DinahThe goal could be to improve Babble. Making it better for everyone might outweigh causing some people some pain. I feel that way myself at times. A civil community is better for everyone, so it's OK to cause some people some pain by blocking them, for example.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2013, at 8:15:37
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 13, 2013, at 22:40:52
How would mentioning deputies, when there are no active deputies and are not likely to be, improve Babble? What gains can there be above the pain caused to former deputies?
But that you can see gain that outweighs the pain, despite the lack of current deputies, reinforces my belief that **this** Babble is not really the sort of environment I wish to put myself in. I can change my life by changing my environment. I choose not be in an uncivil environment.
I guess I can thank you for that.
Posted by Twinleaf on October 14, 2013, at 16:04:06
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 14, 2013, at 8:15:37
Dinah has a very good point. It has been several years since there were any active deputies (I know Racer still contributes, but rarely). The deputies' ability to help you carry out the civility and blocking policies of several years ago apparently weakened and then ceased at the same time that you stopped actively administering these policies, in what seemed like a tacit recognition that they were causing a lot of stress and distress. I think we assumed that you knew that a site dedicated to mutual support and education had gone off-course, and you wanted to find a way to correct that.
Do you really expect that we will support the deputies for trying to carry out policies which simply weren't working well? Isn't it a given that they have all been outstanding members of the community who are all valued and supported as people? What is missing , in your mind? What support would you like from us that you feel we are not giving? It actually appears that you are asking for support for your own previous policies. I had hoped, and thought, that we had all grown from acknowledging the mistakes of that era, and are now working together to put them behind us. But, sadly, as Sigi has noted, perhaps not.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2013, at 23:47:21
In reply to Re: support. Dr.Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 14, 2013, at 16:04:06
> How would mentioning deputies, when there are no active deputies and are not likely to be, improve Babble? What gains can there be above the pain caused to former deputies?
Support could be above, or at least at the same level as, pain.
> But that you can see gain that outweighs the pain, despite the lack of current deputies, reinforces my belief that **this** Babble is not really the sort of environment I wish to put myself in. I can change my life by changing my environment. I choose not be in an uncivil environment.
>
> DinahI still consider this environment civil, even if it's not exactly a refuge. (Reasonable people can disagree.)
> Do you really expect that we will support the deputies for trying to carry out policies which simply weren't working well? ... What is missing , in your mind? What support would you like from us that you feel we are not giving?
>
> TwinleafI do expect posters to support the deputies for contributing to and making sacrifices for Babble. They put themselves in harm's way. Maybe Deputies Day could be the Babble version of Veterans Day.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on October 21, 2013, at 6:31:04
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2013, at 23:47:21
This is where we have a difference of opinin which I'm afraid cannot be bridged. You know that I feel great respect and support for each deputy, and I do admire their willingness to help administer your policies - including bearing the stresses which came with doing that. You mention that they put themselves in harm's way, and that is true. But - and this is all-important to me - I never harmed them , but they did harm me by helping to administer blocking policies towards me which to this day I consider very harsh and extreme. I have forgiven it but I would be stupid to forget it. I think it is very disrespectful of you to expect me to support actions which were harmful to me. I do feel the deputies were trying to be helpful, and did not mean to hurt anyone, but the blocking policy towards me in particular at that time was so harsh that hostility, punishment and emotional hurt were, unfortunately, an inevitable part of it.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2013, at 23:37:36
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 21, 2013, at 6:31:04
> I feel great respect and support for each deputy, and I do admire their willingness to help administer your policies - including bearing the stresses which came with doing that. You mention that they put themselves in harm's way, and that is true.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
> But - and this is all-important to me - I never harmed them , but they did harm me by helping to administer blocking policies towards me which to this day I consider very harsh and extreme. I have forgiven it but I would be stupid to forget it. I think it is very disrespectful of you to expect me to support actions which were harmful to me. I do feel the deputies were trying to be helpful, and did not mean to hurt anyone, but the blocking policy towards me in particular at that time was so harsh that hostility, punishment and emotional hurt were, unfortunately, an inevitable part of it.
I accept, and regret, that my policies harmed you.
Maybe it's asking too much to expect posters who've been harmed by my policies to support the deputies. Maybe it's like expecting victims of friendly fire to support the military. Maybe forgiveness is all that can be expected.
(You may not have intended to harm the deputies, but may have. Just like they may not have intended to harm you, but may have.)
I wonder if a rapprochement might be possible. Should we start with me? Do you also feel I, through my policies, was trying to be helpful and didn't mean to hurt anyone?
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on October 22, 2013, at 8:23:21
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 21, 2013, at 23:37:36
Bob, there is really a continuing problem here. YOU are the one who keeps bringing up the deputies! If you keep bringing them up, as Dinah points out, three are of course going to be hurt feelings as people honestly describe their reactions to that painful time several years ago. As far as I know, no posters - certainly not me - are bringing them up and we are certainly not blaming them. I consider, from the bitter feelings they express,that they were also victims of the unduly harsh and punitive administrative policy which prevailed at that time (but no longer does). Why don't you acknowledge that and then put the whole issue to rest?
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2013, at 2:42:08
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 22, 2013, at 8:23:21
> If you keep bringing them up ... three are of course going to be hurt feelings as people honestly describe their reactions to that painful time several years ago.
Wouldn't it also be honest to express feelings of admiration for their willingness to administrate, and to bear the stresses which came with doing that?
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on October 23, 2013, at 5:53:26
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2013, at 2:42:08
But I have expressed my admiration for that already - at least three times in just this one thread. And they have acknowledged that and said that they appreciated what I said. Everything is fine, except that you keep raising this topic. I don't think it's an active topic of concern to anyone other than you.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 8:24:26
In reply to Re: support, posted by Twinleaf on October 23, 2013, at 5:53:26
> But I have expressed my admiration for that already - at least three times in just this one thread. And they have acknowledged that and said that they appreciated what I said. Everything is fine, except that you keep raising this topic. I don't think it's an active topic of concern to anyone other than you.
OK, maybe it's just me. If the present and former deputies feel supported, then everything's fine with me, too.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on October 24, 2013, at 9:18:28
In reply to Re: support, posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 8:24:26
So as to be as clear as possible what the actual problem is, it is not, and never has been, that we don't respect and appreciate the deputies or appreciate the heroic efforts they made to administer the policies in effect a few years ago as fairly as possible.
Judging from some of the comments they have made (only when the subject is brought up), they still have painful feelings about trying so hard to administer a policy so harsh, inconsistent and unpopular with the vast majority. It was a hopeless task for them - and for you. When the deputies express their feelings honestly, they seem mainly angry at you for putting them in such a difficult position. I think if you dealt more directly with the feelings they have towards you, rather than dragging all the rest of us into it, you would be taking steps towards resolution.
Posted by jane d on October 24, 2013, at 22:50:11
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 24, 2013, at 9:18:28
I'm very grateful to you for explaining to me throughout this thread what *we* think the problem really is. Until you did that *I* thought you might be harboring a grudge against the deputies for your own failure to grasp the site rules even long after those rules changed. Perhaps it was the tone of your disclaimers which (to me) sounded a bit like someone saying that yes, their neighbor was an ax murderer but of course he kept his lawn nicely mowed. I'm glad that *we* have now been corrected.
Jane,
pondering the experience of having turned into part of the "vast majority" just by staying silent.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 24, 2013, at 22:51:25
In reply to Re: support » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on October 24, 2013, at 9:18:28
> it is not, and never has been, that we don't respect and appreciate the deputies or appreciate the heroic efforts they made to administer the policies in effect a few years ago as fairly as possible.
Thanks for reiterating that.
> Judging from some of the comments they have made ... they still have painful feelings about trying so hard to administer a policy so harsh, inconsistent and unpopular with the vast majority. It was a hopeless task for them - and for you. When the deputies express their feelings honestly, they seem mainly angry at you for putting them in such a difficult position. I think if you dealt more directly with the feelings they have towards you, rather than dragging all the rest of us into it, you would be taking steps towards resolution.
1. I'm willing to deal directly with any feelings they have towards me. They know how to reach me.
2. I wonder if support from posters would've helped them when they were in such a difficult position.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on October 25, 2013, at 7:39:55
In reply to Re: support » Twinleaf, posted by jane d on October 24, 2013, at 22:50:11
I can see now that I made a mistake using the word "we". I should have just stayed with "I". Sorry!. I don't remember any expressions of criticism of the deputies by other posters, though, but I still should not have been speaking for anyone else.
I find the rest of your post extremely sarcastic and hostile.
Posted by jane d on October 25, 2013, at 23:28:19
In reply to Re: support » jane d, posted by Twinleaf on October 25, 2013, at 7:39:55
> I find the rest of your post extremely sarcastic and hostile..You're right. It was. I've been regretting the tone since I posted it. I now wish I had said something more along the lines that I wished you wouldn't sound like you were speaking for everyone and that I hoped that you hadn't been mislead into believing that you did merely because no one openly disagreed. And I should have said it a long time ago instead of taking years worth of irritation out on you in one post.
Of course I also disagree with you about the value of the deputies *as deputies* and I really hope that it is my view of the great job they did that they go away believing, not yours.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2013, at 13:51:51
In reply to Re: support » Twinleaf, posted by jane d on October 25, 2013, at 23:28:19
> I hoped that you hadn't been mislead into believing that you did merely because no one openly disagreed.
It's easy to jump to conclusions online. You can't look around to see if others are nodding in agreement or rolling their eyes in disbelief.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2013, at 2:46:48
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this, posted by Dr. Bob on December 6, 2013, at 1:49:26
How the H*ll would a refuge board work?
Lou could still arouse anti-former-deputy feeling and as long as I didn't read it, I'd be happy as can be to post politely with him on the Refuge board?
I am appalled to think that you allow former deputies to be abused because they tried to help you out. And I'm not just talking me here. It's beyond enough that the abuse we were forced to tolerate as deputies can't be outlawed once we go back to being purely mental health consumers on this board.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2013, at 2:59:04
In reply to Re: why one should have to learn this » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2013, at 2:46:48
> How the H*ll would a refuge board work?
>
> Lou could still arouse anti-former-deputy feeling and as long as I didn't read it, I'd be happy as can be to post politely with him on the Refuge board?The idea is that it would be a refuge from anti-former-deputy feelings, including those posted by Lou. You'd be safe from them there.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2013, at 4:14:33
In reply to Re: How a refuge board would work, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2013, at 2:59:04
Ok, then, let me say I don't understand your thinking at all if you don't see that that isn't anywhere near a ....
Oh, screw it.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2013, at 17:42:35
In reply to Re: How a refuge board would work, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2013, at 4:14:33
> Ok, then, let me say I don't understand your thinking at all if you don't see that that isn't anywhere near a ....
Or maybe I don't understand your thinking at all.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2013, at 18:35:48
In reply to Re: How a refuge board would work, posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2013, at 17:42:35
Ok, I can see one situation where it might work. If it were completely separate from Babble.
For the most part, anyone could join as part of joining Babble. But if anyone is uncivil to anyone who posts on Civility Babble on Incivility Babble, they lose their citizenship on Civility Babble as well as if they are repeatedly uncivil on Civility Babble. There would be no blocks, no lengths, they would be laterally moved. And they could apply for reinstatement to Civility Babble after proving that they want to be on a site moderated for civility and understand what that entails.
Naturally, those who wished to hold dual citizenship, and could operate in both environments, could do so. In fact, that would be the default.
And the loss of citizenship, or request to terminate citizenship, needn't be all one way. I wouldn't want posting privileges in Uncivil Babble. I would treat it like I treat any site that I wouldn't want to be part of.
Because it wouldn't work if people on Civil Babble had to politely get along with people who are being highly uncivil towards them on Incivility Babble.
So for example, a poster who routinely posts uncivilly on Uncivil Babble, for example by repeated accusations of antisemitism or towards parents for harming their children through the use of psychiatric medications, they would not be allowed at all on Civil Babble. Just as an example and certainly not the only example.
Although all sorts of posts could be on Civil Babble (medications, psychology, social) the way it used to be on Babble before the split, there would have to be a separate Admin board even though reporting would be off board for the most part. That Admin board could be erased or at least archived as soon as a topic is resolved. That way the separate-board-operating-as-a-separate-site would be self contained, and posters would be able to post as if Incivility Babble were a separate site like Psych Central.
Civil Babble posters who wouldn't mind entering Uncivil Babble could suggest to those on Uncivil Babble who are upset at, for example, being accused of various things, that they join them on the board where those things won't happen.
Because the reason a Refuge Board won't work as a part of Babble is that just because people are polite there, it doesn't mean they aren't being very impolite about Civility Board posters elsewhere on the site. And I prefer the term Civility Board to Refuge Board, because we wouldn't necessarily have to walk on tippytoes. Just be reasonably respectful of each other.
Of course the names could be tweaked. Moderated Babble as opposed to.... Well, exactly what are you doing now? Group Facilitation Babble?
What would be even better would be if you made original Babble Moderated Babble, and enforce at least some of the old rules, and direct those who wish to post under the new paradigm to the alternate board. That would have the additional benefit of allowing you to be an ersatz therapist to people on the Group Facilitation board, because it would be made clear that that would be the way things were moderated there. You could conduct all your experiments in board management there, and people could grow as strong as you can make them.
Ooooh, and Moderated Babble wouldn't have Tweet or Facebook buttons. Maybe with greater assurances of privacy, some who were driven away might feel comfortable dropping in. You could be respectful of group feelings about such innovations, while still being able to experiment as much as you like on Group Facilitation Babble.
Best of all, you need never block anyone. You can just suggest to those who are having trouble remaining civil that Moderated Babble isn't the best fit for them, but that Group Facilitation Babble might be just the right place.
Actually I'm rather excited at the possibilities. Moderated Babble could even have the "Please cut that out" that would always have been desirable for behaviors that were uncivil in intent, but not form. Time outs or cooling off periods would last until the person is willing to abide by site rules, not for any set length of time. Politics and Religion could be part of Group Facilitation Babble, although respectful sharing of personal experiences would be allowed on the Moderated board. If it got less respectful, it would be redirected from the first unrespectful post to Group Facilitation Babble.
But without that wall between boards, the idea is unworkable.
Posted by 10derheart on December 10, 2013, at 23:25:44
In reply to Re: How a refuge board would work » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2013, at 18:35:48
That's pretty intriguing stuff. Wish my mind would create stuff like that - so detailed, so quickly, and making so much sense.
Too bad it'll never happen since whether you meant it more tongue-in-cheek or more serious, I actually like the sound of it.
I like the sound of any possibility to bring normalcy/civility back to a place like Babble, I suppose. Pipe dream, I think :-(
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2013, at 18:40:23
In reply to Re: How a refuge board would work » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on December 10, 2013, at 23:25:44
Well, I was serious, although there may be things that would need to be ironed out. It was actually said in a sudden spirit of compromise, as well as to try to explain to Dr. Bob why just adding a board called the Refuge board where people would have to be polite to each other *only* on that board would be more frustrating than soothing.
But apparently Bob doesn't think much of the idea. Surprise, surprise.
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