![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 55 to 79 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on July 2, 2013, at 19:46:44
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » gardenergirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
I, too, was hoping for a community that was exclusively self-moderating. I think it has been, for the most part, with few exceptions. Unfortunately, such exceptions, if left unchecked, can cause a forum to degenerate rather quickly. Your experiment has demonstrated this. So, now you know. You also know how resilient people can be. However, everyone has his limits - even those who would act as caretakers. I don't think that black-or-white thinking will work here. The social dynamics are too complex.
Perhaps you can "titrate" your level of intervention gradually?
- Scott
------------------------------------
> > Mr Hsiung and his deputy are allowing defamation to be heaped upon me
> >
> > Lou Pilder
>
> > So make your choice, deal with the consequences, and for Pete's sake, please don't whine about it!
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me or my deputy) to feel accused or put down.
>
> More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2013, at 19:49:32
In reply to Lou's reply-koldkoldhartz » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2013, at 16:59:47
You don't control me. Fact of life. My life that is can't speak for others
Posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2013, at 19:52:24
In reply to Thouhgts on Moderating Internet Forums, posted by Emme_V2 on July 2, 2013, at 19:09:00
Posted by SLS on July 2, 2013, at 20:11:04
In reply to Lou's reply-koldkoldhartz » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2013, at 16:59:47
> Allowing now members to bash me over and over now,
How do you define the word "bashing"?
So that you may be properly understood, can you cite examples of the bashing that you feel has been directed towards you?
Can you find any references to you by name that are not examples of bashing?
- Scott
Posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » gardenergirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
Right.
Thanks for the tiny crumb, after you had to be begged to do something.
It's funny how you either just randomly pick, or purposely pick one of the more benign accusations. This has been a pattern before. This speaks volumes after ignoring outrageous incivility about all the things I already listed for you. In fact, it confirms the priority you have about certain things being said to certain people here. Whatever.
If people in a community repeatedly notify you about the same problem, again and again, do you think you might want to read more of those posts so you could get a feel for what the hell we are trying to show you?
I don't want Lou silenced, blocked, or stifled. I *want* him to continue to speak out against psych drugs till the end of time if he likes. That's free speech. That belongs here.
I do not want Lou or anyone to NOT "scare people"....whether fear is a poster's reaction is about them, not so much Lou. It's all in the WAY IT IS PRESENTED. Do you remember not accusing, not exaggerating, and being sensitive? These were YOUR ideas, and ideals, I thought :-(
Do you not see the difference between:
"I could save you parents from giving your children poison (hint, hint, like that used by some group I can't mention anymore in history to murder Jewish children - hint, hint) and from life-ruining harm and damage that could make your children mass murderers and make them kill themselves"
AND
"I have serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs. I truly believe they alter and damage the mind and are dangerous. I don't want one more person, especially children, whose brains are likely more vulnerable, to be damaged by pills when there is another way to help them. I believe, based on {Insert link to evidence here] that medications are not the way to go and I am dedicated to saving lives here...""
~~~etc. etc and however else Lou wants to express himself as long as it is not filled with:
exaggerations
jumping to conclusions
accusations
put downs
harassment and pressure
This seems incredibly simple and obvious to me.
Posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:39:02
In reply to expressing myself » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
I do believe that *rule* left the building long ago.
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2013, at 22:39:20
In reply to expressing myself » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
Worded perfectly Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
In reply to expressing myself » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
> exaggerations
> jumping to conclusions
> accusations
> put downs
> harassment and pressure
>
> This seems incredibly simple and obvious to me.Great, it's simple to notify me, too.
Is anybody interested in a Refuge board?
Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou. Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters. Trying to practice what I've been preaching, I've reminded myself that misgivings about Lou aren't going to go away. They need continually to be battled. It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere.
Bob
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 2, 2013, at 23:44:05
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
I would love a refugee board.
Tom Petty says, "you don't have to live like a refugee.", but I like the idea.
What are we fleeing?
Posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
You are speaking in flipping riddles still. It's maddening.
This is not "about Lou," per se. It is about civility. No one else posting presently is posting these things on nearly each thread about taking meds, changing meds, withdrawing from meds, etc. Just Lou. When he does it, he generally does one of the things I listed, or something similar every time.
I have reported. I don't know what on Earth you are talking about any more.
Yes, I am interested in all the boards being refuge boards from the nasty, hardly moderated free-for-all that is found most places on the net.
Does it take that much energy to issue some PBCs and a block if needed? I just don't understand the problem. At all.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 2:11:28
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
> Does it take that much energy to issue some PBCs and a block if needed? I just don't understand the problem. At all.Well... I could be off, but I think his thought was that laurah learned that she was stronger than she thought and she expressed gratitude for support she had received. Which seemed like a win. And so it was unclear why a block was needed or what it would achieve. Because the poster got the support they were seeking.
I wonder about Lou... I'm not sure if this is civil or not but I'm trying my best to genuinely understand... At one point I wondered if he had Tourette's with repetitive verbal outbursts. I'm not sure how that would manifest verbally... In print... But there were aspects to his posts that got me thinking of that. Perseveration. Then I wondered if he was delusional. Persecutory delusions. That he believed he was currently the victim of anti-semitism here (there and most probably everywhere). Then Tourette's again... Obsessions... Compulsive posting behavior with requests every 5 minutes...
A label is not an explanation.
I firmly believe. Which is why I struggle with these thoughts. Because I believe they do Lou a serious dis-service. There must be a way of conceptualizing without labeling... The above description doesn't sit well with me at all...
But what I mean is... I bet Lou has a hard time of it with people not really understanding things... Where he is coming from...
I don't know whether he is on medication or not... One lady I know... Her son had been diagnosed with Schizophrenia and he didn't want to take his meds and... She ended up saying ok. For about a year she put up with kicked holes in walls and all kinds of weird behavior. Other people accused her of all kinds of things. Not least of which was abuse. I guess parents struggle with decisions either way... I guess maybe each of us struggle with decisions.
Maybe I deal with Lou better because he doesn't ask anything of me and because I'm broadly sympathetic to his line (which is probably why I don't take much interest in the meds board).
When there is psychiatry there is anti-psychiatry.
When there is a refuge there is something that it is protecting us from. But what? I remember asking for a refuge from Bob at some point. But then he fairly much seemed to have gone away and then I did miss him. Haha.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 2:20:14
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 2:11:28
sigh. i regret that.
i think one of the things about the meds board... once upon a time, at least, was that it was refreshing.
doctors get a lot of 'educational' (advertising) seminars from drug reps. they are repeatedly 'informed' about the miraculous powers of this or that or the next (under patent no generic available) wonder-cure.
side effects are down-played or unknown (unasked, when reported written off as symptoms of the disease not the purported cure).
here...
we have a refuge from that perspective. insofar as people can report their experiences. the voice of the skeptic is important. to validate that part of us that is skeptical.
uh... if i had to make a decision about what a dependent was going to do... decide whether or not my kid would or would not take this or that medication... i would surely want to hear the worst of it...
i guess... if someone told me i'd as good a given my kid a death warrant on an internet forum... it might better prepare me for handling myself okay were anyone to suggest it irl.
hear the best case for the opposing point of view... then it kind of loses its power. at the very least you can say 'i thought about it carefully... and yes, i did consider that...'
i don't know.
Posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 5:42:12
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
> This is not "about Lou," per se.
Correct. It is critical to understand this.
> It is about civility.
Correct. There need not be distinctions made between individual posters.
> exaggerations
> jumping to conclusions
> accusations
> put downs
> harassment and pressure> No one else posting presently is posting these things on nearly each thread about taking meds, changing meds, withdrawing from meds, etc. Just Lou. When he does it, he generally does one of the things I listed, or something similar every time.
Correct. However, this fact seems to be an inconvenient truth that administration struggles to avoid.
> I have reported. I don't know what on Earth you are talking about any more.
I have reported, also. No reply.
> Yes, I am interested in all the boards being refuge boards from the nasty, hardly moderated free-for-all that is found most places on the net.
Me, too. To create a separate refugee board on Psycho-Babble to protect one from Psycho-Babble is an unacceptable paradox.
> Does it take that much energy to issue some PBCs and a block if needed? I just don't understand the problem. At all.Hmm.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 6:01:10
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 5:42:12
civility...
rules...
i thought it was about supporting people. the poster came... and expressed gratitude for support received.
so... why can't posters consider that a job well done?
some people are inappropriate. i've met many. many on psych wards. and yet (for me) being hospitalized... with the innappropriate people (who accuse me of bugging their rooms and so on) is a refuge. still.
sometimes... for me, anyway, safety isn't in the absence of danger / threat... it is more in how people respond to it. whether they panic and escalate the situation... or whether they are able to remain calm, be the calm in the storm, keep the safety.
so... when i'm accused of bugging the persons room i can hear instead that the person is concerned i'm being invasive (or somebody is) or something like that... instead of my needing to run off to the nursing staff to complain about this or that person telling fibs (and needing to be punished / medicated).
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 3, 2013, at 6:04:54
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
> > exaggerations
> > jumping to conclusions
> > accusations
> > put downs
> > harassment and pressure
> >
> > This seems incredibly simple and obvious to me.
>
> Great, it's simple to notify me, too.
>
> Is anybody interested in a Refuge board?
>
> Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou. Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters. Trying to practice what I've been preaching, I've reminded myself that misgivings about Lou aren't going to go away. They need continually to be battled. It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere.
>
> BobFriends,
It is written here by the operator of this site,[...Lou has some serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs...].
Parents reading this and others, I ask for you to look at all the posts by me here on the administrative board and other boards, by reading this page and going back in the archives and see what for years is in those posts by me. And look at the videos that I offer. These videos have MDs and psychiatrists showing facts. Facts that IMHO could mark the difference between your child being a live child or a corpse. These facts are offered here by me so that you can make a more-informed decision as to if you want to drug your child or not with mind-altering chemicals that even the FDA has a black-box warning on a lot of them that the drugs can increase suicidal thinking. The PI by the drug companies states that they do not know the mechanism of action of the drugs. I do.
My friends, I have a great background is seeing children that were drugged by their parents in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor. I have studied the chemical structure of these drugs. I know the mechanism of action via the nervous system of these drugs. They do what they do and there is a predictable outcome, statistically that is, of the effects induced by the drugs.
My understanding of these chemical nerve-agents could be different from what is posted about me here. You may be swayed to think about me in a (redacted by respondent) by seeing what is posted here about me and think that it is supportive. There are historical parallels to this that I am prevented from posting here due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung.
But I want to save lives, and the lives of children, so be advised that what is posted about me here is (redacted by respondent) and will in no wise (redacted by respondent). And if readers see me as stigmatized by what is said about me here, how could that be supportive?
Here is a video that I would like interested readers to view. When the page comes up, the video could be first, but look for the number in the colored strip URL. This video shows facts about suicide from these drugs. You can make your own determination as to if I have or have not grave misgivings about these drugs. What could be grave is any false statements about me here that could influence you from accpting the facts about these drugs that IMHHHO could save lives, prevent life-ruining conditions and addictions.
Lou
To see this video, go to Google and type in:[youtube, sH4Kb41EoXc]]
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 6:26:19
In reply to Lou's response and warning-greyvmizgiv? » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou PIlder on July 3, 2013, at 6:04:54
Ah, Breggan.
Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2013, at 8:49:57
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
Precisely.
Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2013, at 9:09:28
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
> Great, it's simple to notify me, too.
If I don't have as many outstanding notifications as some, it's merely because of learned helplessness.
> Is anybody interested in a Refuge board?
I agree with Scott on this one. It would hardly address my major concern, which is newcomers to the board. I figure any of us who continue to post under current conditions realize what we're risking. Notice I don't post much anymore about anything personal? But newcomers don't realize what they are risking. I'd rather see a Lou board than a refuge board.
I have wondered whether it might be helpful for people to post immediately if they see a post from Lou that might be upsetting to someone who doesn't understand him. They could put in the subject line a request that the originating poster read this post before Lou's, and then explain something about Lou. Nothing derogatory. Just the information that Lou believes he has been sent to Babble by The Rider on the White Horse to save people from evil psychiatric medications, that Dr. Bob has chosen to allow him to post freely, and that it's probably best to consider his mission before a poster chooses to open the post, or keeps it in mind when interpreting his post. And perhaps a reminder that this is, after all, a mental health board.
If it's too much trouble for you to administrate the board you originated and support, and over which you have gotten a great deal of publicity, oh brilliant and reticent web mastermind.
> Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou. Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters. Trying to practice what I've been preaching, I've reminded myself that misgivings about Lou aren't going to go away. They need continually to be battled. It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere.
>
> BobI'm dreadfully sorry you resent us. Do you think the resentment is to do with our actual behavior? Or might it have something to do with your hopes and expectations of us? Your web mastermind seems to have a brilliant new scheme of how Babble should be run. Could you be feeling some resentment that we aren't embracing the change in its entirety? Would it help to remember that while parts of your new ideas aren't working badly, given the new size and makeup of Babble, your idea does need some tweaking?
Surely a mastermind understands that even the most brilliant of plans need to be adjusted from time to time. Perhaps you could consider adjusting yours to address this ongoing situation of exaggerations and accusations that lead to escalating anger and accusations in turn.
It certainly is honest of you to admit your resentment... My therapist would likely have reframed it as frustration.
Posted by Dinah on July 3, 2013, at 9:26:30
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
To practice what I preach, I'll add that my anger with you has to do with the fact that I liked Babble with administration, that that was the Babble I chose to remain with, and that my expectations of you is that you will be willing to administrate. Even though you show me over and over that my expectations are unreasonable, and that I am banging my head against a brick wall, when I see your name on a thread I can't help but hope. And the hope leads to my anger at your responses.
And specifically in this situation, I don't think a poster saying they have decided to stay at Babble because they find more help than hindrance a win. Particularly since this poster has also shared that they suffered a panic attack at what was written. I don't consider it a win to have your board give someone a panic attack when they're looking for help. This poster decided to stay. I'll bet a fair number decide not to, or decide not to post based on what's all over the board. I wouldn't. I also don't consider it a win for there to be continuing board disruption.
I don't resent you, though. How lowering to be resented...
Posted by Willful on July 3, 2013, at 10:36:17
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
;;;; It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere....
>
> Bob
Yet you seem not to grasp how much energy it takes for those of us here to "battle" Lou's insistence on riding to the "rescue" of every new poster on psychobabble who asks about new meds, or a change of meds, or worse yet, frustration with meds.I personally am ***** (redacted by respondent) weary of reading Lou's posts and summoning the patience and swallowing the annoyance of trying yet again to engage with them, to be cool in the face of them, to answer some of his picaresque assertions-- so that perhaps yet another new poster win out and be "strong" enough to hang on, and possibly be a new member of our community.
Because YES, I WOULD like new members to join our community. I would like psychobabble to continue to exist-- to be a part of the conversation-- for us to try to support and give as much info to those who find themselves here as we can.
I did not sign up to struggle daily with Lou-as-Poster's misinformation, distortions, exaggerations, threats, warnings, and mischaracterizations of those who use and who prescribe meds.
We all want psychobabble to be a supportive, thoughtful, flexible community. Flexible is one thing-- but extremists threaten that-- and all of those things-- while the conversation is poisoned by their interventions.
Lou-as-Poster may seem himself as some sort of martyred avatar of the true religion and the Right Way-- but I don't want him saving me or anyone else.
Is it about Lou or Lou's posts? I don't even care. Yes, I would say theoretically it's not about Lou the person, but Lou-as-Poster-- about a voice that has become ever more vituperative and insulting to those who critique its approach and claims.
Do you read that voice's posts carefully, studying its assertions, with the sense that you need to pin them down, answer them, to find and to quote yet another study, to search down elusive (or nonexistent) information, and to reach out to the last object of its ministrations? Do you feel a burden of trying to go through the same old debate, iteration after iteration. Do you feel a sense of weariness and dread asits name appears yet again in a thread?
I note your posts like to be pithy, and witty, and to raise yet another "profound" question as if from outside, while we mortals continue the old struggle.. You say it exhausts you? Well this all exhausts me. And bores me, and feels like being stuck. And being stuck is the one of the worst thing you can feel in therapy or life.
Willful
Posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 12:00:04
In reply to Re: 'real' life vs a refuge, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:09:16
I hope this isn't a diversion, but I am confused about in which direction Babble is going. For years many of us tried to get Bob to loosen the rules. It led to a more self-regulated Babble, at least in my distant observation. Now it seems that we are talking about rules again. When a poster offends or hurts another poster it seems that many people here quickly support the injured party and others confront the offender. Perhaps I have been a little direct in the criticism I have given Lou of late. We know each other for years and I'd like to think we have a kind of respect for each other. I'm pretty sure we both understand by now that we won't change each other. I guess I am trying to say that I still like the changes in Babble, and how we collectively deal with problems with only slight oversight by Bob. I think this thread is a good example of a community trying to work through the tension of free expression and restraint, individuality and community, autonomy and supervision.
Posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 12:52:29
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Willful on July 3, 2013, at 10:36:17
>>I note your posts like to be pithy, and witty, and to raise yet another "profound" question as if from outside, while we mortals continue the old struggle.. You say it exhausts you? Well this all exhausts me. And bores me, and feels like being stuck. And being stuck is the one of the worst thing you can feel in therapy or life.
Beautifully said. Thank you for your authentic and articulate post.
Posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 13:39:27
In reply to Re: 'real' life vs a refuge, posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 12:00:04
> Now it seems that we are talking about rules again.
I don't recall a group consensus conceptualizing moderation as being an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't think very many people were lobbying for a complete cessation of moderation. I wasn't.
> I guess I am trying to say that I still like the changes in Babble, and how we collectively deal with problems with only slight oversight by Bob.
What would "slight oversight" look like? Would it include posting blocks?
Is there currently any posting activity that you feel should require oversight? If not, could you give an example of what type of activity would require oversight?
Personally, I like the idea of having posting blocks available as a tool for moderation. My major complaints in the past had been that diction and grammar were scrutinized too closely and that blocks were excessively long.
- Scott
Posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 17:07:30
In reply to Oversight. » Toph, posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 13:39:27
I am not a regular poster here anymore sadly, so I don't feel competent to give you the details you request. One specific I am familiar with is obtaining restraining orders at work for my clients who are harassed by others. It seems to me that regardless of intention Lou often harasses posters who seek advice regarding psychotropic medication with his strident beliefs about these meds. His associations between parents treating children and infanticide is agregiously hurtful. Orders of Protection in my world last 4 years and unfortunately have limited effect in protecting victims from people with little regard for the law. Blocks have been effective here when used judiciously, consistently and as a last resort. I would hope that there would be means of involving the community in this process though I'm afraid I can't offer a suitable model off the top of my head.
Posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 17:21:48
In reply to Re: Oversight., posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 17:07:30
Thanks, Toph. I value your insights and experience.
- Scott---------------------------------------------
> I am not a regular poster here anymore sadly, so I don't feel competent to give you the details you request. One specific I am familiar with is obtaining restraining orders at work for my clients who are harassed by others. It seems to me that regardless of intention Lou often harasses posters who seek advice regarding psychotropic medication with his strident beliefs about these meds. His associations between parents treating children and infanticide is agregiously hurtful. Orders of Protection in my world last 4 years and unfortunately have limited effect in protecting victims from people with little regard for the law. Blocks have been effective here when used judiciously, consistently and as a last resort. I would hope that there would be means of involving the community in this process though I'm afraid I can't offer a suitable model off the top of my head.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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