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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 44 to 68 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on July 2, 2013, at 13:37:22
In reply to Re: It has gone far beyond theoretical now » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 13:31:10
Amen.
(Thank you for keeping your cool far better than I did. If there's any chance whatsoever he'll understand, your way works better.)
Posted by Twinleaf on July 2, 2013, at 14:38:46
In reply to Re: It is still somewhat theorectical, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 12:13:57
I do not see any winners at all in this situation. Lou, old posters, newer posters, those who do not post because of the lack of safety and Dr. Bob all appear to be losing something which once meant a lot.
PBCs will probably not alter this situation too much, but they will provide a way to reassertion the values and ethical standards of this site, and can eventually be backed up with short blocks if necessary. That is really needed now. It's just a mess the way it is.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 15:11:39
In reply to Re: It is still somewhat theorectical » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on July 2, 2013, at 14:38:46
> What win was that? I don't really see a win.
>
> Dinah> I do not see any winners at all in this situation.
>
> TwinleafAm I the only one who sees it?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:09:16
In reply to Re: It has gone far beyond theoretical now » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 13:31:10
> Okay, so you are trying to make some analogy between a psychiatrist/patient relationship and the relationship between you as an administrator and all the posters of Babble, correct?
>
> I just don't get it. ... The analogy does not work for me.> How is this response by you helpful? It is always all so obfuscated when you do this. Can't you speak plainly? It is so very, very unhelpful in my opinion. ... We just want an open, welcome environment without put downs, accusations and insensitive rants. People *know* "real" life is not that way and they will have to cope without a pdoc or anyone else "making the problem go away." It is HARD. But do you really want them to completely have to do this here, under the strain of THIS kind of posting? Does PB have to be an exact replica of real life? I hope not.
That's the idea. Both are hard. If posters find they have the strength to do it here, they may find they have the strength to do it in real life.
And Babble isn't an *exact* replica. It's safer, and there's more support.
> Lou posts more and more accusations ... and yet on you go, oblivious to being accused personally of all kinds of things that are profoundly uncivil, and allowing your former deputies and more importantly, innocent, vulnerable posters to be accused of hatred
I don't read all of Lou's posts. That's one of my coping mechanisms. But if someone else thinks he's being uncivil -- and they notify me, using the notification system -- then I do read those posts.
> I used to come here for refuge.
>
> You set up civility rules, and those very parameters drew some of us here, or at least kept us long term because of the prohibitions on bullying and the safety aspect.You make a good point, a refuge may help people find strength, too. Maybe Babble doesn't have to be either-or. What about a new Refuge board? Would it be enough to enforce civility the way I used to? Or would it also need to be considered uncivil, for example, to post something that might scare other posters?
> I would appreciate it if you would not change my subject lines, either. I get more than enough of this here. You can state your thoughts in the body of the post, can't you?
>
> 10derheartI could. But I like having the freedom to express myself in the subject line, too.
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2013, at 16:29:00
In reply to Lou's response and warning to readers-scheym, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2013, at 12:54:41
You are not "prevented from posting" what you wish to say. Is someone physically restraining you? Is your Internet down? Are you being kept away from your computer against your will? No, you are not prevented from posting your perspective here. Rather, you are CHOOSING not to accept the stated consequences of violating the community guidelines. You can post whatever you wish. And the community and/or the administrator can also choose their response.
Actions have consequences. That's life. So make your choice, deal with the consequences, and for Pete's sake, please don't whine about it!
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
In reply to Re: Lou's response and warning to readers-scheym, posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2013, at 16:29:00
> Mr Hsiung and his deputy are allowing defamation to be heaped upon me
>
> Lou Pilder> So make your choice, deal with the consequences, and for Pete's sake, please don't whine about it!
>
> gardenergirlPlease don't post anything that could lead others (including me or my deputy) to feel accused or put down.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2013, at 16:59:47
In reply to Re: Lou's response and warning to readers-scheym, posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2013, at 16:29:00
> You are not "prevented from posting" what you wish to say. Is someone physically restraining you? Is your Internet down? Are you being kept away from your computer against your will? No, you are not prevented from posting your perspective here. Rather, you are CHOOSING not to accept the stated consequences of violating the community guidelines. You can post whatever you wish. And the community and/or the administrator can also choose their response.
>
> Actions have consequences. That's life. So make your choice, deal with the consequences, and for Pete's sake, please don't whine about it!Friends,
"Prevented from posting" is part of what is in question. The whole statement involves more than that. You see I am prevented from posting as in one example, the foundation of Judaism as revealed to me, {due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung}. I am prevented from posting such IF I ABIDE BY THE PROHIBITION. Sure, I could not abide by the prohibition, but it is against the rules to not abide by them. I am trying the best that I can as a human being to abide by all the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung. And if I somehow make a mistake, I post an apology. This applies to me even if all the members are allowed to break Mr Hsiung' rules here, for I will attempt to my best to honor his wishes for Mr Hsiung states that members are to be civil at all times, even if he allows hatred toward the Jews to stand, even if he allows defamation to be posted here toward me. Even if one calls me The Prince of Death.
And you parents following this can go to the administrative board and see years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to Mr Hsiung. Years that if they were responded to, it is my great conviction that the members here that were killed by the drugs would still be alive. And how many more deaths will it take before I am allowed to be free to post from the Jewish perspective as revealed to me? And how many more years will hatred toward the Jews be allowed to stand? Allowed to stand to poison the minds of readers to hate, as they can think that hatred toward the Jews is supportive.
Allowing now members to bash me over and over now, does not annul the fact that years gone by I had tried so hard to get the requests responded to, but it was only a dream. Members posted that I have some evil scheme. There was a time when we were not so far apart. Why can't I free your doubtful minds, and melt your cold, cold hearts.
Lou
Posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2013, at 17:10:15
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » gardenergirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
Posted by Twinleaf on July 2, 2013, at 18:57:23
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » gardenergirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
Posted by Emme_V2 on July 2, 2013, at 19:09:00
In reply to Re: It is still somewhat theorectical » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on July 2, 2013, at 14:38:46
A few semi-random thoughts on my part:
Internet forums are generally established for a purpose - usually sharing information and support regardless of the topic (medical, music, photography, software, whatever).
A moderator manages the forum as best they can in such a way that it achieves its stated function as smoothly as possible and keeps some reasonable degree of order.
Psychobabble is an internet forum not unlike many others in that we share information and support on a particular albeit broad topic (various aspects of management of psychiatric illnesses.) Like other forums, a sense of community can develop.
The overall goal of this forum is not to represent some real or imaginary aspect of real life, nor is it to conduct specific experiments on us, or emulate a psychiatrist/patient relationship or therapist/client relationship.
Rules exist on internet forums to help them run smoothly. The moderator generally applies those rules as needed - hopefully as consistently as they are able without being draconian.
Psychobabble is experiencing difficulties right now. Rules exist on this board that would likely help the situation were they applied.
I agree with one of the other posters that blocking should be a last resort and that doubling blocking times isn't the best approach. But issuing of PBCs and ultimately short blocks if necessary may be considered.
Posted by Emme_V2 on July 2, 2013, at 19:44:00
In reply to Re: It is gone far beyond theorectical now, Dr. Bob » Emme_V2, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 12:52:25
> >>As Scott said, he's not here to play games. This board was not founded for the purposes of verbal hockey. I believe much of this could be alleviated if the site guidelines against exaggeration and over-generalization were applied. These guidelines already exist, they have already been enforced in the past, and they make sense.
>
> So well and succinctly put it deserves to be reposted :-)
>
> Bless you, Emme.
Aww....Thanks! :)
Posted by SLS on July 2, 2013, at 19:46:44
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » gardenergirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
I, too, was hoping for a community that was exclusively self-moderating. I think it has been, for the most part, with few exceptions. Unfortunately, such exceptions, if left unchecked, can cause a forum to degenerate rather quickly. Your experiment has demonstrated this. So, now you know. You also know how resilient people can be. However, everyone has his limits - even those who would act as caretakers. I don't think that black-or-white thinking will work here. The social dynamics are too complex.
Perhaps you can "titrate" your level of intervention gradually?
- Scott
------------------------------------
> > Mr Hsiung and his deputy are allowing defamation to be heaped upon me
> >
> > Lou Pilder
>
> > So make your choice, deal with the consequences, and for Pete's sake, please don't whine about it!
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me or my deputy) to feel accused or put down.
>
> More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2013, at 19:49:32
In reply to Lou's reply-koldkoldhartz » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2013, at 16:59:47
You don't control me. Fact of life. My life that is can't speak for others
Posted by gardenergirl on July 2, 2013, at 19:52:24
In reply to Thouhgts on Moderating Internet Forums, posted by Emme_V2 on July 2, 2013, at 19:09:00
Posted by SLS on July 2, 2013, at 20:11:04
In reply to Lou's reply-koldkoldhartz » gardenergirl, posted by Lou Pilder on July 2, 2013, at 16:59:47
> Allowing now members to bash me over and over now,
How do you define the word "bashing"?
So that you may be properly understood, can you cite examples of the bashing that you feel has been directed towards you?
Can you find any references to you by name that are not examples of bashing?
- Scott
Posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
In reply to Re: please be civil » Lou Pilder » gardenergirl, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:56:42
Right.
Thanks for the tiny crumb, after you had to be begged to do something.
It's funny how you either just randomly pick, or purposely pick one of the more benign accusations. This has been a pattern before. This speaks volumes after ignoring outrageous incivility about all the things I already listed for you. In fact, it confirms the priority you have about certain things being said to certain people here. Whatever.
If people in a community repeatedly notify you about the same problem, again and again, do you think you might want to read more of those posts so you could get a feel for what the hell we are trying to show you?
I don't want Lou silenced, blocked, or stifled. I *want* him to continue to speak out against psych drugs till the end of time if he likes. That's free speech. That belongs here.
I do not want Lou or anyone to NOT "scare people"....whether fear is a poster's reaction is about them, not so much Lou. It's all in the WAY IT IS PRESENTED. Do you remember not accusing, not exaggerating, and being sensitive? These were YOUR ideas, and ideals, I thought :-(
Do you not see the difference between:
"I could save you parents from giving your children poison (hint, hint, like that used by some group I can't mention anymore in history to murder Jewish children - hint, hint) and from life-ruining harm and damage that could make your children mass murderers and make them kill themselves"
AND
"I have serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs. I truly believe they alter and damage the mind and are dangerous. I don't want one more person, especially children, whose brains are likely more vulnerable, to be damaged by pills when there is another way to help them. I believe, based on {Insert link to evidence here] that medications are not the way to go and I am dedicated to saving lives here...""
~~~etc. etc and however else Lou wants to express himself as long as it is not filled with:
exaggerations
jumping to conclusions
accusations
put downs
harassment and pressure
This seems incredibly simple and obvious to me.
Posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:39:02
In reply to expressing myself » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
I do believe that *rule* left the building long ago.
Posted by Phillipa on July 2, 2013, at 22:39:20
In reply to expressing myself » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
Worded perfectly Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
In reply to expressing myself » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 2, 2013, at 20:37:15
> exaggerations
> jumping to conclusions
> accusations
> put downs
> harassment and pressure
>
> This seems incredibly simple and obvious to me.Great, it's simple to notify me, too.
Is anybody interested in a Refuge board?
Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou. Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters. Trying to practice what I've been preaching, I've reminded myself that misgivings about Lou aren't going to go away. They need continually to be battled. It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere.
Bob
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 2, 2013, at 23:44:05
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
I would love a refugee board.
Tom Petty says, "you don't have to live like a refugee.", but I like the idea.
What are we fleeing?
Posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 23:32:50
You are speaking in flipping riddles still. It's maddening.
This is not "about Lou," per se. It is about civility. No one else posting presently is posting these things on nearly each thread about taking meds, changing meds, withdrawing from meds, etc. Just Lou. When he does it, he generally does one of the things I listed, or something similar every time.
I have reported. I don't know what on Earth you are talking about any more.
Yes, I am interested in all the boards being refuge boards from the nasty, hardly moderated free-for-all that is found most places on the net.
Does it take that much energy to issue some PBCs and a block if needed? I just don't understand the problem. At all.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 2:11:28
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
> Does it take that much energy to issue some PBCs and a block if needed? I just don't understand the problem. At all.Well... I could be off, but I think his thought was that laurah learned that she was stronger than she thought and she expressed gratitude for support she had received. Which seemed like a win. And so it was unclear why a block was needed or what it would achieve. Because the poster got the support they were seeking.
I wonder about Lou... I'm not sure if this is civil or not but I'm trying my best to genuinely understand... At one point I wondered if he had Tourette's with repetitive verbal outbursts. I'm not sure how that would manifest verbally... In print... But there were aspects to his posts that got me thinking of that. Perseveration. Then I wondered if he was delusional. Persecutory delusions. That he believed he was currently the victim of anti-semitism here (there and most probably everywhere). Then Tourette's again... Obsessions... Compulsive posting behavior with requests every 5 minutes...
A label is not an explanation.
I firmly believe. Which is why I struggle with these thoughts. Because I believe they do Lou a serious dis-service. There must be a way of conceptualizing without labeling... The above description doesn't sit well with me at all...
But what I mean is... I bet Lou has a hard time of it with people not really understanding things... Where he is coming from...
I don't know whether he is on medication or not... One lady I know... Her son had been diagnosed with Schizophrenia and he didn't want to take his meds and... She ended up saying ok. For about a year she put up with kicked holes in walls and all kinds of weird behavior. Other people accused her of all kinds of things. Not least of which was abuse. I guess parents struggle with decisions either way... I guess maybe each of us struggle with decisions.
Maybe I deal with Lou better because he doesn't ask anything of me and because I'm broadly sympathetic to his line (which is probably why I don't take much interest in the meds board).
When there is psychiatry there is anti-psychiatry.
When there is a refuge there is something that it is protecting us from. But what? I remember asking for a refuge from Bob at some point. But then he fairly much seemed to have gone away and then I did miss him. Haha.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 2:20:14
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 2:11:28
sigh. i regret that.
i think one of the things about the meds board... once upon a time, at least, was that it was refreshing.
doctors get a lot of 'educational' (advertising) seminars from drug reps. they are repeatedly 'informed' about the miraculous powers of this or that or the next (under patent no generic available) wonder-cure.
side effects are down-played or unknown (unasked, when reported written off as symptoms of the disease not the purported cure).
here...
we have a refuge from that perspective. insofar as people can report their experiences. the voice of the skeptic is important. to validate that part of us that is skeptical.
uh... if i had to make a decision about what a dependent was going to do... decide whether or not my kid would or would not take this or that medication... i would surely want to hear the worst of it...
i guess... if someone told me i'd as good a given my kid a death warrant on an internet forum... it might better prepare me for handling myself okay were anyone to suggest it irl.
hear the best case for the opposing point of view... then it kind of loses its power. at the very least you can say 'i thought about it carefully... and yes, i did consider that...'
i don't know.
Posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 5:42:12
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 1:42:13
> This is not "about Lou," per se.
Correct. It is critical to understand this.
> It is about civility.
Correct. There need not be distinctions made between individual posters.
> exaggerations
> jumping to conclusions
> accusations
> put downs
> harassment and pressure> No one else posting presently is posting these things on nearly each thread about taking meds, changing meds, withdrawing from meds, etc. Just Lou. When he does it, he generally does one of the things I listed, or something similar every time.
Correct. However, this fact seems to be an inconvenient truth that administration struggles to avoid.
> I have reported. I don't know what on Earth you are talking about any more.
I have reported, also. No reply.
> Yes, I am interested in all the boards being refuge boards from the nasty, hardly moderated free-for-all that is found most places on the net.
Me, too. To create a separate refugee board on Psycho-Babble to protect one from Psycho-Babble is an unacceptable paradox.
> Does it take that much energy to issue some PBCs and a block if needed? I just don't understand the problem. At all.Hmm.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on July 3, 2013, at 6:01:10
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 5:42:12
civility...
rules...
i thought it was about supporting people. the poster came... and expressed gratitude for support received.
so... why can't posters consider that a job well done?
some people are inappropriate. i've met many. many on psych wards. and yet (for me) being hospitalized... with the innappropriate people (who accuse me of bugging their rooms and so on) is a refuge. still.
sometimes... for me, anyway, safety isn't in the absence of danger / threat... it is more in how people respond to it. whether they panic and escalate the situation... or whether they are able to remain calm, be the calm in the storm, keep the safety.
so... when i'm accused of bugging the persons room i can hear instead that the person is concerned i'm being invasive (or somebody is) or something like that... instead of my needing to run off to the nursing staff to complain about this or that person telling fibs (and needing to be punished / medicated).
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
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