![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 76 to 100 of 123. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:37:53
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
As I said to Phillipa, my intervention just brings along more of the same sort of post. I find that very frustrating, since I am responsible for causing Phillipa additional pain.
I'm sure you'll understand why I don't reply any further to posts that contain negative comments about Phillipa or any other individual babbler.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:41:31
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
However, I don't hold you responsible for my decision.
What you do is what you do. What I do in response in my own responsibility.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:08:36
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
> I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
Of course, it not infrequently happens that a dog is driven away from a pack without fences. That may be seen as a very good thing by the pack. Occasionally a dog will even be seriously injured before it limps, bleeding, away. Or worse.
Funny thing is that the kids from middle school would have said the same thing. I exhibited behavior that was objectionable to them. They savaged me right out of their pack to another school.
You think of this as a *good* thing? We truly see things from different points of view. It's hard for me to believe that this is Bob's new vision of Babble.
Posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:17:35
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:08:36
to one of my posts....
It better as h*ll be negative about ME.
You got something to say, you say it about ME.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2011, at 15:49:42
In reply to Re: public forum )) gardenergirl, posted by Maxime on January 4, 2011, at 22:52:44
> HA! I found something even better that I can examine in a petri dish. Mario!! I found this on a site http://kotaku.com/5429450/mario-recreated-in-petri-dish
>
> Beat that GG! :pThat's awesome!!!!!
Posted by gardenergirl on January 5, 2011, at 15:52:22
In reply to If anyone has anything negative to say in response, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:17:35
Dinah,
I'm sorry you're hurting so much. And I'm just in awe of your fierce support. You matter, my friend.gg
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 16:05:33
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 15:08:36
> > I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
>
> Of course, it not infrequently happens that a dog is driven away from a pack without fences. That may be seen as a very good thing by the pack. Occasionally a dog will even be seriously injured before it limps, bleeding, away. Or worse.You're right - that aspect can certainly exist - but that's not what I was thinking of. Of course with Cesar, he's always there to prevent that kind of thing from developing. Maybe that's why closer moderation here is important.
> Funny thing is that the kids from middle school would have said the same thing. I exhibited behavior that was objectionable to them. They savaged me right out of their pack to another school.And that's horrible. I did not mean to imply that ANYone should be treated that way. Legitimately objectionable behavior can be rejected, without rejecting the person. When I say 'objectionable behavior,' I'm talking about behavior that is causing harm to others.
> You think of this as a *good* thing?Absolutely not.. and I'm sad that it has sounded like that to you.
> We truly see things from different points of view.Not necessarily.. because I don't think my point of view is accurately understood. I regret that.
> It's hard for me to believe that this is Bob's new vision of Babble.It might not be fair to yourself to draw conclusions right now about Bob's vision for Babble.
Solstice
Posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 17:47:31
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » SLS, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:12:08
> I could possibly work for years to come to the point where I don't expect myself to have the power to achieve anything.
Isn't this black-or-white, all-or-nothing thinking?
I probably didn't word my post properly. I wasn't suggesting that you have no power. I was just suggesting that you don't have power over everything. It is also abundantly clear to me that you don't appreciate the power that you do have. You have influenced my thinking on more than one occasion. That's true power. Perhaps there is a control thing going on. Perhaps it is perfectionism. Whatever it is, it is not fair to you that you should assume so much responsibility over the workings of the entire Universe. It really is self-defeating. To raise your expectations of yourself to accomplish things that are beyond your potential (to control) is to become (feel) powerless.
The measure of achievement lies not in how high the mountain, but in how hard the climb.The measure of success lies only in how high one feels he must climb to get there.
- Scott
Posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:20:30
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » SLS, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 14:12:08
Dinah, I think you have properly addressed the thread with your rules of internet etiquette. I feel you are fair, compassionate and have heart bigger than your body can hold. You are a stable force here and I, as well as the majority of the members here, would feel a great loss if we didn't see your insightful and supportive posts. I don't feel you have done anything that should bring doubt to your mind as your motives are pure and honest. :)
Posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:29:09
In reply to Re: What can I do?, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 14:33:55
> > I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
I am not trying to defend or accuse anyone; just making an observation. Interesting analogy with dogs. I have seen many documentaries on pack behavior where they hunt together and single out the weak or sick to attack. The eating of newborns is also a common occurrence. There are no morals or conscience; only survival of the fittest in the pack or in another pack. I am not sure this primal training method is applicable in a civilized world. I thought this was a board geared for support of MI and folks with problems??
Posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
In reply to Re: Phillipa - Say it ain't so. » violette, posted by Maxime on January 4, 2011, at 23:38:03
> Again, I would like echo what Violette wrote. I have no desire to bully you Phillipa, or anyone else on PB. My only concern is the storing and dissemination of personal information.
> Yes, but you don't share the information with others. I don't find it creepy at all.You don't start gossip in Babblemail. You don't have someone approaching new members telling them to careful of you because go after men on the board. You don't have someone saying that you are lesbian to other members, even if it's not true.
If what you said is accurate, then the first sentence is adequate. The remainder has no factual evidence that I am aware of and has NOTHING to do with your original post. I see that by following the guidelines the INTENT is harmful and made to provide fuel for another lively discussion at Phillipa's expense. This IMO could be an example of passive-aggressive behavior.As violette said," I think bullying is singling out a person for just being themselves, someone who just going about their business, not harming others. People are just trying to prevent harm to themselves here, is all"
I think there is more than just self-preservation in the accusations.
Posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:42:59
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information, posted by Dinah on January 5, 2011, at 10:22:28
> But I'd advise you to be wise. I wouldn't tell you to trust no one. There are a handful of people I trust, and one or two I trust completely. But for the most part, remember that any information you send to others can and possibly will be sent by them to others. If they send you information, don't pass it on. If you send them information, assume it will be passed on and interpreted in whatever ways the sender wishes. It will probably not be sent on in context. It's ok to engage in the activity of talking about others. You'd be a singular person if your discussions were never about acquaintances. But try not to say anything that you wouldn't want plastered on Babble or on the front page of the NY Times. Be kind. Be discreet.
>
> That's advice I'd give to EVERYONE.That is very good advice. I would like to add that if you are using Babblemail to gossip about others, chances are that the content of the Babble Mail will be forwarded to person in question. I have received many a Babble Mail where gossip about me, was sent to me by the person who received it. It hurts.
Posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:48:11
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
> > Yes, but you don't share the information with others. I don't find it creepy at all.You don't start gossip in Babblemail. You don't have someone approaching new members telling them to careful of you because go after men on the board. You don't have someone saying that you are lesbian to other members, even if it's not true.
>
>
> If what you said is accurate, then the first sentence is adequate. The remainder has no factual evidence that I am aware of and has NOTHING to do with your original post. I see that by following the guidelines the INTENT is harmful and made to provide fuel for another lively discussion at Phillipa's expense. This IMO could be an example of passive-aggressive behavior.
>
I still have the Babblemails in question ...that's a fact.
Posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:54:24
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
I will no longer be posting in this thread. I think that everything that had to be said was said. I don't want to continue harming anyone.
I don't know if you noticed my post to Phillipa
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/975905.html
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 23:07:40
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, I'm sorry » Dinah, posted by SLS on January 5, 2011, at 17:47:31
Amen!
Solstice
> > I could possibly work for years to come to the point where I don't expect myself to have the power to achieve anything.
>
> Isn't this black-or-white, all-or-nothing thinking?
>
> I probably didn't word my post properly. I wasn't suggesting that you have no power. I was just suggesting that you don't have power over everything. It is also abundantly clear to me that you don't appreciate the power that you do have. You have influenced my thinking on more than one occasion. That's true power. Perhaps there is a control thing going on. Perhaps it is perfectionism. Whatever it is, it is not fair to you that you should assume so much responsibility over the workings of the entire Universe. It really is self-defeating. To raise your expectations of yourself to accomplish things that are beyond your potential (to control) is to become (feel) powerless.
>
>
> The measure of achievement lies not in how high the mountain, but in how hard the climb.
>
> The measure of success lies only in how high one feels he must climb to get there.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 23:18:55
In reply to Dogs? » Solstice, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:29:09
> > > I can't help but think of Ceasar (Dog Whisperer) and his technique of how dogs handle unruly members of the pack. The dog isn't banished - but the rest of the pack will make it unbearable enough for the unruly dog that he/she eventually learns to manage their behavior in order to co-exist within the pack. The social pressure (and disruption) goes away when the objectionable behavior goes away.
>
> I am not trying to defend or accuse anyone; just making an observation. Interesting analogy with dogs. I have seen many documentaries on pack behavior where they hunt together and single out the weak or sick to attack. The eating of newborns is also a common occurrence. There are no morals or conscience; only survival of the fittest in the pack or in another pack. I am not sure this primal training method is applicable in a civilized world. I thought this was a board geared for support of MI and folks with problems??ou812 - Don't you think you might be taking the analogy far outside of what my intent was? I was using it in a very limited and specific way. I used it because in another thread, Muffled used it to describe the correlation between how a new dog coming to the dog park behaves, and how someone new to the Babble community should behave. Do you honestly believe, based on what I wrote, that I think that human communites and packs of animals are exactly alike, across-the-board? That's silly. I can't imagine how on earth you would draw that kind of a conclusion.
Solstice.
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 23:26:56
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
> If what you said is accurate, then the first sentence is adequate. The remainder has no factual evidence that I am aware of and has NOTHING to do with your original post. I see that by following the guidelines the INTENT is harmful and made to provide fuel for another lively discussion at Phillipa's expense. This IMO could be an example of passive-aggressive behavior.Are you calling Maxime, who you are responding to here, passive-aggressive?
> As violette said," I think bullying is singling out a person for just being themselves, someone who just going about their business, not harming others. People are just trying to prevent harm to themselves here, is all"
>
> I think there is more than just self-preservation in the accusations.And in your accusations?
Solstice
Posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 23:30:50
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information » Dinah, posted by Maxime on January 5, 2011, at 19:42:59
> That is very good advice. I would like to add that if you are using Babblemail to gossip about others, chances are that the content of the Babble Mail will be forwarded to person in question. I have received many a Babble Mail where gossip about me, was sent to me by the person who received it. It hurts.Maxime - I hope you have saved that stuff and will use it to make your case with Bob. There's nothing that speaks louder than factual evidence.
Solstice
Posted by Willful on January 6, 2011, at 0:01:02
In reply to True meaning, posted by ou812 on January 5, 2011, at 19:36:36
To ou812: I've having trouble evaluating the basis for your statements about this board, a place where you seem not to have posted before, but where you say you have been "lurking for years" and about which you are now --also after having visited many other forums--thinking of writing an article on cyber-bullying. First of all, you don't give any basis in fact-- which ask for from others--for your claims of lurking, your familiarity with many other boards, or your expertise in cyber-bullying.
Your analysis of this board as having "Borderline/ Paranoid /Passive-Aggressive" qualities isn't very meaningful either as this board is not a person and doesn't have a psychology such as what you could ascribe to individuals. At least you would need some sort of discussion to show that that was a valid type of analysis before trying to offering it as some sort of independent view.
I don't see any evidence for your statements-- yet you seem to know quite a bit about individuals here. Why have you chosen suddenly after presumably noting other incidents of this type for years without being moved to post,, to post in this thread and to make the judgments about us that you've made?
I wanted to point out that Dr. Bob does not have a Phd, but is a medical doctor, a fact which you would know if you were doing careful research of any kind, and which is stated on virtually every main page of this forum.
It has been said in this thread that we shouldn't trust people that we don't know or know well, and I want to reiterate that we should recognize that none of us really do know one another, and we must therefore make our own judgments of what is or is not true or important here.
I also would like to say to everyone that I certainly am thinking of Phillipa as a human being. I'm not suggesting that she's a bad person. I don't consider myself to be bullying her or wish for her to be lynched, stoned, driven from our community or destroyed. I want that to be very very clear. And I don't believe that anyone here feels that way, or is treating her with inhumanity.
Willful
Posted by Solstice on January 6, 2011, at 0:32:54
In reply to Re: True meaning, posted by Willful on January 6, 2011, at 0:01:02
I, for one, appreciate your direct and skillful confrontation of this stuff, Willful. The judgment has bothered me, too. And further, I second your sentiment about Phillipa. She is a long-term valued member of the community that has valuable contributions to make. I think everyone genuinely wants everybody to play in the sandbox nicely - but in order to do that - community accountability is important.
Solstice
> To ou812: I've having trouble evaluating the basis for your statements about this board, a place where you seem not to have posted before, but where you say you have been "lurking for years" and about which you are now --also after having visited many other forums--thinking of writing an article on cyber-bullying. First of all, you don't give any basis in fact-- which ask for from others--for your claims of lurking, your familiarity with many other boards, or your expertise in cyber-bullying.
>
> Your analysis of this board as having "Borderline/ Paranoid /Passive-Aggressive" qualities isn't very meaningful either as this board is not a person and doesn't have a psychology such as what you could ascribe to individuals. At least you would need some sort of discussion to show that that was a valid type of analysis before trying to offering it as some sort of independent view.
>
> I don't see any evidence for your statements-- yet you seem to know quite a bit about individuals here. Why have you chosen suddenly after presumably noting other incidents of this type for years without being moved to post,, to post in this thread and to make the judgments about us that you've made?
>
> I wanted to point out that Dr. Bob does not have a Phd, but is a medical doctor, a fact which you would know if you were doing careful research of any kind, and which is stated on virtually every main page of this forum.
>
> It has been said in this thread that we shouldn't trust people that we don't know or know well, and I want to reiterate that we should recognize that none of us really do know one another, and we must therefore make our own judgments of what is or is not true or important here.
>
> I also would like to say to everyone that I certainly am thinking of Phillipa as a human being. I'm not suggesting that she's a bad person. I don't consider myself to be bullying her or wish for her to be lynched, stoned, driven from our community or destroyed. I want that to be very very clear. And I don't believe that anyone here feels that way, or is treating her with inhumanity.
>
>
> Willful
Posted by Maxime on January 6, 2011, at 12:11:11
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information » Maxime, posted by Solstice on January 5, 2011, at 23:30:50
>
> > That is very good advice. I would like to add that if you are using Babblemail to gossip about others, chances are that the content of the Babble Mail will be forwarded to person in question. I have received many a Babble Mail where gossip about me, was sent to me by the person who received it. It hurts.
>
> Maxime - I hope you have saved that stuff and will use it to make your case with Bob. There's nothing that speaks louder than factual evidence.
>
> SolsticeI still have the Babble Mails. I don't know why I keep them because they are old. At the time I passed on everything to Dr. Bob.
Maxime
Posted by jane d on January 6, 2011, at 23:38:30
In reply to Re: to Phillipa - personal information » Solstice, posted by Maxime on January 6, 2011, at 12:11:11
This was a private dispute. That one party has tried to make a public one by claiming it's about general principles. It wasn't. I really thought that people would see thru that. I'm beyond disillusioned that so few did.
Does anyone else have a cow that's mysteriously sickened? Jump right in.
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 6:28:37
In reply to Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by jane d on January 6, 2011, at 23:38:30
> This was a private dispute. That one party has tried to make a public one by claiming it's about general principles. It wasn't. I really thought that people would see thru that. I'm beyond disillusioned that so few did.
>
> Does anyone else have a cow that's mysteriously sickened? Jump right in.When one of two parties has made public the alleged behaviors of the other by posting them or referring to them on the Internet, it is no longer a private matter, regardless of how desirable it might have been for the two parties to communicate privately. Here, we have one party accusing another of behavior that is deleterious to one or more people. It is not a matter of principle. It is a matter of hurt or harm.
I would not be so quick to suggest that to blame one party vindicates the other. I think this thread deserves to continue, but should perhaps become more focused on the general and less on the acts of named individuals. I don't usually use this phrase, but "it is what it is." This thread has had legs for specific reasons. I would like to know what they are. I don't believe that this is about pack mentality and bullying. I think it is more about hurt and fear.
Does anyone have the right to collect and publish information about another individual using any material found publicly on the Internet? No. However, this isn't about libel or kiddie porn. There is some serious debate over the Internet and its use as being subject to law. Is anything appearing on the Internet automatically copyrighted? These are interesting and materially important issues.
On Psycho-Babble, issues of privacy and anonymity predominate over those of legalities. For one to feel safe disclosing that they are mentally ill often depends on anonymity. I don't know whether or not there is a legal precedent to proscribe collecting words without publishing them. Let us assume for the moment that doing so is legal. Let us also assume that publishing this information is legal. Would it be desirable to discourage such behaviors when they arise on Psycho-Babble? Are acts of peer pressure desirable? Perhaps a more gentle general reminder of sorts can be issued by moderators from time to time within threads. It might even be included in the FAQs that privacy and anonymity is encouraged. I don't think it is imprudent to emphasize to the posting community the importance of privacy and why.
I have a few questions that I feel are important to answer. I offered suggestions based upon my current judgments. I doubt they are written on stone tablets somewhere.
1. Is it legal to collect and publish words that compromise the privacy and anonymity of an individual aside from libel?
2. Is it desirable to discourage such behavior using the written word as a means aside from libel?
3. Is it desirable to discourage such behavior using peer pressure as a means?
4. Is it desirable that moderators sanction an individual with posting blocks for such behavior?
5. Are posting blocks on a private website legal without sufficient due process?
Libel and due process are genuine concerns when a poster or moderator accuses an individual of a behavior whether it be legal or illegal.
I think the bottom line is that it is desirable to suggest to the community that privacy and anonymity are important to maintain in order to maintain the health and safety of Psycho-Babble. Moderators should not suggest that, or accuse any individual of a particular act, even when the words submitted by the poster are clearly libelous. This isn't a court of law.
The above suppositions indicate that posting blocks are undesirable, if not illegal.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 8:32:24
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by SLS on January 7, 2011, at 6:28:37
I do wonder why this is all being focused on one poster, though. In this very thread there have been allegations that a different poster forwarded not only information sent to them privately, but the entire private communications. There have been mentions, on this thread and others, of posters speaking off board in what would certainly seem to be a negative context of other posters. There has been mention of photos being sent to other posters. And in none of the cases I speak of was the poster responsible Phillipa.
I'm not on the receiving end of all that much gossip myself. But in my years of Babble I've received communications negative about other posters. I've received snippets of private communications. In no cases that I can recall did Phillipa do either of these things with me. The people communicating with me have been fortunate in their choice. I wouldn't dream of forwarding their communications to the party they were speaking about. Or to anyone else for that matter. I rather thought that was poor internet etiquette? Am I mistaken. Are there exemptions to the forwarding of private information rule?
I say negative things about Babblers off board. Heck, I consider that one of the functions of my civility buddies. I say things to them that I'd be blocked from here to Sunday for saying on board. I have a chance to vent feelings so that they don't explode on board. I have been fortunate in my civility buddies. None of them, to my knowledge, has passed on any information I've told them privately. In the past, perhaps the same period of time that people are referring to old posts of Phillipa, I may have been less judicious in what I've said about others. Over time I've tried to learn to be more generous of spirit. I try to grow and change. I wouldn't like to see posts from years back referring to me used as evidence that I must be guilty today of the same things.
Over the years, people have tried to tell me what negative things others were saying about me behind my back. I've asked that they not. That sort of thing isn't so unusual that I would want to destroy what relationship I have with a person by hearing gossip about what they said about me.
I'd like to ask Dr. Bob a question. If a poster sends to you copies of babblemails forwarded to them by another poster, will the poster originally forwarding those communications be sanctioned? I know it's uncivil to post private communications on board. Is it also uncivil *by board standards* to forward them to other Babblers?
I wonder, if those of us who were without sin were the only ones to cast stones, how many stones would be cast?
I wonder if Willful hasn't the right of it. Maybe the issue has more to do with the affect of the poster. I've read incidents of police abusing mentally ill patients because the affect they show seems wrong to the police. I don't know if it's true in real life, but cop shows tell us that if a person responds with the "wrong" affect to a crime, they are likely the guilty party. I've often suspected I'd be the first suspect in anything illegal that happened around me. I have OCD and an anxiety disorder. I tend to look guilty. My affect is, according to more than one mental health practitioner, flat. I don't think judging by the response of the accused is fair to those wired differently. I don't think it's fair to expect another person to react to shame and criticism with a response judged acceptable by the pack.
Scott is right. If this *must* be discussed, it oughtn't be discussed in terms of one babbler. I can tell you without doubt, both by testimony and confession, that there is more than one Babbler who says negative things about others off board. I have no basis to give testimony that Phillipa does these things. She has never done those things with me. You have been told in this thread, by Maxime, that a Babbler who is not Phillipa passes on information sent to them privately.
I don't want to hear justifications for making this about Phillipa. If the pack wants to attack anyone, I have just admitted to speaking negatively of other Babblers off board. I gossip. I haven't had my life made unbearable enough yet to stop my unruly behavior. Those of you without sin may chastise me freely. I show my soft underbelly.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/975935.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/975896.html
Posted by PartlyCloudy on January 7, 2011, at 9:35:00
In reply to Re: Truly disillusioned by this entire thread, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2011, at 8:32:24
OK, I'm not keeping quiet on this subject any longer.
Dinah, I speak for myself when I post, as I have on this particular subject. I am not speaking of pack behavior; I speak of individuals when I'm able to do so civilly, and try not to speak in conjecture. I believe that at least part of the reason this thread has taken a life of its own (or so it would seem) is because in spite of posts being reported correctly via the notification system, no timely response in any direction has been forthcoming.
In such a void, escalation is inevitably occurring. I don't characterize it as a police state treating one person as guilty because of their apparent behavior. There are real people here who have been affected by other's actions, and they are trying to make their anger, pain, and frustration heard in the most civil way possible.
pc
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