![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 24 to 48 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on November 26, 2010, at 15:41:33
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
That about sums it up. I'm impressed.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 27, 2010, at 12:26:21
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
>I am fortunate in that I had the verbal aptitude to quickly recognize the grammatical constructions and choices of diction that were consistent with the manner of speech prescribed by the doctor so that I would remain eligible to post here if I so choosed.
Definitely. Unfortunately, not everyone is as eloquent as you. Many people can't cope with the intricacies and complexities of permitted versus disallowed sentence structure. You're absolutely right Scott.
Posted by odon on November 27, 2010, at 13:15:22
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by ed_uk2010 on November 23, 2010, at 16:00:53
Ed_UK got it right the first time.It's because so many have been blocked.And this has a domino effect.Even those that are not blocked tend to post less,or stop posting.
Posted by sigismund on November 27, 2010, at 15:44:55
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 27, 2010, at 12:26:21
Dealing with this place probably comes more easily to those who were taught self expression as children.
Posted by sigismund on November 27, 2010, at 15:46:49
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by odon on November 27, 2010, at 13:15:22
>Even those that are not blocked tend to post less,or stop posting.
Most of them stopped years ago.
Posted by Free on November 27, 2010, at 16:09:19
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
>
> Although some people might find it difficult to believe, I have not experienced a recent epiphanic revelation regarding the sociological consequences of the moderation methods employed by the operator of this website. I recognized immedately the deleterious effects that were likely to ensue when the forum moderator first unveiled his system to govern speech.
>I believe you. And I feel like I understand you better now.
Who knows how much of it is my imagination...but it's all good :)
Good post, Scott. Very succinctly said.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 27, 2010, at 17:11:38
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by Free on November 27, 2010, at 16:09:19
> > And I feel like I understand you better now.
>
> Who knows how much of it is my imagination...but it's all good :)Ditto :)
Posted by morgan miller on November 27, 2010, at 23:11:01
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by Solstice on November 24, 2010, at 20:09:25
>Right now he's got a system that works for him.
I'm not so sure about that. A system that works for him is a system that works for the members of his site.
Posted by morgan miller on November 27, 2010, at 23:18:41
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 16:30:19
>I feel like I am being treated like a child.
Your feelings are shared by many I am sure, including myself.
Scott, thank you so much for started this thread and expressing your thoughts and concerns so well.
You make a great ambassador to the members of this site.
Morgan
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
> I get the feeling that too great a proportion of the activity on Psycho-Babble has become focused on the definition and enforcement of civility rather than on its presumed focus on mental illness.
> I think the control of speech here is rigid and too mechanical. Sanctions are triggered at a threshold of incivility that is too low. The evaluation of speech is compartmentalized and reduced to exercises in the strict application of grammar and diction. The length of blocks escalates too rapidly. Advisories are ubiquitous. The learning curve for the prescribed rules of civility is too steep. Some people are here for a week and then blocked from posting. The verbiage of the FAQ is too burdensome to read for new people to digest in order to post without being blocked. The posting system here is alien to most people who participate in forums elsewhere on the Internet. I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message.
>
> I feel like I am being treated like a child.> it was predictable that the methodology chosen by the moderator to apply behavioral modification so mechanistically would lead to the death of a website.
>
> Somewhere, the experiment of establishing a highly-structured governance of speech using a model of civility developed by the moderator has failed miserably. For administration to acknowledge this does not constitute capitulation. It is a path towards enlightenment.
>
> - ScottA lot of the activity here does get focused on my use of power. Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
There's anxiety about Babble dying. And maybe a wish for it to die. As if that would prove I've misused my power?
> I wonder if it some larger issue related to how the internet has changed over the years??
> it is my impression that many who are blocked, are blocked because they want to be and/or they should be
But it's been over a decade, and Babble hasn't died yet. It's a survivor. Even though it has self-destructive parts and the Internet around it has changed.
> too much energy is spent on discussing the plight of blocked posters
>
> obsidianHow can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight when the control of speech is so rigid, sanctions are triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled, and linguistics are so scrutinized?
> When god closes a door, s/he always opens a window.
>
> floatingbridgeA door may be closed here. Is a window opened?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2010, at 4:46:46
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
> > too much energy is spent on discussing the plight of blocked posters
> >
> > obsidian
>
> How can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight when the control of speech is so rigid, sanctions are triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled, and linguistics are so scrutinized?It takes so much energy *because* of all those things.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 29, 2010, at 6:07:03
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
Dr. Bob, no one is more qualified to speak for Scott then himself. Not me. Not you.
I'm speaking as a reader of this thread, and want to voice my own disappointment over the handling of this post by the administration.
>A lot of the activity here gets focused on
my use of power. Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
>
Scott spoke clearly in I statements. I feel the rephrasing to 'some of you feel the way' dilutes and even perhaps distorts the author's original intent: his feeling and experience as a long time forum member. I experience this response as fairly routine and impersonal, in addition to unhelpful. I myself am not impelled to deeper personal examination by this queru.> There's anxiety about Babble dying. And maybe a wish for it to die. As if that would prove I've misused my power?
>This reads to me as true psychbabble. If my own psychiatrist said this to me, he'd have some explaing to do. In my experience, many doctors use this table-turning forumla as a way to maintain distance. I hope this was not your intention.
> > I wonder if it some larger issue related to how the internet has changed over the years??
Yes, a good question. This reads a bit more open-minded, like you might be dropping your emotional remove to scan the vista with the author, though again, it admits no human (and therefor acceptable and understood mistake in practical vision) error on the part of the administration.
>
> But it's been over a decade, and Babble hasn't died yet. It's a survivor. Even though it has self-destructive parts and the Internet around it has changed.
>Sometimes survivors need to deeply reassess their values, veiws, and practices. Therapeutically, this reassessment is a sign of healthy behavior. Surviving is very different from thriving (or even striving).
>
> How can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight when the control
of speech is so rigid, sanctions are
triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the
length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled,
and linguistics are so scrutinized?I don't understand the use of this quote
below fits here:> > When god closes a door, s/he always
opens a window.
> >
> A door may be closed here. Is a
window opened?Dr Bob, I think many posters would love to help open a window; as it stands, much of that is up to you.
Who will open a window here? This isn't
up to the posters. Much seems up to
you, Dr. Bob. However, I am disheartened to read your response which, too me, fails to hit the mark by reading more richly and more deeply. When a civil, highly intelligent long time poster seems so coldly dispatched after taking the time to compose what I read
as a truthful heart felt letter that strikes a chord of grief in me, I only feel disappointment and unease. The poster ended on a positive note, not shutting a door; in fact he has made some great suggestions, such as investigating how
popular website/ forum.When I read between the lines, I see much more than anxiety accompanying the 'death of babble'. Grief, loss, anger. A sense of depth is complex and cuts across any lines of logic thrown up to contain it.
Respectfully,
fb
>
> Bob
Posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 7:31:21
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
>Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
Maybe there is some truth to this, maybe not. I don't think psychoanalysis is necessary or appropriate here. It is something that could just push people away. When you go see a therapist, you expect psychoanalysis, and even then it is hard to take at times. When you ask people for advice or help, you may expect psychoanalysis. When you express concerns over how a website is being run, you do not expect psychoanalysis. This almost comes off as a deflection to me.
>There's anxiety about Babble dying. And maybe a wish for it to die. As if that would prove I've misused my power?
I hope you are not saying that Scott might wish for Babble to die. Maybe a few that are current members do and maybe some that are no long here do, but I really don't think members like Scott do.
Morgan
Posted by floatingbridge on November 29, 2010, at 10:14:58
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 7:31:21
>
> I hope you are not saying that Scott might wish for Babble to die. Maybe a few that are current members do and maybe some that are no long here do, but I really don't think members Scott do.
>
> MorganThank you, Morgan. I agree. Absolutely.
Posted by hyperfocus on November 29, 2010, at 14:01:39
>This place is dying.
Changing, maybe, not dying.>I get the feeling that too great a proportion of the activity on Psycho-Babble has become focused on the definition and enforcement of civility rather than on its presumed focus on mental illness.
Yeah but activity by whom? Not Dr. Bob, surely. He hardly posts. All the activity around civility is by posters.If I had a forum and I had a rule that you can't write anything containing the letters a x and y, posters might well question the intent and motives of this rule, the consequences of this rule, together with my sanity. But it's my forum. If you don't like the rules, then, unfortunately, all I can do is show you the (virtual) door. If you write a post like "hyperfocus needs to get his brain XRAYED" what should I do?
I've never seen anybody here get sanctioned for posting about drugs or mental illness. The only time this happens is when people ask about getting drugs without a prescription or about getting non FDA-approved meds. People get blocked for two reasons:
1. Going after other posters, including Dr. Bob
2. Battling Bob on admin, which eventually leads to 1There's a lot of stuff in life you can control and a lot of stuff you can't. How Dr.Bob runs Psycho Babble falls into the 2nd category. Dr. Bob owns this sandbox and if you don't want to play by his rules then you're free to pickup your toys and leave - go to another forum or setup your own(which is not difficult to do.) But I bet pretty soon you're going to run into the same issues PB tries to address.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't find the rules of civility that difficult to understand. You can't say anything that causes anybody on PB to feel accused or put down. Fin. The focus here is supposed to be on =mutual support and education. I've never seen anybody blocked for providing support or education. You can go outside these lines but if you do you run the risk of getting sanctioned. You don't have free speech here and pleading your case on Admin is simply futile. Yeah it can be hard sometimes and require extra effort to interact in a community with these restrictions, but it's not impossible.
Every day I read a post or see a poster exhibiting behavior that makes me angry and frustrated. But I'm not allowed to go after anybody here. To me this separates the action from the poster and forces me to address the situation differently - in a positive way. Because of my social phobia my behavior in real life upsets and disturbs people and they usually treat me like if I'm the problem, not my disease, and make me feel worthless. But that isn't supposed to happen here because we are all hurting and all vulnerable. So if the rules force us to not accuse or put down anybody here in any way, I'm fine with that. It just means that problems with people need to be addressed differently. I don't see the difficulty in doing this.
Maybe the reason Dr. Bob is so inflexible with the rules is just a simple lack of time. You've got one person moderating a community of potentially thousands. So I guess he just doesn't have the time to try to see intents and motives and nuances. And so he has to strongly discourage people from straying outside the lines of civility. If people weren't afraid of getting blocked for a long time, the forum will spiral into chaos. Yeah, a lot of times Dr. Bob may make mistakes in judgment and sanction people unnecessarily and everything else he's criticized for, but he's just one person - one administrator on a forum with thousands of posters. So put yourself in his shoes. On other forums, like was mentioned in another thread, there's all kinds of nasty stuff - splintering, cliques, moderators playing favorites, trolling, harassment, bullying, people getting banned on a whim. Not saying PB is totally immune to these things, but there's no posting utopia anywhere on the net.
I'm sure people in this thread will think I'm sucking up to Dr. Bob, but that's fine. I owe a great deal to this site and I feel protective towards it. It's the only place I can come to to ask questions about meds and mental illness and try to help others. If this site blocked search engines from finding posts then I probably wouldn't have found it. So if some teenager is out there battling bullying and social phobia and depression and sees a PB post on Twitter on Facebook or whatever, then to me that's worth whatever privacy I give up here (which in 2010 isn't that much.) If somebody vulnerable comes here and sees that going after posters is not tolerated at all and decides to stick around, then that's worth whatever restrictions on free speech we have.
As much as I would like people like Larry Hoover and fayroe and jade and twinleaf and all the others to come back, I can't control what other people do. They chose to leave the community here. Nobody twisted their arm and forced them to leave. They left to prove a point or principle
The only thing I would like to see change is this infinite jeopardy system of blocking where minor infractions can lead to long blocks. But I like PB how it is and I don't want it to change much.
Posted by SLS on November 29, 2010, at 18:28:26
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2010, at 4:46:46
>
> > > too much energy is spent on discussing the plight of blocked posters
> > >
> > > obsidian
> >
> > How can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight...Because you allow it.
> ...when the control of speech is so rigid, sanctions are triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled, and linguistics are so scrutinized?
Posts critical of your moderation can still be composed in a manner that conforms to your rules of civil communication. You are therefore impelled to allow such posts if your enforcement system is to demonstrate fidelity to its constitution.
It seems to me that the time and energy being expended by many of the members of the community who are vocal in their disapproval of the current moderation paradigm demonstrates the great value these people place on the health of this website.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 29, 2010, at 18:31:31
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying. » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on November 29, 2010, at 18:28:26
Posted by Free on November 29, 2010, at 20:09:04
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
> A door may be closed here. Is a window opened?
>
> Bob
I hate to say it, Bob, but the windows are broken. And they've been broken for some time.The broken windows theory says that if a window in a building is broken and is left un-repaired, all the rest of the windows will soon be broken.
I agree with others here that the critical window to be repaired is the one that Scott identified so well. I just don't see how Babble is going to get un-stuck from the status quo without first fixing this:
"...I think the control of speech here is rigid and too mechanical. Sanctions are triggered at a threshold of incivility that is too low. The evaluation of speech is compartmentalized and reduced to exercises in the strict application of grammar and diction. The length of blocks escalates too rapidly. Advisories are ubiquitous. The learning curve for the prescribed rules of civility is too steep. Some people are here for a week and then blocked from posting. The verbiage of the FAQ is too burdensome to read for new people to digest in order to post without being blocked. The posting system here is alien to most people who participate in forums elsewhere on the Internet. I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message. I feel like I am being treated like a child." - ScottGood luck with all this...yeah, not easy.
Free
Posted by obsidian on November 29, 2010, at 21:08:56
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by hyperfocus on November 29, 2010, at 14:01:39
I agree with a lot of what you've said.
Thank you.
-sid
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2010, at 12:53:57
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » hyperfocus, posted by obsidian on November 29, 2010, at 21:08:56
I do also but some that were mentioned left to pursue a time consuming career. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 3:19:49
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying. » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on November 29, 2010, at 18:28:26
> > A lot of the activity here gets focused on my use of power. Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
>
> Scott spoke clearly in I statements. I feel the rephrasing to 'some of you feel the way' dilutes and even perhaps distorts the author's original intent: his feeling and experience as a long time forum member. I experience this response as fairly routine and impersonal, in addition to unhelpful. I myself am not impelled to deeper personal examination by this queru.
>
> fbI thought of that not as rephrasing, but as extending, what Scott said. I leave it to each poster to decide for themselves whether deeper personal examination is warranted.
--
> I owe a great deal to this site and I feel protective towards it. It's the only place I can come to to ask questions about meds and mental illness and try to help others. If this site blocked search engines from finding posts then I probably wouldn't have found it. So if some teenager is out there battling bullying and social phobia and depression and sees a PB post on Twitter on Facebook or whatever, then to me that's worth whatever privacy I give up here (which in 2010 isn't that much.) If somebody vulnerable comes here and sees that going after posters is not tolerated at all and decides to stick around, then that's worth whatever restrictions on free speech we have.
:-)
> The only thing I would like to see change is this infinite jeopardy system of blocking where minor infractions can lead to long blocks.
>
> hyperfocusRemember, a block can be the result of a minor infraction, but if it's long, that's the result of a long pattern of uncivil posts.
--
> Dr Bob, I think many posters would love to help open a window
>
> fbThat would be great, here's one:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/971688.html
> Posts critical of your moderation can still be composed in a manner that conforms to your rules of civil communication.
Exactly, despite all the constraints here, people (and not just you) can still express themselves.
> It seems to me that the time and energy being expended by many of the members of the community who are vocal in their disapproval of the current moderation paradigm demonstrates the great value these people place on the health of this website.
>
> - ScottThat's a great point, we all value Babble. Let's try to work together to make it healthier.
Bob
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 3:39:25
In reply to Re: the value we place on the health of this site, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 3:19:49
you funny, I thinks you is like me maybe huh? maybe you got parts cuz sometimes you kinga stuffy sounding and sometimes you just funny and sometimes you smart and sometimes you just make me mad!!! LOL!!!
Right nnow you making me smile cuz i thinking you in a shirt stuff with straw cuz you stuffy!!! :)
Hey deneb'll like that, a different stuffy, a stuffy like a toy, and she can have BOB stuffy :) then deneb be happy huh!:)
I can't sleep.
Wished I could sleep.
But I LOVE laffin!
Everyboddy goto laff cuz laffin is the BEST!!!!!HEY!!!! I got an idea, Dr. Bob STUFFIES!!! And somes can cuddle their Bobs(guess who!!!and it sure ain't ME!!!!LOL!) and somes can place their Bobs on the shelf by their computer and cuss him out!!! LOL!!!
ROFL ROFL!!!! an if Bob naughty we put Dr. Bob in the backyard!!!!!
LOL LOL!!!!
See it good to laff huh???
Everyboddy laff and be happy!!!
Just thinking....what you gonna do w/YOUR Bob stuffy Bob????
Tee hee :)
Hope you have some smiles :)
bye
Posted by alexandra_k on December 4, 2010, at 5:56:04
In reply to Re: the value we place on the health of this site, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 3:19:49
> Remember, a block can be the result of a minor infraction, but if it's long, that's the result of a long pattern of uncivil posts.
not necessarily. not if we are talking about incivility(no star). i worry about how many long blocks are the result of multiple minor infractions aka incivilities*.
Posted by SLS on December 4, 2010, at 6:45:03
In reply to Re: the value we place on the health of this site, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 3:19:49
> > It seems to me that the time and energy being expended by many of the members of the community who are vocal in their disapproval of the current moderation paradigm demonstrates the great value these people place on the health of this website.
> >
> > - Scott> That's a great point, we all value Babble. Let's try to work together to make it healthier.
Okay.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2010, at 9:00:21
In reply to Re: the value we place on the health of this site, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 3:19:49
:
"Remember, a block can be the result of a minor infraction, but if it's long, that's the result of a long pattern of uncivil posts".Bob
All of the posts for which I have received blocks were about changes which might make Babble more vital and thriving. I was about to receive a block of one year for using the word "outlandish" to describe a block given another civil protester. All of my blocks were given because Bob found some word in my posts that he claimed made him feel "put down". No other posters were ever involved; I could never know what he would happen to find uncivil. I finally felt so hounded and unfairly singled out for punishment that I could not stay here.
I'm here right now because I thought some of the administrative changes spearheaded by Solstice were very promising. I noticed that Bob, far from punishing civil protesters like me as he has done in the past, was showing interest and responsiveness. I think it is wonderful that he is willing to set up a Council which would review and modify blocks, and I hope there will be enough community interest to make it a reality.
I am definitely willing to let bygones be bygones if we are moving into a new era where Bob shares some responsibility with us in the running of the community. But I did want to remind those who think the present block system is fair of what happened to me. I will never be able to believe that I have ever been uncivil to Bob, even though he apparently thinks so. ; No amount of lengthy blocks can change my mind on that point. There is no point blocking me for a year could serve other than inflicting emotional distress and punishment on me, While in the past Bob has cited punishment as one of the legitimate reasons for long blocks of repeat offenders, I doubt that he would want to give it as a reason now. I think my situation is a very powerful example of the dangers of one-person rule, and also of how much harm long, idiosyncratic blocks can do, and why the blocking system urgently needs changing.
As Bob, Solstice and others move ahead, I want to give my strong support to their efforts.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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