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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 81. Go back in thread:
Posted by Solstice on November 24, 2010, at 20:09:25
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 16:30:19
> Hi Solstice.
>
> > > > Because so many are blocked?
>
> > > Sort of.
> > >
> > > I get the feeling that too great a proportion of the activity on Psycho-Babble has become focused on the definition and enforcement of civility rather than on its presumed focus on mental illness. I think we spend too much time and effort being forced to play the role of student to the administrator's roles of teacher and enforcer of the rules he formulated to govern speech.
>
> > I don't want what you say here to be true, but it is. Your observations are always So astute, Scott.
>
> Thank you so much for the affirmation. It comes at a time when I need to here things like that.
:-) Well Scott.. at the risk of overwhelming you with my 'take' on you (formulated over years of observation), I'll tell you what I think: I have found you first and foremost, to be brilliant, which is accentuated by your relatively modest self-perception. I have over and over again, witnessed your enormous capacity for kindness and compassion. You are frequently delightfully candid about your human foibles, so unpretentious.. which is so endearing. You do not intimidate others with your intelligence... you're such a gentleman.. always. Even your passions are tinged with objectivity. You have wisdom, self-restraint.. always measured. And No one can say So much, with so few words... quite like you can.
> > What would you envision as a way to address the genuine need for some kind of forum management, yet avoid the trap you describe above?
>
> I was thinking that it might be informative to take a look at how other Internet forums are moderated.
I don't have much experience with other internet forums, but I think you're right. I'm guessing that you've seen things about how other forums work that you believe could work here as well? The challenge, of course, will be putting something together that will satisfy Bob's bottom-line criteria. On the positive side, I have seen Bob make concessions. That tells me that he is not hanging on to his current method just to be contrary. Right now he's got a system that works for him. If members come up with a system that will work just as well for him, but also work better for us, I believe he will be interested in discussing it. There have been a lot of good ideas suggested over the years.. but the lack of organization.. lack of follow-through.. prevents it from ever getting on the table. There needs to be someone who has the capacity for self-restraint to rationally put something together and present it to Bob.. someone who will lead. Your own self-care should always come first, Scott but might you be someone who could fill that role? I don't think it's about getting membership consensus, as much as it's about getting something together that will work for Bob, but also work better for us.
> I think the control of speech here is rigid and too mechanical. Sanctions are triggered at a threshold of incivility that is too low. The evaluation of speech is compartmentalized and reduced to exercises in the strict application of grammar and diction. The length of blocks escalates too rapidly. Advisories are ubiquitous. The learning curve for the prescribed rules of civility is too steep. Some people are here for a week and then blocked from posting. The verbiage of the FAQ is too burdensome to read for new people to digest in order to post without being blocked. The posting system here is alien to most people who participate in forums elsewhere on the Internet. I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message.I'm with you on everything you say here.. so very succintly. And I think the block escalation issue is the biggest culprit. I even think the low threshold of incivility would be easier to tolerate if the block escalation wasn't such a problem.
What do you think about putting something together that would still satisfy Bob's objectives, but in a less demeaning (not sure if that's the best word) manner for members?
Solstice
Posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 20:55:33
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by Solstice on November 24, 2010, at 20:09:25
The check is in the mail.
:-)
- Scott
> :-) Well Scott.. at the risk of overwhelming you with my 'take' on you (formulated over years of observation), I'll tell you what I think: I have found you first and foremost, to be brilliant, which is accentuated by your relatively modest self-perception. I have over and over again, witnessed your enormous capacity for kindness and compassion. You are frequently delightfully candid about your human foibles, so unpretentious.. which is so endearing. You do not intimidate others with your intelligence... you're such a gentleman.. always. Even your passions are tinged with objectivity. You have wisdom, self-restraint.. always measured. And No one can say So much, with so few words... quite like you can.
Posted by Solstice on November 24, 2010, at 21:15:53
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » Solstice, posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 20:55:33
Ha! You are too much! That unsolicited opine was for free, Scott. It felt good to me to unload what I've been thinking all these years :-)
Sol
> The check is in the mail.
>
> :-)
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> > :-) Well Scott.. at the risk of overwhelming you with my 'take' on you (formulated over years of observation), I'll tell you what I think: I have found you first and foremost, to be brilliant, which is accentuated by your relatively modest self-perception. I have over and over again, witnessed your enormous capacity for kindness and compassion. You are frequently delightfully candid about your human foibles, so unpretentious.. which is so endearing. You do not intimidate others with your intelligence... you're such a gentleman.. always. Even your passions are tinged with objectivity. You have wisdom, self-restraint.. always measured. And No one can say So much, with so few words... quite like you can.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 25, 2010, at 6:53:26
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by Solstice on November 24, 2010, at 21:15:53
> There have been a lot of good ideas suggested over the years.. but the lack of organization.. lack of follow-through.. prevents it from ever getting on the table. There needs to be someone who has the capacity for self-restraint to rationally put something together and present it to Bob.. someone who will lead.
Interesting.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 25, 2010, at 6:57:14
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by alexandra_k on November 25, 2010, at 6:53:26
My advice is for you to try not to be disappointed if / when your suggestions fail. But perhaps you are more organized, are able to follow-through, and have the capacity for self-restraint and / or reason in a way that supersedes those who have gone before.
Good luck to you.
Methinks 'the wheels on the bus go round and round'. Miss you gg.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 25, 2010, at 13:24:55
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 16:30:19
There is a moderated website, Daily Strength, which does a decent job at moderating. (It also has handy features like 'ignore this poster'.) Seems each group has it's own moderator.
Not nearly as intimate a site as babble; however, it is moderated, which I personally want from a site, without seemingly shaming, humiliating, punishing, scolding, or otherwise 'correcting' a member.
I find the process of moderating at babble painful. I have not experienced being blocked. I have repeatedly cringed when witinessing friends and even those I may have antipathy toward 'apologize' in the babble standard, a standard that may take a poster more than one time to 'master'. I consider this public humiliation.
Another site, PTSD Forum, also manages to moderate while avoiding humiliation--.
Thanksgiving Blessings to all.
When god closes a door, s/he always opens a window.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 25, 2010, at 16:40:22
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 16:30:19
>I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message.
Well said, Scott.
Here is an example of a thread which I found uncomfortable to read. What do you think?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20100403/msgs/967761.html
Posted by Solstice on November 25, 2010, at 19:53:18
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 25, 2010, at 16:40:22
Wow. That thread seems to line up nicely with Scott's point about the low-threshhold. Very low threshhold indeed. Christ-empowered came out of that looking quite like a prince, in my eyes. My hat is off to Christ-empowered!Solstice
> >I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message.
>
> Well said, Scott.
>
> Here is an example of a thread which I found uncomfortable to read. What do you think?
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20100403/msgs/967761.html
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 25, 2010, at 16:40:22
> > I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message.
> Well said, Scott.
>
> Here is an example of a thread which I found uncomfortable to read. What do you think?
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20100403/msgs/967761.html
Yes, this thread made me uncomfortable to read also.I am trying to meter my statements so as not to be purposefully inflammatory or venomous in expressing the adversarial position I take when questioning the desirability of continuing the moderation behaviors currently exercised by the administrator of Psycho-Babble.
Although some people might find it difficult to believe, I have not experienced a recent epiphanic revelation regarding the sociological consequences of the moderation methods employed by the operator of this website. I recognized immedately the deleterious effects that were likely to ensue when the forum moderator first unveiled his system to govern speech. This was years ago. It is unfortunate that the results of my deductions then have now been actualized. I was hoping all along that the doctor knew better than me. I assumed he did. I have always deferred to him in matters of judgment regarding his proprietary definition of civility and the manner in which he enforced his regulations restricting speech by using posting blocks as a sanction. I am fortunate in that I had the verbal aptitude to quickly recognize the grammatical constructions and choices of diction that were consistent with the manner of speech prescribed by the doctor so that I would remain eligible to post here if I so choosed.
I have remained here at Psycho-Babble for all of these years because I judged the benefits to be had by me to outweigh the costs involved in producing compositions that conformed to the moderator's requirements for allowable speech. I have chosen to suffer the personal loss in witnessing the procession of invaluable people whom I respected, admired, and cared deeply for as they elected to discontinue their participation at Psycho-Babble rather than to operate in the current posting environment.
I believe that it is important to the health of the Psycho-Babble community that the forum be moderated. Unfortunately, it was predictable that the methodology chosen by the moderator to apply behavioral modification so mechanistically would lead to the death of a website.
A decade ago, Psycho-Babble helped to pioneer the use of the Internet as a medium for promoting education and support while offering an environment that allowed for the development of a nurturing community. Moderation was virtually absent. I credit the doctor for this. Although his interactions were few, he always gave the community a sense that he was a comrade rather than an overseer.
Somewhere, the experiment of establishing a highly-structured governance of speech using a model of civility developed by the moderator has failed miserably. For administration to acknowledge this does not constitute capitulation. It is a path towards enlightenment.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2010, at 0:17:11
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
Scott that was an awesome post and just completly read the whole thread in the post. Also husband did and thinks you have the most eloquent speech. You are so right I feel to be civil. But I speak for one other who also agrees. Phillipa
Posted by BayLeaf on November 26, 2010, at 10:29:37
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
SLS - That was beautifully written and very moving. TY for sharing your thoughts.
Posted by sigismund on November 26, 2010, at 15:41:33
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
That about sums it up. I'm impressed.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 27, 2010, at 12:26:21
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
>I am fortunate in that I had the verbal aptitude to quickly recognize the grammatical constructions and choices of diction that were consistent with the manner of speech prescribed by the doctor so that I would remain eligible to post here if I so choosed.
Definitely. Unfortunately, not everyone is as eloquent as you. Many people can't cope with the intricacies and complexities of permitted versus disallowed sentence structure. You're absolutely right Scott.
Posted by odon on November 27, 2010, at 13:15:22
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by ed_uk2010 on November 23, 2010, at 16:00:53
Ed_UK got it right the first time.It's because so many have been blocked.And this has a domino effect.Even those that are not blocked tend to post less,or stop posting.
Posted by sigismund on November 27, 2010, at 15:44:55
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 27, 2010, at 12:26:21
Dealing with this place probably comes more easily to those who were taught self expression as children.
Posted by sigismund on November 27, 2010, at 15:46:49
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by odon on November 27, 2010, at 13:15:22
>Even those that are not blocked tend to post less,or stop posting.
Most of them stopped years ago.
Posted by Free on November 27, 2010, at 16:09:19
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
>
> Although some people might find it difficult to believe, I have not experienced a recent epiphanic revelation regarding the sociological consequences of the moderation methods employed by the operator of this website. I recognized immedately the deleterious effects that were likely to ensue when the forum moderator first unveiled his system to govern speech.
>I believe you. And I feel like I understand you better now.
Who knows how much of it is my imagination...but it's all good :)
Good post, Scott. Very succinctly said.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 27, 2010, at 17:11:38
In reply to Re: This place is dying. » SLS, posted by Free on November 27, 2010, at 16:09:19
> > And I feel like I understand you better now.
>
> Who knows how much of it is my imagination...but it's all good :)Ditto :)
Posted by morgan miller on November 27, 2010, at 23:11:01
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by Solstice on November 24, 2010, at 20:09:25
>Right now he's got a system that works for him.
I'm not so sure about that. A system that works for him is a system that works for the members of his site.
Posted by morgan miller on November 27, 2010, at 23:18:41
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 24, 2010, at 16:30:19
>I feel like I am being treated like a child.
Your feelings are shared by many I am sure, including myself.
Scott, thank you so much for started this thread and expressing your thoughts and concerns so well.
You make a great ambassador to the members of this site.
Morgan
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
In reply to Re: This place is dying., posted by SLS on November 25, 2010, at 23:33:39
> I get the feeling that too great a proportion of the activity on Psycho-Babble has become focused on the definition and enforcement of civility rather than on its presumed focus on mental illness.
> I think the control of speech here is rigid and too mechanical. Sanctions are triggered at a threshold of incivility that is too low. The evaluation of speech is compartmentalized and reduced to exercises in the strict application of grammar and diction. The length of blocks escalates too rapidly. Advisories are ubiquitous. The learning curve for the prescribed rules of civility is too steep. Some people are here for a week and then blocked from posting. The verbiage of the FAQ is too burdensome to read for new people to digest in order to post without being blocked. The posting system here is alien to most people who participate in forums elsewhere on the Internet. I believe that some people can feel completely stifled in their efforts to communicate. I have not encountered any other websites for which linguistics are scrutinized so closely that sentence structure takes priority over the intended conveyance of the message.
>
> I feel like I am being treated like a child.> it was predictable that the methodology chosen by the moderator to apply behavioral modification so mechanistically would lead to the death of a website.
>
> Somewhere, the experiment of establishing a highly-structured governance of speech using a model of civility developed by the moderator has failed miserably. For administration to acknowledge this does not constitute capitulation. It is a path towards enlightenment.
>
> - ScottA lot of the activity here does get focused on my use of power. Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
There's anxiety about Babble dying. And maybe a wish for it to die. As if that would prove I've misused my power?
> I wonder if it some larger issue related to how the internet has changed over the years??
> it is my impression that many who are blocked, are blocked because they want to be and/or they should be
But it's been over a decade, and Babble hasn't died yet. It's a survivor. Even though it has self-destructive parts and the Internet around it has changed.
> too much energy is spent on discussing the plight of blocked posters
>
> obsidianHow can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight when the control of speech is so rigid, sanctions are triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled, and linguistics are so scrutinized?
> When god closes a door, s/he always opens a window.
>
> floatingbridgeA door may be closed here. Is a window opened?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2010, at 4:46:46
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
> > too much energy is spent on discussing the plight of blocked posters
> >
> > obsidian
>
> How can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight when the control of speech is so rigid, sanctions are triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled, and linguistics are so scrutinized?It takes so much energy *because* of all those things.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 29, 2010, at 6:07:03
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
Dr. Bob, no one is more qualified to speak for Scott then himself. Not me. Not you.
I'm speaking as a reader of this thread, and want to voice my own disappointment over the handling of this post by the administration.
>A lot of the activity here gets focused on
my use of power. Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
>
Scott spoke clearly in I statements. I feel the rephrasing to 'some of you feel the way' dilutes and even perhaps distorts the author's original intent: his feeling and experience as a long time forum member. I experience this response as fairly routine and impersonal, in addition to unhelpful. I myself am not impelled to deeper personal examination by this queru.> There's anxiety about Babble dying. And maybe a wish for it to die. As if that would prove I've misused my power?
>This reads to me as true psychbabble. If my own psychiatrist said this to me, he'd have some explaing to do. In my experience, many doctors use this table-turning forumla as a way to maintain distance. I hope this was not your intention.
> > I wonder if it some larger issue related to how the internet has changed over the years??
Yes, a good question. This reads a bit more open-minded, like you might be dropping your emotional remove to scan the vista with the author, though again, it admits no human (and therefor acceptable and understood mistake in practical vision) error on the part of the administration.
>
> But it's been over a decade, and Babble hasn't died yet. It's a survivor. Even though it has self-destructive parts and the Internet around it has changed.
>Sometimes survivors need to deeply reassess their values, veiws, and practices. Therapeutically, this reassessment is a sign of healthy behavior. Surviving is very different from thriving (or even striving).
>
> How can so much energy be spent on discussing their plight when the control
of speech is so rigid, sanctions are
triggered at a threshold that is so low, the evaluation of speech is so strict, the
length of blocks escalates so rapidly, the learning curve is so steep, the verbiage of the FAQ is so burdensome, the posting system is so alien, people feel so stifled,
and linguistics are so scrutinized?I don't understand the use of this quote
below fits here:> > When god closes a door, s/he always
opens a window.
> >
> A door may be closed here. Is a
window opened?Dr Bob, I think many posters would love to help open a window; as it stands, much of that is up to you.
Who will open a window here? This isn't
up to the posters. Much seems up to
you, Dr. Bob. However, I am disheartened to read your response which, too me, fails to hit the mark by reading more richly and more deeply. When a civil, highly intelligent long time poster seems so coldly dispatched after taking the time to compose what I read
as a truthful heart felt letter that strikes a chord of grief in me, I only feel disappointment and unease. The poster ended on a positive note, not shutting a door; in fact he has made some great suggestions, such as investigating how
popular website/ forum.When I read between the lines, I see much more than anxiety accompanying the 'death of babble'. Grief, loss, anger. A sense of depth is complex and cuts across any lines of logic thrown up to contain it.
Respectfully,
fb
>
> Bob
Posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 7:31:21
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:06:37
>Maybe it makes some of you feel the way you did when you were a child.
Maybe there is some truth to this, maybe not. I don't think psychoanalysis is necessary or appropriate here. It is something that could just push people away. When you go see a therapist, you expect psychoanalysis, and even then it is hard to take at times. When you ask people for advice or help, you may expect psychoanalysis. When you express concerns over how a website is being run, you do not expect psychoanalysis. This almost comes off as a deflection to me.
>There's anxiety about Babble dying. And maybe a wish for it to die. As if that would prove I've misused my power?
I hope you are not saying that Scott might wish for Babble to die. Maybe a few that are current members do and maybe some that are no long here do, but I really don't think members like Scott do.
Morgan
Posted by floatingbridge on November 29, 2010, at 10:14:58
In reply to Re: There's anxiety about this place dying., posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 7:31:21
>
> I hope you are not saying that Scott might wish for Babble to die. Maybe a few that are current members do and maybe some that are no long here do, but I really don't think members Scott do.
>
> MorganThank you, Morgan. I agree. Absolutely.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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