![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 51 to 75 of 257. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 11:28:57
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:19:57
Thanks, Muffled.
I'm sorry if I got a bit testy. I think some of my attitudes are influenced by my experiences as a deputy. Not all, or even most, posters did those things. Those who were particularly nice, as you were, were particularly appreciated.
But I did want to clear up any misunderstandings about the fact that we only have one deputy currently. There are things Dr. Bob can be legitimately blamed for. It lessens the impact if he's also blamed for things he is not responsible for. I would think he'd tend to pay more attention when the scope of blame is more limited.
I think I have developed a fair capacity for what Linehan calls dialectics, with regard to Dr. Bob.
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:31:23
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:25:36
>What if the council had the power to lift blocks? (after some minimum cooling-off period) What tools would they need? Would they be given criteria for making their decisions or would they have the freedom to decide however they wanted? Would there be any requirements besides being nominated?
Bob( think...)*Now this I like. I am getting confued btwn threads...
Anyhow, this sounds more like Bob would be willing to let go some?????
Is this what you mean Bob? that you would be willing to let go some? Or would you still barge in higglety pigglety(or willy nilly...;-/ ) and start throwing your weight around?
Or would you be willing to work THRU the board?????
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:37:55
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council » muffled, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 11:28:57
> Thanks, Muffled.
>
> I'm sorry if I got a bit testy. I think some of my attitudes are influenced by my experiences as a deputy. Not all, or even most, posters did those things. Those who were particularly nice, as you were, were particularly appreciated.
>
> But I did want to clear up any misunderstandings about the fact that we only have one deputy currently. There are things Dr. Bob can be legitimately blamed for. It lessens the impact if he's also blamed for things he is not responsible for. I would think he'd tend to pay more attention when the scope of blame is more limited.
>
> I think I have developed a fair capacity for what Linehan calls dialectics, with regard to Dr. Bob.*this is simple wording http://home.igc.org/~venceremos/whatheck.htm
You have the right to be testy, thats OK!
:)
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:41:22
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:37:55
Which isn't to say i endorse that website, just hit on it in passing but it kinda simply described dialectics cuz wiki was too complicated and heavy LOL!
The site I linked is not great, but the definition is useful.
Posted by jane d on November 10, 2010, at 12:57:15
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 11:25:36
> > > min·ion noun \ˈmin-yən\
> > > Definition of MINION
> > > 1: a servile dependent, follower, or underling
> > > 2: one highly favored : idol
> > > 3: a subordinate or petty official
> > >
> >
> >
>
> :) Thats why I always usually print the whole definition, cuz you pick the point that 'fits', cuz not all do in any definition generally. You pick the salient points.
> Eg , in this case, point #3b fits in the usage of the word above. The others...not so much!
>
> Definition of SALIENT
> 1: moving by leaps or springs : jumping
> 2: jetting upward <a salient fountain>
> 3a : projecting beyond a line, surface, or level b : standing out conspicuously : prominent; especially : of notable significance <similar to Prohibition, but there are a couple of salient differences Tony Gibbs>
>
>
> Words can have so many meanings, which is why the writen word can be so misconstrued sometimes.Muffled,
I think the problem comes when the word used has one definition that has a highly negative primary definition - usually listed as #1. And you can never separate a word totally from it's primary meaning. So "minion" is a problem because it mostly means something insulting and that's how it will be interpretated. "Salient" really isn't a problem because none of those definitions are insulting so there's no harm done letting the reader try and guess which usage you mean.
Jane
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 13:01:38
In reply to Re: multiple definitions of words » muffled, posted by jane d on November 10, 2010, at 12:57:15
Good point jane d!
I LOVE words!!!
They are so crazymaking yet fascinating!
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 13:05:39
In reply to Re: multiple definitions of words » muffled, posted by jane d on November 10, 2010, at 12:57:15
> > > > min·ion noun \ˈmin-yən\
> > > > Definition of MINION
> > > > 1: a servile dependent, follower, or underling
> > > > 2: one highly favored : idol
> > > > 3: a subordinate or petty official
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > :) Thats why I always usually print the whole definition, cuz you pick the point that 'fits', cuz not all do in any definition generally. You pick the salient points.
> > Eg , in this case, point #3b fits in the usage of the word above. The others...not so much!
> >
> > Definition of SALIENT
> > 1: moving by leaps or springs : jumping
> > 2: jetting upward <a salient fountain>
> > 3a : projecting beyond a line, surface, or level b : standing out conspicuously : prominent; especially : of notable significance <similar to Prohibition, but there are a couple of salient differences Tony Gibbs>
> >
> >
> > Words can have so many meanings, which is why the writen word can be so misconstrued sometimes.
>
> Muffled,
>
> I think the problem comes when the word used has one definition that has a highly negative primary definition - usually listed as #1. And you can never separate a word totally from it's primary meaning. So "minion" is a problem because it mostly means something insulting and that's how it will be interpretated. "Salient" really isn't a problem because none of those definitions are insulting so there's no harm done letting the reader try and guess which usage you mean.
>
> Jane
>
>
Ah, yes, it is in the word 'servile' :
Definition of SERVILE
1: of or befitting a slave or a menial position
2: meanly or cravenly submissive : abjectThat is where the negativity lies. The rest I am ok with, but the servile, not so much...
I'd be ok myself with being called a minion, mightn't love it, but be ok....however, servile.....hmmm, thems fightin words!!! ;-)
Posted by Deneb on November 10, 2010, at 16:38:16
In reply to Re: multiple definitions of words, posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 13:05:39
I hope I will be a good civility buddy. I must admit that I don't really follow all the posts about changing admin and such. To tell you the truth my eyes kind of just glaze over whenever Babblers go into detail about the politics here.
Also I wasn't a very good greeter. I kind of just lost interest. I hope I can keep up with the civility buddy thing.
Posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 16:53:02
In reply to I hope I will be a good civility buddy, posted by Deneb on November 10, 2010, at 16:38:16
> I hope I will be a good civility buddy. I must admit that I don't really follow all the posts about changing admin and such. To tell you the truth my eyes kind of just glaze over whenever Babblers go into detail about the politics here.
>
> Also I wasn't a very good greeter. I kind of just lost interest. I hope I can keep up with the civility buddy thing.Deneb, you are so amazing. watching you grow these years has been a wonderful thing :)
You have learned so much about yourself and how to function.
Maybe you can float and be a general 'helper' whereever you can...
Sometimes greet, sometimes help in other capacities.
You already do that!
You already help!
How cool is THAT!!!
:)
Posted by gardenergirl on November 11, 2010, at 11:55:18
In reply to Re: I hope I will be a good civility buddy, posted by muffled on November 10, 2010, at 16:53:02
Hope this is the right thread. I'm glad to try to help out anyone who has questions about civility or wants to babblemail me about posts.
gg
Posted by floatingbridge on November 11, 2010, at 12:15:51
In reply to Re: And how about volunteer civility buddies? » floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 18:22:41
> You are welcome, and I hope you consider it. If you have any questions about Dr. Bob's civility decisions, you could always ask me, or anyone else you think may understand.
>
> It would be interesting to see what could come of it. There might even be some side benefits of increased feelings of community.O.K. Dinah, you can count me in. There is one hitch--I have a young child whose
needs come first. What is the expected turn around time for a buddy's response?
Posted by Dinah on November 12, 2010, at 12:39:46
In reply to Re: And how about volunteer civility buddies?, posted by floatingbridge on November 11, 2010, at 12:15:51
That makes six of us to start with.
10derheart, Deneb, Partlycloudy, Gardenergirl, Floatingbridge, and Dinah
I'll compile the list and ask Dr. Bob to include it in the FAQ.
If anyone else is interested, just let me know.
Floatingbridge, we all have other obligations, and it would have to understood that some patience might be needed. Do you have a suggestion for a reasonable turnaround time? If a civility buddy thinks their time might be very limited for a time, perhaps she could suggest that another civility buddy be contacted if the poster would prefer not to wait.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 12, 2010, at 21:41:25
In reply to Wonderful!, gardenergirl and floatingbridge, posted by Dinah on November 12, 2010, at 12:39:46
I'm curious to find out what other babblers would want as far as response time from buddies.
The idea of a 'civility tree', similar to the telephone 'snow trees' we used in RI sounds good.
What about posting some brief information about a person's (somewhat) current availability? That way a person could use that info to decide whom to contact.
I also work with a sort of grievance committee, and we decided on a reasonable response time: 24 hours in this case. That's too long for babble.
Sometimes I may not check my email for up to 12 hours. I'd like someone contacting me to know that they aren't forgotten, lost, or a low priority.
What are reasonable expectations?
fb
Posted by hyperfocus on November 12, 2010, at 21:59:14
On that note one thing that would be really useful but not easy to implement would be delayed posting. Everybody has their triggers that take them to dark places. I remember reading a thread on Admin that triggered me badly because it seemed that other posters were ganging up and bullying this one poster who also had C-PTSD from the school bullying he went through. I wrote a post making explicit profane threats against everybody that would have gotten me blocked for a century if I had posted it. Thankfully I waited a few hours till I cooled down before deciding whether to send it or not.
I know it's just a pipe dream and this wouldn't be trivial to implement because it's extra work to write a batch job that runs every hour or whatever to scoop up posts in the queue, which would have its own issues with regular posting. But I bet half of the people who got blocked, if they had a few hours to think about it wouldn't have written what they did.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2010, at 14:50:36
In reply to Re: Delayed posting, posted by hyperfocus on November 12, 2010, at 21:59:14
I wonder if it could be selectively enacted as part of the early block reduction?
People might be more willing to have a delay than they would to have someone assigned to review their posts.
Your willpower is impressive. When I had a similar experience (as I related in another thread), it was only the fact that the site went down that saved me.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 13, 2010, at 21:13:02
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2010, at 23:51:46
> ELDER'S COUNCIL: This might be a fabulous dual-purpose group. As already suggested, the Elder's Council could serve to work with Dr. Bob on determining whether a member really has been incivil, developing a more consistent and predictable application of blocks for those who opt out of the CB route, and fill in for Bob when he is absent or unavailable.
>
> These are all just ideas. Others may have better ideas. But it's a starting place. I don't think it has to be set up perfectly. 'Kinks' can be worked out along the way.
>
> I just think it is really, really important that movement take place, and I think whatever the system is, it must satisfy Dr. Bob's objectives for maintaining civility. A syste that circumvents blocking like I've suggested might make it easier for Bob's sometimes narrow latitude on incivility to be better tolerated, less contentious.
>
> Solstice> Solstice got good ideas
> Eg. a council of elders.
> They would cover for Bob when he gone.
> And ultimately then maybe this site would become more 'ours', and not so much just 'His'.
> My main problem is with Bobs in and out, and his judgement about some things is not what I like. he's not really that invested in Babble, yet to those who post here, it is 'home', and that is a HUGE thing. People should have some degree of safety and autonomy in their own 'home'. Then they can feel more able to more fully share etc.
>
> au·ton·o·my noun
> plural au·ton·o·mies
> Definition of AUTONOMY
> 1: the quality or state of being self-governing; especially : the right of self-government
> 2: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
> 3: a self-governing state
>
> A council could override Bob(an effective council would).
> The balance of power would shift.
> I would have more trust(over time anyways) that a broader group of people might better have the interests of the 'present' community at heart.
> I think it might be a challenge for the elders council at times....but it could possibly work.
> The ONLY way I would be interested in being a part of all this would be if Bob was willing to relinquish some of his control.
> Ultimately, he would be the highest authority still.
> And he could be the techie guy as he is good at that.
> And then he himself can feel more free to participate somewhat, ask questions, study about topics etc...
>
> muffled> Deputies covered for Bob when he was gone, and consulted among themselves for a consensus.
>
> I don't recall posters feeling any better about actions.
>
> I see it as more likely that the council would either have to allow everything to retain the good feelings of the more outspoken posters, or would grow to receive the same feelings Bob receives. In my experience, posters are less able to tolerate rage than Dr. Bob is. I think part of the secret of Babble's longevity is Bob's ability to be a container for rage.
>
> I may be cynical, but I can't see people welcoming pbc's or blocks from anyone. Conversely I can't see all posters welcoming a lack of pbc's or blocks either. People tend to feel differently when they feel attacked.
>
> I do agree that Solstice has good ideas.
>
> But I don't believe the site would be better served by Dr. Bob giving over his power to a group. There would just be different problems.
>
> I am members of sites that are entirely group led. There are still splinter factions, huge blowouts and dissolvings of the group.
>
> This isn't utopia.
>
> Dinah> well.. the credit for the council actually belongs to hyperfocus, I believe :-) I took ideas I've seen from everywhere and just tried to see how they might fit together.
>
> > They would cover for Bob when he gone.
> > And ultimately then maybe this site would become more 'ours', and not so much just 'His'.
>
> The could cover in his absence. But I think that his ownership of the site is something that we all have to figure out a way to be okay with. In many ways, it is "our" site because without us, it would not exist. But when it comes to final decisions, those things will always belong to Bob. Just as surely as he created the site, he alone has the power to dismantle it.
>
> Solstice
Posted by 10derheart on November 13, 2010, at 21:34:20
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by Dr. Bob on November 13, 2010, at 21:13:02
....and so.....?
Posted by floatingbridge on November 13, 2010, at 21:51:35
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on November 13, 2010, at 21:34:20
I currently will not be able to be a full civility buddy. I've written Dinah and explained my limitations :(
Personally, I feel that practing civility can be an important part of personal and interpersonal healing. I appreciate the many posters who practice civility in their personal and unique ways. They are great models for me.
Maybe, with a little remission....
fb
Posted by Solstice on November 13, 2010, at 22:54:09
In reply to Re: some kind of Elders Council, posted by Dr. Bob on November 13, 2010, at 21:13:02
Bob -Have you any feedback? I posted a proposal for you outlining a system for people who are blocked or under threat of block to get guidance on repairing incivility through the Civility Buddy set-up. The Proposal is further down here in its own thread. It addresses some of the potential issues you pulled together for this post you made today. Please take a look and let us know what you think.
Solstice
> > ELDER'S COUNCIL: This might be a fabulous dual-purpose group. As already suggested, the Elder's Council could serve to work with Dr. Bob on determining whether a member really has been incivil, developing a more consistent and predictable application of blocks for those who opt out of the CB route, and fill in for Bob when he is absent or unavailable.
> >
> > These are all just ideas. Others may have better ideas. But it's a starting place. I don't think it has to be set up perfectly. 'Kinks' can be worked out along the way.
> >
> > I just think it is really, really important that movement take place, and I think whatever the system is, it must satisfy Dr. Bob's objectives for maintaining civility. A syste that circumvents blocking like I've suggested might make it easier for Bob's sometimes narrow latitude on incivility to be better tolerated, less contentious.
> >
> > Solstice
>
> > Solstice got good ideas
> > Eg. a council of elders.
> > They would cover for Bob when he gone.
> > And ultimately then maybe this site would become more 'ours', and not so much just 'His'.
> > My main problem is with Bobs in and out, and his judgement about some things is not what I like. he's not really that invested in Babble, yet to those who post here, it is 'home', and that is a HUGE thing. People should have some degree of safety and autonomy in their own 'home'. Then they can feel more able to more fully share etc.
> >
> > au·ton·o·my noun
> > plural au·ton·o·mies
> > Definition of AUTONOMY
> > 1: the quality or state of being self-governing; especially : the right of self-government
> > 2: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
> > 3: a self-governing state
> >
> > A council could override Bob(an effective council would).
> > The balance of power would shift.
> > I would have more trust(over time anyways) that a broader group of people might better have the interests of the 'present' community at heart.
> > I think it might be a challenge for the elders council at times....but it could possibly work.
> > The ONLY way I would be interested in being a part of all this would be if Bob was willing to relinquish some of his control.
> > Ultimately, he would be the highest authority still.
> > And he could be the techie guy as he is good at that.
> > And then he himself can feel more free to participate somewhat, ask questions, study about topics etc...
> >
> > muffled
>
> > Deputies covered for Bob when he was gone, and consulted among themselves for a consensus.
> >
> > I don't recall posters feeling any better about actions.
> >
> > I see it as more likely that the council would either have to allow everything to retain the good feelings of the more outspoken posters, or would grow to receive the same feelings Bob receives. In my experience, posters are less able to tolerate rage than Dr. Bob is. I think part of the secret of Babble's longevity is Bob's ability to be a container for rage.
> >
> > I may be cynical, but I can't see people welcoming pbc's or blocks from anyone. Conversely I can't see all posters welcoming a lack of pbc's or blocks either. People tend to feel differently when they feel attacked.
> >
> > I do agree that Solstice has good ideas.
> >
> > But I don't believe the site would be better served by Dr. Bob giving over his power to a group. There would just be different problems.
> >
> > I am members of sites that are entirely group led. There are still splinter factions, huge blowouts and dissolvings of the group.
> >
> > This isn't utopia.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> > well.. the credit for the council actually belongs to hyperfocus, I believe :-) I took ideas I've seen from everywhere and just tried to see how they might fit together.
> >
> > > They would cover for Bob when he gone.
> > > And ultimately then maybe this site would become more 'ours', and not so much just 'His'.
> >
> > The could cover in his absence. But I think that his ownership of the site is something that we all have to figure out a way to be okay with. In many ways, it is "our" site because without us, it would not exist. But when it comes to final decisions, those things will always belong to Bob. Just as surely as he created the site, he alone has the power to dismantle it.
> >
> > Solstice
Posted by Dinah on November 14, 2010, at 0:23:58
In reply to resignation, with hope...., posted by floatingbridge on November 13, 2010, at 21:51:35
There are many ways to contribute at Babble, and all your contributions are valuable.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 1:53:12
In reply to Re: Amnesty, posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2010, at 23:51:37
> if wholesale release isn't the best idea, then maybe reducing everyone's block to 10% of its original length or something similar would provide for a more gradual influx.
>
> Solsticehttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969512.html
redirected to consolidate discussion
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 1:57:49
In reply to And how about volunteer civility buddies?, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 8:58:48
> CIVILITY BUDDIES: The only way a wholesale release of Blocks will be successful is if the incivility continues to be managed. A system using Civility Buddies is worth trying. Right now, people can volunteer to be CB's, and members under threat of block can ask for help from CB's. That works great for people who have sufficient insight to realize they need to get assistance. Those folks don't generally end up with these unbelievable blocks, though. Maybe there can be a process where a member cited for incivility chooses i) get a Civility Buddy to walk them through the process of repairing the incivility and making it 'right'; or ii)default to however Bob wants to handle their incivility. This puts the power in the hands of the infractor. Maybe it can be set up for a temporary suspension of posting privileges by CB's until the infractor decides which route to take - and release of of the suspension is contingent on the infractor's cooperation with their Civility Buddy. There are a multitude of ways a Civility Buddy system can work when a potential block is being handled.
>
> Solsticehttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969512.html
> Posters who got blocked might not agree that their post was incivil. They may think the block is unfair. But if they want the block lifted, they will have to cooperate with a CB who can help them figure out how to think and feel about what happened in a way that helps themn stay within the guidelines and make repair - even if they don't feel like what they said did any harm. You mentioned having a part that sometimes gets disruptive for you, and how you tell that part to step to the background and wait until you have time to give the attention that part's asking for. It's kind of the same with this. We have to defer to Bob's civility guidelines because it is his site. Someone has to set the standard. He gets to make the rules for the 'world' he created. A Babbler that's been blocked is a little like that 'disruptive part' you mentioned. They are told to take a back seat. Then a Civility Buddy can 'sit down with them' and try to help them figure it out.
>
> There is just no way to avoid the reality that we have a Leader who has some authority that no one else can have. It's the only way for a group to survive and thrive.> > I would have more trust(over time anyways) that a broader group of people might better have the interests of the 'present' community at heart.
>
> I think trust will build over time if the system works. Bob won't look like such a 'bad guy' because blocked members would have the ability to get themselves out of trouble. Not by duking it out with him over the merits of the block, but by putting themselves into the CB process to make reparations.
>
> Solsticehttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969637.html
redirected to consolidate discussion
Posted by Free on November 27, 2010, at 2:22:07
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on November 10, 2010, at 9:14:36
Posted by Dinah on Amnesty thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969567.html
> If this is implemented, I think it would be important to have some criteria for parole. Leaving it entirely to the choice of the parole board, so to speak, might lead to conscious or unconscious favoring of the popular, or confusion and distrust by posters.
>
> The criteria could be developed by you, or by the council, or through discussion and at least partial consensus on the administration board.
>
> But transparency has always been a value on Babble, and I think it's a value that should continue in any implementation of parole. People should be able to understand if they might meet criteria before they apply, and why they were rejected if they were rejected. People should be able to understand the process, and the likely result, IMO.
>
> Otherwise it would lead to more confusion and anger than exist with civility guidelines. And the council might be faced with even more anger than in my opinion is already unfortunately likely.
>
> As I stated before, I'd suggest linking parole to a willingness to abide by site guidelines upon return. The first time could be based entirely on the word of the person asking for it. The next time and subsequent times could ask for more assurances than that, if the word has proven to be insufficient. There could be a fair amount of judgment on the parole board's part on what that might be. But I think the basic framework should be easily understandable by all.
>
> That's just my suggestion. I'm sure others would have other suggestions.A Parole Board...
It's an interesting idea. What other visions do you have?
Posted by Dinah on November 27, 2010, at 2:22:09
In reply to Elders Council and Parole Board......... » Dinah, posted by Free on November 10, 2010, at 11:12:33
I thought I was responding to Dr. Bob's suggestion. What he described sounded like a parole board although he referred to it as an Elders Council.
I linked the idea to one I had previously had about the benefit of linking a return to Babble with a willingness to attempt to live by civility guidelines.
I don't know that I have any other visions that I haven't already described. I was responding to one already offered by Dr. Bob. I guess I figure suggestions by Dr. Bob have a greater chance of being implemented.
Posted by Dinah on November 27, 2010, at 2:22:21
In reply to Elders Council and Parole Board......... » Dinah, posted by Free on November 10, 2010, at 11:12:33
Do you see Dr. Bob's suggestion as having some other meaning? I might have misinterpreted.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969518.html
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