![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 50. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by muffled on November 7, 2010, at 23:02:47
> You have the power to pick your battles.
>
> Battling Dr. Bob on PB Admin? Generally results in frustration and effects on policy ranging from
> - none
> - the exact opposite of what you intended to accomplish
> - some other seemingly random policy change that isn't what you wanted.
>
> Choose wisely!You don't give a rats @ss bout anything we got to say.
I see this quote in a couple of places.
Bob seems to be saying that ya, there IS NO point in talking to him, cuz it won't work!!!
He'll either do the opposite, do something random, or nothing.
But he's not likely open to any suggestions you might have.
Not in REALITY.
Every once in awhile he'll say something that makes you *think* he is open to ideas. He's sucked me in many a time.
But he's NOT.
He's made that clear by quoting this post all over.
Posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 23:25:13
In reply to Bob,you admit it!!What we say doesn't matter to yu, posted by muffled on November 7, 2010, at 23:02:47
Honestly. Let up. Nothing you say is gonna change anything, just like you said, so why keep posting?
You think having a pointless battle, with someone on the internet who doesn't respond, makes HIM look bad?
Posted by muffled on November 7, 2010, at 23:49:21
In reply to Re: Bob,you admit it!!What we say doesn't matter to yu, posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 23:25:13
Ya, just don't want him messing up people cuz the way this place is run is nuts I gotta tell ya.
Proly this is a plce for people that not got trauma or attachment difficulties.
And for people who already got their poo mostly together.
And who don't get upset when they friends is blocked.
I mad I can't be here.
But I can't be cuz it too hard to be here.
It don't make no sense her attall.
So I goto stay away cuz if I go to my board and be w/my friends, then I gonna get hurt, or my friends gonna get hurt and just can't stand to see that.
See, got parts that feel way too friggin much, some don't feel nothin attall.
But ya, you tabbed it man.
Spot on.
I a freak, I know it.
Allus was.
Bad egg.
Somes just borned like that and we live till we die and then thats best all round that we gone overall.
I keep tryin tho.
I just keep trying hoping I can be good one day.
Guess it'd take a miracle to turn sh*t into a decency?
Mebbe my miracle will come.
Tho can't imagine i'll ever be clean...
oh well.
You pretty smart one 4 sure :)
TC
M
Posted by Maxime on November 8, 2010, at 0:12:59
In reply to Re: Bob,you admit it!!What we say doesn't matter to yu, posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 23:25:13
> Honestly. Let up. Nothing you say is gonna change anything, just like you said, so why keep posting?
>
> You think having a pointless battle, with someone on the internet who doesn't respond, makes HIM look bad?Even though it is a poinless battle, maybe it helps Muffled to write down how she feels about everything rather than keeping it in. Maybe posting is more for her benefit than for Bob's.
Live and let live.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 8, 2010, at 6:11:54
In reply to Re: Bob,you admit it!!What we say doesn't matter to yu, posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 23:25:13
> Honestly. Let up. Nothing you say is gonna change anything, just like you said, so why keep posting?
>
> You think having a pointless battle, with someone on the internet who doesn't respond, makes HIM look bad?Conundrum,
You wrote,[...Nnnnnnn you say is gonna change aaaaaaaa...why keep posting?...], [...You think having a ppppppppp battle, makes HIM look...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting or not for readers to think about the member that you are responding to. If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
1A. What criteria do you use to state that {Nnnnnnn}the poster says will change {aaaaaaa}?
2A. In your understanding, have there been people in the historical record that had desires for change, and were told to stop their quest for change, and they did not stop, and effected the change sought? If so, can not the poster in question here also be driven by those same desires?
1B. What criteria, if any, do you use here to state that the member in question has a {pointless} bbbbbb for change?
2B. In your thinking, could the member here in question be motivated by the historical record that shows that those with the courage to continue until they prevail with a cause that they think is right, have effected the change that they desired?
1U. What criteria, if any, do you use to write here that the member's motivation could be to make the other person look bbb?
2U. something else
Lou
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2010, at 6:56:46
In reply to Bob,you admit it!!What we say doesn't matter to yu, posted by muffled on November 7, 2010, at 23:02:47
That's not the only message one could get from that post.
There are issues on which Dr. Bob has listened for a long time. He just doesn't agree. Listening doesn't mean agreement. On those topics where he has decided that his values suggest maintaining his current point of view, and posters suggestions don't include any new information, he is unlikely to change his opinion and protests are futile and can lead more to problems for posters than problems for Bob.
Don't you think it's possible to listen to another person, yet not be convinced that they are correct? It appears to me that posters are asking more than that Bob listen. They're asking that Bob agree. It would appear to me that Dr. Bob doesn't expect you to agree just because you listen, and maybe that's why he doesn't continue to explain.
I think I've talked you you quite a bit about negativity to Bob. Have I convinced you I am correct? I don't conclude you aren't listening or are being disrespectful. I conclude I haven't presented any information that you find compelling enough to change your mind.
I'm not saying Dr. Bob always listens or is never stubborn. But I am saying that sometimes people can listen, and not change their mind. Particularly if the same things are said over and over again.
Again, I ask you, do you change your mind about something based on the sheer number of times someone has disagreed with you? I wouldn't. And I have no expectation that it is likely that Bob will.
There is a difference between the facts and the interpretation we make about those facts. The interpretation is not fact.
The fact is that some posters repeatedly complain about blocks, and that Dr. Bob does not substantially change his block policy.
The interpretations speak to the state of mind of the interpreter, not the facts.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2010, at 7:05:11
In reply to Re: Bob,you admit it!!What we say doesn't matter to yu, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2010, at 6:56:46
Separating fact from interpretation, and recognizing that a lot of my pain comes from my interpretations and not the facts, has been an underlying theme of my therapy. One that has saved me a lot of unhappy feelings. I suppose I'd like that decrease in unhappy feelings for others, and particularly for you Muffled.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2010, at 7:51:23
In reply to Proly. » Conundrum, posted by muffled on November 7, 2010, at 23:49:21
I don't think Conundrum meant to say the things you said in your response to him. Do you think he meant to say those things?
I'm not sure Dr. Bob meant to say the things you "heard" when he blocked you either. Is it possible that you heard him say a lot of horrible things about you while he might have been giving an entirely different message? Something like "playing around with the auto-asterisker is something I would prefer you not do on this site."
Is there any benefit to you in interpreting a block or a post in such a negative way? My husband used to do that when I remonstrated with him about something. He'd say he was a terrible husband or a horrible father and get all upset. Naturally he is neither one of those things. He had just done something I would prefer he not do, or that may not have been wise to do. He was adding the rest as an interpretation of what I meant. There was a rather immediate benefit to him in that I would drop whatever I was saying to him to comfort him and assure him that he was not a terrible father or husband. I would certainly feel that he had heard what I said and taken it to heart. Perhaps it also protected him psychologically. From feeling the hurt of what I actually said, he focused on his interpretation. Those are just a couple of things I can think of. And I want to be clear that I don't think he did it with conscious intent. Not at all.
Maybe it's protective to consider Dr. Bob's block as meaning more than it likely meant. Maybe it means that you'll never trust Dr. Bob again, or you'll never let him hurt you again. Maybe it discourages him from blocking you again. Or perhaps there is no protective function, just a function of how you feel about yourself.
Might there be benefits to other interpretations?
I'm not saying that I know the truth about your feelings about Dr. Bob, or that I'm correct in what I'm saying. I'm just throwing the idea out there. Perhaps it would be something to talk about with your therapist. Or not.
I really don't think Conundrum meant anything so negative by his post though. And I hate for you to feel such pain about it.
Posted by muffled on November 8, 2010, at 14:47:20
In reply to Along the same lines » muffled, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2010, at 7:51:23
Oh, not to worry, Connundrum just wanted to tell me I was looking bad. Plain and simple. Very clear. I can accept that criticism. S'ok.
I have parts of self that consider themselves not very good, tho they desprately wish to be. To be accepted as good.
Other parts want to be bad, being bad and uncaring is good, cuz then nothing hurts.
Then there is the rational adult.
Etc.
I try very hard to not let other stuff leak thru, but occasionally it does.
Which is why I steer clear of humanity in general.
Too hard to maintain stasis out there.
Sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 8, 2010, at 23:46:37
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by muffled on November 8, 2010, at 14:47:20
(((((muffled)))))
i think i understand.
i think you are doing what i used to do.
what i still do sometimes.people show caring in different ways:
those who feel that people really can gain a lot from being at babble want to see people join babble. they don't want to see the boards spammed up with things that might put off new posters.
those who feel that people can really gain a lot of hurt from being at babble want to see new people warned to that. they want to help protect them or help them see that they need to protect themself.
the goal seems to be the same.
the means differ.
depending on what you think of babble as a means...
take care you
miss you lots xoxox
Posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 0:26:53
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by alexandra_k on November 8, 2010, at 23:46:37
Yeppers we had some good ol times huh!?
:)
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 0:46:35
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by muffled on November 8, 2010, at 14:47:20
> > Battling Dr. Bob on PB Admin?
>
> Bob seems to be saying that ya, there IS NO point in talking to him, cuz it won't work!!!Talking to = battling?
> Every once in awhile he'll say something that makes you *think* he is open to ideas. He's sucked me in many a time.
> But he's NOT.Maybe it's unclear whether I am or not. Which could lead to anxiety.
> if I go to my board and be w/my friends, then I gonna get hurt, or my friends gonna get hurt and just can't stand to see that.
> I a freak, I know it.
> I keep tryin tho.
> I just keep trying hoping I can be good one day.
> Guess it'd take a miracle to turn sh*t into a decency?
> Mebbe my miracle will come.> I have parts of self that consider themselves not very good, tho they desprately wish to be. To be accepted as good.
Maybe the miracle is guilt:
> > guilt is one of the great inventions of nature. For mature guilt lets you know what is unacceptable, and offers you opportunity to do something about it. ... worth can be defined by realistic possibilities
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/958778.html
> Other parts want to be bad, being bad and uncaring is good, cuz then nothing hurts.
What a nice insight. Being uncaring is safe. There are other ways to be safe from blocks, though: (1) leave automatic asterisking on and (2) have friends who warn you when it might be a good idea to rephrase or apologize.
> Then there is the rational adult.
> Etc.
> I try very hard to not let other stuff leak thru, but occasionally it does.
> Too hard to maintain stasisMaybe Babble is like a big version of you. It also has parts, other stuff leaks through, and stasis is hard to maintain.
Bob
Posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 1:09:20
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 0:46:35
Goto go to bed, but wanted to add this cuz it was in my head.
"Maybe Babble is like a big version of you. It also has parts, other stuff leaks through, and stasis is hard to maintain."
What my T is trying to teach me is:
-to accept ALL parts
-to try and have parts communicate better
-to get to know the parts and what they want/need
-to understand that they there for a reason
-that parts shouldn't attack other parts
-that parts shouldn't hurt the body
-to try and not shove parts away, but listen to themStuff like that.
In this way, we should develop better understanding, cooperation, communication, coordination etc.
Yeah, there's fights still and allus will be I suspect, cuz they different and gonna want different things etc. BUT, the point is to NOT banish and further separate parts. The point is to LISTEN and work it out w/them.
Thats how we got split in the first place....was parts got all pushed away.
Banishing, shoving away is NOT good.
Sometimes, a part get outta hand, or be around at wrong time, then ya, we NOW say, we say nicely that they can't be here right ATM and why, but they can come back later. They not banished for long time. Its just we busy and can't deal with them ATM, but we will.
If behaviour gets bad, then we talk bout it. We try and figger why.
We not shove them away (least not so often.....) cuz we learning that that just makes the MORE noisy and fussy.
They be mnore quiet if ya listen.
I didn't beleive T at first, but it TRUE.
It quieter if ya listen.
Sometimes they just scared and want to be heard.
They don't wanna be alone, they scared is all.
Same w/babble. Sometimes people just need to be 'heard'. They not trying to hurt, they just dunno what else to do.
And blocks is an awful mean thing to do to a p[erson whats already hurting and is just reaching out, maybe not in the best way, but maybe the only way they know.
Maybe they scared and hurt and blocks is just shoving them into the dark alone.
:(
How can we help them then?
Posted by Solstice on November 9, 2010, at 1:20:45
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 1:09:20
Muffled - when I read what you write... I am struck by what feels to me like exquisite
Poetry
Solstice.
>
> In this way, we should develop better understanding, cooperation, communication, coordination etc.
> Yeah, there's fights still and allus will be I suspect, cuz they different and gonna want different things etc. BUT, the point is to NOT banish and further separate parts. The point is to LISTEN and work it out w/them.
> Thats how we got split in the first place....was parts got all pushed away.
> Banishing, shoving away is NOT good.
> Sometimes, a part get outta hand, or be around at wrong time, then ya, we NOW say, we say nicely that they can't be here right ATM and why, but they can come back later. They not banished for long time. Its just we busy and can't deal with them ATM, but we will.
> If behaviour gets bad, then we talk bout it. We try and figger why.
> We not shove them away (least not so often.....) cuz we learning that that just makes the MORE noisy and fussy.
> They be mnore quiet if ya listen.
> I didn't beleive T at first, but it TRUE.
> It quieter if ya listen.
> Sometimes they just scared and want to be heard.
> They don't wanna be alone, they scared is all.
> Same w/babble. Sometimes people just need to be 'heard'. They not trying to hurt, they just dunno what else to do.
> And blocks is an awful mean thing to do to a p[erson whats already hurting and is just reaching out, maybe not in the best way, but maybe the only way they know.
> Maybe they scared and hurt and blocks is just shoving them into the dark alone.
> :(
> How can we help them then?
>
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 3:29:43
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 1:09:20
> > Maybe Babble is like a big version of you. It also has parts, other stuff leaks through, and stasis is hard to maintain.
>
> What my T is trying to teach me is:
> -to accept ALL parts
> -to try and have parts communicate better
> -to get to know the parts and what they want/need
> -to understand that they there for a reason
> -that parts shouldn't attack other parts
> -that parts shouldn't hurt the body
> -to try and not shove parts away, but listen to them
>
> Stuff like that.You got a good T. What I been trying to teach:
> -to accept ALL parts
> -to get to know the parts and what they want/need
> -to understand that they there for a reason
> -to try and not shove parts away, but listen to themeven the parts who are just critical
> -to try and have parts communicate better
> -that parts shouldn't attack other partscivil = better
civil = not attacking> -that parts shouldn't hurt the body
Babble = the body
> Sometimes, a part get outta hand, or be around at wrong time, then ya, we NOW say, we say nicely that they can't be here right ATM and why, but they can come back later. They not banished for long time. Its just we busy and can't deal with them ATM, but we will.
> If behaviour gets bad, then we talk bout it. We try and figger why.
> We not shove them away (least not so often.....) cuz we learning that that just makes the MORE noisy and fussy.
> They be mnore quiet if ya listen.
> I didn't beleive T at first, but it TRUE.
> It quieter if ya listen.
> Sometimes they just scared and want to be heard.
> They don't wanna be alone, they scared is all.
> Same w/babble. Sometimes people just need to be 'heard'. They not trying to hurt, they just dunno what else to do.
> :(
> How can we help them then?Blocks do make some parts more noisy and fussy. :-)
I'm busy a lot. Maybe that's where some kind of Elders Council
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/969323.html
could come in? They could listen, try and figger why, and decide if the part is quiet and feels safe enough to come back?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on November 9, 2010, at 6:16:56
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 3:29:43
> civil = better
> civil = not attackingthe trouble is that often the things you choose to label 'uncivil' and block for up to one year aren't obviously worse (to most others) than your suggested alternatives or attacking.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 7:56:14
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 0:46:35
> > Every once in awhile he'll say something that makes you *think* he is open to ideas. He's sucked me in many a time.
> > But he's NOT.
>
> Maybe it's unclear whether I am or not. Which could lead to anxiety.Boy, I agree with that. That may be the cause of some of my biggest complaints at Babble. You seem to allow discussion, without having any intention of changing based on it. Unless a poster is fortunate enough to stumble on the magic phrase that opens your mind to another point of view.
It is *intensely* frustrating to pour effort into something that is futile. If you're going to do something and have set your mind to it, I think I'd prefer you just say so.
I suspect you think of it as keeping the lines of communication open. But perhaps you could come up with a ratings system of how likely it is you'll change your mind.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 8:17:40
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by alexandra_k on November 8, 2010, at 23:46:37
Thanks, Alex, for recognizing that.
It's one of the things I've always loved about you.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 8:36:22
In reply to Re: Along the same lines » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 7:56:14
Moreover, the discussion is nearly always one sided. We have no idea how strongly you feel about an idea, or what your thoughts are about the benefits.
You use a very shrinky approach to those discussions. Which may be useful if you wish to encourage transference reactions (I can't imagine why you would), but is perhaps less useful in nonclinical settings. As much as you use your professional training in running Babble, a discussion of babble policies needs to be a bit more two sided than a therapy session.
I think that may be why I was less angry with you after the New Orleans trip. In person you may be every bit as attached to your ideas (what a nice way I found to describe that - I hope you appreciate it). But you were far more conversational in your style. Maybe you could bring a bit of that to Babble? I think if more people had the experience of speaking with you in person, they'd feel less frustrated.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 10:31:43
In reply to Re: Along the same lines, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2010, at 8:36:22
> You seem to allow discussion, without having any intention of changing based on it. Unless a poster is fortunate enough to stumble on the magic phrase that opens your mind to another point of view.
>
> I suspect you think of it as keeping the lines of communication open. But perhaps you could come up with a ratings system of how likely it is you'll change your mind.All we can do is stumble along together and hope we find the magic that opens the other's mind. I wouldn't know how to rate how likely that is.
> I think that may be why I was less angry with you after the New Orleans trip. In person you may be every bit as attached to your ideas (what a nice way I found to describe that - I hope you appreciate it). But you were far more conversational in your style. Maybe you could bring a bit of that to Babble? I think if more people had the experience of speaking with you in person, they'd feel less frustrated.
Thanks, I do appreciate that.
Maybe they'd feel even less frustrated if we speak on the beach. :-)
Bob
Posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 10:54:38
In reply to Re: to stumble on magic, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 10:31:43
I have a concern.
If the admin here(Bob) actually is reasonably consistantly present, then that is ok.But there comes problems, when the main person who controls so much, shows interest, gets everyone invested, then just POOF(speaking of magic...) disappears for long periods of time...
Now thats not such a prob is it?
The *prob* is, again, the inconsistancy. Cuz then he magically reappears out of the ether and starts suddenly changing things willy nilly.
He hasn't a 'sense' of the community because he is never there.
But the just drops in and thinks he friggin owns the place..(pun intended).
Reminds me of husbands that work away from thier families, the families learn to function as a unit w/o H cuz he not there. Then H comes home on leave(eg) and expects to just be part of the family.
But they have gotten used to it w/o him, and have to rearrange their systems of relating to adapt to his presence.
But then he goes again, and there's a hole :(
So they have to readapt. Then he back, and they readapt, back and forth, back and forth :(
What to do?
Maybe the H can ease in slow. See where things are at FIRST before he barge in w/disciplining the kids etc. Maybe consult w/wife to see where kids are at.
Work TOGETHER.
RESPECTFULLY.
COMMUNICATE.
Knowing the wife DOES have a better sense of the family unit as she is there all the time.
The wife, for her part helps the H understand and accepts him. And yes, corrects him.
My thots.
Posted by Solstice on November 9, 2010, at 15:25:06
In reply to Re: to stumble on magic, posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 10:31:43
Dinah:
> > You seem to allow discussion, without having any intention of changing based on it. Unless a poster is fortunate enough to stumble on the magic phrase that opens your mind to another point of view.> > I suspect you think of it as keeping the lines of communication open. But perhaps you could come up with a ratings system of how likely it is you'll change your mind.
Bob:
> All we can do is stumble along together and hope we find the magic that opens the other's mind. I wouldn't know how to rate how likely that is.
Bob - please re-read Dinah's first sentence.It's not about stumbling along until we find magic to open somebody else's mind to convince them "I'm Right!" I don't think Dinah's talking about changing you, or changing your values for Babble... rather.. I think it's about changing the manner in which those values are upheld. Let's dispense with stumbling along. The community and Bob have common goals.
i) less blocking
ii) less incivility in the first place
iii) incivility is followed by repair
iv) community feels safe
v) membership and posting increases
vi) Babble helps more people
Instead of magical stumbling and mind-changing, why don't we work together to create a structure for handling inevitable incivility in a way that maximizes its decrease, and minimizes community turmoil, disruption, and pain.
Suggestions have been offered by community members. Do you have any intention of addressing these things? If not, please say so... because I don't want to invest my valuable time and energy thinking about it if you have no interest. If you do - then let's get to work.
Solstice
Posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 17:04:34
In reply to Re: to stumble on magic - To Bob, posted by Solstice on November 9, 2010, at 15:25:06
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 18:59:11
In reply to magic-absentee admin..., posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 10:54:38
> But there comes problems, when the main person who controls so much, shows interest, gets everyone invested, then just POOF(speaking of magic...) disappears for long periods of time...
Right, then the challenge is to continue to function without him.
> Reminds me of husbands that work away from thier families, the families learn to function as a unit w/o H cuz he not there. Then H comes home on leave(eg) and expects to just be part of the family.
> But they have gotten used to it w/o him, and have to rearrange their systems of relating to adapt to his presence.And maybe they have feelings about his having been away.
> So they have to readapt. Then he back, and they readapt, back and forth, back and forth :(
> What to do?Rearrange the systems to function without him. And keep them functioning even when he returns.
> Maybe the H can ease in slow. See where things are at FIRST before he barge in w/disciplining the kids etc.
Would he discipline anyone if he came home and the systems were functioning?
> Knowing the wife DOES have a better sense of the family unit as she is there all the time.
> The wife, for her part helps the H understand and accepts him. And yes, corrects him.What if there isn't a wife/mother? Do the kids depend on older siblings? Can they
> Work TOGETHER.
> RESPECTFULLY.
> COMMUNICATE.themselves?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 9, 2010, at 19:13:13
In reply to Re: to stumble on magic - To Bob, posted by Solstice on November 9, 2010, at 15:25:06
> It's not about stumbling along until we find magic to open somebody else's mind to convince them "I'm Right!" ... Let's dispense with stumbling along.
I wish it were so easy. :-)
> Instead of magical stumbling and mind-changing, why don't we work together to create a structure for handling inevitable incivility in a way that maximizes its decrease, and minimizes community turmoil, disruption, and pain.
It's not either-or. How do we decide what structure to create? working together = stumbling
> Suggestions have been offered by community members. Do you have any intention of addressing these things? If not, please say so... because I don't want to invest my valuable time and energy thinking about it if you have no interest. If you do - then let's get to work.
I'm addressing Health.
One poster has offered to be a volunteer civility buddy/monitor. Do other posters have any intention of taking responsibility for anything?
Bob
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