![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 75 to 99 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by 10derHeart on October 27, 2009, at 16:03:44
In reply to Re: well said Dinah, and thanks (nm) » Dinah, posted by rskontos on October 27, 2009, at 15:25:39
Posted by Nadezda on October 27, 2009, at 19:02:46
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2009, at 15:09:21
I may not be paying enough attention, Dinah-- but I simply don't see it the way you do.
I actually don't know what Bob has done. It's not clear to me what it means that he's put these notations at the bottom of posts. Maybe he's explained it and I missed it-- and his explanation was abysmal. In which case, I'd appreciate a link to his explanation.
I don't want to put words in Bob's mouth, but maybe he's worried that Babble may cease to exist precisely because he doesn't make it accessible on and visible to people on facebook and twitter. Maybe he thinks the shape and structure of connection on the internet has changed and without making babble part of these new, dominant forms of communication, he's depriving it of new life. And maybe he believes that this is important enough to the survival and renewal of babble that he's willing to risk some of what he's created to create it in a better, more forward=looking way. Maybe he has some totally different motive-- of course.
I don't know. My sense , though, is that as much as it's about Bob, it's about a deep distrust and even devaluing of those who are not us-- it's about "us" as somehow special and different from those others on debased vehicles like twitter and facebook.
I don't think you can cabin off one from the other-- if people were empathic, and available to be touched and even affected by-- and drawn into-- our community, what Bob did wouldn't be so awful.
I agree maybe he did it without enough thought about people's feelings-- and fears-- and without taking time to introduce it in a careful way. But I happen to think that we should give Bob the benefit of the doubt. Even if it wasn't the best way-- I wonder that there isn't room to let him make some further response.
It may very well be that it should be about future posts, or that his ideas are open to revision. It bothers me greatly to see us as a group being so closed and so prone to give things the least favorable interpretations. Yes, this is a sensitive issue-- but the tone toward Bob recently has been disturbing, and while this may give everyone a sense of moral righteousness, it's not really that Bob betrayed us. That seems to me to be some sort of meme, or phantasy, that's being played out here-- without really being examined.
I'm very sorry if my way of thinking hurts you-- but it's not about you personally, or anyone here personally-- it's just that a group dynamic seems to have been set into motion, and to have a life of its own.
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on October 27, 2009, at 19:12:55
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Nadezda on October 27, 2009, at 19:02:46
But we are persons. There is no other way to take it but personally.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20091022/msgs/922966.html
If I'm understanding this correctly, someone has already used this twice even though Daisy specifically requested that it not be done.
I do not see how this in any way promotes a supportive Babble community.
Posted by Phillipa on October 27, 2009, at 20:06:22
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2009, at 19:12:55
Speaking from the med board perspective with still so much unacceptance of medications for psych issues by neighbors and family have no interest in this topic and have actually threatedned and they do mean it as they have influential jobs that if any of my posts end up there I'm disowned. Facebook is for fun. In my experience not one post has ever been about meds it's about lighter topics and having fun. The real world not medication. Which brings up another topic for me insurance companies, Jobs, etc. certainly can use this against you. And meanwhile a suicidal poster has never been addressed to the best of my knowledge by Dr. Bob. Posting doesn't reflect it. Just read a facebook page and people are joking and having fun. And know personally that those on my page are not there to talk psych issues. Some left babble to find a fun place. And we have fun. Intelligence silly test, Mafia wars, build a farm. Anyway that's my opinion on the topic.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 27, 2009, at 22:43:01
In reply to One more option, please?, posted by floatingbridge on October 27, 2009, at 11:34:31
but here's a link to NPR's story on Facebook:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114187478&ft=1&f=2
Posted by 10derHeart on October 28, 2009, at 1:45:01
In reply to we already know this, » floatingbridge, posted by floatingbridge on October 27, 2009, at 22:43:01
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2009, at 2:45:14
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on October 27, 2009, at 15:09:21
There is a 1 in front of the facebook icon on the previous post.
This might be because someone clicked the icon but did not confirm.
But if someone actually linked to my post on Facebook, I have asked that no one do that. I didn't include my request in this particular post, but given the content of the post, I had hoped it was obvious.
While it is clear that it isn't uncivil under Babble policy to do so against my expressed wishes and when it clearly causes me distress, it is something I take rather seriously. I don't know why anyone on earth would wish to link my posts to anything, or tweet my posts, but I find it extremely upsetting should anyone do so against my wishes and without asking first.
{I request that no one tweet or link any of my posts without asking me first.}
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2009, at 3:07:59
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Dinah, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2009, at 2:45:14
Of course, this could also be enormous fun for anyone who wanted to torment me in a bob-approved manner. Like my baby brother did. If that's anyone's motivation now or in future, and I'm not saying it is, then I hope Dr. Bob's providing of such a plaything is heartily appreciated. To offset how I feel about it.
If people are just playing with the buttons, perhaps it would be thoughtful to experiment on the experimenter's own posts?
{I request that no one tweet or link any of my posts without asking me first.}
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2009, at 3:20:33
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2009, at 3:07:59
Perhaps Babble should be left to those who don't mind this.
I know I can't tolerate living in this environment.
Yeah, yeah, I know Dr. Bob. I have to do what's best for me, and don't let the door hit me on the way out. Please don't say it. I've said it for you.
{I request that no one tweet or link any of my posts without asking me first.}
Posted by henrietta on October 28, 2009, at 9:08:47
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Nadezda on October 27, 2009, at 19:02:46
There may be as many different reasons for objecting to Face/Twit links as there are people objecting to it. I would never presume to have divined a simple explanation for the responses of a large group of complicated individuals.
Do you lock your car? I do, when I remember, even though I know 99.9% of the people who walk by my car have no intention of stealing it, and even though I know that one determined skillful person can drive it off even though I have locked it. Would I leave it unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, and paste a banner on it saying "Take Me"? No. All safety is an illusion, but prudent precautions can reduce the likelihood of misfortune.
You may not understand the feelings being expressed here, but please do not reduce them to some formula that may be comforting to you, but may be perceived as disrespectful by others.
Posted by henrietta on October 28, 2009, at 9:17:45
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Nadezda, posted by henrietta on October 28, 2009, at 9:08:47
Posted by Nadezda on October 28, 2009, at 13:34:34
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Nadezda, posted by henrietta on October 28, 2009, at 9:08:47
I wasn't characterizing everyone's response, but rather a general sense I had of a group dynamic. Each individual comes as it differently, and there are many individuals who have quite separate concerns.
Perhaps Babble is no longer safe for certain people. I think Bob should reconsider his changes in light of the feelings people have expressed of unsafety. However, I do detect a tone in the discussion that I find unsettling.
I hope those who read my posts will interpret the motives as benevolently as possible,, since I mean no disrespect to people who are fearful and see dangers where there may not be as many as they imagine. The fears of others is very common-- and yes-- there may be one person who will steal your car. Does that justify the rampant fear and many locking-up and gating measures that people take to protect themselves? And the atmosphere of vulnerability and suspicion that it involves? That, I suppose, is a question one could debate and consider more deeply-- but there are costs to locking up everything..
Nadezda
Posted by henrietta on October 28, 2009, at 14:26:40
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » henrietta, posted by Nadezda on October 28, 2009, at 13:34:34
Perhaps you're experiencing a bit of unwarranted fear,too---the fear of rampant fear!
A couple of years ago the police in my town recommended that people not store all their Christmas presents in their unlocked cars in the mall parking lot. Turns out people were doing just that, and lo and behold, some people's presents were stolen.
Prudent precaution does not indicate rampant fear. It's merely prudent.
Posted by Sigismund on October 28, 2009, at 16:55:08
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » henrietta, posted by Nadezda on October 28, 2009, at 13:34:34
>I hope those who read my posts will interpret the motives as benevolently as possible,, since I mean no disrespect to people who are fearful and see dangers where there may not be as many as they imagine.
Of course, Nadezda.
You are part of a community and a decent community will care for all its members.For myself, I'm made nervous by mobile phones (gave up) and remote controls for TVs (mastered it!) so I fear Twtter and Facebook will remain unvisited by me.
Posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 17:25:21
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Nadezda on October 27, 2009, at 19:02:46
> I don't want to put words in Bob's mouth, but maybe he's worried that Babble may cease to exist precisely because he doesn't make it accessible on and visible to people on facebook and twitter. Maybe he thinks the shape and structure of connection on the internet has changed and without making babble part of these new, dominant forms of communication, he's depriving it of new life. And maybe he believes that this is important enough to the survival and renewal of babble that he's willing to risk some of what he's created to create it in a better, more forward=looking way. Maybe he has some totally different motive-- of course.
>
> NadezdaMaybe some people liked the way this community was because it was untouched by social networking. Lot's of heavy discussion going on here. People may have also felt some sense of safety here w/o it being connected to the social networks?
Facebook and Twitter are tools for superficial communications. I see a lot of deep, personal dialogue here, but not on those sites. Yes, they are new methods of communication, but are they adding utility to anything at all? And they may be just a fad and go out of style just as quickly as they appeared...I can see the technology being useful for many things..but for social relationships, support--no, just don't see it.
This is meant to be a supportive community, and many members have expressed that this change is NOT supportive and has the potential to decrease safety or feelings of safety. Using that logic alone, I don't see why the change would be implemented.
Just because the site administrator (who by the way, doesn't post about his core issues/mental health issues) and thinks this change would be helpful....while the community supposedly being served thinks it is unhelpful, I think the administrator should give more weight to the community's wishes and not his personal wishes.
Of course, not everyone expressed their discontent with this change. A poll of members, if all active members responded to it, would determine what the community deems supportive or not.
Posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 17:36:09
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Sigismund on October 28, 2009, at 16:55:08
Instead of complaining about this site, I'd actually like to create a new forum-a forum that gives the members the tools they think are most supportive.
I can't take on an endeavor like that while in school right now, but maybe someday.....
Anyone else up to the task?
Posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 17:43:17
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Sigismund on October 28, 2009, at 16:55:08
Sigi, I like your post. And Nadezda, I'm happy that you feel safe.
Kind regards,
fb
>
> Of course, Nadezda.
> You are part of a community and a decent community will care for all its members.
>
> For myself, I'm made nervous by mobile phones (gave up) and remote controls for TVs (mastered it!) so I fear Twtter and Facebook will remain unvisited by me.
Posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 17:49:08
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » Nadezda, posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 17:25:21
Psyh Chat--well said--I agree. Thank you for your post. This site is more in depth, more personal, and more helpful (for me) than any other I have visited. Why is that? What works about this site?--great questions which I think your post sheds light on.
fb
> Maybe some people liked the way this community was because it was untouched by social networking. Lot's of heavy discussion going on here. People may have also felt some sense of safety here w/o it being connected to the social networks?
>
> Facebook and Twitter are tools for superficial communications. I see a lot of deep, personal dialogue here, but not on those sites. Yes, they are new methods of communication, but are they adding utility to anything at all? And they may be just a fad and go out of style just as quickly as they appeared...I can see the technology being useful for many things..but for social relationships, support--no, just don't see it.
>
> This is meant to be a supportive community, and many members have expressed that this change is NOT supportive and has the potential to decrease safety or feelings of safety. Using that logic alone, I don't see why the change would be implemented.
>
Posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 18:26:20
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » psych chat, posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 17:49:08
Thanks floatingbridge :)
You know, I'm not "against" those sites or the people who wish to use them. It's not black and white thinking as someone alluded to earlier.
I do think those applications can be a quick and easy way to let all your friends/relatives know what you are up to by sending a comment or two. It's much easier than postal mail! I can see its usefulness for organizations more than "enhancing" social relations. In fact, I think the technology has much more potential than is currently being realized. For example, I could see a twitter like application used in a hospital for the staff to follow patients....Can think of lots of other potential uses.
But that doesn't mean its good for social relations. That remains to be seen - and it is being studied by various researchers. How many people are picking up the phone or spending time with friends vs. how many are sitting behind their computer typing on facebook or twitter, abbreviating their conversations, etc. It might someday prove to be a barrier to interpersonal relations. It will be interesting to see the outcome.
The Obama campaign was very successful using the social network technology. They had a comprehensive website for it. Lot's of detail, forum conversations, and links to 'real' meetings. There was collaboration going on - not just superficial one sentence Twitter-like conversations. There is a big difference.
I think of it mostly along the lines of how Phillipa framed the concept - Facebook & Twitter are used for entertainment for the most part, and as I said, superficial social contact.
To get the best of the technology, it seems it would be more useful to link Babble with non-profit organizations, educational sources, and other mental-health related networks. It just doesn't make sense to link it to Facebook & Twitter - it even seems to minimize the supportive nature of the forum. Encourages or turns it into something to be simply "passed around" rather than USED. And as we are starting to see, it discourages people from in-depth conversations and encourages the superficial style communication already rampant among the social networks. Several people already said they would not offer as much personal support.
Also - just because something is popular, doesn't mean everyone should jump on the bandwagon. I mean, McCarthyism spread as fast as social networks, and it also was partly responsible for the Vietnam War - a war that was known to be unwinnable. Look all the death and horror popularity caused there. Of course McCarthyism died out, well not completely. But for the most part.
I think these social networks can be considered a lot of hype though. Remember how the news media gave so much attention to McCain using twitter? It was so silly. I wonder how much Twitter grew after that. There is so much hype going on - and a lot of it just fueled by advertising and consumerism. Money being the incentive. I'm not surprised at all of the content of the article you posted - about all the 'quiz' applications on Facebook, etc. inserted to convertly collect personal information. There is so much controversy going on with the internet and privacy--so much yet to be resolved. Legislation will eventually follow to somehow protect people from harm.
Of course these are just my opinions.
Posted by 10derHeart on October 28, 2009, at 18:33:40
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » floatingbridge, posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 18:26:20
Yes, and very interesting and thoughtful opinions they are, too.
You always make me think. Thanks for that :-)
Posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 18:39:01
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » floatingbridge, posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 18:26:20
Psych Chat,
I facebook, myself--no twitter, though--just had no use for it. I think this last post of yours is even more enlightening. I love your suggestion of linking or 'outreach' to other organizations. I think that could really be of benefit to various communities.
To make a long post short, I really think your posts show an understanding of how various networks function w/ an eye toward optimizing our site. Thank you again. More food for thought.
fb
I keep saying to myself that I'm not going to post on this thread--guess I really care about what happens and our community's well-being :-)
Posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 18:47:52
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » psych chat, posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 18:39:01
Yes, doesn't it seem useful to link someone who is having suicidal thoughts to crises-based non-profit organizations - so a task force armed with resources to help can immediately be linked to the person on this site?
Lot's of potential to strenghthening a support community with technology. Can think of so many things that can be very useful. It doesn't make sense, however, to implement technological applications that many don't deem useful and see as devaluing to this site. Why not ask the members served by this community what *they* want?
Sigh. I feel the same way - interested in bettering this community. It's a shame when things are changed in a manner that serves little to no utility - according to many of the users of this site.
Who, but the consumers/supporters, would know what is and isn't best for this site?
Posted by psych chat on October 28, 2009, at 18:49:53
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » psych chat, posted by 10derHeart on October 28, 2009, at 18:33:40
10der, you are a sweetie. I am just a bit upset at the possibility of losing this community.
I think just about every organization has more potential or can be improved. It irks me to see the site devalued.
I will put away my megaphone now. lol
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 29, 2009, at 12:13:56
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options » psych chat, posted by floatingbridge on October 28, 2009, at 18:39:01
> Why do you see people choosing to tweet someone else's post? Would they be tweeting it to their friends and coworkers? Will they understand the risk to that?
> I don't know why anyone on earth would wish to link my posts to anything, or tweet my posts
They might consider it a particularly thoughtful and intelligent post (even if you don't). Or they might want to help you find support and information.
What risk do you see?
> You didn't answer my question. Does this have anything to do with the proposal that is in, on using social media to build an online community? If so, oughtn't you use social media to build a *new* online community?
Sorry, I didn't know which tweet you meant. No, this is separate from that, that is in fact using social media to build a new online community.
> Also, by linking to Twitter and Facebook terms of service, are you implying that you bear no responsibility for use of our posts through buttons you edited our posts to contain? I don't know whether you have legal responsibility, but in providing those buttons you have, in my opinion, made yourself morally responsible for their use.
>
> DinahI take responsibility for providing the buttons, but I see those who use them as responsible for how they use them.
--
> In my opinion, ultimately all that has been shattered here is an illusion of privacy - expedited by the presence of two little buttons at the bottom of each post. It's almost funny.
>
> Seldom.And related to privacy is safety. Babble has never been private because of restricted access, like a gated community. But it's safe because it's anonymous -- and civil.
--
> Why not place a nice big icon for sharing on the Babble Welcome page? I would not feel my promise not to be twittered was violated, because I would not feel singled out. Maybe share icons at the top of the board pages, too.
>
> fbButtons on other pages is a great idea, thanks!
--
> If a person was suffering and sought help from another after being raped/sexually abused, and the person they sought help from went and told a bunch of people that person was raped -it WOULD be considered socially unacceptable and sick or twisted.
>
> psych chat> Case in point, our fellow babbler in distress last night. ... The way the Babble community responded was compassion in action.
>
> fbI agree, this community really was great. Wouldn't it be nice if a suicidal Facebook or Twitter user joined Babble, felt the compassion here, and changed their mind?
--
> I feel betrayed by you
>
> I feelthat as a professional md who specializes in mental health your changes are not to be made lightly but you often act in a way that without knowing what is in your head or heart we are left to feel powerless. ... I went looking on Twitter for your site and I came across just in the search engine people calling each other vulgar language, it is obvious there is no civility guidelines for that site and yet you(Dr. Bob), who takes your own civility guidelines quite seriously ask us to be open about our words and our own issues just being posted there without our knowledge and on sites that civility is not a concern. I can't understand this.
>
> Are you, Dr. Bob, concerned at all about how we feel?
>
> Good luck with Babble Dr Bob, I think it might be a sinking ship.Thanks for using I-statements above. I understand you feel betrayed and powerless. And I'm concerned about how you feel, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to change my mind.
Facebook and Twitter may not take civility as seriously, but you don't have to go there if you don't want.
If the ship is sinking, it's time for some changes!
> I don't think it is fair of Dr Bob to say is this because you have anxiety issues coming up, it implies that you are mental health issue person and your concerns are not valid.
>
> rskSorry, I didn't mean to imply that anyone had anxiety issues. Anxiety isn't always a symptom of an issue, it can also be a normal response to change. And to feelings of exposure and vulnerability and betrayal and powerlessness.
--
> To get the best of the technology, it seems it would be more useful to link Babble with non-profit organizations, educational sources, and other mental-health related networks.
>
> psych chat> I love your suggestion of linking or 'outreach' to other organizations. I think that could really be of benefit to various communities.
>
> I keep saying to myself that I'm not going to post on this thread--guess I really care about what happens and our community's well-being :-)
>
> fbLink with them how?
Thanks for caring about this community and thinking of other changes that might help, I appreciate that.
--
> One thing that saddens me is the extent to which people here are unconsciously showing such possibly hurtful attitudes about the 'rest of the world"-- as if we --and "they"--as human beings didn't share a lot of the same pain, and as if these "other" people were likely to be rubberneckers, voyeurs, somehow not worthy of being aware of our thoughts, or part of "our" community.
>
> We all share even a distrust and anxiety about others-- but I hope that we all can find it in ourselves to remember that we share with these others a lot of the same human experiences, hopes, fears, and losses.
>
> Nadezda> I am sorry that you read into my comments that I've divided the world into 'us' and 'them'. ... As I question myself now as I write, I find that I do not believe the world is divided as such. However, as a person w/ my own experiences, I have learned how to take care of myself in a world that can be, at times, quite insensitive.
>
> fbHmm, in addition to feeling anxious about strangers and expecting the future to be like the past, might we also be seeing in them what we don't like about ourselves?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 29, 2009, at 12:29:53
In reply to Re: tweet / facebook options, posted by Dr. Bob on October 29, 2009, at 12:13:56
> > Why do you see people choosing to tweet someone else's post? Would they be tweeting it to their friends and coworkers? Will they understand the risk to that?
>
> > I don't know why anyone on earth would wish to link my posts to anything, or tweet my posts
>
> They might consider it a particularly thoughtful and intelligent post (even if you don't). Or they might want to help you find support and information.
>
> What risk do you see?I see the risk of those who read Babble, and the Babble administrator disrespecting me by disrespecting my wishes.
I see the risk of feeling fury and rage that anyone would violate my wishes with regard to my post.
If people respect my posts or me as a person, they ought to respect me enough to respect my wishes about the distribution of my thoughts and feelings. If they wish me to receive support, they could support me by respecting my wishes. If they wish me to receive education, they can suggest that *I* put my story out there. Are you seriously suggesting that people should tweet the posts of others to obtain for them support and education from places other than Babble?
I'm leaving, as I already said on Social.
I'm sorry I'm leaving under these circumstances. Please please don't tell me I need to do what is best for me. Please don't tell me that you appreciate what I've brought to Babble. If you appreciated it, you wouldn't have driven me away. Given the number of people on the no tweet list, you had to have considered a certain number of posters an acceptable loss. I do not feel valued or appreciated as an acceptable loss.
I had appreciated your providing this place for me to learn and grow. But unfortunately, all my posts here are now just a potential source of humiliation and shame.
I'm really sorry it ended this way.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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