![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 108 to 132 of 157. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on December 28, 2006, at 12:44:53
In reply to Re: Lou aspects of El's post, and others, etc, posted by madeline on December 28, 2006, at 12:13:46
> However, I think it is more appropriate and much more civil to discuss the trigger rather than to discuss the other poster.
I agree. Well said.
gg
Posted by Dinah on December 28, 2006, at 12:57:47
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts, posted by cassie17 on December 28, 2006, at 12:04:31
Well, what I see here for the most part is posters encouraging other posters to seek help IRL. Babble is no substitute for real life help for those who need it, but it can be a place where people can hear that there are those who care whether they live or die, and be urged and encouraged to get real life help.
And then other posters have to realize that that *is* all they can do. That there is no responsibility to "save" anyone else, because that isn't possible anyway. Thank heavens. If it were possible, the responsibility would be too great for me to bear.
The advantage of the board, as opposed to approaching a single other person, is that those who feel up to responding can respond, and those who feel too triggered can avoid responding.
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 13:08:51
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts, posted by cassie17 on December 28, 2006, at 12:04:31
But is there not a bit of a stigma associated with judging another person to be "mentally ill"? Ie, "they are only doing that because they are mentally ill". "Only a mentally ill person would do that". "This isn't a place for the mentally ill". Of course it's better to talk to someone in person if one is feeling suicidal, but sometimes that doesn't feel possible for people-it can be part of feeling suicidal. They might also fear being judged, and perhaps there is something more remote or anonymous about an internet forum. Or, perhaps they might feel more comfortable communicating with people they know online, rather than with a stranger. Social phobia, phone phobia, wanting to avoid a hospital drama might come into play. People sometimes have friction with their doctors and therapists, too. Real life friends and family might not understand, might also be judgemental. It's good to have another option available.
> I don't think there's stigma attached to the idea that someone who is about to commit suicide is mentally ill. If there's anything that would count as a sign of mental illness, getting ready to kill yourself HAS to be one.
>
> Don't mean to take the topic off admin topic. I still think if a person has serious suicidal thoughts, they are much better calling a hotline and talking to a real person than posting a final goodbye on a bulletin board. Surely that isn't an uncommon opinion?
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 13:29:04
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts, posted by Dinah on December 28, 2006, at 12:57:47
Dinah, I like your viewpoint- very sensible and still compassionate.I do imagine, hope that if someone posts about suicidal ideas, the urgings of those respondents who felt up to responding might nudge and give confidence to the person in need of real life help to seek it. I think it would be very helpful to hear, "you can get help, you can do this, this, and this and here's what happened when I did it, and I'm glad I did it" rather than "snap out of it", "you're such a downer", "stop being so dramatic", or "be more responsable for yourself". Unfortuneately, such sentiments are fairly common with a lot of people who don't know what it is like to feel very depressed, and getting loads of such "advice" can be very discouraging. As for me, most of my non-depressed friends are convinced that I wouldn't ever be depressed if I would just get off all prescription medications and start to think sensibly, and as for family- well- we don't have "mentally ill" people in our family. There was a time when I seriously questioned what made life worth it, and was advised to get some hot chocolate by a well meaning friend who had zero comprehension of what I was attempting to discuss. I never felt so isolated as then. In any case, the boards here are a good place to realize that one isn't isolated, that others struggle with such feelings, too.
> Well, what I see here for the most part is posters encouraging other posters to seek help IRL. Babble is no substitute for real life help for those who need it, but it can be a place where people can hear that there are those who care whether they live or die, and be urged and encouraged to get real life help.
>
> And then other posters have to realize that that *is* all they can do. That there is no responsibility to "save" anyone else, because that isn't possible anyway. Thank heavens. If it were possible, the responsibility would be too great for me to bear.
>
> The advantage of the board, as opposed to approaching a single other person, is that those who feel up to responding can respond, and those who feel too triggered can avoid responding.
Posted by wishingstar on December 28, 2006, at 13:32:43
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts, posted by cassie17 on December 28, 2006, at 11:29:11
I agree with you that being seriously suicidal signals some sort of mental illness, most likely depression or bipolar disorder, but also possibly a host of other things. I didnt mean to say otherwise. I guess I just have different feelings when I hear depression/bipolar and "serious mental illness". That's probably my own issue though.
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 13:43:43
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts » cassie17, posted by wishingstar on December 28, 2006, at 13:32:43
I guess what troubles me isn't "mental illness" so much as the possibility of dividing people up into castes of "mentally ill" and "normal", in which the sentiments and concerns of the "normal" people are valid, and those of the "mentally ill" are dismissed as invalid. There's enough of that going on in "the real world".
Posted by karen_kay on December 28, 2006, at 14:07:59
In reply to Re: Do I have to take y'all outside? » Happyflower, posted by AuntieMel on December 26, 2006, at 16:07:19
do i have to bend you over my knee??? (that's always been my favorite one)
hope you're doing well. (and let me know about my question, seriously!!!)
Posted by karen_kay on December 28, 2006, at 14:36:44
In reply to (((((auntie mel))))) » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 28, 2006, at 14:07:59
but i don't really care.
is it entirely impossible to not interact with posters that one finds are unnerving? for example, hypothetically, if karen_kay (hey! that's me and only me, no one else, not accussing, putting down, or anything else) is upsetting me by posting that she's going to kill herself if i don't stop ignoring her, and i find it bothersome (that kk, she really does get on my nerves and EVERYONE knows that she wants to be the center of attention always. but gosh, she sure is cute and really does deserve to be the center of attention. gosh, it's so hard to ignore her!) then i don't open kk's posts. not until i'm ready to find kk's posts amusing or be of help. now, i'm not going to instigate kk, but i'm not going to read her posts (and god! does that make me... oops, her mad!)
so, i don't allow myself to be manipulated by kk (and she sure does like to manipulate people). and if i'm really not feeling like gettign involved in those kind of things, i have posters that i ONLY read their posts, knowing they don't usually upset me (not like kk does. she really can be upsetting) anyway. so, is it so much kk manipulating people or people allowing themselves to be manipulated by kk?
(i'm also a bit concerned about other people who need help, support, ect. but don't reach out because they don't want to be 'another kk.') see, there i go again, making it all about me :)
footnote: i am not saying that anyone here threatens sxuicide for attention, other than kk. i'm not (repeat not) substituting one name for another. and i'm not trying to make light of this subject. i just don't want anyone coming back on me saying, 'are you talking about me' becuase i believe i've made it clear i am only talking about kk.
Posted by wishingstar on December 28, 2006, at 18:16:45
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts, posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 13:43:43
I absolutely agree with you laima. 100%. After I posted my last message I thought more and realized I'd probably worded my thoughts incorrectly. It may have sounded like I meant that people with depression/bipolar dont (in my opinion) suffer from 'severe' mental illness, and are therefore better/more "sane"/more important/etc etc etc or somehow in a different category than those with more severe diagnoses or no diagnoses at all. I absolutely do not believe that. I just wanted to make that clear. We all have our problems, and whether or not a person has a diagnosis does not change their worth or importance.
Posted by fayeroe on December 28, 2006, at 19:13:03
In reply to Lou's request for clarification to fayeroe » fayeroe, posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2006, at 10:03:50
this is a mental health forum. i'm not very interested in nascar forums/sky diving forums/deep sea fishing forums and i doubt that very many others are..........that's what i meant when i said there are too many "what ifs"........we could "what if" it til the cows come home. ......it's counterproductive to go off in seventy different directions.........
i merely pointed out that we we discussing a very specific issue.
and the explanation for "til the cows come home" is that it could be very late.........
Posted by fayeroe on December 28, 2006, at 19:15:58
In reply to Re: Lou aspects of El's post, and others, etc, posted by madeline on December 28, 2006, at 12:13:46
> I totally agree with what you said, but my issue is when posters imply/threaten/indicate that they feel/are suicidal in reponse to something another poster said or did - especially in an attempt to coerce that poster into an action.
>
> We all have triggers and it may be entirely possible that a poster could trigger suicidal ideation in another. However, I think it is more appropriate and much more civil to discuss the trigger rather than to discuss the other poster.
>
> It is THAT issue that on which I would like to see some clarification and accountability.that is the issue that i've been trying to talk about.........thanks, maddie......pat
>
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 19:20:17
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts » laima, posted by wishingstar on December 28, 2006, at 18:16:45
Wishingstar, I hope I didn't sound as if I was accusing anyone of anything! That would be ME with the wrong tone or words... Not sure how to explain. I think what I was expressing concern about hasn't exactly manifested on babble, (as far as I can tell), but it is quite common out and about.> I absolutely agree with you laima. 100%. After I posted my last message I thought more and realized I'd probably worded my thoughts incorrectly. It may have sounded like I meant that people with depression/bipolar dont (in my opinion) suffer from 'severe' mental illness, and are therefore better/more "sane"/more important/etc etc etc or somehow in a different category than those with more severe diagnoses or no diagnoses at all. I absolutely do not believe that. I just wanted to make that clear. We all have our problems, and whether or not a person has a diagnosis does not change their worth or importance.
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 19:32:45
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification to fayeroe » Lou Pilder, posted by fayeroe on December 28, 2006, at 19:13:03
I think Lou was just trying to explain that a website which welcomes and attracts suicidal posters will have a higher mortality rate than one which bans suicidal posters...BECAUSE it attracts more of them in the first place. And if that doesn't make sense, an anology might be that a website for amateur skydivers will have a higher mortality rate than one for quilting bee enthusiasts. (Or watchers of adventure tv shows.) Whether or not the anology is a good one is uncertain, but that's the gist of it.
(Please do correct me if I'm wrong, Lou. But I think this is what you're saying, because I read and understood Dr. Bob's statement the same way you did.)
Posted by wishingstar on December 28, 2006, at 19:47:50
In reply to Re: Good Bye Posts » wishingstar, posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 19:20:17
Oh dont worry, your post did not seem accusatory or anything else negative. I had just thought about what I'd posted before reading your post, and wanted to make you it was clear to you and to everyone else that we were in agreement. I didnt want to come off in any way other than what I intended.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 28, 2006, at 20:32:39
In reply to Please don't pressure others » Deneb, posted by Dinah on December 26, 2006, at 16:29:13
Isn't it against the **civility** rules to harrass another member? Would pressure to some not feel like harassment? Don't you still PBC and THEN block people when they do not follow DNP's and other board policies??? If I recall correctly if one had a few PBC's then a block would be in order when they failed to obey the rules as Dinah understands them below. I have never heard of a do not pressure. I would ask you to take stronger action then DN=PRESSURE in this case.
Thank you for even considering my post.
> It's against Babble policy to pressure others, or to post to those who have requested that you not post to them.
>
> It is *not* against the rules, as I understand them, for either party to mention the other party, or to discuss the contents of their posts.
>
> I'm going to have to ask you to please not pressure Happyflower to respond to you, per the civility guidelines as I understand them. If I am misapplying them, I'm sure Dr. Bob will feel free to correct me.
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
>
> Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 28, 2006, at 20:36:42
In reply to Re: Do I have to take y'all outside?, posted by fayeroe on December 27, 2006, at 15:41:28
> > I will calm down when this matter is taken seriously and not made light of by asking us if you should take us all outside. Geeze my mother did do that, and beat the sh*t out of me until I couldn't stand anymore or sit for that matter for days.
> > Rules have been broken, and nothing is done except threatening to take us outside. If that abusive comment was meant to be funny, well it isn't to anyone who has been "taken outside" and was abused afterwards.
> >
> > I guess I expected more from a deputy.
>
>
> it's too bad when something like this is said, even if the deputy thought she was making a joke. as much hurt as there was in the thread, i don't see how making a joke would have helped anything anyway.
>
> there are numerous abuse victims here and everyone has heard that one many more times that they should have had to hear it.
>
> Happyflower, i am appalled, but not surprised, that you got blocked. it is the one size fits all remedy.
>
> i am proud of you for taking the stand that you took and support you, as i've said before, and will see you if you come back......xoxoxo pat
>((HF)) I am with Pat on this one. I would feel PUT DOWN by that ....ahem...joke post above apology or not. I am sorry for you hurt.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2006, at 20:51:40
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification to fayeroe » fayeroe, posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 19:32:45
>
> I think Lou was just trying to explain that a website which welcomes and attracts suicidal posters will have a higher mortality rate than one which bans suicidal posters...BECAUSE it attracts more of them in the first place. And if that doesn't make sense, an anology might be that a website for amateur skydivers will have a higher mortality rate than one for quilting bee enthusiasts. (Or watchers of adventure tv shows.) Whether or not the anology is a good one is uncertain, but that's the gist of it.
>
>
> (Please do correct me if I'm wrong, Lou. But I think this is what you're saying, because I read and understood Dr. Bob's statement the same way you did.)laima,
You wrote,[...because it attracts {>more< of them } in the first place...and if that doesn't make sense, an analogy..skydivers vs quilting bee enthusiasts...I..understand (Dr. Hsiung's)statement >the same way you did<,Lou...].
Thank you for letting me know that you see Dr. Hsiung's statement the same way that I do. And you are correct in thinking that that is what I meant, that if there is a forum that attracts those of that nature,then...
Another way of looking at he grammatical structure of Dr. Hsiung's statement could be in relation to any accusation made to the forum that it causes in any way suicides, and then the maker of the argument points to the fact that there have been members here that have committed suicide.
But looking again at the grammatical structure of Dr. Hsiung's statement;
[..attract suicidal posters(and thereby increase the incidence of suicide {in the group}...].
>First< there is an increase in the {number} of posters of that nature because the word {attract} is there. The grammatical meaning of {attract} is that others come to {the attraction},which {increases the number of , in this case, suicidal posters. Because there is an increase in the {number} of posters of that nature, then it could follow statistically, that the number of actual suicides could increase here, which is written in Dr. Hsiung's statement,{increase the number of suicides >{in the group}<.
My analogy, you saw, was one of IMO simplicity. I could give a much more comprehensive statistical analogy with correlation coefficiants and such. But is this the place for advanced statisitcs or epidemiology?
Then again, if bottomfeeder's interpretation is validated by Dr. Hsiung, that could reverse this entire matter.
Lou's twelth smilely>>[:-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 28, 2006, at 21:19:57
In reply to Re: Lou's request for clarification to fayeroe » Lou Pilder, posted by fayeroe on December 28, 2006, at 19:13:03
> this is a mental health forum. i'm not very interested in nascar forums/sky diving forums/deep sea fishing forums and i doubt that very many others are..........that's what i meant when i said there are too many "what ifs"........we could "what if" it til the cows come home. ......it's counterproductive to go off in seventy different directions.........
>
> i merely pointed out that we we discussing a very specific issue.
>
> and the explanation for "til the cows come home" is that it could be very late.........fayeroe,
You wrote,[...I'm not..interested..and I doubt that very many others are...it's counterproductive to go off in seventy different directions...cows...]
Well, one cannot always have interest in things that others do, but there could be the potential IMO for some others here to have an interest in NASCAR racing,skydiving,deep sea fishing,in as much that they could have some knowlege as to the hazardous nature of such, rather than to be an actual participant in those hobbies.
In my analogy here, the direction that I was intending to go was to answer the question directed to me concerning the possible interpretations to Dr. Hsiung's statement in question here. I directed my understanding of his statement in one direction. Bottomfeeder gave another direction. Liama agreed with the direction that I pointed to. Could you elaborate as to what you mean by 70 directions?
Lou
Posted by SLS on December 28, 2006, at 21:59:16
In reply to Re: Lou aspects of El's post, and others, etc, posted by madeline on December 28, 2006, at 12:13:46
Hi.
> It is THAT issue that on which I would like to see some clarification and accountability.
I am unclear as to what you mean here. Could you elaborate?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by madeline on December 29, 2006, at 10:01:40
In reply to Re: Lou aspects of El's post, and others, etc » madeline, posted by SLS on December 28, 2006, at 21:59:16
I think that the ability of posters to discuss suicide ideation and seek support to fight that ideation is a valuable component of babble. A lot of posters, including me, have received this support and it has really helped to move them toward a more hopeful place.
However, when you allow this kind of discussion you also open the door for all kinds of abuse of that support.
I think this kind of abuse is most acute when it is reference to the behavior of other posters or even the routine administration of the board.
For instance, I think it is appropriate for a poster to say that "you know, I feel very triggered when people don't do/say/act in the way that I want and I need some help working through this"
You see, that post elicits support and help from the other posters. No one feels put down or responsible for the way the poster is reacting. In fact, the door is opened for them to help the other poster.
What I think is not okay is when a poster says "What you said/did made me feel like committing suicide"
This is not a post asking for help, it makes people feel accused and directly responsible for the way that person feels. I don't think anyone could argue it is a not so subtle form of manipulation.
To me, it makes the other posters feel very hurt, unsafe, taken advantage of and coerced.
Also a characteristic of this form of communication is that it tends to escalate and repeat until the desired behaviour from people is achieved.
To me, threatening suicide in order to elicit a behaviour from someone clearly falls well below the civility requirements of babble and yet, to me, I haven't seen it addressed by the the powers that be (although it may have been).
If the powers agree with me, I would like to see a policy explicitly stated (restated) that covers suicide threats in reponse to other posters. I would also like to see the specific adminstrative action that could result from this kind of "offense".
Now, having said all this, I will add a caveat. It may allow people to completely write off my concerns as specific to me, or just as a function of some deficit on my part. My mother was the queen of this kind of coercion. Everything I said or did would lead to a suicide threat on her part - leading me to suspect that one day I would just finally kill my mother by simply being around.
That kind of responsiblity is simply too much for anyone to bear.
It may not be possible, but I would simply like to be free from this on babble.
Maddie
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2006, at 11:40:24
In reply to Re: clarification for SLS - trigger I think., posted by madeline on December 29, 2006, at 10:01:40
Hi Maddie.
Thanks for clarifying.
I'll have to think about that for awhile.
- Scott
> I think that the ability of posters to discuss suicide ideation and seek support to fight that ideation is a valuable component of babble. A lot of posters, including me, have received this support and it has really helped to move them toward a more hopeful place.
>
> However, when you allow this kind of discussion you also open the door for all kinds of abuse of that support.
>
> I think this kind of abuse is most acute when it is reference to the behavior of other posters or even the routine administration of the board.
>
> For instance, I think it is appropriate for a poster to say that "you know, I feel very triggered when people don't do/say/act in the way that I want and I need some help working through this"
>
> You see, that post elicits support and help from the other posters. No one feels put down or responsible for the way the poster is reacting. In fact, the door is opened for them to help the other poster.
>
> What I think is not okay is when a poster says "What you said/did made me feel like committing suicide"
>
> This is not a post asking for help, it makes people feel accused and directly responsible for the way that person feels. I don't think anyone could argue it is a not so subtle form of manipulation.
>
> To me, it makes the other posters feel very hurt, unsafe, taken advantage of and coerced.
>
> Also a characteristic of this form of communication is that it tends to escalate and repeat until the desired behaviour from people is achieved.
>
> To me, threatening suicide in order to elicit a behaviour from someone clearly falls well below the civility requirements of babble and yet, to me, I haven't seen it addressed by the the powers that be (although it may have been).
>
> If the powers agree with me, I would like to see a policy explicitly stated (restated) that covers suicide threats in reponse to other posters. I would also like to see the specific adminstrative action that could result from this kind of "offense".
>
> Now, having said all this, I will add a caveat. It may allow people to completely write off my concerns as specific to me, or just as a function of some deficit on my part. My mother was the queen of this kind of coercion. Everything I said or did would lead to a suicide threat on her part - leading me to suspect that one day I would just finally kill my mother by simply being around.
>
> That kind of responsiblity is simply too much for anyone to bear.
>
> It may not be possible, but I would simply like to be free from this on babble.
>
> Maddie
Posted by AuntieMel on December 29, 2006, at 15:47:07
In reply to (((((auntie mel))))) » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 28, 2006, at 14:07:59
Over your knee? Could be fun.
Thanks for understanding. And I'm doing fine, considering.
Posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 16:05:21
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » karen_kay, posted by AuntieMel on December 29, 2006, at 15:47:07
you reminded me a little of me when you posted that. and i understood it completely. geez, you try to liven a situation up a bit (and that can be very helpful btw. my husband and i fight all the time and sometimes in the middle of a fight i'll say something stupid and it helps. not that you said anything stupid. geez, i give up.
but, i felt bad for you anyway. doesn't seem fair that someone tries to help and it gets taken the wrong way completely. see, you may feel a bit better now, because everyone'll say i'm being insensitive. (grunt)
back to that spanking.....
kk
Posted by Declan on December 29, 2006, at 16:35:34
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 16:05:21
We couldn't have, like, a Spanking Board, could we?
How would it work?
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 29, 2006, at 16:47:34
In reply to Re: Ooohhhhh » AuntieMel, posted by karen_kay on December 29, 2006, at 16:05:21
> you reminded me a little of me when you posted that. and i understood it completely. geez, you try to liven a situation up a bit (and that can be very helpful btw. my husband and i fight all the time and sometimes in the middle of a fight i'll say something stupid and it helps. not that you said anything stupid. geez, i give up.
>
> but, i felt bad for you anyway. doesn't seem fair that someone tries to help and it gets taken the wrong way completely. see, you may feel a bit better now, because everyone'll say i'm being insensitive. (grunt)
>
> back to that spanking.....
>
> kkFriends,
It is written here,[...g*ez, you try to liven up a situation...it gets >taken the wrong way {completly}<...back to that...].
I have a different point of view to the aspects of this and could email with anyone if they like to see my perspective.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.