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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 60 to 84 of 272. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on January 12, 2006, at 22:58:15
In reply to Re: Why not start now?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2006, at 22:52:31
I did read the entire thread. I guess "extreme" is relative. :-)
Bob
*** Stubborn as a frikken mule someone is.
Posted by wildcard on January 12, 2006, at 22:59:34
In reply to Re: Why not start now?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2006, at 22:52:31
So any chance on lessening the block re: Larry if you feel extreme is relative?? That would definitely start the process of change....
Posted by muffled on January 12, 2006, at 22:59:53
In reply to Re: Why not start now? » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on January 12, 2006, at 22:58:15
> I did read the entire thread. I guess "extreme" is relative. :-)
>
> Bob
>
> *** Stubborn as a frikken mule someone is.So do I get blocked now? I feel bad inside.
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2006, at 23:50:30
In reply to Re: Why not start now?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2006, at 22:52:31
I've spent quite some time writing and deleting posts, Dr. Bob.
I'm not really in favor of voting for block lengths, because it isn't fair for administrating to become a popularity contest.
But...
I don't know. It's tough what you do. I certainly appreciate that you already showed flexibility in not doubling Lar's block.
But I feel like the problem may be a bit too much automation in the administrative action process. Not always, certainly. I think when the board goes up in flames, you tend to be a bit lenient in imposing blocks. And I guess you are using your judgement there. That you realize that things got out of control and people may have been swept along with the tide. But maybe you could use a bit more judgement and flexibility before the board goes up in flames as well.
You know the long term posters, Dr. Bob. And I would suspect that you know what sort of difficulties different posters manage to get into with the civility guidelines. Because there is a great deal of difference between intending to be uncivil, and not understanding the guidelines, and any number of steps in between.
I thought your idea of imposing a civility monitor instead of a block was interesting. I think it might be more reasonable if it were sort of like auto-asterisking. If during your probation period you decide not to send a post by the monitor, it would make the penalty for an uncivil post more severe. But so that not every lighthearted post needs to be run by the monitor.
If someone appears not to understand the guidelines, wouldn't a please rephrase make more sense? And maybe asking posters to help the person with that guideline?
I know I'm asking a lot of you. To exercise *more* judgement, and run the risk of *more* anger. And maybe that's not even the best thing for the community.
I just don't know.
Posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:27:33
In reply to Re: Why not start now?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2006, at 22:52:31
>I think the community has shown a lot of support for Larry.
Because he was treated unfaily. Because he's a truly compassionate, supportive, loving person who shows others genuine concern, even when the rest of us have run out of patience.
Because you know you could turn this site over to him to run, pay him to do it, and it would be a GOOD thing.
When a poster is blocked and the resulting block is obviously in violation of the rules, no one really bothers to show up on Admin. to bitch about it.
It's when you subjectively hand out blocks, inconsistently determining their lengths (seemingly shorter lengths of time for those who are very practiced in kissing your *ss just the way you like it to be kissed, and longer lengths for those who don't see 'civility' and *ss-kissing as mutually exclusive), that most of us have the problem stomaching what you've done.
I've been blocked both ways. One time resulted in an outpouring of posts on Admin.; the other, there was silence on Admin., because I did deserve the block and it was very obvious.
I still got hugs, etc. on social, but no one was here on Admin. trying to get the block I truly deserved shortened or reversed. Nor should they have been!
As a parent, punishment must be handed down to children in a consistent and fair manner in order for them to understand the purpose of having consequenses/punishments.
If I beat my child today for spilling a glass of milk, but merely ground her from handling matches for setting the neighbor's house on fire tomorrow, the child will be confused because the level of punishments are inconsistent with the behaviors needing to be addressed. Eventually the child will grow to resent the poor parenting skills and have no respect for the parent, discounting (parental) authourity completely.
We're talking basic psycholgy, here, aren't we? And I'm really pissed because 'The Doctor' doesn't care to see this. Are you one of those people who are too smart to have any common sense? Or is all of this just a big experiment for your students to make observations and practice diagnosis? Fodder for a chapter or two in your book-- we write it for you but don't get acknowledged or compensated?
The lack of trust I have for you regarding your motives stems from all the inconsistencies I've seen here.
For the sake of your students, I hope your classrooms are run more efficiently and fairly than babble. And if they're not, then kids, feel free to take a road trip to Springfield, so you may each bring me the bottle of Spumanti you now owe me. ;~}
>Do you think it would be better if the lengths of blocks were voted on?BIG FAT NO! If you want to be in charge, don't pass the buck. There are people who come here thinking this is a safe place for them, if no other reason than because you're a shrink, a percieved authority. Turn the place over to the babblers, and you've destroyed your perception of safeness. Might as well pull the plug.
P.S. Bobster, I would have thought your offer to me of a full scholorship would have arrived by now... ROFLPMP!!!
Posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 11:36:27
In reply to Bobster:, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:27:33
sarcastic smart*ss way..lol That's why you're loved. Who's been blocked recently that no one spoke up about??
Posted by muffled on January 13, 2006, at 11:37:13
In reply to Bobster:, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:27:33
Posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:51:16
In reply to You say things in such a » crazy teresa, posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 11:36:27
Posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:52:47
In reply to You say things in such a » crazy teresa, posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 11:36:27
Posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 11:54:05
In reply to I'm not trying to be smart, just truthful. (nm), posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:51:16
Posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 11:55:54
In reply to I don't know. Guess I REALLY deserved that block! (nm) » wildcard, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:52:47
Posted by muffled on January 13, 2006, at 12:00:51
In reply to I don't know. Guess I REALLY deserved that block! (nm) » wildcard, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:52:47
Don't want you to go away. :-(
Posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 12:17:51
In reply to I don't know. Guess I REALLY deserved that block! (nm) » wildcard, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:52:47
Posted by verne on January 13, 2006, at 17:22:54
In reply to Bobster:, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:27:33
Good points. I agree completely.
Perhaps the real purpose of this site is to evaluate how we mice deal with rules and punishment. How some of us go postal, others stockholm, over arbitrary enforcement and capricious interpretation of the rules.
To scare up more drinking money, I used to participate in experiments at the university's cognitive lab. Later (over drinks with the psych people) I discovered that the purpose of an experiment wasn't always obvious and had less to do with the subject at hand and more to do with how I reacted to some sort of interference, annoyance, or interruption during the testing.
We can't see the maze for the maze.
Verne
Posted by sleepygirl on January 13, 2006, at 18:04:56
In reply to Lab Rats » crazy teresa, posted by verne on January 13, 2006, at 17:22:54
that sounds like a great job! I want to sign up for that! (wiggles nose and sniffs cheese)
Do I get to shock someone? Do I?! Please!Do we really think Dr. Bob is so Machiavellian?
Maybe he's just being Dr. Bob.
What's that you say? - brown nose? maybe, but a community with a balance of freedom (as should come along with humanity) and the structure necessary for 'civil' (at worst) discourse I imagine must be hard to manage.It could be part of an experiment...maybe. It's an important consideration before one participates in such a forum, anything about informed consent before you sign up?...probably
makes me hesitant to say too much here sure...running out of places to stop self evaluating and just be - but that's my problem well.....everywhere :-)
Posted by wildcard on January 13, 2006, at 18:21:11
In reply to Bobster:, posted by crazy teresa on January 13, 2006, at 11:27:33
>>>It's when you subjectively hand out blocks, inconsistently determining their lengths (seemingly shorter lengths of time for those who are very practiced in kissing your *ss
*****I won't name any specific posters but I have noticed a bit of brown nosing myself that *appears* to get certain things they do overlooked. JMO
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2006, at 2:28:28
In reply to Re: Why not start now? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 12, 2006, at 23:50:30
> I've spent quite some time writing and deleting posts, Dr. Bob.
I know, and I appreciate it.
> You know the long term posters, Dr. Bob. And I would suspect that you know what sort of difficulties different posters manage to get into with the civility guidelines. Because there is a great deal of difference between intending to be uncivil, and not understanding the guidelines, and any number of steps in between.
Long term posters know the guidelines, too... And say I did know someone tended to get too tough with tough love. What then?
> I thought your idea of imposing a civility monitor instead of a block was interesting. I think it might be more reasonable if it were sort of like auto-asterisking. If during your probation period you decide not to send a post by the monitor, it would make the penalty for an uncivil post more severe. But so that not every lighthearted post needs to be run by the monitor.
But wouldn't that just be business as usual? It's already an option to run something by someone else...
> If someone appears not to understand the guidelines, wouldn't a please rephrase make more sense? And maybe asking posters to help the person with that guideline?
If someone doesn't understand the guidelines, maybe they could ask for help?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2006, at 15:00:16
In reply to Re: Why not start now?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2006, at 2:28:28
> Long term posters know the guidelines, too... And say I did know someone tended to get too tough with tough love. What then?
Then you realize that posting with love, particularly between two posters with an established positive relationship, does *not* deserve a six week punishment. It may deserve a one week cooling off period, perhaps with a reminder that no matter how much we may want to help others, there's only so much we can do.
Dr. Bob, you know that I am not against long blocks. My main problem with long term blocks is that they're capped at one year. But I think they should be limited in imposition. If a poster is clearly saying *^%& you to your authority, or to the civility rules, I think longer blocks are in order. But if a poster gets in an argument with you over what's right and what's not right, and perhaps in that argument racks up a couple of weeks of deserved blocks, but comes back and tries to comply with the civility guidelines, doesn't push the envelope, posts with charity to other posters, and then a fair period of time later comes afoul of the civility rules again, for example out of an excess of caring, passion, and a desire to help, why should that poster get a long block? Why not a one week cooling off block?
If said poster comes off that one week block, and immediately does the same thing again, a longer block would clearly be in order, because I've never actually opposed the near universal Babble rule of "If you do what Dr. Bob (or his deputies) *just* told you not to do, you're in for an automatic block, or doubling of the block, or whatever." Because you own this site, Dr. Bob. And you have a right to set rules and expect them to be respected. Even if we may not individually agree with those rules.
Do you understand any of what I'm trying to say?
Posted by wildcard on January 15, 2006, at 15:31:03
In reply to Posting with love » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2006, at 15:00:16
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2006, at 23:32:16
In reply to Posting with love » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2006, at 15:00:16
> > Long term posters know the guidelines, too... And say I did know someone tended to get too tough with tough love. What then?
>
> posting with love, particularly between two posters with an established positive relationship, does *not* deserve a six week punishment. It may deserve a one week cooling off period, perhaps with a reminder that no matter how much we may want to help others, there's only so much we can do.I think there are two questions, whether to block him and if so, for how long. Do we agree on the first, at least?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2006, at 14:58:08
In reply to Re: guest expert, posted by Dr. Bob on January 12, 2006, at 2:00:13
> So that's one vote for Kali and one for John?
Does it have to be one or the other?
I'd be interested to hear what both have to say...
Posted by Toph on January 18, 2006, at 10:16:57
In reply to Posting with love » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 15, 2006, at 15:00:16
...But if a poster gets in an argument with you over what's right and what's not right, and perhaps in that argument racks up a couple of weeks of deserved blocks, but comes back and tries to comply with the civility guidelines, doesn't push the envelope, posts with charity to other posters, and then a fair period of time later comes afoul of the civility rules again, for example out of an excess of caring, passion, and a desire to help, why should that poster get a long block? ...>
>I hope I'm not going off on too great a tangent here Dinah, your argument as ever is logical and pursuasive. But you seem to be talking about a scenario where posters break civility rules who have the capacity to constrain themselves. I have always wondered about the inherently unsupportive nature of punishing posters whose emotional problems impair their ability to remain civil in the moment. Isn't it fair to assume that by not making differential analyses of the emotional state of the offenders, people who benefit greatly from this mental health environment are sent away?
I know that the problem with this criticism is that it is not constructive, it lacks a proposed improvement. PB has to be safe, so there has to be consequences for people who offend or attack others. It just strikes me that if I had been punished for everytime I acted uncivil in therapy, I would not have eventually benefited from treatment and likely would be in an institution somewhere.
Posted by verne on January 18, 2006, at 11:26:08
In reply to Re: Posting with love » Dinah, posted by Toph on January 18, 2006, at 10:16:57
I agree Toph, I'd be in a locked ward without windows if therapy worked the way this site does.
I can understand a short block, perhaps, a week. Anything longer goes way past anything like therapy, or even the smooth operation of the site. Simple removal of offending posts is another option.
So I come back to the idea that the purpose of this site seems to be punishment and how the "community" and individual respond.
Perhaps, someone thought, "Gee, what if we invent a game based on language with strict rules and penalities? And what if we attract a group, like the mentally ill, who have the most trouble with language?
And then let's see how they react to being expelled from the game for as long as a year. Let's not forgive them for past infractions, doubling and tripling subsequent blocks, and see how they cope with being "on probation".
It's a good game. Wittgenstein would probably be proud. But let's not mistake it for therapy.
Verne
Posted by wildcard on January 18, 2006, at 11:31:53
In reply to A Mouse Goes over the Wall, posted by verne on January 18, 2006, at 11:26:08
This was my entire point from the beginning but ya'll word it much better. Re: Larry's block~ 6 weeks is BS. Re: Muffled and the word f*rt~BS for even a week but yes, a week is USUALLY enough time for the majority of posters here and these blocks cause more harm than good. IMO..now I'm saying bye. ;-)
Posted by Dinah on January 18, 2006, at 18:28:42
In reply to Re: Posting with love » Dinah, posted by Toph on January 18, 2006, at 10:16:57
This isn't therapy. We aren't trained professionals. If someone is so ill that they can't control their reactions, is this necessarily the best place for them to be? Wouldn't it be better for them to be in therapy or in medication consultations with trained professionals?
I think it's really important to remember what Babble just can't be, as well as the wonderful things it is.
Should blocking always be considered a punishment? Isn't there more than one way to view it?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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