![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 197. Go back in thread:
Posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 19:22:36
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » so, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 19:12:32
> Try your proposed governmental post & see what happens. There's one easy way to find out!
If I were to learn that some people are allowed to make certain statements about government policies but that I am not allowed to make identical statements, or to make similar statements to the contrary about the same policies, it could have a detremental effect both on my mental health and on my ability to provide support and information at this forum.
> As to your earlier question about how to use sharp wit, consider your point and your sarcasm well taken, although I personally am not certain whether you were just trying to be funny & clever or whether you were trying to make fun of the person who wrote <snort.>
>
> Can you clarify which it was?It could be neither of the alternatives you present, but more likely a product of the articulate manner you described in which I try to avoid all appearance of or implication of impropriety while still holding open the capacity to understand other writing as witty if that is how it was intended. It was an effort to present a lack of clear understanding of the meaning and especially a failure to recognize which side of a debate was the object of apparently colloquial writing you describe as humor.
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 12, 2005, at 19:23:39
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » TofuEmmy, posted by partlycloudy on June 12, 2005, at 10:18:22
I've done an extensive search via Google for the "many" times I have been mean and unsupportive to you or anyone. Unfortunately, what I found instead were pages of supportive and silly posts, with a handfull of "bitchy" ones. I found a post where I supported your efforts to quit drinking. I found one where I supported your first ever post on the Faith board, and came to your aid after someone criticized it.
I've been on Babble for a long time. I think I've been a compassionate poster fairly consistantly. I'm sorry that you see me as "bad" and mean. But, I don't think I'll be able to change your opinion. I have looked in Google for the facts, and from what I found, your post is not based on the facts, but on emotion. I can't change the way you feel about me.
I think we are more alike than not. We both will come to the aid of our friends, and fight for what we believe is right and just. I admire that in you, and wish you the best.
emmy
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 19:24:08
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » so, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 19:12:32
>
> Someone with such rigorous control over language as you present should surely be able to posit your beliefs in a manner which not only elucidates each premise in a clear (if somewhat verbiose) fashion but also avoids the appearance of any impropriety.
>
Though my grasp of the language isn't nearly as good as So's, it's fairly good, and I find the rules very confusing. Just today I saw someone being thanked by Dr. Bob for telling a poster "She was a bit rough on" another poster. I agree with her, and I agree with her right to say it, but that statement could have easily earned someone else a block at a different time.
Consider Pax's year long block (with no preceding warning) just last week for saying "I think that's irresponsible of you guys" I really wanted to ask Dr. Bob for clarification, but didn't want to add any more fuel to the flames here.Sorry for being off Topic Emmy.
Posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 20:11:56
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen, posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 19:22:36
so,
I apparently misinterpreted your statement about the <snort.> To me, it appeared that it could be possibly construed as a "stand up comedy" type of commuique, in which the author seizes a certain phrase or word from the audience and "riffs" on it to showcase a verbal skill and wit.Or it could possibly have been, I surmised, a veiled attack on another poster, an attack which at once denigrades the person being mocked and highlights the literary and grammatical skills of the mocker.
Obviously I feel relief that it was not choice b, as do, I'm sure, the other posters here. And I hope you feel nothing but pleasure that your consummate verbal skills elicit the implicit praise that would come from even assuming you MIGHT be engaging in choice a.
But something in your posting style leads me to surmise that you, in fact, might NOT be irrevocably harmed if posting rules appeared to apply to you in a way that differs from the application to other posters. Forgive me if I once again misinterpret, but it seems that you possess a certain mental fortitude which innoculates you against any such attempts.
In which ways would the support you mention be reduced?
J
Posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 20:19:31
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » JenStar, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 19:24:08
I don't think it's off topic. I agree, it is sometimes hard to tell when someone else will get a warning, a block, or nothing. However, I have a pretty good feel for MY posts -- what will get a warning. I think it's pretty hard to put all of the ins & outs into words. I think intent is factored in there too, as well as the words themselves. Do you have a "feel" for your own posts, or are you sometimes concerned about what you can & can't say with safety?
JenStar
Posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 20:55:41
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » so, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 20:11:56
>Forgive me if I once again misinterpret, but it seems that you possess a certain mental fortitude which innoculates you against any such attempts.
Dialectic ability is not necessarily evidence of mental fortitude, and neither are absolute evidence of broad social skills. The risk to myself is that, if I apply an unusual amount of mental energy to a matter and am frustrated in my efforts, especially by something I don't understand, the energy doesn't always just dissipate -- the increased alertness can then turn toward another object or even in on myself in ways that might not be productive, possibly depending on other circumstances that might introduce other stressors in my life beyond what results from participating in this forum.
Your querry makes me wonder, though, if the administrator harbors a belief that I might be less susceptible to injury than some others might be.
> In which ways would the support you mention be reduced?
>
>
> JIf I were to post that opposition drug laws is "hypocritical" or "a joke" or even that the laws as they stand are "hypocritical" "pathetic" or "a joke" as a means of testing what is allowed without first asking, and were blocked from posting for a period of time as a result, I would not be able to provide support and information during that period of time. Perhaps the test you propose would best be administered by someone in the employ of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, who might have a deeper interest in discerning whether tolerance for the statements comprised a political position but who is not as interested in providing support for certain people whose views might not be the most popular in this forum, and who might be more directly effected by claims that their life's work is "hypocritical" or "a joke".
Posted by Jai Narayan on June 12, 2005, at 21:01:27
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » Gabbi-x-2, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 20:19:31
I am on PC as well
I love babble for all the wonderful people and Dr. Bob.
He's intelligent and sensitive.
I like PC because I never get a PBC...
some of the threads go missing and locked down.each site has it's own way of trying to control people.
Dr. B approaches the person
Dr. J goes for the thread
each one wants people to feel welcomed and safe.
I guess the rule of the day is peace is the most important thing.I have noticed that each site has wonderful people on them.
now how to address the problem of people breaking the rules on each site.
Emmy should not be posted to if she has clearly stated that she did not want to be posted to.
What is wrong here?
why is that person on babble doing this to her?
I don't get it?
Emmy that must be irritating.
that does need to be addressed.I have found myself in conflict on the babble site and on PC site...people will be people.
it's no easier on either site.
conflict is a struggle.I guess that's my Zen of it.
J.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 21:21:00
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » Gabbi-x-2, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 20:19:31
> I don't think it's off topic. I agree, it is sometimes hard to tell when someone else will get a warning, a block, or nothing. However, I have a pretty good feel for MY posts -- what will get a warning. I think it's pretty hard to put all of the ins & outs into words. I think intent is factored in there too, as well as the words themselves. Do you have a "feel" for your own posts, or are you sometimes concerned about what you can & can't say with safety?
>
Well I did have concern for sure. I was blocked once which baffled me, and a second time for something I thought was dicey but I'd patterned after someone who didn't get blocked. There was a while, about a year ago where I thought people were being treated very harshly and inconsistantly, and it did stop me from posting here for quite a while.
Fairly recently it seemed to have eased up, but that's nerve wracking to me too, because I wonder if the rules have changed, or if the axe could fall at any minute. After seeing someone get *thanked* for a post that would have had me blocked..and several uncivil posts go unchecked.. and then Pax's *block* (I wish we had italics here so I could quit using asterisks..)
yeah, I've lost pretty much any feel for what is okay besides the most banal.
The idea of being blocked doesn't really bother me, except if I think it's unfair, then it's the unfairness I dislike. If I were a new poster though I'd be extremely wary, when I was new, the thought of getting a P.B.C mortified me.
I respect someone who is very careful to find out what is okay before they post, It shows a desire to contribute within the boundaries, and that's not an easy thing to do on your own.
When I found it to unpredictable, I gave up.
Posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 21:45:55
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » JenStar, posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 20:55:41
Well, I doubt that we'll ever get any "open" DEA agents here! This just doesn't seem like the kind of forum in which they might choose to participate, no?
I think I must have completely missed the statements that included the words hypocrite and/or joke. It seems to really be a concern for you, because you keep mentioning it. Can you refer again to the initial post? I'd like to read it now. My interest is piqued after seeing you refer to it so many times!
Also, why don't you join us over on social from time to time? You seem interesting. Come chat for a while & don't worry about the rules so much!
JenStar
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 22:07:01
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen, posted by Jai Narayan on June 12, 2005, at 21:01:27
> Emmy should not be posted to if she has clearly stated that she did not want to be posted to.
> What is wrong here?
> Emmy that must be irritating.**It would be incredibly irritating, and to not have it addressed would only add to that.
Furthermore, any inferences that you (Emmy) or Zen would have been treated with more respect if you had been more supportive, or been here longer, offend *me*
Zen had been here since almost the beginning, she had many loyal friends, and I remember her going out of her way for me to find out information on a rare medication I was starting
when I couldn't, and I barely knew her.
She was blocked for 24 weeks for swearing.. for saying sh*t. There is no fairness in that.
Emmy, I've never seen you as mean, I've never even seen you as b*tchy (though I'll take your word for it ;) I remember you being funny, and supportive, but I never saw mean.
And I know you didn't mean your post to be a comparison of P.Central and Babble, it didn't cross my mind, and I'm confused as to why it came up at all.(((Emmy)))
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 12, 2005, at 22:15:09
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen--Emmy, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 22:07:01
Oh Gabbi! :-) You just don't know how much your post means to me. I needed one person to tell me that they don't think I am completely evil. Thank you!
(And thank you for telling me about Silky Underwear from Lush! It's great!)
Hugs, emmy
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2005, at 22:51:07
In reply to How to build a Zen, posted by TofuEmmy on June 12, 2005, at 10:01:47
> I issued a Do Not Post request to a user here. This user has now posted to me THREE times. I sent this information to Bob with all the url’s for him to view. Nothing happened. Imagine how that made me feel. Angry? Hurt? Unprotected?…definitely!
A critical factor in a Do Not Post request, for it to be binding, is that harassment is evident.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#harassed
Rules 1 and 2 *require* harassment. Holding differing opinions about third parties does not fit the definition for harassment. Nor does my failing to heed her requirement that I modify my behaviour towards a third party (not even on the Babble site). Defiance is not harassment. See the original "Do not post" request:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050330/msgs/478945.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050330/msgs/478960.htmlThe original request does not meet the harassment requirement. All that might flow from it, is moot. One person's discomfort ought not to become a burden placed on another. Disagreement alone is insufficient grounds.
I have tried (and failed) to do the honourable thing, out of respect, but this is receiving far too much attention, IMHO. I have apologized, repeatedly. I shall not let it happen again, notwithstanding the lack of regulatory support for the request.
Humbly,
Lar
Posted by Dinah on June 12, 2005, at 23:04:52
In reply to Re: How to follow the harassment policy, posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2005, at 22:51:07
I don't think Dr. Bob has required harassment to be present to uphold the do not post requirement. The only thing I remember him saying is that you can't DNP in response to a post that was to someone else entirely and didn't affect you, and I'm not even sure of that. It's just a vague recollection.
He seems to be allowing and upholding DNP requests in a broad range of circumstances.
Just fyi, and Dr. Bob will correct me (I'm sure) if I'm wrong.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 23:09:41
In reply to Re: How to follow the harassment policy » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on June 12, 2005, at 23:04:52
> I don't think Dr. Bob has required harassment to be present to uphold the do not post requirement.
I'm sure of that too, I've had one upheld that would not be considered to be legal harassment.
Though, I think what is considered harassment should be up to the person who issued the D.N.P.
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 12, 2005, at 23:25:00
In reply to Re: How to follow the harassment policy » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on June 12, 2005, at 23:04:52
If Larry had a problem with the DNP, he should have brought it up in April and stated that he is simply unwilling to abide by it. We could have hashed it out then with Dr. Bob.
I need, for my own mental health, to stop all contact from Larry. Is that not my perogative here? There is no Ignore button available. Isn't the DNP rule to protect us from posters we don't want contacting us? I am unable to respond in a civil fashion to Larry. So, the DNP prevents further disruption of the board.
If too much attention has been paid to this (in Larry's opinion) - had he not posted to me, there would be no such attention. If he would stop posting to me and/or about me, all the attention would disappear. Simple. I'd like that please.
emmy
Posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 23:26:44
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » so, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 21:45:55
> I think I must have completely missed the statements that included the words hypocrite and/or joke. It seems to really be a concern for you, because you keep mentioning it. Can you refer again to the initial post? I'd like to read it now.
Look on the Political board under the thread about legalization and decriminalization. The phrases to which you refer can be found in the first few posts of that thread. Given 48 hours without a response from an administrator who did find time during those same hours to design tee-shirts for partygoers, I will add to my list of statements that are sometimes allowed of some group members "callous contempt" and "sick joke".
> Well, I doubt that we'll ever get any "open" DEA agents here! This just doesn't seem like the kind of forum in which they might choose to participate, no?I don't know. Maybe I should invite one and find out. Though government agencies are reluctant to interfere in matters involving free speech, (even though the freedom to write that way in this forum is very unusual) participation here might fall within the mission of the Demand Reduction Program which is "to provide timely, accurate, and persuasive information to varieties of audiences in order to build support for effective drug enforcement; to educate the public about the dangers of drugs and the effects of drug abuse on the nation; and to reach community leaders, parents, teachers, counselors, and employees in the workplace in order to educate them about implementing drug prevention and education programs."
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/demand.htm
>
> Also, why don't you join us over on social from time to time? You seem interesting. Come chat for a while & don't worry about the rules so much!
>
> JenStarWhen I see something there that interests me, I occassionally post there. I'm not a person who spends a lot of time in casual conversation. If I am heavily involved in this board, I might not have much time --- or energy -- to spend anywhere besides something that pays or promotes a goal that is important to me.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 23:31:50
In reply to Re: How to follow the harassment policy, posted by Larry Hoover on June 12, 2005, at 22:51:07
>
> A critical factor in a Do Not Post request, for it to be binding, is that harassment is evident.Different Link..
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050517/msgs/504152.htmlOne person's discomfort ought not to become a burden placed on another.
***I'm astonished by that comment, and I hope I've misunderstood.
Posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 23:32:07
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen, posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 23:26:44
If you don't mind my asking, what is it about the rules of the board that so intrigue you? You said that you're not much into casual conversation. But why are you so interested in the administration of this board, if you're not really interested in participating in it (in the social disucssions) all that much? I guess I just don't "get" that.
Curious again...
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 23:41:55
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen, posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 23:26:44
OK, I found the thread. I guess to me, it seems that political discussions are going to be extremely heated and passionate. It almost seems (again, to me) that having a political debate on this kind of board is going to be extremely difficult, b/c when people get heated up about politics they generally use words or phrases that offend someone. For some reason, politics seems to enrage almost everyone at some point!
I like to debate about politics, but I often get too zealous about it (even with family & friends - or maybe ESPECIALLY with family & friends) and end up saying things I don't really want to say.
I guess that people have to be really savvy about formal debate-like rules in order to have a political discussion and not get bent out of shape, mad, or end up saying something offensive. You know, like the high school & college debates. But most people don't know how to debate like that, so it often gets heated.
Still, though, I guess I didn't feel offended at all when I read those posts. I just tried to "read through" the words & see what people were trying to say. I think that's really important when discussing politics.
Are you really interested in politics? Is that why you post mostly on that board?
JenStar
Posted by so on June 12, 2005, at 23:55:03
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » so, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 23:41:55
> Still, though, I guess I didn't feel offended at all when I read those posts. I just tried to "read through" the words & see what people were trying to say.Well, maybe it's not obvious but i did that too. i took issue with the fact that some people can use that language in reference to some things, but others can't. Allowing it for some can tend to encourage other's to think it is permissible in other matters. I don't see how it is permissible to call laws against certain drugs pathetic, but not permissible to refer to administration of certain drugs for certain conditions using similar language. And when people are labeled uncivil by a psyciatrist for using terms that are disallowed for some but allowed for others, well, I feel inspired to support those people tenaciously.
> Are you really interested in politics? Is that why you post mostly on that board?
>
> JenStarI'm probably more interested in culture, but not so much the violins and grand piano sort of culture -- more the human interaction sort of culture. I'm interested in politics for its cultural implications and sometimes think politics is an outlet for people who might not enjoy as much cultural freedom as they are rhetorically presumed to enjoy.
Posted by so on June 13, 2005, at 0:11:39
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » so, posted by JenStar on June 12, 2005, at 23:32:07
> If you don't mind my asking, what is it about the rules of the board that so intrigue you?
I am interested in widespread impressions that they are not consistently applied and that despite thousands of words explaining ambiguities, they are not clearly understood and perhaps not clearly defined.
> You said that you're not much into casual conversation. But why are you so interested in the administration of this board, if you're not really interested in participating in it (in the social disucssions) all that much? I guess I just don't "get" that.Reading can be participation. I've read quite a bit of the board. It seems reasonable to me that I avail myself of an opportunity to participate in discussion of administration of a forum that I read extensively.
When I do participate by writing to the board, "social" wouldn't be my first stop. Bifurcation of treatment approaches so that chemical treatments are considered "biological" and "psychological" approaches are excluded from a "biological" forum probably confounds most of my efforts to participate in the parts of the board that most interest me. I would be more interested in biological elements of phsychological engagement.
I delete much of what I write to the boards before it goes to the network -- I still get the benefit of exploring my thoughts by writing them out. I thought about posting to the main board - the drugs board -- asking when SSRI manufacturers started including "thoughts of suicide" warnings in their advertisements, but I realized there were other places to obtain accurate information without the need to participate in a lengthy discussion about people's various opinions, and probably not a lot I could contribute on the matter that would advance the discussion as it has progressed here.
>
> Curious again...
> JenStar
>
Posted by All Done on June 13, 2005, at 0:37:52
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen--Emmy » Gabbi-x-2, posted by TofuEmmy on June 12, 2005, at 22:15:09
> Oh Gabbi! :-) You just don't know how much your post means to me. I needed one person to tell me that they don't think I am completely evil. Thank you!
>
> (And thank you for telling me about Silky Underwear from Lush! It's great!)
>
> Hugs, emmyI guess I took it for granted that you and everyone would know I don't think you're completely evil. Not even a bit. And not mean, either. And I'll be very disappointed if anyone is allowed to say that about you or anyone else here at Babble.
I've always seen you as kind, caring, supportive, and sometimes a bit silly. I know you speak out on issues that are important to you. Maybe that makes some people uncomfortable, but I've always admired the way you get your point across while remaining within the civility guidelines. That's not always an easy thing to do when viewpoints differ on something or someone you deeply care about and/or believe in.
You're a very special person. I'm glad we're friends.
Now, about that underwear...how do I get on that list for recommendations? Gabbi?? ;)
Big hugs, emmy.
Laurie
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2005, at 5:33:05
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen, posted by so on June 13, 2005, at 0:11:39
> Bifurcation of treatment approaches so that chemical treatments are considered "biological" and "psychological" approaches are excluded from a "biological" forum probably confounds most of my efforts to participate in the parts of the board that most interest me. I would be more interested in biological elements of phsychological engagement.
Yes, thats an interesting topic. I have had a bit of trouble before with posting 'psychology' type responses to people over on the meds board. And I guess the converse too. And what if you want to discuss the pros / cons of alternative versus traditional treatments - the alternative board or the main babble board?
Posted by partlycloudy on June 13, 2005, at 5:48:25
In reply to Re: How to build a Zen » partlycloudy, posted by TofuEmmy on June 12, 2005, at 19:23:39
Regarding your search for how I've been treated by you in the past, Emmy:
I've had emails, babblemails, and communication from you on Psych Central that were equally as hurtful as the few that you turned up here - and none of these would have shown up on your extensive google search. I'm saying this just to point out that I've been treated consistently - not only at this forum via posting, but in all our communications. It has taken me a long time to be able to stand up for myself. I haven't been successful at doing so without hurting you in kind, and for that I am truly sorry.Also, FWIW, I never said that you're evil. I have only used your own words to describe yourself. I do lash out when I'm upset, and that has earned me many PBC's here, which I've deserved.
I agree that we are alike in many ways. I wish that you would post on more boards here (like Substance and Books). I hope that we can go forward on a more even footing and help each other.
pc
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 13, 2005, at 7:33:32
In reply to Re: How to follow the harassment policy » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 12, 2005, at 23:31:50
> >
> > A critical factor in a Do Not Post request, for it to be binding, is that harassment is evident.
>
> Different Link..
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050517/msgs/504152.html> One person's discomfort ought not to become a burden placed on another.
>
> ***I'm astonished by that comment, and I hope I've misunderstood.Allow me to rephrase. Person A should not suffer a block merely because person B is in high dudgeon.
Lar
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