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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 159 to 183 of 255. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:11:49
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 1:38:06
BTW, Gabbi. You're right.
Posting here about the experience has taken something that felt purely positive and made it feel sad. We didn't intend or want to exclude anyone. And my efforts to make those who couldn't have come feel part of the experience have apparently just backfired.
Now I just can't feel very good about it.
But I learned a valuable lesson for next year.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:19:35
In reply to Re: values » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:06:40
In fact even I would be tempted to post on a nonviewable board for things that i didn't want to be seen.
I don't think there are any left, but if there were...
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 8:39:59
In reply to Re: values » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:06:40
> Everyone was invited, if everyone had showed up it would have been great.
>
> Gabbi-x-2In some ways, yes, but...
> a private board where they don't have to be afraid of their therapist or boss running across the site would probably bring a lot of new posters
>
> DinahWell, their therapist or boss still *might* be there...
Bob
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 9:04:20
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:11:49
> BTW, Gabbi. You're right.
aww, Cr*p, I wondered, that's how I would have felt too. I didn't agree with the comparison in the first place, and I think it would have been thoughtful to leave what was such a happy experience for you guys alone for awhile.
> Posting here about the experience has taken something that felt purely positive and made it feel sad. We didn't intend or want to exclude anyone. And my efforts to make those who couldn't have come feel part of the experience have apparently just backfired.
>
> Now I just can't feel very good about it.
>
> But I learned a valuable lesson for next year.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:26:22
In reply to Re: values, posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 8:39:59
Please, Dr. Bob. You know as well as I do that the chances, already low, would still go down exponentially from having a publicly open and googleable board.
Nikki has strong feelings about this. And so might others. It might be good to request input from those who might feel more comfortable posting if the board weren't readable by anyone with internet access.
For myself, I've already spilled my secrets.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:40:04
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 9:04:20
I felt a bit hurt this morning that what I meant to be attempts to include those who couldn't make it weren't universally received in that spirit.
However, I'm also feeling unusually resilient right now, and I think I'll manage to put it in perspective. Some posters understood and appreciated what I was trying to do, and some didn't.
You can't please all the Babblers all the time, I suppose. Especially in such a delicate situation.
I am truly sorry that those who wanted to come and couldn't felt hurt by this event. :(
I hope you (and others) realize that I couldn't feel one whit fonder of you if you lived down the street than I already do.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:46:43
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 9:40:04
Maybe the most suitable solution would be to offer to babblemail the epic saga to anyone who wanted to see it.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on June 7, 2005, at 11:31:13
In reply to Re: my two cents - Minnie Ha Ha, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 7:08:00
Sorry, I missed your post yesterday.
> I didn't see the women's group as having anything to do with small boards. As far as I could tell you invited everyone.
I invited all *women* so it was exclusive to a degree. And some people spoke up about that.
> Different thing altogether.
My intention was to exclude men; not because I wanted to hurt or anger them, but because sometimes women (a lot of women I know anyway) have things they don’t want to talk about around men. So it isn't different altogether, IMO, but only to the degree. The women's group was limited by sex; the smaller groups will be limited by size, because some people are uncomfortable in crowds. (Kinda like the small room thing I talked about in a previous post. As long as there's room, you're welcome. When the room is full, you have to wait for someone to leave -- or be inactive, if I remember Dr. Bob's description rightly.)
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 12:52:29
In reply to Re: my two cents » Dinah, posted by Minnie-Haha on June 7, 2005, at 11:31:13
Well, I hadn't seen it that way. But certainly you knew the intent behind your own group better than I.
But as far as the other is concerned, I'd just as soon agree to differ. I think anything else would not be terribly productive.
Posted by so on June 7, 2005, at 15:01:26
In reply to Re: values, posted by Dr. Bob on June 7, 2005, at 8:39:59
> Well, their therapist or boss still *might* be there...
>
> Bobwhat are the odds a therapist or boss would become a member and read the posts in the same privately viewable small group as compared to the chances a therapist or a boss would view a board readable by anyone with internet access?
Posted by KaraS on June 7, 2005, at 15:36:30
In reply to Re: I worded that poorly. I apologize. » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 6:11:49
> BTW, Gabbi. You're right.
>
> Posting here about the experience has taken something that felt purely positive and made it feel sad. We didn't intend or want to exclude anyone. And my efforts to make those who couldn't have come feel part of the experience have apparently just backfired.
>
> Now I just can't feel very good about it.
>
> But I learned a valuable lesson for next year.
Dinah,I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading all of the posts about the Babble meeting in Chicago. Please don't let one negative viewpoint get to you or stop you from telling the rest of us about it.
K
Posted by Minnie-Haha on June 7, 2005, at 15:37:59
In reply to Re: my two cents » Minnie-Haha, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 12:52:29
> Well, I hadn't seen it that way. But certainly you knew the intent behind your own group better than I.
Yeah, this was how I explained it to Wee Willy back in April:
"... sometimes I want the company of other women *just for socializing* -- especially if I want to talk about *girlie* things like fashion and makeup or hairstyles, or delicate or potentially embarassing "female things," if you get my drift. I don't mean to stereotype, but it's kind of like men wanting to go out for a beer with the boys...
"Also, for what it's worth, this site was NOT set up for man bashing...
"I think it might also be a refuge for women who have experienced abuse, particularly at the hands of a man or men. I think sometimes it is hard for these women to unburden themselves in front of men. Perhaps they might learn to relax and trust again, but that kind of healing takes time."
> But as far as the other is concerned, I'd just as soon agree to differ. I think anything else would not be terribly productive.Well, I don't think we're gonna change each others' minds, if that's what you mean, but maybe understand each other better and see that we both have valid points. :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 16:28:36
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:56:01
I'm sorry Dinah.
I'm used to keeping arguments going
Not so used to being diplomatic
And sensitive to other peoples pov
Used to dragging out the common ground
So as to engage.I'm sorry.
And...
Just for the record
I never said that I wished people wouldn't post about the party or anything like that. This is what I did say - down to 'thats life'.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050530/msgs/508780.html
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 18:00:08
In reply to Re: not that strong » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 16:28:36
> I'm used to keeping arguments going
> Not so used to being diplomatic
> And sensitive to other peoples povI don't understand. It appears to me that most of the discussions, or arguments you've had on admin have been about hypothetical situations or potential situations wherein people might be hurt.
But if you aren't accustomed to being diplomatic, or sensitive to the person with whom you are discussing the subject, you're likely hurting someone in reality, while arguing how not to hurt people theoretically. It seems contradictory to me.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 18:22:40
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 18:00:08
> > I'm used to keeping arguments going
> > Not so used to being diplomatic
> > And sensitive to other peoples pov
> I don't understand. It appears to me that most of the discussions, or arguments you've had on admin have been about hypothetical situations or potential situations wherein people might be hurt.Well... Yes.
But I try to look at the situation
At the best arguments from either side
And make a decision from there as to what I think.
Sometimes people think of points that I hadn't thoguht of.
I add them and think about them and weigh what I believe again.
And so for me arguing (which is sort of a technical term) is a rational process.
But emotions and how people feel etc become part of that too.
When you have to weigh costs to some and benefits to others.
The 'strength' of the feeling factors in when weighing the costs and benefits.
And... It is rational to take 'irrational' (and even non-rational) responses into account if you can predict that they are likely to occur...> But if you aren't accustomed to being diplomatic, or sensitive to the person with whom you are discussing the subject, you're likely hurting someone in reality, while arguing how not to hurt people theoretically. It seems contradictory to me.
I'm used to arguing with people who are doing that same process... We use the same process and sometimes (actually most times) come to a different result.
So then we look at the factors that we considered before making our decisions.
Sometimes there is a relevant factor that someone didn't consider and once they are made aware of it they change what they think.
Sometimes there is a flaw in one of the arguments and once that is brought to the persons attention they change what they think.In philosophy we don't much go in for 'it is all subjective' or 'different people just have different values' because it PREVENTS arguments it rules them out. There is no point arguing because people are really talking about different things.
What you need to do is agree on a backdrop first. So xxx things count as polite and xxx things count as impolite and everyone agrees and everyone agrees that politeness = good and impoliteness = bad and then what is left to argue about is whether the particular thing you are discussing counts as being polite or not. How it is similar or different to the things that were agreed on as being part of the politeness or impoliteness list or whatever.
Getting to the heart of the dispute is the point.
Drag out the common ground and find the precise point of disagreement.It doesn't work out that everyone always agrees (philosophers have disagreed with each other for centuries) but it does work in a hell of a lot of cases...
But...
I buy into that process.
I think it is a worthwhile thing to do.
We think of it as a way of getting to the truth
Because 'the truth' is what interests us.
That is what the process of argument is about.But people don't talk just to argue.
There are other considerations than 'truth'.
Maintining friends is one.
And I have to remember that my world view is rather odd really.
Thats why I alienate most people.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 18:33:05
In reply to Re: not that strong » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 18:22:40
And I find the process of argument intellectually stimulating.
I find it puzzling the role that emotions and emotional responses and rhetoric (attempts to persuade on the basis of the power of the words used rather than by rational reasons) play in the process of argument.
I find it intellectually stimulating.
And people being hurt...
People feeing hurt is an unintended consequence to be sure.
Because I am considering the consistency or inconsistency of what people are saying. How what they say they believe about something might lead to contradiction when paired with other claims that they would want to indorse.And same for me, same for me.
I get led to contradiction too.
And when you spot a contradiction then something has to give.
And that is what I do with my life
That is part of who I am
I think about stuff
And try and resolve it
And that is part of me.And I don't mean for people to take stuff personally.
I am commenting on arguments which just happen to be used by particular people.
I am commenting on inconsistent claims which just happen to be endorsed by particular people.
I don't mean it as a personal attack when I point out this stuff
And I don't take it as a personal attack when people point out this stuff for me
Because I am working towards an ideal of consistency of beliefs
(contradictory beliefs cant both be true)
And sometimes the whole issue can be reframed so contradictions can be transcended
And I love that I just love that
And I get joy and peace there
When somebody says something
And I think
p->q
~p
______
~qAnd I think INVALID
And want to help people understand...
But.
A lot of people don't give a sh*t.
Or not as much as me at any rate.
And I need to respect that.
I do.
And it is not better or worse
It is just different
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 20:00:06
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 18:33:05
> And I find the process of argument intellectually stimulating.
>
> I find it puzzling the role that emotions and emotional responses and rhetoric (attempts to persuade on the basis of the power of the words used rather than by rational reasons) play in the process of argument.
>
> I find it intellectually stimulating.
>
> And people being hurt...
> People feeing hurt is an unintended consequence to be sure.
> Because I am considering the consistency or inconsistency of what people are saying. How what they say they believe about something might lead to contradiction when paired with other claims that they would want to indorse.No Alex, frequently you are seeing an inconsistancy where there is none, and claiming "invalid" because it's something that is not understood by you. Not because it's over your head, but because it's a different way of thinking. As much as philosophy would like to concretize all forms of human expression, and understanding it cannot, and it will never discover a way to make all aspects of humanity math.
Philosophy is a a drop in the bucket of awareness, perhaps one tool to be used in one's search further understanding, but to use little but a philisophical approach in order to declare an expression of both feeling and thought "valid" or "invalid" is like reading with your eyes closed.
>
> And I don't mean for people to take stuff personally.
> I am commenting on arguments which just happen to be used by particular people.
I do understand that, and I understand (though it was one of the many reasons I strongly disliked) the "organized philosophy" approach. It's not a way in which I learn, I find actually I have to be very careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when I do come in contact with it.
I have friends who I can argue with, but that's where it stops. I know who with whom I can and cannot, what mood they are in, and whether or not they will take it personally.
Well, I guess what I'm saying is, I think there's a place for everything, but using a mental health board (of all things)as a debate board, is really something I'm uncomfortable with, unless there is an obvious okay from the other party. In many cases though I've seen people ask for a *stop* and well, some people come here to escape tension, it's not that they aren't aware, or are confused, maybe they just come here to *escape* tension.> I am commenting on inconsistent claims which just happen to be endorsed by particular people.
> I don't mean it as a personal attack when I point out this stuff
> And I don't take it as a personal attack when people point out this stuff for me
> Because I am working towards an ideal of consistency of beliefs
> (contradictory beliefs cant both be true)
> And sometimes the whole issue can be reframed so contradictions can be transcended
> And I love that I just love that
> And I get joy and peace there
> When somebody says something
> And I think
> p->q
> ~p
> ______
> ~q
>
> And I think INVALID
> And want to help people understand...
> But.
> A lot of people don't give a sh*t.
> Or not as much as me at any rate.
> And I need to respect that.
> I do.
> And it is not better or worse
> It is just different
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 20:09:23
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 20:00:06
Thanks Gabbi. I was going to say something about the assumption of inconsistency but decided I probably couldn't explain well enough to be understood or, for that matter, civilly.
You clearly have a greater familiarity with philosophy, and did a much better job of it than I could. And civilly as well!
Posted by partlycloudy on June 7, 2005, at 20:19:17
In reply to Re: not that strong » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 20:09:23
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 20:39:51
In reply to Re: not that strong » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 20:00:06
> No Alex, frequently you are seeing an inconsistancy where there is none,
frequently?
i don't think i proclaim inconsistency all that often.
i don't think i have proclaimed it in the small boards debate>and claiming "invalid" because it's something that is not understood by you.
to say that an argument is invalid is to say that it is possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. thats what invalid means. it applies to argument forms (ps and qs) rather than arguments in natural languages (ie english). it is true that there can be a problem of translation in translating arguments in natural language into their logical forms.
> As much as philosophy would like to concretize all forms of human expression, and understanding it cannot, and it will never discover a way to make all aspects of humanity math.
you think this can't be done as a matter of principle?
if the physical world, at base, is a mathematical function then why not human beings as well given that they are part of the physical world?
> Philosophy is a a drop in the bucket of awareness, perhaps one tool to be used in one's search further understanding, but to use little but a philisophical approach in order to declare an expression of both feeling and thought "valid" or "invalid" is like reading with your eyes closed.'expressions of feeling and thought' are not candidates for validity and invalidity. validity and invalidity applies to argument forms where an argument is a series of propositions (premises) offered in support of a conclusion. to say that an argument is valid is to say that if the premises are true then the conclusion must be true as well. it is to say that if one believes the premises are true then one should also believe the conclusion in order to avoid inconsistency. arguments are the only candidates for validity or invalidity. thoughts are not unless they are used to construct an argument. ideas are not unless they are used to construct an argument. sentances are not unless they are used to construct an argument.
up until the 60's it was fairly much thought that the function of language was to make truth evaluable claims about the world. philosophers fairly much assumed this. wittgenstein then talked about language games. he said that making claims about the mind independent world is one thing we do with language but we also do many other things with language. we give orders. we make requests. we ask questions. we express our experience. those aren't truth evaluable. they are not candidates for truth and falsity. though there is such a thing as speaking truely so it gets a little complicated...
the point is that there are many different things we do with language. arguing is only one of them. logic is the science of what follows from what. the logical relation between thoughts / propositions. when one is making truth evaluable claims about the world. we need not know whether the claims are true or false in order to comment on the arguments structure (whether it is valid or invalid, however). but that is only one thing we do with language.
so logic applies to a limited domain.
no problem.
that doesn't rule out an account of the other things.
it is just that they haven't been the focus of much attention up until now.
but if understanding those other functions of language is beyond us as a matter of principle then there is no point in trying
we may as well give up now.
show over folks you might as well go home.> It's not a way in which I learn, I find actually I have to be very careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when I do come in contact with it.
yes. like cbt. there is a lot of nonsense. and some good stuff. best not to throw the good stuff out with the nonsense but sometimes it becomes nonsense by association.
i left pc because my thoughts were not appreciated over there. i don't want it to come to that over here. i know i need to learn to tone it down and not get so involved and to express myself more diplomatically and to be sensitive to others and more especially to convey that sensitivity
i hope i do get the opportunity to learn that
it isn't that i use this as a debate board
it is that this is the way i look at things
this is what i think about
i can't help it
i can probably learn to express myself more appropriately etc
but i don't see me radically changing in the near future
i know it alienates me from people irl
i know it is alienating me from people here too
but i'm not just here to argue
i've joined up to philosophy chat boards
if i just wanted to argue with a bunch of philosophers i would stay there
but i am trying to learn
to think less like a machine
and more like a person
i have trouble reconciling my ideals of rational thought and precision
and my moods
my emotions
it is hard for me
im sorry
i don't mean to create tension
or to make people upset
i see that it happens
and i need to learn the middle way
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 21:11:25
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 20:39:51
im alienated from other philosophers because of my history of mental illness
because i come from a background of abuse and welfare
and im alienated from here because of the philosophy
i know ill never really fit in anywhere
and the parts should do what the parts are good at
but the trouble is that leads to internal breakdown and conflict
so there is crossover
and im supposed to encourage that
and i dont know
you can have this back now thanks
i dont like the noise it makes
it is strange how
consistency
can come of a very black world view indeed
how you can hold onto one proposition
absolutely
so long as you are prepared to revise most everything else
how logic can be reassuring
and terrifying
depending on the content you plug in to start with
and i wish there were no such thing as emotions
i wish i never had to feel anything
could just act from reason
and i didn't ask to be born
and you can have this back now
please
i dont like the noise it makes
Posted by Deneb on June 7, 2005, at 21:27:01
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 21:11:25
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 7, 2005, at 21:40:34
In reply to Gabbi is awesome:-) (nm) » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on June 7, 2005, at 20:19:17
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 7, 2005, at 21:42:18
In reply to Gabbi is awesome:-) (nm) » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on June 7, 2005, at 20:19:17
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 7, 2005, at 21:42:59
In reply to Re: not that strong, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2005, at 20:39:51
> > No Alex, frequently you are seeing an inconsistancy where there is none,
>
> frequently?
> i don't think i proclaim inconsistency all that often.
> i don't think i have proclaimed it in the small boards debateI suppose it's relative
>
> >and claiming "invalid" because it's something that is not understood by you.
>
> to say that an argument is invalid is to say that it is possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. thats what invalid means.I know what invalid means, I would not have used it in a sentance if I did not.
it applies to argument forms (ps and qs) rather than arguments in natural languages (ie english). it is true that there can be a problem of translation in translating arguments in natural language into their logical forms.Right, but that is not an aside, that's a huge component of internet communication, and certainly enough for there to be a great deal of doubt as to whether or not something is "invalid" or "contradictory"
Some things cannot always be explained, you will never truly know how an apple tastes to me.
> > As much as philosophy would like to concretize all forms of human expression, and understanding it cannot, and it will never discover a way to make all aspects of humanity math.
>
> you think this can't be done as a matter of principle?
> if the physical world, at base, is a mathematical function then why not human beings as well given that they are part of the physical world?If. I would have to ascribe to the premise in order to discuss the conclusion. I don't
>
> > Philosophy is a a drop in the bucket of awareness, perhaps one tool to be used in one's search further understanding, but to use little but a philisophical approach in order to declare an expression of both feeling and thought "valid" or "invalid" is like reading with your eyes closed.
>
> 'expressions of feeling and thought' are not candidates for validity and invalidity.But they are used in communication, communication is translated into argument.
It's the apple again.validity and invalidity applies to argument forms where an argument is a series of propositions (premises) offered in support of a conclusion. to say that an argument is valid is to say that if the premises are true then the conclusion must be true as well. it is to say that if one believes the premises are true then one should also believe the conclusion in order to avoid inconsistency. arguments are the only candidates for validity or invalidity. thoughts are not unless they are used to construct an argument. ideas are not unless they are used to construct an argument. sentances are not unless they are used to construct an argument.
I would love to see an argument constructed and communicated without thought, ideas, or feelings.
"Organized" Philosophy is very much a construct unto itself. When used right from the text I find it rather like shotput. If you aren't going into the olympics.. what application does it have?You use terms and methods that are specific to a Philisophical approach as if they are basic truths, or concepts. If I were a born again Christian, and conversed as if my truth was what everything stemmed from how palatable do you think you would find it?
>
> up until the 60's it was fairly much thought that the function of language was to make truth evaluable claims about the world. philosophers fairly much assumed this. wittgenstein then talked about language games. he said that making claims about the mind independent world is one thing we do with language but we also do many other things with language. we give orders. we make requests. we ask questions. we express our experience. those aren't truth evaluable. they are not candidates for truth and falsity. though there is such a thing as speaking truely so it gets a little complicated...That was thought by philosophers, again one tiny aspect of things, hardly universal.
I simply don't believe it is up to you to declare a considered opinion invalid, contradictory, or illogical because they are unable to communicate the whole of their argument in a way satisfactory to you.
I am sorry that this has hurt you, but you can't have it both ways, you can't declare someone inconsistant (verging on hypocritical) completely discout their argumement, or finalize things by saying "And that's that" without expecting a response.
I don't think it's your ideas that are not appreciated, it's that you don't always come across as truly valuing the opinions or feelings of others.
>
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