![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 255. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 16:46:31
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Minnie-Haha, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 16:25:55
> I find statement offensive actually.Or: 'I respond to the statement by taking offence'.
>If it's acknowledged that people can be "allowed" ; 0 to feel hurt or offended by put downs and insults, then less obvious things can be hurtful too.
Everybody responds to accusations and insults and putdowns by feeling hurt or offended or whatever.
Whereas with the 'less obvious things' people diverge on how they respond.
>It's ludicrous to me to have only one half of that particular belief system in effect.
???
One side is that if someone posts something accusing or attacking you then you can expect that they will be warned / blocked.If you post something accusing or attacking then you can expect to be warned / blocked.
If someone posts something that doesn't accuse or attack you - but you respond by feeling hurt or accused then they won't get blocked.
But on the upside... If you post something that doesn't accuse or attack someone else - but they respond by feeling hurt or accused then you won't get blocked.
Sounds fair enough to me...
> Whether others think it’s valid or not, I *do* feel put down by the behavior we were talking about, and others feel the same.It is undeniable that people do feel hurt by the behaviour. But... Some people do not feel hurt by the behaviour. People agree in feeling hurt and accused if someone posts something attacking - all people would respond in the same way. But with respect to some behaviour different people feel differently about it.
It is interesting to me that the people who don't mind it try to see what Lou is trying to do with his behaviour... The people who do mind it seem more interested in arguing that the behaviour *in itself* is offensive.
But the trouble is that if the behaviour in itself is offensive then there must be something wrong with the responses of the people who are not offended...
Is this making any sense at all??????
> The very idea of such a proposition “made” people feel this way – some even declared they would leave the community if this happened.Clearly it didn't make *everyone* feel that way. Some people don't find the very idea offensive... It doesn't seem to be anything about the idea, it seems to be about all sorts of other associations that some people have made with the idea...
>Those feelings seem to be acknowledged, and to-date no smaller boards have been created.
No. Dr Bob doesn't seem to have gotten around to it yet... But it is in the pipeline.
> > “Why hasn’t he [Dr. Bob] implemented the idea already? Do you really believe that people’s negative responses have been completely unrelated to his decision to hold off? … I personally take all this as evidence that he has shown reluctance to implement something that some people feel this strongly about. That shows me that he is reluctant to hurt people over this. Maybe he was hoping that people would come around in time… Maybe he is still hoping this... ”
Sure.
But I don't see how his reluctance to hurt has anything do do with whether there is anything intrinsically wrong with creating small boards...> > Here you acknowledge that larger boards “make” some feel uncomfortable.
Nope. I acknowldege that some people respond in that way... That that is why the very idea of them isn't intrinsically nasty - some people see them as a good thing and here is why.
> > > Feeling put down is not an inevitable result or response to the behaviour. It is about owning your emotional responses as your emotional responses. Taking responsibility for your own responses rather than blaming someone else for *making* you feel that way.Sorry.
This started to Gabbi
And ended up going to Minnie.Gabbi - I hope that made a bit of sense.
I don't really know what more to say.
Good luck to you peoples.
Hope ya don't get blocked anymore.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on May 22, 2005, at 17:42:02
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 16:46:31
> > ... Whether others think it’s valid or not, I *do* feel put down by the behavior we were talking about, and others feel the same.
>
> It is undeniable that people do feel hurt by the behaviour. But... Some people do not feel hurt by the behaviour. People agree in feeling hurt and accused if someone posts something attacking - all people would respond in the same way. But with respect to some behaviour different people feel differently about it.
>
> It is interesting to me that the people who don't mind it try to see what Lou is trying to do with his behaviour... The people who do mind it seem more interested in arguing that the behaviour *in itself* is offensive.
>
> But the trouble is that if the behaviour in itself is offensive then there must be something wrong with the responses of the people who are not offended...These last three paragraphs don't make sense to me. There was discussion here once I assume about cursing that lead to some changes. Perhaps there were some who argued what the cursers intended (or did not intend) by their cursing. Others were just offended by the behavior itself. Neither the offended or the un-offended parties were wrong. Some just found the behavior offensive and others did not. Enough were offended to finally do something about it. It seems to me that enough people here have felt offended by the behavior we're talking about to consider a policy on it. (I won't here hash out whether or not cursing is uncivil, nor will I re-hash why the kind of behavior we're discussing might be uncivil, because those who believe they are have already presented their reasons.)
> > > Here you acknowledge that larger boards “make” some feel uncomfortable.
>
> Nope. I acknowldege that some people respond in that way...OK. But either way, you don't tell those who respond by feeling uncomfortable that they should own their emotions, abandon their hope for smaller boards, and sink or swim on the larger boards.
> ... That that is why the very idea of them isn't intrinsically nasty - some people see them as a good thing and here is why.
If it isn't intrinsically nasty to consider creating smaller boards because some people respond to the larger boards by feeling uncomfortable, then I don't follow how it's intrinsically nasty for those of us who would like to curb the kind of behavior we're talking about because it offends us (makes us uncomfortable).
> > > > Feeling put down is not an inevitable result or response to the behaviour. It is about owning your emotional responses as your emotional responses. Taking responsibility for your own responses rather than blaming someone else for *making* you feel that way.
>
> Sorry.
> This started to Gabbi
> And ended up going to Minnie.OK. But since some of what you wrote was in direct response to what I wrote, I replied.
> Gabbi - I hope that made a bit of sense.
>
> I don't really know what more to say.
> Good luck to you peoples.
> Hope ya don't get blocked anymore.I hope so too.
:o
:)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 17:45:25
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 16:46:31
>
> > I find statement offensive actually.
>
> Or: 'I respond to the statement by taking offence'.Please don't. I have no desire to speak like you would. I meant what I said, and I thought it through. Taking it upon yourself to reword my thought is putting yourself in the position of educating me, I'll choose who teaches me, thanks. Aside from that, there is no meaningful difference.
If I'd said "It would be impossible for me not to be offended" then there would be a difference.>
> >If it's acknowledged that people can be "allowed" ; 0 to feel hurt or offended by put downs and insults, then less obvious things can be hurtful too.
>
> Everybody responds to accusations and insults and putdowns by feeling hurt or offended or whatever.
>
> Whereas with the 'less obvious things' people diverge on how they respond.
>
> >It's ludicrous to me to have only one half of that particular belief system in effect.
>
> ???
> One side is that if someone posts something accusing or attacking you then you can expect that they will be warned / blocked.
>
> If you post something accusing or attacking then you can expect to be warned / blocked.
>
> If someone posts something that doesn't accuse or attack you - but you respond by feeling hurt or accused then they won't get blocked.
First of all not *everyone* reacts to accusations and put downs by being hurt, not at all. What I see, is you judging what is hurtful, by what has been deemed "uncivil" that is where I'm confused. If according to you, people are permitted to be hurt by being attacked, then they can be hurt by other things, what is considred an attack is personal, not to be decided by you, or Dr. Bob's civility rules.Now, if you are embracing the popular theory that one can *choose* how to respond, then the philosophy dictates that one can choose not to feel hurt by anything. At any rate, it's a theory, undoubtedly one that will be replaced by something else in 10 years.
> But on the upside... If you post something that doesn't accuse or attack someone else - but they respond by feeling hurt or accused then you won't get blocked.
>
> Sounds fair enough to me...It sounds "fair enough" to you because you don't feel hurt or attacked by the particular behaviour. Some people find having their posts scrutinized a form of attack, and they are entitled to that, they are also entitled to ask Dr. Bob to review the civility rules, and are no less "owning their emotions" than someone who feels hurt by being called names.
>People agree in feeling hurt and accused if someone posts something attacking - all people would respond in the same way.
That's absolutely untrue..
I often get a good laugh out of being attacked.
Much *civil* behaviour can drive make me hot under the collar like nothing else, passive aggression is perfectly civil, much sarcasm also gets under the radar.But with respect to some behaviour different people feel differently about it.
>
> It is interesting to me that the people who don't mind it try to see what Lou is trying to do with his behaviour... The people who do mind it seem more interested in arguing that the behaviour *in itself* is offensive.
>
> But the trouble is that if the behaviour in itself is offensive then there must be something wrong with the responses of the people who are not offended...
>
> Is this making any sense at all??????Who decides this for you? I'm not offended by swearing.. what's wrong with me?
In that regard what are legitimate responses according to you would change from generation to generation and culture to culture.
>> Gabbi - I hope that made a bit of sense.I wasn't asking for it to be clarified. As I've said a few times to you, I'm more than familiar with the theory, and I understand it, I simply disagree with it, and not because I'm slooow.
Posted by Minnie-Haha on May 22, 2005, at 18:04:12
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 17:45:25
> ... Some people find having their posts scrutinized a form of attack, and they are entitled to that, they are also entitled to ask Dr. Bob to review the civility rules, and are no less "owning their emotions" than someone who feels hurt by being called names...
Regardless of whether or not we as a group agree on if the behavior is uncivil, I am so glad some agree that it's not uncivil to bring it up. If it's not uncivil to ask if what others post is uncivil, I don't see how it's uncivil to ask if questioning the civility of what others post is uncivil. That's all. (Boy if someone came into the middle of this with no background on the debate, I think that sentence might make their head explode!)
Minnie
;)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 18:37:52
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd?, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 22, 2005, at 18:04:12
> > ... Some people find having their posts scrutinized a form of attack, and they are entitled to that, they are also entitled to ask Dr. Bob to review the civility rules, and are no less "owning their emotions" than someone who feels hurt by being called names...
>
> Regardless of whether or not we as a group agree on if the behavior is uncivil, I am so glad some agree that it's not uncivil to bring it up. If it's not uncivil to ask if what others post is uncivil, I don't see how it's uncivil to ask if questioning the civility of what others post is uncivil. That's all. (Boy if someone came into the middle of this with no background on the debate, I think that sentence might make their head explode!)
Owww! And I didn't even come in late.Well, yeah. I understand that there have to be rules for what is commonly found offensive, and I'm glad that they are here. However I don't see how hypothetically, it would be considered *okay* or taking ownership of one's emotions if one was offended by every single thing deemed *uncivil* but somehow not taking ownership if one was offended by something not listed. Sounds like a scary majority rules concept on legitimizing feelings.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 19:37:30
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Minnie-Haha, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 18:37:52
I know my post was harsh. But honestly, I'm so sick to death of this topic, we've been over it and over it. I *do* understand the technical difference between "I find that offensive" And "I was offended" however, I've also noticed that by most people they are interpreted interchangeably, and that's the way I speak. I would never say "I responded to that by being offended" It's so *not* me.
Saying "That's offensive" is a blanket judgement, to some saying "I find that offensive" is equal to that. To me, it's not.
And I'm just fine with that.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:05:15
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Gabbi-x-2, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 16:46:31
I just don't understand why he isn't willing to compromise on that small, but very important part of making the boards visible to the public.
:((((
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:21:22
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:05:15
> I just don't understand why he isn't willing to compromise on that small, but very important part of making the boards visible to the public.
My understanding is that he is waiting for you to attempt to convince him of why that would be better...
;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:22:02
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:21:22
In that he said he might be hard to convince
(which, IMO indicates that there may be hope...)
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:29:18
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:21:22
I'm good, but apparently not that good. It's doing horrible things to my ego. It seems so *clear* to me. And to the school my son goes to. And to my therapist. And to many people here. Yet, I can't explain it well enough. I can't *be* good enough.
I was re-reading "You Can't Say You Can't Play", but I'm not sure that would do it either.
You said that you thought you understood, in one of our last exchanges. Do you really?
Sigh. I feel soooo sad.
And I'm not kidding.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:30:31
In reply to Alexandra » Gabbi-x-2, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 19:37:30
(((Gabbi)))
I think you do understand...
I know you have issues with CBT theory.
I have issues with CBT theory too...
I don't like their idea that thoughts CAUSE feelings.
IMO that is far too simplistic.
And sometimes we can't control our thoughts anymore than we can control our emotions
And not all emotions are caused by thoughts (faulty or otherwise) to start with...
And besides which I hate the whole idea of 'faulty' thinking in the first place.The way you said it was fine.
I'm sorry,
I wasn't trying to get you to talk or write that way - I was just trying to make it clear the difference betweenAccusing / Attacking behaviour -> feeling hurt / accused etc
Where the causal chain is fairly much inevitable in the sense that MOST people would feel hurt if someone posted something where they were overtly accused or attacked.
And
Behaviour -> some people respond by feeling accused / attacked / hurt
BUT:
other people do not.
Here different people seem to respond differently...
My thought is 'what do all the people who respond by feeling hurt have in common?'
And 'what do all the people who respond by not feeling hurt have in common?'A lot of the difference seems to consist in the first bunch of people thinking that their response is an inevitable response to the behaviour.
But it isn't inevitable - because other people do not respond in that way.
The second bunch of people seem to have worked out some sort of story whereby Lou is attempting to better understand the civility rules.
Maybe that is what we are all trying to do...
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:33:49
In reply to Re: Gabbi, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:30:31
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:36:10
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:29:18
I'm not sure whether I understand or not.
Really.
I am trying to though...Dare I say that I'm not too sure and it is possible that I could go either way on the issue.
I think I know what you mean...
It is hard when something seems 'obvious' to try to spell that out to people who it just doesn't seem obvious too...
I get lots of practice with that
(Just try and convince me that it is rational to believe that the external world exists!)I really do think it is worth trying to explain where you are coming from.
I hope you know enough about me to be able to trust that I try and read stuff charitably and that I'll try my hardest to understand what you are trying to say and engage with that.
Dr Bob did seem open to the idea of being persuaded that it was a bad idea.
I have sympathy with the notion that it is a bad idea.
If you want to start a thread I'll jump on board...
But...
I haven't made my mind up yet.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:36:44
In reply to Those aren't the only two choices :) (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:33:49
Ok.
What might some other choices be???
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:46:12
In reply to Re: Those aren't the only two choices :) » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:36:44
I was just saying that not everyone who feels xxx about something assumes yyy, and those who feel aaa about something assume bbb.
Let me see if I can construct this as a proof.
No, I can't.
But say, hmmm...
Many people don't curse because they find it vulgar.
I don't cursing.
I find it vulgar.
You can't prove the third statement from the first two.
Some people may have certain feelings because they assume certain things. But it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone with those same feelings assumes the same things.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:57:09
In reply to I'm sure they are multitudinous » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 20:46:12
> Many people don't curse because they find it vulgar.
> I don't cursing.
> I find it vulgar.
> You can't prove the third statement from the first two.True.
> Some people may have certain feelings because they assume certain things. But it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone with those same feelings assumes the same things.
True again.
But when people are really very upset...
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:00:25
In reply to Re: I'm sure they are multitudinous » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:57:09
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 21:01:57
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd?, posted by Minnie-Haha on May 22, 2005, at 18:04:12
> Regardless of whether or not we as a group agree on if the behavior is uncivil, I am so glad some agree that it's not uncivil to bring it up. If it's not uncivil to ask if what others post is uncivil, I don't see how it's uncivil to ask if questioning the civility of what others post is uncivil. That's all. (Boy if someone came into the middle of this with no background on the debate, I think that sentence might make their head explode!)
Actually, that is a very good sentence :-)
(Have you ever thought of doing philosophy???)I agree - it isn't uncivil to ask.
I'd just be a bit careful about saying *why* one thinks the behaviour *is* uncivil, though.
I thought that...
I thought that...You were blocked by saying that the behaviour was due either to
A the poster not caring that people were upset.
B the poster not knowing that people were upset (and thereby not stopping the behaviour).Those are claims about the *person* not the behaviour - and I thought that was why you were blocked.
I was just trying to help you understand why you were blocked.
For the sole purpose of your hopefully not being blocked again in the future.
Thats all.
Didn't want to lose you again :-)
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 21:02:37
In reply to They can still be upset for many reasons? (nm) » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:00:25
But if someone is very very very upset...
Why might that be???
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:04:25
In reply to Re: They can still be upset for many reasons? » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 21:02:37
Wouldn't it be dull if we all got upset for the same reasons?
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:07:35
In reply to Re: Dr Bob: question about being blocked or PBC'd? » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:36:10
I've run out of words. That happens sometimes.
I used my best ones in the post you responded to here.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050417/msgs/489467.html
Now I just have to curl up and cry that they weren't good enough. And know what will happen when Dr. Bob gets those boards through the pipeline. And before you argue that I'm not clairvoyant, I mean what will happen to me and how I feel.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 21:18:25
In reply to I'm afraid I really really can't » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:07:35
> I've run out of words. That happens sometimes.
(((Dinah)))
> Now I just have to curl up and cry that they weren't good enough. And know what will happen when Dr. Bob gets those boards through the pipeline. And before you argue that I'm not clairvoyant, I mean what will happen to me and how I feel.>But it is sad that we can't talk to them. I do feel sad that they don't want to talk to me or get to know me. I was thinking that the other day. And I do feel funny about reading over there. I was reading the thread about whether the 2000 board should go. And I wanted to post to it - to say 'No! Don't feel bad peoples'. But then I realised that I couldn't post to it. I could probably post a reply to it on another board. But the people from 2000 probably wouldn't read my reply even if they knew there was one. And they didn't care what I had to say about it anyway because, well, because that is partly why they post over there I suppose. Because they don't want responses from people they don't know. I don't know. But thats what I was thinking. And I do feel sad about that.
But that is it, isn't it???
I thought...
I thought that the issue had evolved from whether there should be small boards or not to whether the small boards should be publicly viewable or not.I think I could be persuaded that it would be better if only the people who posted to them could view them...
I thought you were okay with them so long as they weren't publicly viewable????
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 21:19:24
In reply to Well, doesn't that depend on the person? » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:04:25
> Wouldn't it be dull if we all got upset for the same reasons?
Well...
Depends how much you have to abstract from the differences in order to find something in common...
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 22, 2005, at 21:20:03
In reply to Re: Gabbi, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 20:30:31
> (((Gabbi)))
>
> I think you do understand...Thank you
> I know you have issues with CBT theory.
> I have issues with CBT theory too...
> I don't like their idea that thoughts CAUSE feelings.
> IMO that is far too simplistic.
> And sometimes we can't control our thoughts anymore than we can control our emotionsExactly. Though I suppose there are some Zen equivilents who can.. in the ideal like those who can transcend pain, but I don't think it's realistic, or for me, even desirable.
> The way you said it was fine.
> I'm sorry,
> I wasn't trying to get you to talk or write that way - I was just trying to make it clear the difference between
>
> Accusing / Attacking behaviour -> feeling hurt / accused etcI've been well schooled in that, and I do know the semantic difference, but as I said, most people I speak to, except those who've been in therapy, don't interpret the two any differently,long as there is and "I feel" or "I find" in front of it it's assumed it's personal, and not a generalization.
> Where the causal chain is fairly much inevitable in the sense that MOST people would feel hurt if someone posted something where they were overtly accused or attacked.
>
> And
>
> Behaviour -> some people respond by feeling accused / attacked / hurt
>
> BUT:
>
> other people do not.
>
> Here different people seem to respond differently...
>
> My thought is 'what do all the people who respond by feeling hurt have in common?'
> And 'what do all the people who respond by not feeling hurt have in common?'
>
> A lot of the difference seems to consist in the first bunch of people thinking that their response is an inevitable response to the behaviour.
>
> But it isn't inevitable - because other people do not respond in that way.Nothing is inevitable though, much of what people find *offensive* in general, and in the civility rules is societally influenced and people would be just as *offended* if society deemed the opposite to be offensive. That I find to be contradictory to "owning emotions" and that is what bothered me. The statement that somehow if you owned your emotions then this particular thing wouldn't bother you.
>
> The second bunch of people seem to have worked out some sort of story whereby Lou is attempting to better understand the civility rules.I don't think story is a good word. Some people believe that from the heart. I do. However, there have been other posters who have annoyed me, and no matter what I tried to convince myself I could not believe that they were not being rude. So I don't think it's something everyone can do. You need to believe it, otherwise it's insincere and that's no good to anyone. I think it would be more honorable to just ignore the person.
I personally simply believe in living consciously,
and that means constantly evaluating and questioning what I come in contact with.
I'll just as likely *not* be offended by the "offensive" as finding something most find acceptable to be unpalatable.Thanks for the hug
(((Alex)))
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2005, at 21:33:53
In reply to Re: I'm afraid I really really can't » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2005, at 21:18:25
> I thought...
> I thought that the issue had evolved from whether there should be small boards or not to whether the small boards should be publicly viewable or not.
>
> I think I could be persuaded that it would be better if only the people who posted to them could view them...
> I thought you were okay with them so long as they weren't publicly viewable???
>
> ?I won't object if they aren't publicly viewable. I won't join them or anything, most likely. But that's what my post to you, that I pointed out, was about. About them being publicly viewable.
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