![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 80. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 8:25:06
In reply to Proselytizing » mair, posted by beardedlady on July 25, 2002, at 7:40:52
Beardedldy,
Thank you for your interest in this discussion.
I do understand your concern about proselytising. And I would also not want proselytising, for I do not want to belong to any religion. And I am not trying to get someone to join any religion.
I beleive that there is , however, proselytising on this board. It is the total thought that there is , possibly, a great benifit to be a person that uses psychotropic drugs to , perhaps, have their depression go away.. There are posters extolling their drugs. They tell of how they take them and how they help them with their afflictions. They defend taking them on the grounds, in some cases that I have read here, that it would be better for them to aquirer tardive dysconiesia, or to aquierer an addiction to the drug then to not take the drug. They talk about their theripists, psychiatrist, hospitals,and drugs all costing a huge amount of money. They go from one drug to another in a quest to find the "magic bullet" that will cause their depression to go away. Some do not have the huge amt. of money and time requiered for this journey into psychopharmacology. Yet it is allowed to be promulgated here with the exemption to the rules for proselytising. They that advocte the taking of psychotropic drugs, in my opinion, are proselytising the drug world.
Now I am not asking for any money, and it will not cause anyone to spend humongous amounts of money to travel the 7 Gates on the Road to the Crown of Life. They will be in no danger of contracting a movement disorder, or Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome and die. They will be in no danger to gain weight or sweat profusiously at night. They will be in no danger of instatnly dieing from a heart attack. They will be in no danger of kidney failure, liver failure, or a blood disease that kills you. They will not have memory loss , tinnitus or vision anomolys.
I went to a funeral yesterday. A friend of mines wife just died of a heart attack. She had gone into depression and was given an AD. He looked up the drug and found that it caused heart atacks in the people that took the drug before it was approved. He was familiar with my advocating the outlawing of these dugs. He said to me, "Lou. I am now gong to fight those drug companys that make these concotions of death till the day that I die. "
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 9:17:52
In reply to Proselytizing » mair, posted by beardedlady on July 25, 2002, at 7:40:52
Beardedlady,
You talked a lot, previously, about your experiance with your digestive problems here. You also talked about your experiance with being held up at gunpoint. In fact, you have been in the past a very prolific poster here.
Now I never objected to your posts because they were your experiances and I believe that this board is to tell of our experiances. And I believe that all of the posts here have value. Whether they are your posts, my posts, Kiddo's posts, mair's posts. Dr. Bob's posts, Cam W's posts, IsoM's posts, Fruitcake Freddie' posts and any other posts here.
I have never advocated that anyone's post here be censored except the one's that defame people like one of your posts with CamW and Kid_A that demened Islamic people. In fact, on that post, there was the advocating of genocide.
I also objected to the posting of anti-Semitic web sites. The posters defended the posting of the anti-Semitic web site on the flimsiest grounds that since the site ridiculed jews, then it was funny and thearfore it could be posted , for as they said, they have the right to laugh.
I am only asking for equal treatment, not special treatment. I disagree with Dr. Bob on his rules here, but I respect admin. rules and I believe that if one can not abide by the rules of the admin. or that they think that the admin. rules, let's say for proselytising, are too much for them to accept, that they have the choice to find another board as Dr. Bob says. And he is correct in that respect.
Lou
Posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 9:24:20
In reply to Proselytizing Dr. Bob??, posted by mair on July 24, 2002, at 22:05:36
I usually stay out of "Lou" discussions, but the post that Mair is referring to is proseltizing pure and simple.>I know that there are a lot of people that do >not believe in the seed here. But it is the >people here that are shakeled in their >addictions and slaves to their depression that >have a right to , at least, hear about the seed >so that they can make their decision themselves >to either walk away or allow the seed to grow.
This sentence implies that the "seed" is the only way. And I don't like people telling me that Jesus is the only way any more than a particular seed.
(I start tripping over things in these discussions cause some of what I type trying to explain myself sounds so ridiculous, but hopefully my explanations are clear)
And Lou, when you're not talking about seeds or roads or crowns or horses, I find you posts to be very valuable.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 9:36:17
In reply to Re: Proselytizing Dr. Bob??, posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 9:24:20
Lini,
The overiding issue about proselytising, as it is defined on this board, is "does the poster advocate joining a particular religion such as, let's say, catholicsism or Islam?"
Now at appears to me that there are posters that want that definition expanded to include "The Road". Now I will abide by any admin. rules here, if they are expanded.
But if the Road is made to be excluded here, then so would the faith board in toto, in my opinion, for any mention of faith would be excluded or it could be deemed "proselytising".
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 9:52:37
In reply to Re: Proselytizing Dr. Bob??, posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 9:24:20
Lini,
I do not believe that the post in question here is saying that the seed is the "only way".
Now I am telling of my experiance because I have seen the results change the lives of people. I am not asking anyone to join a religion or send me money or advocate the Salvation Army or any other group, not that any groups are bad mind you.
Now if what I am telling could be of value to some, then I am asking to be allowed to finish the Road on the grounds that there may be someone that overcomes their depression and/or addiction as a result of it. So I am asking for the posters that want my experiance to be deemed "proselytising", which would end it, to allow me to finish the Road .
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 9:58:34
In reply to Lu's response eardedlay's post- part 2, posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 9:17:52
"The posters defended the posting of the anti-Semitic web site on the flimsiest grounds that since the site ridiculed jews, then it was funny and thearfore it could be posted , for as they said, they have the right to laugh."
Lou, please stop making assumptions about people being anti-semitic. I was a poster who defended Kid_A and did not say anything of this kind. Nor did anyone else for that matter.
This is extremely offensive to me.
- KK
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 10:01:12
In reply to Re: Proselytizing Dr. Bob??, posted by Lini on July 25, 2002, at 9:24:20
Lini,
There are people here that are, indeed , shakled to their addictions and slsves to their depression. Their psychiatrists have failed them, for their suffering continues right now, their drugs have failed them, for their suffering continues right now, their thrapists have failed them, for their suffering continues right now and , perhaps, since all those things have failed them, then it is those that I am advocating to go on the 7 Gates on the Road to the Crown of Life. The Road is a last resort. That is why it is not proselytising. The road is only for those tht are suffering and I made that clear at te beginning by telling about the Pearl.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 10:02:57
In reply to Lou's response to Lini's post, posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 9:36:17
Please note that it does not Have to include "faith":
'to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause'
Thank you.
- KK
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 10:17:38
In reply to Kid_A's 'anti-semitic' post » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 9:58:34
Krazy Kat,
Below is on e of the posts from that thread of yours.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020517/msgs/24271.html
Lou
Posted by mair on July 25, 2002, at 10:32:57
In reply to Lou's response to Lini's post, posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 9:36:17
" The overiding issue about proselytising, as it is defined on this board, is "does the poster advocate joining a particular religion such as, let's say, catholicsism or Islam?" "
Bob
Are you aware of having said anything which would support this most narrow definition of proselytizing? Is Lou off the hook the the rest of us would be on just because he doesn't associate his religious beliefs with a specific religion or denomination?
Mair
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 10:50:37
In reply to Definition of Proselytizing Dr. Bob, posted by mair on July 25, 2002, at 10:32:57
mair,
Yuou have aske Dr. Bob if... Lou is off the hook...
Now others here can talk of their experiances and they are not being told to stop.
The issue is trying to get people to join a particular religion, such as Zen or , let's say, the Morman Church.
I do not see anyone here "on the hook" here. Dr. Bob's rule abot wht constitutes proselytising is grossly well-defined for it is simple.
Now the experiance that I am telling here does not requierer anyone to associate themselves with a particular religion. In fact, I have stated that even athiests can travel the Road and that the Gates will open to anyone, not just members of a particular religion. When I was in the City of Peace, the Rider said to me, "He who comes to me, I will in no way cast out."
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 11:49:17
In reply to Re: Kid_A's 'anti-semitic' post » Lou Pilder » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 10:17:38
> Krazy Kat,
> Below is on e of the posts from that thread of yours.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020517/msgs/24271.html
> LouNo, Lou, that is a link to one of YOUR posts. It says:
"Krazy Kat,
I have read your post that you say that Kid_A is "so funny' in regards to his posting of a link to an anti-Semitic web site.
Could you explain why you think that it is "so funny"? It is not funny to me that the link portrys jews as "crucifiers of christ". That phrase has been used for 2000 years to foster hatred toward the jews. "All I said was "Man, Kid, you are so funny". There was much more to that site than anything "anti-semitic", and I did not see the anti-semitic comments when I went there, WHICH I pointed out later.
Are you calling me an anti-semite or suggesting that I laugh at things which are anti-semitic? Your comment suggests that to me... please respond quickly, for I feel much aligned and I am going to ask Dr. Bob to please step in, because to me, that is an offensive and dangerous assumption. It's like accusing someone of murder, when they have not committed a crime.
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 11:52:13
In reply to Re: Definition of Proselytizing Dr. Bob » mair, posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 10:50:37
It is not limited to "religion" as my definition above points out...
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 13:06:51
In reply to Re: Kid_A's 'anti-semitic' post » Lou Pilder » krazy kat » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 11:49:17
KK,
When you clicked on the link, the opening page of the anti-Semitic web site came up. It was plainly visable, with the castagation of jews prominatly depicted with dollar signs replacing the S in words. So, a word like, let's say, pass, became pa$$. And so forth. Then, reading the message in the site depicted a clear form of anti-Semitic hatred by the sites owner.
Reading further in the site revealed even a more insidious diatribe of hate includig the phrase that the jews were the crucifirers of christ. Dr. Bob told all never to post a link to an anti-Semitic site again and that sarcasm is not excuse for posting it. For someone to say that they did not see the anti-Semitism on the opening page , then beggs the question of then how did they deciede that it was so funny?
Now I am not afraid of you asking Dr. Bob to step in, for he has already flagged the post and admonishd those for their particiption in the thread that he said that sarcasm was not an excuse and to never post that type of post again.
You are attempting to distnguish a difference between being an anti-Semite and laughing at things that are anti-Semiic. That statement of yours, then to me, indicates that you did see the anti-Semitic rhetoric on the post, for you now are saying hat laughing at it is different than being one.
Now if someone laughed at seeing the horrors of nazism depicted by piles of corpses in a death camp, then I would not see any difference between laughing at it and endorsing the act. However, you may not see it that way, but that does not mean that I have to see it your way.
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 14:04:17
In reply to Re: Kid_A's 'anti-semitic' post » Lou Pilder » krazy kat » Lou Pilder » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 13:06:51
Please read the above post by Lou. He is saying that I laughed at a site Kid_A posted because of the anti-semitic rhetoric. That site, at a glance, is about an absurd politician. Having been in politics, I found it funny because of that. I stated afterwards at admin that if I missed the anti-semitic comments on it, I was sorry.
I am greatly offended by this. Please offer me some support here. I am not anti-semitic.
I can't believe this...
Someone mentioned that those of us leaving were selfish. This exemplifies why I felt I HAD to be selfish - if the site doesn't support me at all, it ends up hurting my family, too, because of what it does to me. This sort of thing cuts me to the bone. I am a tolerant and kind person, yet I have felt as if I have to prove that somehow here as of late.
Please, please show that you are capable of noting when Lou is being uncivil, Dr. Bob, since so many of us have been called so recently. I know he's been blocked before, but there's been a lot of stuff recently, i.e. the comments re: Kiddo, that have kind of been swept under the rug.
My hands are shaking after this. I know I shouldn't let this get to me...
I just don't see how I can post here at all anymore again. I've lost my ability to be humorous here, my ability to support because my "kind" of support is suddenly frowned upon.
Please help me see it differently. And please don't say "ignore his posts" because that is not a viable option for someone with severe OCD...
- KK
Posted by SandraDee on July 25, 2002, at 14:18:10
In reply to Dr. Bob please help..., posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 14:04:17
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 14:19:02
In reply to Re: Kid_A's 'anti-semitic' post » Lou Pilder » krazy kat » Lou Pilder » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 13:06:51
You have acted cruelly towards me, Lou. I honestly hope that you are a sincere person, but I must say that it seems at times as if you are not.
Please don't call people anti-semitic when you don't know them. Please don't start answering posts and then stop answering somewhere along the way, leaving a person who is potentially suffering hanging.
Please be careful with your comments about people being addicted to medications and suffering from depression because their psychiatrists have failed them. This gets into dangerous territory, as has been discussed here before. Some people might stop their medication believing that your "road" will solve their problems, will somehow cure this medical illness. You have said that you say to consult their Dr.'s first. Well, people do not read every thread, every post of your, and you do not say this everytime. Therefore, you are creating a dangerous environment for the mentally ill.
And, please, please, consider going elsewhere so this board can a sliver of a chance of getting back to its old self. I, unfortunately, don't think it will be able to recover completely, but it would have a chance if you would leave.
I realize I am overstepping the definition of Babble civility here, by asking that, but I am happy to be blocked again, just to get it out in the open. People are afraid to actually say it because they Will get blocked.
Some posters who have stayed here seem to think those of us who have questioned things on admin and (mostly :)) left, are angry and are causing a ruckus just to do so. Everyone needs to consider that we are also hurt and very, very sad that things have come to this point. Keep in mind, that this recent "war" started after we left.
Lou, you are the problem. I have been asked - is Lou the problem? Yes. Yes, you are. Again, I fear that even without you the board will not be the same, but the downfall is your doing. It is your fault.
If that does not convince you that at least one person, who initially tried to converse with you civilly, is at their wits end with you and, because of you, this board, then I don't know what will.
Please do not reply with questions - I am not going to clarify this further and probably will not have the chance to anyway.
I sincerely hope that Dr. Bob can somehow bring things back together again. I really do, so that others can have this place for support, even if I cannot.
- Krazy Kat, sad that a place that was a haven, a place to exchange information and ideas, to help each other through REALLY tough times, is no longer there for her and many others...
Posted by Greg on July 25, 2002, at 14:56:46
In reply to Dr. Bob please help..., posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 14:04:17
This is why I'm concerned...
Do me a favor, turn off your computer, take a really deep breath and go for a long walk. Don't hurt this bad if you don't have to.
You know I'm thinking about you. I'll write you when I get home.
Greg
Posted by tina on July 25, 2002, at 15:08:09
In reply to I have posted to Dr. Bob » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 14:19:02
but I fear that post will get you blocked. I'm sorry for that. I wish, along with you and I'm sure others, that Lou would 'go away' as well but I don't think that's going to happen. The act only works with an audience and unfortunately, Lou has one and so keeps performing.
I do wish you didn't get so hurt by his comments though. You are a good person and I hope, someday, babble will revert to a supportive site. I'm glad you spoke your mind and heart in your post to Lou. Sadly, I fear it will fall on deaf ears.
my best to you Kat
take care
tina
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 15:10:13
In reply to Re: Dear KK..., posted by Greg on July 25, 2002, at 14:56:46
And, Greg, this is why I can't be a part of this site anymore. I hope that some of my contributions are appreciated. Right now, it doesn't feel as if any are. :)
You were right... :(
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 15:10:21
In reply to I have posted to Dr. Bob » Lou Pilder, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 14:19:02
KK,
I am sorry that you are accusing me of calling you anti-Semitic.
If you read my posts to you, you will see that it is what you are posting that I object to. I object to posts that call the religious leaders of Israel, "hypocrites". I object to posts that offer links to anti-Semitic web sites and the posts that say that the post is funny. I object to posts that defame other religions also, such as Islam. I object to posts that you say the religious leaders of Israel, the pharisees, were attributing the works of the jesus that you are referring to , to the works of satan. I object to posts that claim that only people tha are members of christiandom can be saved.
I believe that it my duty to object to those type of posts. And I also believe that if I do not object to them, then I am endorsing them, and I do not endorse them. And Dr. Bob has already indicated that we do not need to know the person's intentions to object to them.
I am commited to giveing my support to others here by offering them an alternative to drugs to overcome their addiction and or depression. And there is an obvious attempt here to have Dr. Bob declare that what I am saying is proselytising, and thearfore , I guess, not allowed here.
Now when I was a teacher, a little boy painted a swastika on the door to my room. At the time, there was anti-Semitic harrassment directed to me by others. I turned him in to the admin. and he said that he was only being funny.
There was a hearing and the student lost and recieved the maximum discipine. He lost becaue it was rulled that reasonable people must look not a far distance ahead, but only a short distance ahead. And the student knew that I was the only jewish person in the school and should have known that his act would be construed by a reasonable person to be an act of hate.
So, KK, I consider that your posts in question , could be construed by a reasonable person to be defaming to jewish people and there are people looking at these posts that do not post here that do not and can not know you intentions. So I can not and will not let any posts here that defame any peoples go unanswered by me.
I would also like Dr. Bob to step in here on this matter. For I havn't acted cruely to anyone here, and I am astoished that anyone would raise that stone at me.
You are advocatng that I be off this board by " considering going elseware." I do not want you to go elseware, for I believe that all of us are striving for the same thing. But we all see things in a different light. But that does not mean that one has to leave that sees things differently. And I am not the cause of your afflicton and you day that my leaving, to you, would give you a chance to recover. I believe that if you continue to discuss with me , then you will have a better chance to recover.
KK, you say that I am the problem. Is this a refference to using me as a skapegoat?
Lou
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 15:13:22
In reply to Re: I agree with you Krazy Kat, posted by tina on July 25, 2002, at 15:08:09
Thanks, Tina. Sadly, I've very often agreed with you and enjoyed your posts but we've never really gotten to know each other.
I'm sure folks are tired of hearing me rage and cry and claim that I'm leaving.
If you ever want to converse, please do email me - perrofeliz@ivillage.com.
Take care. I hope you continue to find support here. :)
- K.
Posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 15:23:16
In reply to Re: I have posted to Dr. Bob » Lou Pilder » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 15:10:21
Posted by tina on July 25, 2002, at 15:25:58
In reply to Re: I agree with you Krazy Kat » tina, posted by krazy kat on July 25, 2002, at 15:13:22
Posted by IsoM on July 25, 2002, at 16:46:17
In reply to Re: I have posted to Dr. Bob » Lou Pilder » krazy kat , posted by Lou Pilder on July 25, 2002, at 15:10:21
Lou, could you clarify what you mean about your comment "that all of us are striving for the same thing"? Could you clarify for us why you wrote KK that you "do not want you to go elseware" but you offer her no support other than
your "experiences"? If you do not want her to go elsewhere & you do not support her choice of helping herself through the use of medication, how would you help her? How would you support her? Is it by KK choosing to experience what you experienced? (Notice I carefully didn't say that you had told anyone they had to choose your "road"?) Now what if she doesn't want to experience "healing" through the same experiences as you have had? Are you prepared to offer encouragement to her despite making a different choice that you don't agree with? Or do you propose to either ignore her, or instead find ways of subtly maligning her? If I wrote about my experiences I've had with medications, some bad, some excellent, & how if a person was to experience these same things, especially the good effects from the good meds, it, too, could help them overcome their depression & their need for believing that only faith & religious experiences could overcome their problems. That doesn't mean that religious experiences aren't a good thing to have. It doesn't mean that being spiritually minded can do a person harm. But by finding the right medication, they could lead a fulfilling life without using their religious experiences as a crutch, thinking that it was the only avenue of emotional & mental salvation. They could see what true spirituality is without the need to eschew all medications. It could provide an alternative to those who may think that if they can't feel better through spiritual means, that somehow they're at fault & not thoroughly confessing their sinful nature & opening themselves to spiritual healing. Could you clarify why you "object to posts that claim that only people tha are members of christiandom can be saved" but we can't object to why you claim that those who are depressed & haven't been helped by medications can only be truly helped by turning (or following or experiencing) what you've experienced? Can you clarify why you "believe that it my duty to object to those type of posts. And I also believe that if I do not object to them, then I am endorsing them, and I do not endorse them" but that if we object to similar posts of yours that claim that medications cannot completely help anyone without causing all sorts of horrible side effects & "millions of deaths" (your quote) that we're using you as a scapegoat? Are you saying that thousands of well-meaning & trained scientists & doctors who have worked for many, many years to find methods of treating & helping people have not done so out of the goodness of their heart but ONLY with profit in mind? Are you saying you question the intentions of all these people & that by experiencing what you've experienced they could've saved themselves a lot of time & money, especially if their intentions were good? Do you mean to say that any one who works in conjunction with any pharmaceutical company, or any hospital, or is a doctor, or nurse, or other health practionar who uses psychotropic medications for their patients are doing so to their harm? Why have you been so focused on undermining the sincere efforts of others that have posted on PB about the benefits of medications that have helped them AND that others have asked about? Are you questioning the improvements that others have felt with certain medications as wrong & instead discourage those who have felt better by telling them that they, too, will suffer the consequences & side effects of these drugs without cheering on & supporting the improvement they've felt. How can you possibly think that by telling them they're going to suffer harm long term & so should seek alternative methods through the similar religious experiences that you've had, & that still have not been completely explained (& few, if any, seem interested to hear it completely explained) that you are supporting & encouraging them? Could you clarify for every one reading how you possibly could think that posting your experiences, off & on, over a period of 7 months, picking up & retelling many of the same experiences, posting innumerable complaints over what has been perceived by you as slanderous posts, objecting to the choice of words, or paths others have mentioned, & quibbling about other, mostly minor, details has been supportive or encouraging to all, or for that matter, any one else? Can you clarify for us who are curious why other sites banned you & why your family & friends left you? What reasons did they give you, if you wish to share it? No pressure to answer that. Could you clarify for us know why something so wonderful as you have experienced had such an effect as being so forsaken by so many other people? Could you clarify why this experience that made you a better, more understanding person wasn’t evident to others? Could they not see your light shine & give glory to God & want these wonderful things for themselves? Could you explain why your family & friends didn't embrace your experiences & rejoice with you if they cared about you & loved you? Couldn’t they see that even if these changes weren’t that evident to them spiritually, that there was also more to it than simply a spiritual side? That they, too, would benefit physically & financially in the long term too? What possibly could’ve proved a stumbling block for ALL of them not to rejoice with you & wish to share your joy? Why has it been that your family, friends, & people from other boards you were banned from all felt the same way? Strangely, here in the PB boards, no one has taken up your experiences & joined in with you. I wonder what it is that we don’t see that you seem to see so clearly. And too, I wonder what you don’t see that we are seeing.
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